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Post by hawks27 on May 13, 2021 16:26:23 GMT -6
I'd do that, they wanna get younger so send them a former 8th overall pick in Boqvist in a package. They have a franchise lefty Swede to pair him with. I've mentioned a few times this season but I'd try and get big Ristolainen as well. I do like the ideas. My questions are simple. What is really the orgs plan? If it is to rebuild and do it mostly from within, then 25 year old guys may not be the way. Another thing is for sure, if they keep JC and his stupid systems, they’ll never ever ever win with that shit. Even he has to know this. If Stan was any type of hickey guy, he’d tell him to cut that shit out and play some real gawd dam hockey. But I like the ideas, I’m just not sure if it’s worth talking about it stans plan is to gut this thing any further!!! ^ That's for sure, get back to "normal" hockey strategy and start playing to win, not keep experimenting through the whole season with all the line up combos, etc. |
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Post by hawks27 on May 13, 2021 16:41:46 GMT -6
Zadorov seemed decent for the start of the season, but seemed to drop off as the year went on. Odd thing in a contract year for him. Dmen aren't used top chasing wings out to the blue line. Stupid "system", and it makes things tougher for the forwards too. Seems like JC is trying to reinvent the wheel. ......And that wheel would be a square-type "wheel." |
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Post by BigT on May 13, 2021 18:47:40 GMT -6
Big T. I was too impatient with Debrincat, obviously. He really made some adjustments over the summer. Perhaps he was dealing with an ailment last year. I am glad he turned the corner. He was the team's best player for much of the year. We really never know what is going on with these players physically or emotionally. Dach was clearly not ready to play when he returned early. My guess is that Strome was dealing with something. We know Kane was as well (and my guess is that the nagging injury impacted his ability to shoot the puck). Things were better this year. They should continue to get better next year, especially if Toews returns. But the team is still at least two years away from the post-season. When half the roster consists of first and second year players, the chances of post-season are miniscule. ---- mvr That’s why we love ya MVR! Unfortunately, I still don’t see the team getting much better, just like the last 4 years. One player goes out, and a new player comes in that’s exactly as good as the guy he’s replacing. This thing will get much worse with Stan having no one to answer to!!! |
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Post by BigT on May 13, 2021 19:30:05 GMT -6
I do like the ideas. My questions are simple. What is really the orgs plan? If it is to rebuild and do it mostly from within, then 25 year old guys may not be the way. Another thing is for sure, if they keep JC and his stupid systems, they’ll never ever ever win with that shit. Even he has to know this. If Stan was any type of hickey guy, he’d tell him to cut that shit out and play some real gawd dam hockey. But I like the ideas, I’m just not sure if it’s worth talking about it stans plan is to gut this thing any further!!! ^ That's for sure, get back to "normal" hockey strategy and start playing to win, not keep experimenting through the whole season with all the line up combos, etc. As long as the big square wheel in the sky keeps on turning, they’ll keep on slowly moving forward!!! |
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Post by mvr on May 14, 2021 5:22:31 GMT -6
The kind of trade I am thinking of would be a piece such as Nolan Patrick.
It looks like the Flyers won't be able to protect him. They have too many forwards, and Patrick has been a huge disappointment so far (and has been dealing with health issues).
I believe he still has potential and would try to poach him before the expansion draft. He is a better option to protect than who the Hawks would be adding to their list right now (ie Nylander, Gaudette, Strome, Kampf etc).
Offer the Flyers a third/fourth round pick. Perhaps dangle Zadorov as part of a larger deal.
Patrick has not established himself yet. But in a different system with a younger roster and less competition, he might still get there.
Joe Murphy took several years to reach his potential. He was a first overall bust in Detroit.
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Post by BigT on May 14, 2021 6:41:59 GMT -6
The kind of trade I am thinking of would be a piece such as Nolan Patrick. It looks like the Flyers won't be able to protect him. They have too many forwards, and Patrick has been a huge disappointment so far (and has been dealing with health issues). I believe he still has potential and would try to poach him before the expansion draft. He is a better option to protect than who the Hawks would be adding to their list right now (ie Nylander, Gaudette, Strome, Kampf etc). Offer the Flyers a third/fourth round pick. Perhaps dangle Zadorov as part of a larger deal. Patrick has not established himself yet. But in a different system with a younger roster and less competition, he might still get there. Joe Murphy took several years to reach his potential. He was a first overall bust in Detroit. This is a better way to go if you want to rebuild. I also think the 25 year old Reinhart who just got 25 goals on a horrible team is a guy I’d target. He’s got grit and fits the mold of Kubalik, Dcat and all the 23-26 year old molds that we currently have. But what you’ve proposed is a step in the right direction. It seems Bowman goes after 23-25 year old failed first rounders. Why not get them a bit younger to see if they’ve got anything? I think Stan gets too hooked on ideas and stays the course for too long. First it was drafting primarily NCAA players, then it was primarily drafting smaller US kids. Now he’s trading for nothing but failed first rounders. I mean, how about just trade for a player you need. Even if they were a 5th rounder. As long as their established. Patrick may not be the answer, but it’s a step in a better direction!!! |
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Post by hsbob on May 14, 2021 8:44:02 GMT -6
I thought the Hawks already announced that Toews will return for next season? I’ll try and find the link!!! Even if Toews does return is the franchise going to become a Cup contender? Answer: No! The value of Toews returning is that he plays well and sets himself up for a trade along with Kane, if both of them agree to be traded. Keeping both of them along with the rest of the squad, or what they will have after trading some guy for another clone will accomplish nothing. They need to rebuild without Kane and Toews. Even then, there will be many holes and questions. They cannot win a Cup with Toews and Kane around. But, they might be able to scratch around for a playoff spot like they did this year. But, is that what the franchise really wants? Toews and Kane had career seasons just two years ago and D-Cat had 41..........the team was still two over so your point is well taken. Getting JT back healthy does bring the possibility of a trade back into consideration and if that's the direction of the team and the player,I still believe the Jets would be in on the possibility of that trade. The still haven't re-signed Stastny for some reason and he was making 6.5M,retian enough money to get one of the Jets' #1's or #2's or both.....the Jets have all their top picks the next three drafts. Maybe givin' CC the boot,trading Saad and watching Seabs and Shaw retire gave the FO enough 'sack' to move one or two of the remaining cup winners. |
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Post by jacksalmon on May 14, 2021 9:28:20 GMT -6
Even if Toews does return is the franchise going to become a Cup contender? Answer: No! The value of Toews returning is that he plays well and sets himself up for a trade along with Kane, if both of them agree to be traded. Keeping both of them along with the rest of the squad, or what they will have after trading some guy for another clone will accomplish nothing. They need to rebuild without Kane and Toews. Even then, there will be many holes and questions. They cannot win a Cup with Toews and Kane around. But, they might be able to scratch around for a playoff spot like they did this year. But, is that what the franchise really wants? Whoa whoa whoa. Did you not hear JC’s latest comments? He said in a very recent Athletic interview that his “system is fine” and the Hawks will be an “Elite” team. So, I hope he’s not talking about in 7 years from now. But that’s some big words to back up!!! Even if his system was fine, he does not have the personnel to play it. 50 shots from a depleted Dallas team the last game should be evidence enough. Yeah, it was a game that meant nothing some will say. But, this team was consistently outshot this season and also played most of their games in their own end without sufficient time in the other team's end to slow down the onslaught of shots and score a few themselves. |
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Post by jacksalmon on May 14, 2021 9:38:55 GMT -6
Even if Toews does return is the franchise going to become a Cup contender? Answer: No! The value of Toews returning is that he plays well and sets himself up for a trade along with Kane, if both of them agree to be traded. Keeping both of them along with the rest of the squad, or what they will have after trading some guy for another clone will accomplish nothing. They need to rebuild without Kane and Toews. Even then, there will be many holes and questions. They cannot win a Cup with Toews and Kane around. But, they might be able to scratch around for a playoff spot like they did this year. But, is that what the franchise really wants? Toews and Kane had career seasons just two years ago and D-Cat had 41..........the team was still two over so your point is well taken. Getting JT back healthy does bring the possibility of a trade back into consideration and if that's the direction of the team and the player,I still believe the Jets would be in on the possibility of that trade. The still haven't re-signed Stastny for some reason and he was making 6.5M,retian enough money to get one of the Jets' #1's or #2's or both.....the Jets have all their top picks the next three drafts. Maybe givin' CC the boot,trading Saad and watching Seabs and Shaw retire gave the FO enough 'sack' to move one or two of the remaining cup winners. Like it or not, this team must trade Toews and Kane, if it wants to improve its overall performance. Adding Toews to this year's team might have pushed them past Nashville, but not much more than that. I hardly think that would be sufficient progress in regaining excellence as T&K get older. They must be traded for some younger players who will most likely never perform like T&K, but with more than two of them in return, they could make a difference. Of course, there is that other problem of whether they would accept trades. But, given the choice of playing on a winning team; or sticking around to do the last dance on the Titanic, it seems that most competitive athletes would choose the former. I can only assume they get no cut of the jersey and t-shirt sales. |
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Post by mvr on May 14, 2021 10:50:16 GMT -6
The culture of an organization depends largely on the veteran players.
A coaching staff can only do so much.
Without Mark Messier and Kevin Lowe reigning them in and encouraging them to focus, it is likely that Adam Graves and Joe Murphy would never have developed into star players. The culture these young player came from in Detroit was directionless and largely destructive (led by partiers Kocur, Probert, Klima etc).
Aucoin and Cullimore helped Keith and Seabrook in their early days.
No draft picks or prospects can replace the leadership guys like Toews, Kane and Keith add to this team. Keep them all, and add a couple more winning veterans if you can.
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Post by BigT on May 14, 2021 14:42:24 GMT -6
The culture of an organization depends largely on the veteran players. A coaching staff can only do so much. Without Mark Messier and Kevin Lowe reigning them in and encouraging them to focus, it is likely that Adam Graves and Joe Murphy would never have developed into star players. The culture these young player came from in Detroit was directionless and largely destructive (led by partiers Kocur, Probert, Klima etc). Aucoin and Cullimore helped Keith and Seabrook in their early days. No draft picks or prospects can replace the leadership guys like Toews, Kane and Keith add to this team. Keep them all, and add a couple more winning veterans if you can. I see what you’re saying. But can’t we just get another Aucoin or Cullimore? Would t that be better coupled with serious young talent? We don’t really have much serious young talent. And if Dach can’t do much next year, he’s really not serious talent. And besides Dach, who else is there that’s real good young talent? And I don’t mean a guy in the mid 20s. I mean the 18-21 year olds. The Hawks really don’t have much if any. So this Hawks team needs top end talent. Let’s just face it. It’s time to rebuild from the bottom up!!! |
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Post by jacksalmon on May 14, 2021 17:39:35 GMT -6
The culture of an organization depends largely on the veteran players. A coaching staff can only do so much. Without Mark Messier and Kevin Lowe reigning them in and encouraging them to focus, it is likely that Adam Graves and Joe Murphy would never have developed into star players. The culture these young player came from in Detroit was directionless and largely destructive (led by partiers Kocur, Probert, Klima etc). Aucoin and Cullimore helped Keith and Seabrook in their early days. No draft picks or prospects can replace the leadership guys like Toews, Kane and Keith add to this team. Keep them all, and add a couple more winning veterans if you can. So how does great leadership lead guys who are low on the talent totem pole? Someone can put out 175%, but if he ain't got it, it ain't gonna be worthwhile. Why didn't TK&K lead the Hawks a year, or two ago, to the Cup finals? Because they didn't have enough talent and the same is true now and will be in the future. If they had enough talent, they would not have been outshot most games this past season with most of the games being played in their own end because they couldn't keep the puck in the opponent's end of the ice for more than 15 or 20 seconds two or three times a period. |
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Post by T-man2010 on May 14, 2021 20:48:31 GMT -6
The culture of an organization depends largely on the veteran players. A coaching staff can only do so much. Without Mark Messier and Kevin Lowe reigning them in and encouraging them to focus, it is likely that Adam Graves and Joe Murphy would never have developed into star players. The culture these young player came from in Detroit was directionless and largely destructive (led by partiers Kocur, Probert, Klima etc). Aucoin and Cullimore helped Keith and Seabrook in their early days.
No draft picks or prospects can replace the leadership guys like Toews, Kane and Keith add to this team. Keep them all, and add a couple more winning veterans if you can. Keith, Seabrook, Hammer and Buff were taught by Trent Yawney after they were drafted at Norfolk and was their first coach with the Hawks also. It's too bad he's with the Kings now. Would be better than Brookbank. |
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Post by Tater on May 15, 2021 1:13:31 GMT -6
Keith, Seabrook, Hammer and Buff were taught by Trent Yawney after they were drafted at Norfolk and was their first coach with the Hawks also. It's too bad he's with the Kings now. Would be better than Brookbank. I forgot what happened to him, why did he leave? |
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Post by galaxytrash on May 15, 2021 1:19:13 GMT -6
Keith, Seabrook, Hammer and Buff were taught by Trent Yawney after they were drafted at Norfolk and was their first coach with the Hawks also. It's too bad he's with the Kings now. Would be better than Brookbank. I forgot what happened to him, why did he leave? He was fired as head coach in '06 and replaced by savard. |
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Post by Tater on May 15, 2021 1:32:17 GMT -6
He was fired as head coach in '06 and replaced by savard. DOH! How could I forget that?  |
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Post by galaxytrash on May 15, 2021 4:46:39 GMT -6
He was fired as head coach in '06 and replaced by savard. DOH! How could I forget that? like pretty much everything, i had to google it. i knew we fired him but that was about all i was sure of. |
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Post by mvr on May 15, 2021 6:46:36 GMT -6
Yawney was a good development coach.
But players do spend much more time together with each other outside the rink than with the coaching staff. Coaches teach on-ice strategies and techniques.
Veterans teach kids how to adjust to the pro lifestyle away from the rink. If your best players hang out at strip clubs sniffing the lines, wolfing down the chicken wings and pounding back the tequila, this is what the kids learn as well.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with that lifestyle for most of us.... but for a hockey player, this kind of culture does present a distraction to development. There is a sense of balance required.
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Post by mvr on May 15, 2021 6:58:01 GMT -6
Who are the young players living with right now? What are they doing in their free time away from the rink? Who is guiding their behaviour?
So many teams "blow it up" and then try to rebuild. The strategy always never works until the general manager brings in proven veteran players to help the coaches.
The Hawks have good ones here already (but perhaps not enough of them). It is too bad Seabrook and Shaw and Crawford are no longer here to help right the ship.
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Post by T-man2010 on May 15, 2021 7:12:22 GMT -6
Who are the young players living with right now? What are they doing in their free time away from the rink? Who is guiding their behaviour? So many teams "blow it up" and then try to rebuild. The strategy always never works until the general manager brings in proven veteran players to help the coaches. The Hawks have good ones here already (but perhaps not enough of them). It is too bad Seabrook and Shaw and Crawford are no longer here to help right the ship. Dach lives with Seabs and family. Not sure about any others. Now remember when Kaner was out partying with Sharp and Madden when he was 18 in Vancouver. Riding in limos with "young ladies" while he was shirtless? Yes veterans teaching the kids how to adjust to pro-life. I think that's when Kaners mom moved in with him to straighten him out. |
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Post by mvr on May 15, 2021 7:13:33 GMT -6
Do the coaches tell the kids at 3 am to turn off the Minecraft or Civilization 6 and go to bed? Who sets the example?
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Post by mvr on May 15, 2021 7:24:37 GMT -6
We all remember the Madden story because it was unusual to see a player that age having so much fun. Was Madden out there partying every night? I doubt it. My guess on most nights is he helped reign the boys in.
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Post by hsbob on May 15, 2021 7:45:13 GMT -6
Who are the young players living with right now? What are they doing in their free time away from the rink? Who is guiding their behaviour? So many teams "blow it up" and then try to rebuild. The strategy always never works until the general manager brings in proven veteran players to help the coaches. The Hawks have good ones here already (but perhaps not enough of them). It is too bad Seabrook and Shaw and Crawford are no longer here to help right the ship. Dach lives with Seabs and family. Not sure about any others. Now remember when Kaner was out partying with Sharp and Madden when he was 18 in Vancouver. Riding in limos with "young ladies" while he was shirtless? Yes veterans teaching the kids how to adjust to pro-life. I think that's when Kaners mom moved in with him to straighten him out. We can also see cliques develop between the kids and the vets like we probably saw here a few years back. The vets go home to the wife and kids and the youngster go out. |
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Post by vadarx on May 15, 2021 7:50:43 GMT -6
Who are the young players living with right now? What are they doing in their free time away from the rink? Who is guiding their behaviour? So many teams "blow it up" and then try to rebuild. The strategy always never works until the general manager brings in proven veteran players to help the coaches. The Hawks have good ones here already (but perhaps not enough of them). It is too bad Seabrook and Shaw and Crawford are no longer here to help right the ship. Dach lives with Seabs and family. Not sure about any others. Now remember when Kaner was out partying with Sharp and Madden when he was 18 in Vancouver. Riding in limos with "young ladies" while he was shirtless? Yes veterans teaching the kids how to adjust to pro-life. I think that's when Kaners mom moved in with him to straighten him out. guess she should've stayed moved in with him for another 5-6 years... |
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Post by Tater on May 15, 2021 10:51:24 GMT -6
Who are the young players living with right now? What are they doing in their free time away from the rink? Who is guiding their behaviour? So many teams "blow it up" and then try to rebuild. The strategy always never works until the general manager brings in proven veteran players to help the coaches. The Hawks have good ones here already (but perhaps not enough of them). It is too bad Seabrook and Shaw and Crawford are no longer here to help right the ship. Dach lives with Seabs and family. Not sure about any others. Now remember when Kaner was out partying with Sharp and Madden when he was 18 in Vancouver. Riding in limos with "young ladies" while he was shirtless? Yes veterans teaching the kids how to adjust to pro-life. I think that's when Kaners mom moved in with him to straighten him out.
Bo does (or did) live with the Cat.
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Post by T-man2010 on May 15, 2021 11:05:39 GMT -6
Dach lives with Seabs and family. Not sure about any others. Now remember when Kaner was out partying with Sharp and Madden when he was 18 in Vancouver. Riding in limos with "young ladies" while he was shirtless? Yes veterans teaching the kids how to adjust to pro-life. I think that's when Kaners mom moved in with him to straighten him out.
Bo does (or did) live with the Cat.
I remember that Cat and Strome lived together during last season. |
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Post by BigT on May 15, 2021 11:09:38 GMT -6
Do the coaches tell the kids at 3 am to turn off the Minecraft or Civilization 6 and go to bed? Who sets the example? They do. But they know the rules are broken. Guys in the NHL love to party. They’re out night after night. Kane has grown up and no longer chases tail around like a lost boned up puppy. I know a few that play or have played in the NHL. And if you could listen to the stories you’d be shocked how they still perform some nights. I’m not saying all of them do it to excess, but a large part do. Probably 70-80%. It’s a team game and most “teams” go out as teams. Just like our Hawks did. The leadership stuff is great, but we can’t over rate it. Listen to Aucoin on Spittin Chickletts. He talks about his time in Chicago and how they knew they sucked but the made sure they had a great time at night. Especially with him nearing the end of his career. He also went on to say how they’d take the kids out, but tried to teach them to be home at reasonable times. And it didn’t always work out that way. Hence what Kane went through. And Kane also had the nick name around the league as Patrick Co-Kane. My point ...... if they want to be great, they will. If they wanna party and f*** it up. They will. A lot do. Daigle was one. A good looking kid that could land all the women, and he did. No amount of leadership was gonna stop him from plowin Pam Anderson. He did it cuz he could!!! |
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Post by mvr on May 15, 2021 12:18:57 GMT -6
Could it be possible --- in fact might it not be likely that a big reason why the young Hawks players exceeded expectations this year is largely because they had little else to do but play hockey?
Partying to excess could not really happen during COVID ... at least not to the degree it usually would. I am certain some of the boys managed to sneak in the odd floozy to their hotel rooms on the road trips. But clearly it would have been more of a challenge.
Phil Esposito wrote about the partying of the Bruins during the early 1970s. He figures it cost them at least one cup but perhaps more.
If a team has older married players, they are not out as often, nor do they have the stamina. They do set the tone. Murphy wrote about Mark Messier and how his glare in the dressing room intimidated the younger players - compelling them to fall in line and listen to the coaching staff.
I am certain none of the young kids wants to get on the bad side of Duncan Keith or Jonathan Toews.
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Post by BigT on May 15, 2021 15:17:42 GMT -6
Could it be possible --- in fact might it not be likely that a big reason why the young Hawks players exceeded expectations this year is largely because they had little else to do but play hockey? Partying to excess could not really happen during COVID ... at least not to the degree it usually would. I am certain some of the boys managed to sneak in the odd floozy to their hotel rooms on the road trips. But clearly it would have been more of a challenge. Phil Esposito wrote about the partying of the Bruins during the early 1970s. He figures it cost them at least one cup but perhaps more. If a team has older married players, they are not out as often, nor do they have the stamina. They do set the tone. Murphy wrote about Mark Messier and how his glare in the dressing room intimidated the younger players - compelling them to fall in line and listen to the coaching staff. I am certain none of the young kids wants to get on the bad side of Duncan Keith or Jonathan Toews. You could be right, especially about the Covid and being stuck inside. But don’t fool yourself, I’m sure the vets still go out on the road. So I believe there’s a mix that needs to be found. Cant expect these young hyper horned up guys that have millions of bucks and are in incredible shape to not go out to have drinks and pick up women. Cant blame em either. There’s very few Crosby’s and McDavids out there that take the game unbelievably serious. At the end of the day, you need really talented players. I don’t see that here. And I’d bet the farm that JC screws it up again and goes back to putting Toews, Kane, and Dcat all on different lines looking for this unicorn of a mixture. It didn’t work before and it won’t work again. Many guys will take a step back, and the team won’t move forward again!!! |
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Post by hsbob on May 16, 2021 7:46:41 GMT -6
Bo does (or did) live with the Cat.
I remember that Cat and Strome lived together during last season. JC didn't separate them there too? |
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