30
|
|
Post by hsbob on Oct 31, 2021 10:38:51 GMT -6
Vincent is seen as a hero but is he. Beach went to him so I would think they would have kept in touch so Vincent would have known nothing was done. In a situation like this who knew would have been on a need to know basis. Who would need to know more than all the people in that room. The people in the room did not agree to keep it under raps forever but until the end of the playoffs. After the playoffs if those individuals took action they would still be employed. This story did not just affect Kyle Beach and Brad Aldrich but the 23 man roster, the Black Aces, innocent coaches, trainers, equipment personnel and stadium employees and their rights deserved to be also taken under consideration. If this story broke in the midst of the payoffs it would have become a circus going over and over the same questions. Toews and Kane just made statements and instead of believing them perople are accusing them of lying. People are saying without proof that the players had to know. There are many instances of woman being abused by their spouse and only discovered after their violent death. Beach earned a reputation for being a tough player so he is not going to come into a dressing room or stand on top of the United Center proudly saying I GOT A BLOW JOB FROM ALDRICH. Like the Blackhawks he was going to hide it. I said the same. The guy who's so indignant 11 years later was the the guy the victim trusted to confide in,the ONLY guy with a first hand account and on top of it all,a former police officer who should know above everyone else how to deal with such serious allegations of felonious behavior. He didn't go to the cops OR HR,even after the meeting he now says angered him so much. As LORD also pointed out,the mental skills coach Gary who's trained for this exact type of situation reportedly talked to the victim and also avoided the police and HR. You know I'm a SB critic and I'm not crazy about him reportedly saying it was McD and Q who wanted to concentrate on hockey instead of the allegations but I don't know what SB could have done after his boss told him to do his job and he'd handle it either. |
|
|
|
Post by jacksalmon on Oct 31, 2021 12:09:07 GMT -6
Vincent is seen as a hero but is he. Beach went to him so I would think they would have kept in touch so Vincent would have known nothing was done. In a situation like this who knew would have been on a need to know basis. Who would need to know more than all the people in that room. The people in the room did not agree to keep it under raps forever but until the end of the playoffs. After the playoffs if those individuals took action they would still be employed. This story did not just affect Kyle Beach and Brad Aldrich but the 23 man roster, the Black Aces, innocent coaches, trainers, equipment personnel and stadium employees and their rights deserved to be also taken under consideration. If this story broke in the midst of the payoffs it would have become a circus going over and over the same questions. Toews and Kane just made statements and instead of believing them perople are accusing them of lying. People are saying without proof that the players had to know. There are many instances of woman being abused by their spouse and only discovered after their violent death. Beach earned a reputation for being a tough player so he is not going to come into a dressing room or stand on top of the United Center proudly saying I GOT A BLOW JOB FROM ALDRICH. Like the Blackhawks he was going to hide it. I said the same. The guy who's so indignant 11 years later was the the guy the victim trusted to confide in,the ONLY guy with a first hand account and on top of it all,a former police officer who should know above everyone else how to deal with such serious allegations of felonious behavior. He didn't go to the cops OR HR,even after the meeting he now says angered him so much. As LORD also pointed out,the mental skills coach Gary who's trained for this exact type of situation reportedly talked to the victim and also avoided the police and HR. You know I'm a SB critic and I'm not crazy about him reportedly saying it was McD and Q who wanted to concentrate on hockey instead of the allegations but I don't know what SB could have done after his boss told him to do his job and he'd handle it either. Again, I only know what I read. I thought I read that the Hawks eventually in the summer of 2010 forced Aldrich to resign. I assume that was done as a result of an assessment of the allegations. Did they force Aldrich to resign; or I am mistaken about that? If they did get rid of him, then there was no need to do any additional investigating. He was gone and the team was rid of him and his behavior. But, it is not appropriate to simply pass him and his predatory instincts on to other victims without having law enforcement take a look. Not asking the cops to look into the allegations to see if a criminal charge was appropriate was the major failing, if it is true that they did force him to resign because of the Beach allegations. |
|
|
|
Post by T-man2010 on Oct 31, 2021 13:15:11 GMT -6
I said the same. The guy who's so indignant 11 years later was the the guy the victim trusted to confide in,the ONLY guy with a first hand account and on top of it all,a former police officer who should know above everyone else how to deal with such serious allegations of felonious behavior. He didn't go to the cops OR HR,even after the meeting he now says angered him so much. As LORD also pointed out,the mental skills coach Gary who's trained for this exact type of situation reportedly talked to the victim and also avoided the police and HR. You know I'm a SB critic and I'm not crazy about him reportedly saying it was McD and Q who wanted to concentrate on hockey instead of the allegations but I don't know what SB could have done after his boss told him to do his job and he'd handle it either. Again, I only know what I read. I thought I read that the Hawks eventually in the summer of 2010 forced Aldrich to resign. I assume that was done as a result of an assessment of the allegations. Did they force Aldrich to resign; or I am mistaken about that? If they did get rid of him, then there was no need to do any additional investigating. He was gone and the team was rid of him and his behavior. But, it is not appropriate to simply pass him and his predatory instincts on to other victims without having law enforcement take a look. Not asking the cops to look into the allegations to see if a criminal charge was appropriate was the major failing, if it is true that they did force him to resign because of the Beach allegations. Again I'll ask you, then why didn't Beach himself go to the police? Or his parents? Your saying he only told the one guy what happened and didn't tell his parents what happened? I find that hard to believe. If this had gone to the police and an investigation was done then that would have opened up Beach's life up to that point for scrutiny by attorny's. Again none of this is the Hawks responsibility by law. Incident occured between 2 adults and not just one time. They went out at least 2 times together. |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Oct 31, 2021 21:10:26 GMT -6
There are a fuckton of levels to this, but If I had to go through everyone I knew who was at least peripherally attached to this, I'd end up writing a novel. Ain't nobody got time for that!  I'm also trying to stick as hard to the facts that were disseminated in the report as possible, and my thoughts and feelings I know about it based on my own experiences and info I've gathered in life (i.e. learning stuff via osmosis through my wife), and I've tried to be as clear as possible when I'm stating something that's opinion or stating something that I'm guessing about, rather than painting in a broad brush, or at least explaining my take on something and trying to be dispassionate as much as I can. Although, it's hard to be dispassionate about what Gary did. I understand you used Hossa as an example, but I thought it was a good one for an example because, much like Mikita, nothing much has been said about him that is bad outside the rink (not as bad as Bobby Hull, anyway). So if something came out where Hossa was antagonistic towards Beach it would be a shock. But I think things have to come out as they come out. Kane and Toews were the faces of the franchise. Q was the coach they would be in the limelight for this. Ditto with Keith and he's said his piece on it. I'm curious about Sharp, after all, he was the other A. Ladd's said things about it as well. I don't necessarily thing it warrants a comment unless it's particularly noteworthy. But as I've said before, the players who slung the slurs at beach deserve some censure, but for the most part I don't think any of the players did much wrong. Sure, Kane and Toews could have worded their statements better, but IMHO that's fixable and there is a well-defined explanation that could explain why they said what they said. Your first paragraph or two are why I ask you these questions and I always appreciate your responses! My ONLY mention of Hossa as a 'what if' had nothing to do with who allegedly insulted the victim,it was a 'what if' the team's most respected(and deservedly so)veteran also knew and relied on mgnt to do what they said they would so the great player could concentrate on the task at hand. I've asked why guys like Boynton and Sople who claimed everyone knew also did nothing at the time,I don't know for sure who knew but I'm sure these two knew because they admit to knowing. Can't find it now but I saw a Sople interview this morning saying how he supports the victim and he goes on to say he went to mgnt was assured they were handling it and then turned his attention to the ice. Isn't this exactly what Q was told and what he did? Why do the finger pointers like Vincent and the two players get to use "we'll handle this,you worry about your job" as their their explanations for doing nothing? I appreciate your informed reason why Gary was the one who should have immediately went to HR since this was his backround but I still feel Vincent,with his law enforcement backround AND him being the only one with a first hand account could have easily gone to HR immidiately instead of leaving it up to his superiors and his law enforcement experience would have carried TONS of weight if he reported it. Vincent is also the AC the victim trusted enough to confide in,other than finger pointing ten years later,what did Vincent do besides hand it to McD? He said he was infuriated after the meeting.....what more did he do after the infuriating meeting? He followed orders like everybody else after being the only official the victim trusted therefor failing him more than anyone else IMO. There's 2 sides to this one: The side that is the hingepin of the recent dismissals: That the Blackhawks organization failed to hold themselves to their own standards with respect to sexual abuse and assault: In that case Vincent from an organization standpoint had very little authority to ensure that the report would be investicaged in a prompt manner, nor did he have much, if any authority, to keep Beach and Aldrich separated; no more than the players had. McD did, Stan did, McIsaac did, and it's *possible*, but not known, whether or not Q did. The second side is something that was either mentioned in this thread or a thread on another board: unless you're a mandatory reporter (and the only one who *might* have been would have been Gary), It's not advisable to go to the authorities unilaterally without the alleged victim. It does more harm then good especially when trying to establish a level of trust to lead to a full disclosure. If I remember the report right, Vincent told Beach to go to Gary, which I believe I said before could have been assumed that Gary should have been more competent to handle the disclosure than Vincent. After all, not all cops are trained to deal in sex crimes. I think there are questions that Vincent has to answer, like why didn't he suggest going to the authorities, HR, and/or why didn't he suggest He (Vincent) accompanies Beach to either. However, not knowing Vincent's law enforcement history history it's plausible Vincent seriously thought Gary, being a psychologist (albeit this investigation proved he is a very poor excuse for one) would be better equipped to handle it. And yes, I'm curious to know Vincent' reasoning. Again, I only know what I read. I thought I read that the Hawks eventually in the summer of 2010 forced Aldrich to resign. I assume that was done as a result of an assessment of the allegations. Did they force Aldrich to resign; or I am mistaken about that? If they did get rid of him, then there was no need to do any additional investigating. He was gone and the team was rid of him and his behavior. But, it is not appropriate to simply pass him and his predatory instincts on to other victims without having law enforcement take a look. Not asking the cops to look into the allegations to see if a criminal charge was appropriate was the major failing, if it is true that they did force him to resign because of the Beach allegations.
Your saying he only told the one guy what happened and didn't tell his parents what happened? I find that hard to believe.If this had gone to the police and an investigation was done then that would have opened up Beach's life up to that point for scrutiny by attorny's. Again none of this is the Hawks responsibility by law. Incident occured between 2 adults and not just one time. They went out at least 2 times together. Classic predator moves: Beach has a history, he's no angel. Because he was at risk to have no one take him seriously because of his past, that makes him an easier target. Almost every single abuser and assailant invariable tries to convince their victim that no one will believe them, that they enjoyed it, and they should never tell anyone and that, "It's going to be our little secret." Further, while discussing this on a short road trip with my wife, she also explained a phenomenon where, when something happens like this, people close to the victims go into denial of sorts, especially if their experience with the alleged assailant has been nothing but good. It's similar to, but not quite the stages of grief. Ergo, it could explain Toews and Kane's press releases and their comments concerning Stan. It also explains a lot of fans and their attitude of "Well, Beach was a horrible human being" because of what happened with generally liked people, like Q in this case vs. Beach who was not well liked. And lastly, she mentioned that a significant amount of cases she's seen where a kid was abused by a trusted family member or family friend, and the family members themselves seem to look for explanations in the victim's behavior which lead to the assault victim (children, in her case) because they can't reconcile the fact that this trusted family friend did something horrible, or *allowed* something horrible to happen. Of course I don't know the details of her cases, but I believe it's a documented phenomenon which, when trying cases of abuse, assault, and rape (especially with children), has to be taken into account. After all, (example here), if someone's parent's can't believe their brother/sister/parents/family friend was capable of something like that, it could cause the victim to clam up feeling that no one believes them...and they can keep that bottled up for years. Not just Beach in that case. I also think, but I'll have to confirm, that a lot of victims don't disclose/outcry to their parents. It depends on the parent/child dynamic. Not everyone has a "Leave it to Beaver" relationship with their parents, and often parents might think their child will confide everything in them, but the child (of any age, including young adults) might not feel they can. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Nov 1, 2021 6:48:45 GMT -6
When we make judgements about the participants in the Beach fiasco and the club's response to it....
The real question is not what we believe happened to Beach. It is what the participants at the time believed happened given the information they had then.
I fully believe Beach. Given what we know about Aldrich's behaviour after leaving the Hawks, it is clear he is a predator and a manipulator.
But if I was at the meeting that day, I would be very skeptical of the story.
Beach was 20 years old. He was an adult. He was a big man and an athlete. He had a history of causing trouble.
The perpetrator was smaller and not as fit. Everyone knew him.
Video coaches barely register on the power totem pole of a hockey franchise. They can be easily replaced.
A former first round pick has real value.
Beach chose not to go to the police. He trusted the organization to investigate. Tragically, they did not believe him. Likely, I would not have either.
Would I have defied my boss, John McD. and taken the issue to the police? I do not know. But I am not going to condemn anyone other than the team president and general manager. They did not do their jobs.
Like so much else wrong with the present culture, we use a sledge hammer to demolish what we disagree with when a fine knife would be the better tool.
|
|
|
|
Post by T-man2010 on Nov 1, 2021 9:44:08 GMT -6
When we make judgements about the participants in the Beach fiasco and the club's response to it.... The real question is not what we believe happened to Beach. It is what the participants at the time believed happened given the information they had then. I fully believe Beach. Given what we know about Aldrich's behaviour after leaving the Hawks, it is clear he is a predator and a manipulator. But if I was at the meeting that day, I would be very skeptical of the story. Beach was 20 years old. He was an adult. He was a big man and an athlete. He had a history of causing trouble. The perpetrator was smaller and not as fit. Everyone knew him. Video coaches barely register on the power totem pole of a hockey franchise. They can be easily replaced. A former first round pick has real value. Beach chose not to go to the police. He trusted the organization to investigate. Tragically, they did not believe him. Likely, I would not have either. Would I have defied my boss, John McD. and taken the issue to the police? I do not know. But I am not going to condemn anyone other than the team president and general manager. They did not do their jobs. Like so much else wrong with the present culture, we use a sledge hammer to demolish what we disagree with when a fine knife would be the better tool. Looking at what happened after that season, they signed Beach to an additional 3+ years contract. I can't find the details of that contract. He played 3 more years in Rockford plus a handful of games the 4th year and then went to Europe where he has been since. He didn't have bad numbers except during his injured seasons, totals fall off a bit, but he looks like he never made NHL level of play. Just like our current team is not an NHL level team. Wish we relegation so our team can be sent to the AHL till they get better. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Nov 1, 2021 9:56:16 GMT -6
Some great opinions expressed here and some great,civil responses!
I have more random thoughts than I have accusations after letting things sink in.
I've stayed away from MB's for long stretches the last few days and I've tried to look inside to figure out if I'm just going out of my way to support a HC and the players left from the era out of appreciation and admiration for that very same era.
I've been rough on the victim and I call him that because of what I know NOW about the predator and his subsequent conviction for the same type of behavior albeit with a much younger,more defenseless victim that time.
It looks like nobody believed the victim at the time and yes,past behavior and his own actions that night are big factors but not believing him was also convenient for the Org,I think we'd all agree.
The Org might have also been slow to label the perp as a predator figuring he may have just been a gay man and the possible homophobic charges if the night was consensual as claimed at the time.
McD apparently mentioned the massive difference in the two men's builds in the report and victim advocates quickly dismiss this and lets say rightly so since the threat of career ruination was mentioned by the victim if he didn't comply and stay quiet and it's probably more of a threat than physicality to be fair. This does beg the question of why comply and then report it anyway but that might be an unfair question since I have such little in-depth knowledge of the issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Nov 1, 2021 10:07:46 GMT -6
When we make judgements about the participants in the Beach fiasco and the club's response to it.... The real question is not what we believe happened to Beach. It is what the participants at the time believed happened given the information they had then. I fully believe Beach. Given what we know about Aldrich's behaviour after leaving the Hawks, it is clear he is a predator and a manipulator. But if I was at the meeting that day, I would be very skeptical of the story. Beach was 20 years old. He was an adult. He was a big man and an athlete. He had a history of causing trouble. The perpetrator was smaller and not as fit. Everyone knew him. Video coaches barely register on the power totem pole of a hockey franchise. They can be easily replaced. A former first round pick has real value. Beach chose not to go to the police. He trusted the organization to investigate. Tragically, they did not believe him. Likely, I would not have either. Would I have defied my boss, John McD. and taken the issue to the police? I do not know. But I am not going to condemn anyone other than the team president and general manager. They did not do their jobs. Like so much else wrong with the present culture, we use a sledge hammer to demolish what we disagree with when a fine knife would be the better tool. Looking at what happened after that season, they signed Beach to an additional 3+ years contract. I can't find the details of that contract. He played 3 more years in Rockford plus a handful of games the 4th year and then went to Europe where he has been since. He didn't have bad numbers except during his injured seasons, totals fall off a bit, but he looks like he never made NHL level of play. Just like our current team is not an NHL level team. Wish we relegation so our team can be sent to the AHL till they get better. I have to think after losing big or physical guys like Eager,Burrish and Frazier and big and talented guys like Buff and Ladd in '2010',the need for a 1st round forward with size was a need and it went unfilled until a 25yro Bickell filled it in '13' yet Beach never saw a game at the NHL level because the commitment was never there IMO. His AHL #'s were pedestrian and his best Jr season BY FAR came in his fifth Jr season as a big 20yro skating against mostly smaller teenagers. |
|
|
|
Post by vadarx on Nov 1, 2021 11:03:59 GMT -6
couple things I've read recently and wanted to add here. I just read this: theathletic.com/2925229/2021/11/01/analysis-how-the-blackhawks-can-make-real-cultural-change-within-the-organization/for those without a sub, the first thing is changing the logo. I told the special lady days ago I expected that would be coming soon. I've stated before I don't care one way or the other, I'll root for the team no matter what they are called/what they wear, but this aggravates me because I know it will be done for PR and not because it is probably the right thing to do... there are other things in the article as well that are likely less divisive (like removing Bobby Hull as an ambassador). separately, I've seen a few times in recent days that is it expected that Beach and his lawyer will request that Toews be stripped of his C as a gesture of good will by the Blackhawks in any settlement reached. I'll..... discuss that if/when it actually happens..... |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Nov 1, 2021 11:45:46 GMT -6
When we make judgements about the participants in the Beach fiasco and the club's response to it.... The real question is not what we believe happened to Beach. It is what the participants at the time believed happened given the information they had then. I believe a lot of companies at the time had verbage in their standard operating procedures about "Hostile Work Environment" Even if the Blackhawks upper management had reason to question Beach because of his history, they not only failed to follow the defined procedure in their handbook to investigate as soon as possible, but by not getting Aldrich and beach separated until the investigation could happen, they were potentially putting Beach in real anger. It would have been nothing for McD, McIsaac, Bowman, and possibly Q to unilaterally put Aldrich on Administrative leave--even paid administrative leave pending an investigation.I fully believe Beach. Given what we know about Aldrich's behaviour after leaving the Hawks, it is clear he is a predator and a manipulator. This statement by you is precicely why the Blackhawks handbook spelled out that investigations should have happened ASAP, and why they should have separated Beach and Aldrich pending said investigation. Even if there was reason to doubt Beach's assertions at the time, the mindset should have been (even back in 2010) that if there's is a slight chance that Beach was telling the truth and Aldrich did indeed assault him, they would be responsible if they failed to separate them in the course of their duties, so err on the side of caution.But if I was at the meeting that day, I would be very skeptical of the story. Again, see above. Beach was 20 years old. He was an adult. He was a big man and an athlete. He had a history of causing trouble. The perpetrator was smaller and not as fit. Everyone knew him. Neither here nor there. I've explained this previously in the thread as "person in position of power". Beach's size, age, and fitness compared to Aldrich neither has, nor should have had anything to do with what could or could not have happened, in spite of most laypeople think (I'll continue that below). According the Beach's interview in the report, Aldrich did indeed threaten his career, and he also tols all of the Black Aces that he has Bowman's ear, thus laying the groundwork in the event that he did find suitable prey it would be easy to keep him quiet. That is textbook grooming.Video coaches barely register on the power totem pole of a hockey franchise. They can be easily replaced. A former first round pick has real value. Which is why there's even more questions to the senior management for not getting Aldrich and Beach separated.Beach chose not to go to the police. He trusted the organization to investigate. Tragically, they did not believe him. Likely, I would not have either. And in that sistatuon you would have been culpable as well if you had any power to separate them and keep the workplace non-hostile until a proper investigation could happen. As for choosing not to go to the police, very few assault victims do, and the reasons would be a thread unto themselves. Suffice to say Beach did not act in a method with respect to the his outcry that was different than a lot of other fictims of various ages, geneders, a size/fitness levels.Would I have defied my boss, John McD. and taken the issue to the police? I do not know. But I am not going to condemn anyone other than the team president and general manager. They did not do their jobs. As previously mentioned the optics on Q's statements casts doubt on him, and as aforementioned if he had the unilateral power separated Beach and Aldrich, he should have. Beyond that, I've mentioned before that only mandatory reporters should go to the police if the victim (alleged) doesn't want them to. Others *could* have offered to accompany Beach to the authorities or HR, but they shouldn't be strung up for that--again, see below.Like so much else wrong with the present culture, we use a sledge hammer to demolish what we disagree with when a fine knife would be the better tool. One of the things my wife mentioned when we were discussing this on the weekend was that it might be good for the 'hawks, and every other NHL team and NHL proper, is to get experts, real experts in, and discuss with EVERYBODY the psychology, trauma, and basic victimology and what individuals can and should do when this happens in the future. That way old, outdated false concepts (like "Beach was so much bigger, why didn't he defend himself?") could un-learned and teams en masse could be better equipped down to the person to handle this. It could also give actual players knowledge of what they can do, how they can help, and what they should and should not do to ensure a victim (alleged) can give a proper, unforced statement as well as not destroy any trust with the victim. My $0.02. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Nov 1, 2021 12:43:14 GMT -6
All this is true, Lord. If anyone had stayed with the process, the situation would not have turned out the way it did. It is tragic.
But we all break rules at times to protect people (handbooks be damned).
If this was a male on female attack, I believe those in the meeting would have responded much more paternally.
In this instance, however, there is the sticky situation of potentially "outing" a gay man (or potentially a couple) who might be in the closet. Was the team protecting Aldrich? Were they protecting Beach?
Hockey is a masculine culture. Not one NHL athlete has ever come forward as gay. In the past 10 years, we as a society have come a long way in valuing homosexuals as people. Of course, there is still much room to grow.
|
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Nov 1, 2021 12:54:53 GMT -6
Why did Beach not report the incident to police? I believe it was because he was embarrassed about the gay subtext of the attack.
If the allegations about Beach facing taunts from the players is accurate (and likely it is) he was right not to want the story made public.
Team management would also see how damaging this situation might be to their prospect's reputation.
|
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Nov 1, 2021 13:36:14 GMT -6
couple things I've read recently and wanted to add here. I just read this: theathletic.com/2925229/2021/11/01/analysis-how-the-blackhawks-can-make-real-cultural-change-within-the-organization/for those without a sub, the first thing is changing the logo. I told the special lady days ago I expected that would be coming soon. I've stated before I don't care one way or the other, I'll root for the team no matter what they are called/what they wear, but this aggravates me because I know it will be done for PR and not because it is probably the right thing to do... there are other things in the article as well that are likely less divisive (like removing Bobby Hull as an ambassador). separately, I've seen a few times in recent days that is it expected that Beach and his lawyer will request that Toews be stripped of his C as a gesture of good will by the Blackhawks in any settlement reached. I'll..... discuss that if/when it actually happens..... I agree with most of what you say. If I were Toews and Kane. I’d just ask to be dealt. I hope they don’t cave to pressure. If you’re gonna do things, do it for the right reasons. The Hawks team will lose a ton of fans more than likely me!!! |
|
|
|
Post by jacksalmon on Nov 1, 2021 13:48:35 GMT -6
Why did Beach not report the incident to police? I believe it was because he was embarrassed about the gay subtext of the attack. If the allegations about Beach facing taunts from the players is accurate (and likely it is) he was right not to want the story made public. Team management would also see how damaging this situation might be to their prospect's reputation. I agree with your assessment as why Beach did not report the incident to the cops. According to SI Hockey News, shortly after the Cup victory, Aldrich was told he could resign or be placed on administrative leave while the team conducted an investigation. He chose to resign, but the team later gave him his day with the Cup; a Cup ring and allowed him to attend the banner raising ceremony in October, 2010. Clearly, the team did not completely disassociate itself from him. To some extent by the way the team handled things, it might have been attempting to get rid of Aldrich and help Beach keep the incident under wraps for his own sake and that of the team's reputation. In assessing the penalty of a $2 million fine by the league against the Hawks, the reason given for it was most likely made ambiguous and unclear as NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman said the fine was the result of the Blackhawks' "inadequate internal procedures and insufficient and untimely response in the handling of matters". Apparently, getting Aldrich to resign was not enough for the league. Or, it might be true that the league simply wanted to impose a substantial fine to show it "cares" and to encourage all teams to have appropriate investigatory systems set up for a similar type of incident that would be reported to a team. The league did not address whether the fine was assessed because the Hawks did not go to the cops. The league also failed to specify what the team should have done that it did not do. While the team could have asked Beach if he wanted them to report it to the cops since he had not and given him the option to not have the sensitive nature of the allegation revealed to the public, it would still seem that the team had an moral obligation to society to report it to the cops in order to potentially protect others who might have been victimized by Aldrich in the future. Except for the lack of concern for potential future victims, to me, getting rid of Aldrich by termination or resignation was an appropriate step by the team. But, the team should have also gone to the cops, regardless of Beach's wishes on that step and that failure justifies placing blame on the Hawk management. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Nov 1, 2021 14:09:58 GMT -6
We all recognize that in all probability there are dozens (if not more) homosexuals or bisexuals in the NHL right now. Everyone of them remains in the closet.
This tells us something about the culture of professional sport. Gay men do not feel welcome. It is an issue in this story, regardless of Beach's actual sexual orientation.
There is no doubt to my mind that most organizations have long histories of covering up incidences of gay sex among athletes to protect reputations.
Of course in today's political climate, this would not make for a valid defence of management's intended actions that day (even if it is true).
|
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Nov 1, 2021 16:24:33 GMT -6
All this is true, Lord. If anyone had stayed with the process, the situation would not have turned out the way it did. It is tragic. But we all break rules at times to protect people (handbooks be damned). If this was a male on female attack, I believe those in the meeting would have responded much more paternally. In this instance, however, there is the sticky situation of potentially "outing" a gay man (or potentially a couple) who might be in the closet. Was the team protecting Aldrich? Were they protecting Beach? Hockey is a masculine culture. Not one NHL athlete has ever come forward as gay. In the past 10 years, we as a society have come a long way in valuing homosexuals as people. Of course, there is still much room to grow. When rules are broken to "protect" someone, and news of that gets out, heads roll. They did and should have. And while you're correct that things would have most likely progressed better if this was a male-on-female attack, the fact that it was male-on-male, even in hindsight should not be an excuse because that just marginalizes what the correct response should be, and that is sexual abuse is sexual abuse regardless of the genders, ages, size, sexual orientations, religions, etc. of all of the involved parties. Ditto on sexual assault. Ditto on rape. Simply because it happened 10 years ago when there was disparity doesn't mean it was any less wrong and any less tragic. IMHO THIS has to be one of the watershed movements for exposing these crimes within sports teams: Reports should be public and transparent, and action has to be taken immediately to diffuse any hostile environments by separating the alleged victim(s) from the alleged assailant(s). |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Nov 1, 2021 16:54:04 GMT -6
I see most moral issues in shades of grey. Rules are broken for many reasons, sometimes good, other times bad.
Sexual abuse has many different meanings and layers. Most see paedophilia as much worse of a crime than indecent exposure. Unwanted touching is not the same as full penetration. Violent rape with a stranger has a different meaning than sex with a consenting minor. All of these crimes are sexual assault. We treat each of them differently and for good reason. "Sexual abuse" is not "sexual abuse."
Attitudes about "wrong" and "right" shift depending on time and location and cultural norms. As Karl Popper used to say, each situation is a situation and that is why it is referred to as a "situation." There is no one size fits all.
Clearly, as you argue above, this experience should be a "watershed" moment for executives everywhere. All sexual assault allegations no matter how improbable must be taken seriously. Alleged victims and alleged assailants must be separated.
Mistakes happen. We are all human and make errors. Punishments must fit the crime.
I feel horribly for what happened to Beach. McD. and Bowman certainly deserve their harsh judgements. But the vitriol being levelled against Quenneville and the players, to my mind, is way over the top.
|
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Nov 1, 2021 17:12:08 GMT -6
I see most moral issues in shades of grey. Rules are broken for many reasons, sometimes good, other times bad. Sexual abuse has many different meanings and layers. Most see paedophilia as much worse of a crime than indecent exposure. Unwanted touching is not the same as full penetration. Violent rape with a stranger has a different meaning than sex with a consenting minor. Coercion of a young teen is not the same as coercion of an adult. All of these crimes are sexual assault. We treat each of them differently and for good reason. "Sexual abuse" is not "sexual abuse." Attitudes about "wrong" and "right" shift depending on time and location and cultural norms. As Karl Popper used to say, each situation is a situation and that is why it is referred to as a "situation." There is no one size fits all. Clearly, as you argue above, this experience should be a "watershed" moment for executives everywhere. All sexual assault allegations no matter how improbable must be taken seriously. Alleged victims and alleged assailants must be separated. Mistakes happen. We are all human and make errors. Punishments must fit the crime. I feel horribly for what happened to Beach. McD. and Bowman certainly deserve their harsh judgements. But the vitriol being levelled against Quenneville and the players, to my mind, is way over the top. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Nov 1, 2021 17:17:28 GMT -6
When I was at school, students slept with their professors all the time. It was a common practice to see grad students marrying their advisors.
Rock bands like Led Zeppelin treated teen groupies like an all you can eat buffet.
We look at this situation much differently today. Quenneville is 60-plus years old. So for that matter is John McD. They came of age in a different era.
|
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Nov 1, 2021 22:08:50 GMT -6
I see most moral issues in shades of grey. Rules are broken for many reasons, sometimes good, other times bad. Sexual abuse has many different meanings and layers. Most see paedophilia as much worse of a crime than indecent exposure. Unwanted touching is not the same as full penetration. Violent rape with a stranger has a different meaning than sex with a consenting minor. All of these crimes are sexual assault. We treat each of them differently and for good reason. "Sexual abuse" is not "sexual abuse."Attitudes about "wrong" and "right" shift depending on time and location and cultural norms. As Karl Popper used to say, each situation is a situation and that is why it is referred to as a "situation." There is no one size fits all. Clearly, as you argue above, this experience should be a "watershed" moment for executives everywhere. All sexual assault allegations no matter how improbable must be taken seriously. Alleged victims and alleged assailants must be separated. Mistakes happen. We are all human and make errors. Punishments must fit the crime. I feel horribly for what happened to Beach. McD. and Bowman certainly deserve their harsh judgements. But the vitriol being levelled against Quenneville and the players, to my mind, is way over the top. The semantics of the layers of sexual abuse needs to be applied *after* the investigation, not before. The most prominent reason is one of the disgusting things about this whole debacle: the fact that the abusers can and almost always re-offend. Further, there's always the risk of escalation. Someone who does unwanted touching is at a significant risk of escalating to more than just unwanted touching. The professionals do their best to deal with any sexual abuse, sexual assault, and rape outcry promptly for that very reason--to stop reoffending and escalation in it's tracks. Beyond that is when they deal with the levels and layers. As I said before, my opinion on Q is that the optics of what he said to the press before and after the report are what did him in. I still don't know if he could have unilaterally put Aldrich on leave so I'm not holding him to that level of scrutiny like I do for Bowman, MacIssac, and McD. Kane tonight came out and redacted his previous statements. As far as I'm concerned he's in the clear. Toews hopefully will do the same thing, soon. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Nov 2, 2021 9:07:49 GMT -6
www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/32527319/gary-bettman-defends-nhl-disciplinary-decisions-chicago-blackhawks-scandalSo Bettman again goes out of his way to absolve ownership and who are Bettman's bosses as commissioner? The video in this story is worth watching,most of us know the details but it says Aldrich met with the DIRECTOR of HR in June and heard 'resign or we investigate' so Aldrich resigned. The Director of HR,which is an autonomous department by design keeps this from an owner who is so involved with the team,he's almost the face of the franchise at that point and is at dam near every game? There's not one member of mgnt loyal enough to Rocky to give him a heads up? Wouldn't an owner be irate at his director of HR if this was kept from him. Who is the director of HR? How in the hell does he or she go unmentioned by name in the investigation since it's the director of HR that offered the resign and no investigation deal. Deputy commissioner Bill Daly said the Blackhawks gave the league a "heads-up" in December about Beach's allegations from Chicago team general counsel about potential civil litigation. As for why the league didn't take action in the five months between the heads-up and Beach's lawsuit being filed, Daly said it was because the Blackhawks said "there was no merit" to the claim. The above quote from the article pretty much blows ownership's story to hell.....NO? The team's general counsel gave the league a heads up in December? Ownership says they didn't know till the suit was filed in May,so Rocky's general counsel didn't tell him either? Who believes this? Daley then absolves the league for taking no action for five months by saying they were told by the team that "there were no merit' to the claim. Who told the league this? They absolve the ast GM at the time,Chevy by saying "he had limited authority and circumstance (WTF does that even mean),he left the meeting believing that this matter was going to be investigated by his bosses,and when Aldrich parted ways with the team,he though that was what happened. Why does this very same explanation used by others only selectively work for some.....like Chevy and Daley. Chevy says he accepted management's assurance that the matter would be handled(so did others) and Daley admittedly says he accepted the team's assurance that the charges "had no merit" as recently as last December. Did Chevy say 'take me down and Rocky goes with me'? The rest of the tweet goes on to say "So laying low and staying out of it,would seem to be a safe defense in the court of Bettman"....only for a selecrive few. And why are Iknownothing Sr and Iknownothing Jr still challenging the case in court after saying only days ago they orderd the general counsel they allegedly never spoke with back in December when he gave the league a "heads up" to settle with the aggrieved victim?
|
|
|
|
Post by mikeveisor on Nov 2, 2021 9:23:02 GMT -6
www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/32527319/gary-bettman-defends-nhl-disciplinary-decisions-chicago-blackhawks-scandalSo Bettman again goes out of his way to absolve ownership and who are Bettman's bosses as commissioner? The video in this story is worth watching,most of us know the details but it says Aldrich met with the DIRECTOR of HR in June and heard 'resign or we investigate' so Aldrich resigned. The Director of HR,which is an autonomous department by design keeps this from an owner who is so involved with the team,he's almost the face of the franchise at that point and is at dam near every game? There's not one member of mgnt loyal enough to Rocky to give him a heads up? Wouldn't an owner be irate at his director of HR if this was kept from him. Who is the director of HR? How in the hell does he or she go unmentioned by name in the investigation since it's the director of HR that offered the resign and no investigation deal. Deputy commissioner Bill Daly said the Blackhawks gave the league a "heads-up" in December about Beach's allegations from Chicago team general counsel about potential civil litigation. As for why the league didn't take action in the five months between the heads-up and Beach's lawsuit being filed, Daly said it was because the Blackhawks said "there was no merit" to the claim. The above quote from the article pretty much blows ownership's story to hell.....NO? The team's general counsel gave the league a heads up in December? Ownership says they didn't know till the suit was filed in May,so Rocky's general counsel didn't tell him either? Who believes this? This has been my theory since the report dropped - there was no way Rocky did not know back in the summer of 2010...or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, etc. Unless/UNLESS he successfully told everyone over all those years, with hands efficiently-cupped over his ears, "I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know...I can't HEAR you!" I own a business and I hear when staff is frustrated with beer faucet nipples not being cleaned by the previous evening's bartender. How is a potential (in terms of a June, 2010 viewing lens) sexual assault by a team manager on a player not communicated up the chain and to the owner? There are more layers of personnel in between, I get it. But no knowledge by the Wirtzes until suit was filed is an incredulous assertion. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Nov 2, 2021 9:27:42 GMT -6
www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/32527319/gary-bettman-defends-nhl-disciplinary-decisions-chicago-blackhawks-scandalSo Bettman again goes out of his way to absolve ownership and who are Bettman's bosses as commissioner? The video in this story is worth watching,most of us know the details but it says Aldrich met with the DIRECTOR of HR in June and heard 'resign or we investigate' so Aldrich resigned. The Director of HR,which is an autonomous department by design keeps this from an owner who is so involved with the team,he's almost the face of the franchise at that point and is at dam near every game? There's not one member of mgnt loyal enough to Rocky to give him a heads up? Wouldn't an owner be irate at his director of HR if this was kept from him. Who is the director of HR? How in the hell does he or she go unmentioned by name in the investigation since it's the director of HR that offered the resign and no investigation deal. Deputy commissioner Bill Daly said the Blackhawks gave the league a "heads-up" in December about Beach's allegations from Chicago team general counsel about potential civil litigation. As for why the league didn't take action in the five months between the heads-up and Beach's lawsuit being filed, Daly said it was because the Blackhawks said "there was no merit" to the claim. The above quote from the article pretty much blows ownership's story to hell.....NO? The team's general counsel gave the league a heads up in December? Ownership says they didn't know till the suit was filed in May,so Rocky's general counsel didn't tell him either? Who believes this? This has been my theory since the report dropped - there was no way Rocky did not know back in the summer of 2010...or 2011, or 2012, or 2013, etc. Unless/UNLESS he successfully told everyone over all those years, with hands efficiently-cupped over his ears, "I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know...I can't HEAR you!" I own a business and I hear when staff is frustrated with beer faucet nipples not being cleaned by the previous evening's bartender. How is a potential (in terms of a June, 2010 viewing lens) sexual assault by a team manager on a player not communicated up the chain and to the owner? There are more layers of personnel in between, I get it. But no knowledge by the Wirtzes until suit was filed is an incredulous assertion. Sell the team Rocky! He knew,he lied about knowing and who could have done more about it at the time than Rocky? |
|
|
|
Post by vadarx on Nov 2, 2021 14:08:02 GMT -6
on a completely separate note here...
bravo to the folks here that also participate over on the chicitysports...
it took me all of a couple weeks to realize that I had no desire to post over there. the trolls are beyond annoying...
someone tell Granada to come back over here where we can actually talk hockey without having to debate whether Sean Avery is a fucking douche...
|
|
|
|
Post by squishy24 on Nov 2, 2021 14:33:45 GMT -6
on a completely separate note here... bravo to the folks here that also participate over on the chicitysports... it took me all of a couple weeks to realize that I had no desire to post over there. the trolls are beyond annoying... someone tell Grenada to come back over here where we can actually talk hockey without having to debate whether Sean Avery is a fucking douche... Granada is coo, he has some great insights. i dont go to chicitysports, who else is there from the old board? anyone seen Merper? (i think that's his name). Darthkane and EbonyRaptor are in hockeybuzz |
|
|
|
Post by T-man2010 on Nov 2, 2021 15:43:59 GMT -6
on a completely separate note here... bravo to the folks here that also participate over on the chicitysports... it took me all of a couple weeks to realize that I had no desire to post over there. the trolls are beyond annoying... someone tell Grenada to come back over here where we can actually talk hockey without having to debate whether Sean Avery is a fucking douche... Granada is coo, he has some great insights. i dont go to chicitysports, who else is there from the old board? anyone seen Merper? (i think that's his name). Darthkane and EbonyRaptor are in hockeybuzz Merper quit here last season along with phil9. Same with ER all over political differences. There are also a couple others that don't come back around for that reason. Most are still on the members list but phil9 and merper deleted their accounts. And I have my thoughts on thats why madrose left us and GT. That's why I rather politics and religion be left out of conversations but everyone is an adult here. |
|
|
|
Post by vadarx on Nov 2, 2021 15:51:01 GMT -6
Granada is coo, he has some great insights. i dont go to chicitysports, who else is there from the old board? anyone seen Merper? (i think that's his name). Darthkane and EbonyRaptor are in hockeybuzz Merper quit here last season along with phil9. Same with ER all over political differences. There are also a couple others that don't come back around for that reason. Most are still on the members list but phil9 and merper deleted their accounts. And I have my thoughts on thats why madrose left us and GT. That's why I rather politics and religion be left out of conversations but everyone is an adult here. merper quit because... well, I'm not sure why. he kinda flipped out for a variety of reasons, imo. which is/was kinda his m.o. phil left because he was upset about us giving him shit for rooting for the Panthers, I thought. kinda bummed me out, personally, cuz I was just giving him a hard time, I didn't actually hold it against him at all or anything. with Bowman now gone, I would love for him to come back. er didn't quit, I believe he just hasn't returned cuz we are "too negative" for him here i thought. I am in agreement on the religion and politics talk here, I posted as much last season. regardless of us all being adults here, it inevitably goes bad and good people end up leaving. |
|
|
|
Post by T-man2010 on Nov 2, 2021 16:33:18 GMT -6
Merper quit here last season along with phil9. Same with ER all over political differences. There are also a couple others that don't come back around for that reason. Most are still on the members list but phil9 and merper deleted their accounts. And I have my thoughts on thats why madrose left us and GT. That's why I rather politics and religion be left out of conversations but everyone is an adult here. merper quit because... well, I'm not sure why. he kinda flipped out for a variety of reasons, imo. which is/was kinda his m.o. phil left because he was upset about us giving him shit for rooting for the Panthers, I thought. kinda bummed me out, personally, cuz I was just giving him a hard time, I didn't actually hold it against him at all or anything. with Bowman now gone, I would love for him to come back. er didn't quit, I believe he just hasn't returned cuz we are "too negative" for him here i thought. I am in agreement on the religion and politics talk here, I posted as much last season. regardless of us all being adults here, it inevitably goes bad and good people end up leaving. I had emailed ER and puterwiz a couple times and ER returned a couple times but then disappears again. Both of them were the first 2 to sign up followed by hsbob. That's why last year I asked if people wanted rules on the boards but I thought better of it figuring adults can converse and agree to disagree. I created this for the gang to have a place to go and continue the same convos they were used too. So these boards are everyone's, I should say that puterwiz does stop in and read the comments but never comments on anything...yet. I just turn on the lights and mop the floor. |
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Nov 2, 2021 18:11:24 GMT -6
Merper quit here last season along with phil9. Same with ER all over political differences. There are also a couple others that don't come back around for that reason. Most are still on the members list but phil9 and merper deleted their accounts. And I have my thoughts on thats why madrose left us and GT. That's why I rather politics and religion be left out of conversations but everyone is an adult here. merper quit because... well, I'm not sure why. he kinda flipped out for a variety of reasons, imo. which is/was kinda his m.o. phil left because he was upset about us giving him shit for rooting for the Panthers, I thought. kinda bummed me out, personally, cuz I was just giving him a hard time, I didn't actually hold it against him at all or anything. with Bowman now gone, I would love for him to come back. er didn't quit, I believe he just hasn't returned cuz we are "too negative" for him here i thought. I am in agreement on the religion and politics talk here, I posted as much last season. regardless of us all being adults here, it inevitably goes bad and good people end up leaving. I still chat with Merper and Phill from time to time. I have Merps number and he has mine. We text every now and then. Both are great guys, and both have had some problems. I’ve talked to both about them. I feel they’re both doing good. I really don’t wanna speak for them. But I also wished they’d come back. Both have awesome insight and it’s always cool to see a different voice. I agree with politics and religion. Unfortunately we’re dealing with just that right now with this scandal. Well, not exactly that, but you know. I really feel that besides a few occasions, these boards have been much better than what’s out there, and even better than the old boards in my opinion. As for others, maybe even GT. He seems like a great guy. But I will say he spent a lot of time on these boards. So good for him for getting away. Maybe he misses them one day? Maybe not. I will say he was very upbeat. However with a team in decline over the last half decade, it was tough for us all to have much faith in the team or be upbeat. I still respect other opinions like nighbor and there was that other poster I haven’t seen much (sorry forgetting your screen name). It’s nothing personal. I don’t really take it personally, so do though. So let’s hope we get a few more back and get back to what we do best!!! Edit: The other guy is irmaks. I like his and nighbors different point of view. It helps. Same with everyone else. MVR and myself had a 73 page tilt going at the old boards over Scambo. But it was all in good fun!!! |
|
|
|
Post by nighbor on Nov 2, 2021 23:09:58 GMT -6
Again, I only know what I read. I thought I read that the Hawks eventually in the summer of 2010 forced Aldrich to resign. I assume that was done as a result of an assessment of the allegations. Did they force Aldrich to resign; or I am mistaken about that? If they did get rid of him, then there was no need to do any additional investigating. He was gone and the team was rid of him and his behavior. But, it is not appropriate to simply pass him and his predatory instincts on to other victims without having law enforcement take a look. Not asking the cops to look into the allegations to see if a criminal charge was appropriate was the major failing, if it is true that they did force him to resign because of the Beach allegations. Again I'll ask you, then why didn't Beach himself go to the police? Or his parents? Your saying he only told the one guy what happened and didn't tell his parents what happened? I find that hard to believe. If this had gone to the police and an investigation was done then that would have opened up Beach's life up to that point for scrutiny by attorny's. Again none of this is the Hawks responsibility by law. Incident occured between 2 adults and not just one time. They went out at least 2 times together. I do not remember when but at one point Beach informed his parents. To me what complicates this is that the baseball bat incident and the other abuse happened away from the United Center. |
|
