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Post by vadarx on Nov 6, 2023 8:44:46 GMT -6
I thought or read Jenner & Block did a complete and thorough investigation. Did this miss this one? I know the Hawks were fined I believe $2M, wonder if this has any type of "legs" will the NHL look to take away any draft picks. as stated in my copied article bits above (or on the previouspage now), he stated no sexual encounters with the asshole. now he has changed his tune, apparently because he has realized what constitutes said encounters, per his legal team. |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Nov 6, 2023 10:36:48 GMT -6
I thought or read Jenner & Block did a complete and thorough investigation. Did this miss this one? I know the Hawks were fined I believe $2M, wonder if this has any type of "legs" will the NHL look to take away any draft picks. as stated in my copied article bits above (or on the previouspage now), he stated no sexual encounters with the asshole. now he has changed his tune, apparently because he has realized what constitutes said encounters, per his legal team. Yup Hawks under national spotlight good time to maximize your $ return. Its awful what happened to the kids but this is about money. |
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Post by mvr on Nov 6, 2023 14:49:36 GMT -6
As this story develops, it does become more disturbing.
I believe quite strongly that the team at the time likely did not believe Beach's version of the events. They knew the coach well and trusted his version of the events (though in hindsight we now know he was likely lying).
Beach was a 6"3" 200 plus pound athlete with a troubled reputation even before arriving. The coach was a small gay man. The team did not recognize the imbalanced power dynamic situation which Beach's legal team used to explain the player's reaction because they did not see the coach as being particularly influential. As an investment, Beach was worth a great deal more to the Hawks than the assistant video coach.
Given this new lawsuit, however, it is clear that the Hawks had to be aware that the assistant coach had problems with sexual boundaries and poor judgement. At the very least, management should have separated him from the young players immediately while an investigation occurred.
I still think the homosexual/stripper/pornography/prostitute/threesome element to this story has been underplayed. Fifteen years ago, a male athlete would have been shamed for any physical contact with a gay man, even if instigated by the perpetrator. Given the context of the time, it would have made sense that management would "sweep" the story under the rug. They wanted to protect the reputation of players who actively (or as we know now, largely unwillingly) participated in lewd situations.
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Post by 2old4this on Nov 6, 2023 16:00:00 GMT -6
Open up the windows
Let some air into this room
I think I'm almost chokin' from the smell of stale perfume
And that cigarette you're smokin' 'bout scare me half to death
Open up the window, sucker, let me catch my breath
The radio is blastin', someone's knockin' at the door
I'm lookin' at my girlfriend, she's passed out on the floor
I seen so many things I ain't never seen before
Don't know what it is, I don't wanna see no more
Mama told me don't come
Mama told me don't come
She said, ("That ain't the way to have fun, son")
("That ain't the way to have fun, no")
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Post by BigT on Nov 6, 2023 20:36:35 GMT -6
I just hope that at some point John McDonaugh gets his ass hammered. I’m not sticking up for anyone else involved. But this guy was a bully, he ruled with an iron fist. He did nothing but belittle and harass the Hawks employees. It pisses me off to no end that that Fuckin prick gets very little blame, or better said, he walked away Scott free. I’m so pissed that a piece of shit that caused the whole problem doesn’t have to answer the bell. Zawaski said something along the lines that there is a possibility that the Hawks may actually be able to sue him for knowingly hiding and abetting criminal activity. I hope this is the case.
Also, they said tonight on TSN that there may be 1-3 more Hawks players and possibly 2-3 more kids in Michigan. So the Hawks could be out well over 200 million more bucks. And that’s just my guesstimate. Rumours I heard of the last 2 were well over 60 million for the 2. If there were 3-4 more, jeebus Chrysler.
I hope for all involved, this is all cleaned up sooner than later. And I’m not openly shaming a victim. But I’d hope that the Hawks could somehow just have a window for claims. And after that they’re closed. The victims do not have to be named. Their lawyers can do the dirty work and get this done. Think it’s not just bad for the Hawks. It’s bad for the league. And the league at some point should help out to get this over with. Let everyone heal and move on!!!
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Post by mikeveisor on Nov 7, 2023 8:43:46 GMT -6
I just hope that at some point John McDonaugh gets his ass hammered. I’m not sticking up for anyone else involved. But this guy was a bully, he ruled with an iron fist. He did nothing but belittle and harass the Hawks employees. It pisses me off to no end that that Fuckin prick gets very little blame, or better said, he walked away Scott free. I’m so pissed that a piece of shit that caused the whole problem doesn’t have to answer the bell. Zawaski said something along the lines that there is a possibility that the Hawks may actually be able to sue him for knowingly hiding and abetting criminal activity. I hope this is the case. Also, they said tonight on TSN that there may be 1-3 more Hawks players and possibly 2-3 more kids in Michigan. So the Hawks could be out well over 200 million more bucks. And that’s just my guesstimate. Rumours I heard of the last 2 were well over 60 million for the 2. If there were 3-4 more, jeebus Chrysler. I hope for all involved, this is all cleaned up sooner than later. And I’m not openly shaming a victim. But I’d hope that the Hawks could somehow just have a window for claims. And after that they’re closed. The victims do not have to be named. Their lawyers can do the dirty work and get this done. Think it’s not just bad for the Hawks. It’s bad for the league. And the league at some point should help out to get this over with. Let everyone heal and move on!!! Agreed on no victim-shaming here being appropriate - but fellow officers of the court have been known to create a factory for certain types of cases (for those local, think: "In a wreck, need a check?") over the years and I'm getting a vibe that that's what may be happening here because the first handful of legal matters have shown $ucce$$ for the plaintiff/victims. I just wonder where things are headed in the coming years on these things - will it go beyond traditional sexual assault catalyzing lawsuits/$-settlements to actions for perceived bullying (Akim Aliu's name just jumped into my head and I cannot recall why) as an assault that garners $$ for the excessively yelled-at? It seems absurd but so have many things over the last decade that my younger self would have assessed and said "no f-cking way" about in the 1990s/early-2000s. All that said, I do not know much about McD other than he created the best outdoor bar in Wrigley Field for years before being with the Hawks and the squad winning cups. I'm guessing Rocky wanted a guy with sharp elbows and maybe those elbows will be repaid with some civil legal comeuppance. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Nov 7, 2023 11:36:37 GMT -6
As this story develops, it does become more disturbing. I believe quite strongly that the team at the time likely did not believe Beach's version of the events. They knew the coach well and trusted his version of the events (though in hindsight we now know he was likely lying). Beach was a 6"3" 200 plus pound athlete with a troubled reputation even before arriving. The coach was a small gay man. The team did not recognize the imbalanced power dynamic situation which Beach's legal team used to explain the player's reaction because they did not see the coach as being particularly influential. As an investment, Beach was worth a great deal more to the Hawks than the assistant video coach. Given this new lawsuit, however, it is clear that the Hawks had to be aware that the assistant coach had problems with sexual boundaries and poor judgement. At the very least, management should have separated him from the young players immediately while an investigation occurred. I still think the homosexual/stripper/pornography/prostitute/threesome element to this story has been underplayed. Fifteen years ago, a male athlete would have been shamed for any physical contact with a gay man, even if instigated by the perpetrator. Given the context of the time, it would have made sense that management would "sweep" the story under the rug. They wanted to protect the reputation of players who actively (or as we know now, largely unwillingly) participated in lewd situations. The public still doesn't, and it is a shame. They see "big strong man" and not "assailant can end a career before it even starts", especially since "big strong man" likely has zero fallback--it's either Hockey or McDonalds (hyperbole intended) It is the same as a perv boss trying to extort sexual favors out of a single mom since they know her choice is limited to 'put out' or 'you and your chilren risk homelessness'. Not to mention it is highly likely Beach, John Doe, Theo Fleury, et al, had their parents drill into their heads that they need to listen to all off their coaches and do everything that they say, never question them no matter what, etc. Hell, I'd go so far as to say the hockey parents here say the same to their kids, without the caveat of "except if they try anything sexual". So yeah, it is very disingenuous to claim Beach should have done something. Aldrich is a predator who behaved like a predator does: come in from a position of power (irrespective of physical size). He made them think he can help their career, or hurt their career. He played on the behavior that was, and is still, prevalent that any of his victims, irrespective of who they were, would be shamed if word of this came out. Almost everyone else who was in-the-know just covered it up (except for Gary, who did almost as much damage as Aldrich). There's no getting around that. It's actually not surprising at all that all of this is coming out now. It does usually take one person actually standing up to their attacter and actually getting some justice before others come forward. Source: married to a forensic psychologist who deals with this everyday. |
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Post by Nikos on Nov 7, 2023 12:35:01 GMT -6
I just hope that at some point John McDonaugh gets his ass hammered. I’m not sticking up for anyone else involved. But this guy was a bully, he ruled with an iron fist. He did nothing but belittle and harass the Hawks employees. It pisses me off to no end that that Fuckin prick gets very little blame, or better said, he walked away Scott free. I’m so pissed that a piece of shit that caused the whole problem doesn’t have to answer the bell. Zawaski said something along the lines that there is a possibility that the Hawks may actually be able to sue him for knowingly hiding and abetting criminal activity. I hope this is the case. Also, they said tonight on TSN that there may be 1-3 more Hawks players and possibly 2-3 more kids in Michigan. So the Hawks could be out well over 200 million more bucks. And that’s just my guesstimate. Rumours I heard of the last 2 were well over 60 million for the 2. If there were 3-4 more, jeebus Chrysler. I hope for all involved, this is all cleaned up sooner than later. And I’m not openly shaming a victim. But I’d hope that the Hawks could somehow just have a window for claims. And after that they’re closed. The victims do not have to be named. Their lawyers can do the dirty work and get this done. Think it’s not just bad for the Hawks. It’s bad for the league. And the league at some point should help out to get this over with. Let everyone heal and move on!!!The partner from the law firm representing John Doe speaking at press conference clearly blames this on John McDonaugh and the Hawks organization as a classic cover-up. He also stated that Beach likely will be called as a witness and the Hawks gave the "pervert" the easiest path by asking him to resign. Probably will not go to trail, but agree the NHL needs to intervene to bring this to some type of closure. |
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Post by BigT on Nov 7, 2023 12:55:10 GMT -6
I do wanna touch on the big strong man type of thinking. And trust me, this type of shit goes on all the way down to when kids start. Everyone is afraid to piss off a coach, or speak up against something as simple as their kids ice time. Everyone goes into a shell. If the victims here had their careers threatened by a coach. I can see how they’d give in to this shit. But I will say that Beach knew that they were getting a hooker. And openly participated.
However, this type of manipulation goes on in all sports. And then enter the creepiest of fuckers and this is what we have. Again, I hope this whole thing gets settled and goes away. Because the last victims will end up facing the brunt of everyone’s frustration and no one will give a shit. Most will think they’re just looking for a big free payday. This is why it’s best to get this over and done with!!!
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Post by hsbob on Nov 7, 2023 13:27:06 GMT -6
As this story develops, it does become more disturbing. I believe quite strongly that the team at the time likely did not believe Beach's version of the events. They knew the coach well and trusted his version of the events (though in hindsight we now know he was likely lying). Beach was a 6"3" 200 plus pound athlete with a troubled reputation even before arriving. The coach was a small gay man. The team did not recognize the imbalanced power dynamic situation which Beach's legal team used to explain the player's reaction because they did not see the coach as being particularly influential. As an investment, Beach was worth a great deal more to the Hawks than the assistant video coach. Given this new lawsuit, however, it is clear that the Hawks had to be aware that the assistant coach had problems with sexual boundaries and poor judgement. At the very least, management should have separated him from the young players immediately while an investigation occurred. I still think the homosexual/stripper/pornography/prostitute/threesome element to this story has been underplayed. Fifteen years ago, a male athlete would have been shamed for any physical contact with a gay man, even if instigated by the perpetrator. Given the context of the time, it would have made sense that management would "sweep" the story under the rug. They wanted to protect the reputation of players who actively (or as we know now, largely unwillingly) participated in lewd situations. The public still doesn't, and it is a shame. They see "big strong man" and not "assailant can end a career before it even starts", especially since "big strong man" likely has zero fallback--it's either Hockey or McDonalds (hyperbole intended) It is the same as a perv boss trying to extort sexual favors out of a single mom since they know her choice is limited to 'put out' or 'you and your chilren risk homelessness'. Not to mention it is highly likely Beach, John Doe, Theo Fleury, et al, had their parents drill into their heads that they need to listen to all off their coaches and do everything that they say, never question them no matter what, etc. Hell, I'd go so far as to say the hockey parents here say the same to their kids, without the caveat of "except if they try anything sexual". So yeah, it is very disingenuous to claim Beach should have done something. Aldrich is a predator who behaved like a predator does: come in from a position of power (irrespective of physical size). He made them think he can help their career, or hurt their career. He played on the behavior that was, and is still, prevalent that any of his victims, irrespective of who they were, would be shamed if word of this came out. Almost everyone else who was in-the-know just covered it up (except for Gary, who did almost as much damage as Aldrich). There's no getting around that. It's actually not surprising at all that all of this is coming out now. It does usually take one person actually standing up to their attacter and actually getting some justice before others come forward. Source: married to a forensic psychologist who deals with this everyday. Everything you say is true in the VAST majority of these situations but in this instance Beach had never shown much respect for his coaches wishes,finding himself in serious trouble at nearly every stop in his young career. He had so much regard for his HC at Rockford,he started a fight with teammate Aliu at the team's year-end diner. This happened not that long before his ill-fated 'Black Ace' call-up,and I still remember being surprised by it for that reason. I also wonder how much input or 'sway' a video coach could possibly have over a HC's use of a player or the GM's assessment of his value. The Big,Bully of a player....proven Bully,also mentioned being physically threatened by the much smaller,sexual predator. And to be fair,that's 'proven' too. I've only questioned Beach's believability due to his history of character issues,I will not question 'John Doe' or "Black Ace 1",as the 2nd accuser is known by. There is a lotta money at stake here though.... \"People may say, oh, this is a money grab. It's not," Romanucci said. "Ultimately, there will be, hopefully, some financial compensation. But there is no doubt in these situations, when people get abused sexually, that it takes time to come forward. And when they see other that people come forward, it gives them the path to follow." Doe's lawsuit alleges 15 counts of negligence against the Blackhawks. Lawyers said they would be seeking well in excess of $300,000 -- which is the minimum in compensatory damages. www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/38833072/blackhawks-sued-again-ignoring-assaults Even these new allegations seem to be gray areas to some extent,especially in the pre-me too days. Rubbing up-against,and massaging the feet of young players while they're being intimate with women are definitely 'red-flags' these days but ya gotta wonder WTF the higher-ups made of em back then. Even if the Org figured the young players had some culpability by possibly willingly putting themselves in the position,the actions of an adult AC supplying illegal prostitutes and alcohol to underaged players so he can watch is devious and immoral behavior at best.......deserving of dismissal! I can't say either Q or SB covered anything up since their superior was well aware BUT the inactions of all involved were a massive mistake and you're right.....no getting around it. |
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Post by mvr on Nov 7, 2023 14:00:03 GMT -6
We are now able to look at this situation in hindsight with much sharper eyes.
Given Aldrich's subsequent behaviour after leaving the team, it is clear that he is a predator. It is also clear that Beach and the other young players assumed he had influence over their careers.
But at the time, the coaches and managers did not have this information. What they understood came from the mouths of the participants and from their preconceived biases. I am sure they were initially quite shocked and perhaps outraged by the behaviour of all involved. Hawk management clearly chose to believe the assistant coach. Obviously, he was lying. I also think management did not see an assistant video coach as someone with much authority. The players had a different perception of the power imbalance. Beach was a high first round pick - a power forward in the making who produced 50 plus goals in Junior hockey. Video coaches can be easily replaced.
I am trying to understand what happened here. I am not defending any of them. Without question, Hawk management did not follow proper protocol. We are living in a different age now with a better understanding of what happens in unbalanced power situations. This is a good thing.
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Post by mvr on Nov 7, 2023 14:06:42 GMT -6
The "gay" component here is very important to recognize.
My guess is that none of the coaches or managers had worked much with a gay man before. They thought it was progressive to hire him. Accusing him of lewd behaviour was not politically palatable. Management did not know what happened at least at the start. They chose to perceive the young players - Beach for certain- as "homophobic." As more information became available (accusations from other players), the Hawks realized they had a problem with the coach.
When a man has a disagreeable female boss, how likely is it that a conflict between the two comes down to accusations of misogyny?
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Post by mvr on Nov 7, 2023 14:24:22 GMT -6
Michael Douglas and Demi Moore were in a truly terrible movie about this exact topic a few decades ago. It was called Disclosure.
Don't bother seeing it if you have not already. It does raise this idea about how we judge sexual predator situations based on our preconceived biases. Women are not usually predators.
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Post by 2old4this on Nov 7, 2023 16:46:36 GMT -6
Michael Douglas and Demi Moore were in a truly terrible movie about this exact topic a few decades ago. It was called Disclosure. Don't bother seeing it if you have not already. It does raise this idea about how we judge sexual predator situations based on our preconceived biases. Women are not usually predators. Read the book...it's much better. |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Nov 7, 2023 22:41:15 GMT -6
Lots of good stuff by you guys about the subject we continue to learn and grow thats a good thing. The bad part is that scum spent less then a year in jail.
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Post by BigT on Nov 8, 2023 8:12:29 GMT -6
Lots of good stuff by you guys about the subject we continue to learn and grow thats a good thing. The bad part is that scum spent less then a year in jail. You know what else pisses me off? At the new John Does presser. The lawyers barely mentioned Aldrich. Barely. They mentioned how the Hawks and McD let him get away. But what about Aldrich? Why isn’t the media banging down his door and looking to further ruin his life? I’m sure his life isn’t easy because of his actions. But he’s still free. And free to do this shit again. If there’s this many victims now, I’m sure he ain’t done till he gets caught in the act. I understand lawyers are trying to get money. But calling out that fucker constantly should be a guarantee. But they’re looking for money!!! |
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Post by LordKOTL on Nov 8, 2023 9:52:05 GMT -6
The public still doesn't, and it is a shame. They see "big strong man" and not "assailant can end a career before it even starts", especially since "big strong man" likely has zero fallback--it's either Hockey or McDonalds (hyperbole intended) It is the same as a perv boss trying to extort sexual favors out of a single mom since they know her choice is limited to 'put out' or 'you and your chilren risk homelessness'. Not to mention it is highly likely Beach, John Doe, Theo Fleury, et al, had their parents drill into their heads that they need to listen to all off their coaches and do everything that they say, never question them no matter what, etc. Hell, I'd go so far as to say the hockey parents here say the same to their kids, without the caveat of "except if they try anything sexual". So yeah, it is very disingenuous to claim Beach should have done something. Aldrich is a predator who behaved like a predator does: come in from a position of power (irrespective of physical size). He made them think he can help their career, or hurt their career. He played on the behavior that was, and is still, prevalent that any of his victims, irrespective of who they were, would be shamed if word of this came out. Almost everyone else who was in-the-know just covered it up (except for Gary, who did almost as much damage as Aldrich). There's no getting around that. It's actually not surprising at all that all of this is coming out now. It does usually take one person actually standing up to their attacter and actually getting some justice before others come forward. Source: married to a forensic psychologist who deals with this everyday. Everything you say is true in the VAST majority of these situations but in this instance Beach had never shown much respect for his coaches wishes,finding himself in serious trouble at nearly every stop in his young career. He had so much regard for his HC at Rockford,he started a fight with teammate Aliu at the team's year-end diner. This happened not that long before his ill-fated 'Black Ace' call-up,and I still remember being surprised by it for that reason. I also wonder how much input or 'sway' a video coach could possibly have over a HC's use of a player or the GM's assessment of his value. The Big,Bully of a player....proven Bully,also mentioned being physically threatened by the much smaller,sexual predator. And to be fair,that's 'proven' too. I've only questioned Beach's believability due to his history of character issues,I will not question 'John Doe' or "Black Ace 1",as the 2nd accuser is known by. There is a lotta money at stake here though.... \"People may say, oh, this is a money grab. It's not," Romanucci said. "Ultimately, there will be, hopefully, some financial compensation. But there is no doubt in these situations, when people get abused sexually, that it takes time to come forward. And when they see other that people come forward, it gives them the path to follow." Doe's lawsuit alleges 15 counts of negligence against the Blackhawks. Lawyers said they would be seeking well in excess of $300,000 -- which is the minimum in compensatory damages. www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/38833072/blackhawks-sued-again-ignoring-assaults Even these new allegations seem to be gray areas to some extent,especially in the pre-me too days. Rubbing up-against,and massaging the feet of young players while they're being intimate with women are definitely 'red-flags' these days but ya gotta wonder WTF the higher-ups made of em back then. Even if the Org figured the young players had some culpability by possibly willingly putting themselves in the position,the actions of an adult AC supplying illegal prostitutes and alcohol to underaged players so he can watch is devious and immoral behavior at best.......deserving of dismissal! I can't say either Q or SB covered anything up since their superior was well aware BUT the inactions of all involved were a massive mistake and you're right.....no getting around it. To answer some of these--again, base upon the knowledge osmosed via my wife (she is the real expert): The argument against Beach because of his character actually plays into why a predator would choose someone like him. It's the same reason some predators chose victims like prostitutes, troubled youth, etc.: The public/familial perception of them would make it less likely that anyone would believe them or take them seriously. As dark as this is--it's something that invariable happens in rape or sexual abuse--the predator does what they can to convince the victim(s) that no one will believe them. If the victim has character issues it feeds into the narrative that no one will believe them, which helps the predator get away with it more than a squeaky-clean person who is beyond reproach. The actual sway a video coach has is not much of a factor--the perceived sway that a predator video coach has--based on the perception of players like the Black aces, is what matters. According to the original investigation report, Aldrich told the Black Aces that he has Q's ear. In fact, if I was to venture a guess, He did that deliberately to put himself in a position of power--one that wouldn't be questioned. He might not have actually had Q's ear, but did the Black Aces know that? Who would tell them that Aldrich didn't have any real power (assuming he didn't)? Plus, we also have to consider that the ultimate goal of every hockey player out there is the NHL. There are players out there who fancy themselves as "too good" for any lower leagues (irrespective of whether they are or not), and do show that level of arrogance or disrespect except for those who can meet their goal of being in the NHL (or NBA, NFL, etc.). Again, that just furthers a guy like Aldrich's weaponry to cherry-pick victims. One of the problems for the lawyers and judges to figure out is whether or not the furthering allegations are a cash grab per each individual alleged victim's allegation, or if they are genuine and it just took one person making a stand for themselves to give the others the courage to stand up as well--especially in a case like this where the environment for men who have been victims of abuse is toxic NOW, much less in a testosterone-fueled locker room, much less 15 years ago...in a testosterone fueled locker room. My only real hope is that people are paying attention and that some out there tend to grasp at some of the psychology of this stuff. There's still a bunch of people out there who can't seem to wrap their head around that fact that a much smaller guy (or woman) can put themselves in an abusive, predatory position over a much larger guy. They think size & strength = power, when it actually doesn't. If a predatory person can exploit a want, need, drive, desire, or a skeleton in someone's closet which they don't want becoming public, it doesn't matter what the size or strength difference is. Lots of good stuff by you guys about the subject we continue to learn and grow thats a good thing. The bad part is that scum spent less then a year in jail. You know what else pisses me off? At the new John Does presser. The lawyers barely mentioned Aldrich. Barely. They mentioned how the Hawks and McD let him get away. But what about Aldrich? Why isn’t the media banging down his door and looking to further ruin his life? I’m sure his life isn’t easy because of his actions. But he’s still free. And free to do this shit again. If there’s this many victims now, I’m sure he ain’t done till he gets caught in the act. I understand lawyers are trying to get money. But calling out that fucker constantly should be a guarantee. But they’re looking for money!!! Agreed. Plus Gary--I've made my feelings for that quack well known. I don't know if there is precedent, but honestly, if I was the NHL, Blackhawks, or both, I would be petitioning the HHoF to remove Aldrich from the cup. |
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Post by mvr on Nov 8, 2023 11:22:16 GMT -6
I am not a lawyer, and I am not really interested in assigning blame here. Clearly, the courts are telling us that the Hawks were negligent. As an outside observer with no skin in the game, I accept that judgement without hesitation.
What interests me is understanding what motivated the Hawk coaches, players and management to do what they did. We recognize they made a severe error in judgement, but we have no real idea what went through their heads at the time.
Quenneville fell on his sword without defending himself at all. McDonagh disappeared. The players for the most part pretended they did not know what was happening (which is clearly not true) or they minimized their involvement. Bowman unsuccessfully tried to pass the buck and blame everyone else. Rocky denied any knowledge about the events and then exploded at a reporter without ever really explaining his role.
If any of us had been in the room that day, would we have responded differently? I don't know.
The issue about Beach's physical size advantage over Aldrich - whether legally relevant or not - matters in understanding what motivated Hawks management. Beach's troubled history (picking on smaller and weaker players) also helps us understand how management could have been so misguided.
Let's say we are in the room that day learning about this confrontation between a homosexual man and a teenage kid. The kid says one thing, the coach suggests something entirely different... signals were misread, intentions misunderstood etc. We know the coach well. We don't really know much about the kid because he has not been around. Would we not see this incident through a homophobic lens? The story seems to be about a troubled and immature kid questioning his identity after a tawdry encounter.
Obviously, we now understand this is not what happened here. But clearly something biased everyone involved against Beach. If Hawks management believed his story, they would have reacted much differently.
Elite athletes typically are like prized horses. Much money is invested in them. To be successful, a team needs to groom these investments effectively. There is no doubt that Beach's performance post-draft had been disappointing. By 2010, his stock had dropped. He had been traded three times in the WHL. Beach was a Tallon pick, which also might have factored in here. But he still managed 52 goals in 68 games that year with Spokane (and 186 PM).
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Post by mvr on Nov 8, 2023 12:55:30 GMT -6
My guess, though I am certain nobody would admit to it now, is that Aldrich's gay lifestyle had been a punchline for countless jokes around the team the entire season.
Nobody took him seriously. So when Beach accuses him of sexual aggression, the first reaction in the room (sadly) would be to make jokes about Beech's small-town naivety and his homophobia.
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Post by hsbob on Nov 8, 2023 13:35:57 GMT -6
Lots of good stuff by you guys about the subject we continue to learn and grow thats a good thing. The bad part is that scum spent less then a year in jail. Real good insights by everyone on this issue and thought provoking as well. If I recall correctly,the report mentioned another 'Black Ace' was approached by Aldrich and refused his advances......I could be wrong on that. If true, the current 'John Doe' has to be that player and the advances themselves have to be the alleged assaults.......which they may be legally. "Black Ace 1",as the new accuser is also referred to as contends that Aldridge "rubbed-up against him" in an "overtly and aggressively sexual" nature and sent the player 'dick-pics' too,this is classic 'red-flag',sexual harassment behavior by a superior as Lord points out. "Black Ace 1" also contends Aldridge "rubbed his feet while he was being intimate with a woman" and since I have NO reason to dis-believe this accuser,I assume he also ended-up at the predator's apartment being served under-aged alcohol and there was more than likely a prostitute involved here too(the woman mentioned). This IS a pattern of behavior on the part of the predator and probably why the 'grooming' accusation is being made and as Lord also pointed-out,the behavior was directed at vulnerable players,one because of a troubled past and it seems another only due to youth and inexperience........and possibly career insecurity as well. I admit to a 'team friendly' perspective on this for a number of reasons that we've all covered and I know I can be too quick to defend anything and everything 'cup-era' related but something is becoming clear for me...... An adult assistant coach was making overt sexual advances toward young players that he may have held some 'sway' over(perceved or otherwise),(unwanted or welcomed),it matters not. Following-up with lewd texts takes the behavior to the next level,which was ADMITTEDLY supplying under-aged players with alcohol and prostitutes to create a booze-sex filled environment where he could attempt to partake in sexual activity with the young player(s),this was the predator's 'MO' or pattern. Like I said,I have no reason to doubt "Black Ace 1",and his allegations corroborate the somewhat less believable Beach,who now seems more so,but even if someone else doesn't.........how can an adult AC feeding under-aged players alcohol and prostitutes alone NOT be grounds for immediate dismissal? THEY WERN'T! |
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Post by mvr on Nov 8, 2023 14:10:15 GMT -6
We do need some sense of the timeline here.
How long after the Beach incident did the second Black Ace report Aldrich? Did the team take any actions then? If so, who knew what? What did the team do?
We all agree Quenneville should never have written that letter of reference. The action takes on an ugly smell if he had been aware of the second complaint. Now there is a pattern.
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Post by bigbarn27 on Nov 8, 2023 14:36:23 GMT -6
Everything you say is true in the VAST majority of these situations but in this instance Beach had never shown much respect for his coaches wishes,finding himself in serious trouble at nearly every stop in his young career. He had so much regard for his HC at Rockford,he started a fight with teammate Aliu at the team's year-end diner. This happened not that long before his ill-fated 'Black Ace' call-up,and I still remember being surprised by it for that reason. I also wonder how much input or 'sway' a video coach could possibly have over a HC's use of a player or the GM's assessment of his value. The Big,Bully of a player....proven Bully,also mentioned being physically threatened by the much smaller,sexual predator. And to be fair,that's 'proven' too. I've only questioned Beach's believability due to his history of character issues,I will not question 'John Doe' or "Black Ace 1",as the 2nd accuser is known by. There is a lotta money at stake here though.... \"People may say, oh, this is a money grab. It's not," Romanucci said. "Ultimately, there will be, hopefully, some financial compensation. But there is no doubt in these situations, when people get abused sexually, that it takes time to come forward. And when they see other that people come forward, it gives them the path to follow." Doe's lawsuit alleges 15 counts of negligence against the Blackhawks. Lawyers said they would be seeking well in excess of $300,000 -- which is the minimum in compensatory damages. www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/38833072/blackhawks-sued-again-ignoring-assaults Even these new allegations seem to be gray areas to some extent,especially in the pre-me too days. Rubbing up-against,and massaging the feet of young players while they're being intimate with women are definitely 'red-flags' these days but ya gotta wonder WTF the higher-ups made of em back then. Even if the Org figured the young players had some culpability by possibly willingly putting themselves in the position,the actions of an adult AC supplying illegal prostitutes and alcohol to underaged players so he can watch is devious and immoral behavior at best.......deserving of dismissal! I can't say either Q or SB covered anything up since their superior was well aware BUT the inactions of all involved were a massive mistake and you're right.....no getting around it. To answer some of these--again, base upon the knowledge osmosed via my wife (she is the real expert): The argument against Beach because of his character actually plays into why a predator would choose someone like him. It's the same reason some predators chose victims like prostitutes, troubled youth, etc.: The public/familial perception of them would make it less likely that anyone would believe them or take them seriously. As dark as this is--it's something that invariable happens in rape or sexual abuse--the predator does what they can to convince the victim(s) that no one will believe them. If the victim has character issues it feeds into the narrative that no one will believe them, which helps the predator get away with it more than a squeaky-clean person who is beyond reproach. The actual sway a video coach has is not much of a factor--the perceived sway that a predator video coach has--based on the perception of players like the Black aces, is what matters. According to the original investigation report, Aldrich told the Black Aces that he has Q's ear. In fact, if I was to venture a guess, He did that deliberately to put himself in a position of power--one that wouldn't be questioned. He might not have actually had Q's ear, but did the Black Aces know that? Who would tell them that Aldrich didn't have any real power (assuming he didn't)? Plus, we also have to consider that the ultimate goal of every hockey player out there is the NHL. There are players out there who fancy themselves as "too good" for any lower leagues (irrespective of whether they are or not), and do show that level of arrogance or disrespect except for those who can meet their goal of being in the NHL (or NBA, NFL, etc.). Again, that just furthers a guy like Aldrich's weaponry to cherry-pick victims. One of the problems for the lawyers and judges to figure out is whether or not the furthering allegations are a cash grab per each individual alleged victim's allegation, or if they are genuine and it just took one person making a stand for themselves to give the others the courage to stand up as well--especially in a case like this where the environment for men who have been victims of abuse is toxic NOW, much less in a testosterone-fueled locker room, much less 15 years ago...in a testosterone fueled locker room. My only real hope is that people are paying attention and that some out there tend to grasp at some of the psychology of this stuff. There's still a bunch of people out there who can't seem to wrap their head around that fact that a much smaller guy (or woman) can put themselves in an abusive, predatory position over a much larger guy. They think size & strength = power, when it actually doesn't. If a predatory person can exploit a want, need, drive, desire, or a skeleton in someone's closet which they don't want becoming public, it doesn't matter what the size or strength difference is. You know what else pisses me off? At the new John Does presser. The lawyers barely mentioned Aldrich. Barely. They mentioned how the Hawks and McD let him get away. But what about Aldrich? Why isn’t the media banging down his door and looking to further ruin his life? I’m sure his life isn’t easy because of his actions. But he’s still free. And free to do this shit again. If there’s this many victims now, I’m sure he ain’t done till he gets caught in the act. I understand lawyers are trying to get money. But calling out that fucker constantly should be a guarantee. But they’re looking for money!!! Agreed. Plus Gary--I've made my feelings for that quack well known. I don't know if there is precedent, but honestly, if I was the NHL, Blackhawks, or both, I would be petitioning the HHoF to remove Aldrich from the cup. Been done Rocky wrote the HHOF in 21 and asked for the name to be removed it was a week later XXXX over it if im not mistaken |
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Post by mvr on Nov 8, 2023 17:17:06 GMT -6
One other quick point to keep in mind.
Me Too conversations started as far back as 2007. But most experts trace the real turning point as 2017, when Hollywood actresses vocalized their harassment online and the story went viral.
Quenneville and McDougagh came from a different era. Professors slept with their students routinely. Bosses had affairs with junior workers and secretaries.
People had different attitudes also about homosexuality. Elton John came out as a bisexual in the mid 1970s but married a woman a decade later in what many perceive to be an attempt to change his image. A mean-spirited urban legend about Rod Stewart, a bar room full of sailors and a stomach pump just about ruined his career. Virtually overnight, he lost the majority of his high testosterone male fans from his Faces days, leaving him with a little choice but to turn to soft pop and dance music. I can't tell you how many times I was teased about remaining a fan.
My guess is that much of the team's reaction here to Beach was from a paternalistic angle. They were concerned if the story got it, the player's career would be ruined. Not a single NHL hockey player to this day has come out. We know there are gay players in the league right now almost without question. Why the secrets? We know why.
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Post by mvr on Nov 8, 2023 17:20:42 GMT -6
sorry about hogging the boards here. I am laid up in bed with covid and have nothing to do but think.
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Post by mvr on Nov 8, 2023 17:30:10 GMT -6
Just to set the record straight here, these are Stewart's words about the alleged incident: "I have never orally pleasured even a solitary sailor, let alone a ship's worth in one evening. And I have never had my stomach pumped, either of naval-issue semen or of any other kind of semen."
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Post by BigT on Nov 8, 2023 17:37:46 GMT -6
I do agree with you MVR that a gay man would’ve still been ridiculed for his lifestyle back in 2010. And a player caught with him would’ve looked bad.
Which leads me to question, did any of the players know this? Because to me Aldick was simply a predator. And I think he just preyed on the weakest minded individuals. If everyone knew he was gay, I doubt Beach would go out with him to bars and such. He probably thought they were going halfers on a hooker. Then the predator struck. But my questions have always been the same. Why the fuck did he go out with him on multiple occasions? I’m not shaming him. But it sounds more like buyers remorse. I just hope this thing gets put behind us and we can move on from that fucker. Piece of shit!!!
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Post by bigbarn27 on Nov 8, 2023 23:47:19 GMT -6
sorry about hogging the boards here. I am laid up in bed with covid and have nothing to do but think. Hope you get better MVR ! |
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Post by galaxytrash on Nov 9, 2023 0:12:54 GMT -6
sorry about hogging the boards here. I am laid up in bed with covid and have nothing to do but think. Hope you get better MVR ! agree. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 9, 2023 9:11:57 GMT -6
Just to set the record straight here, these are Stewart's words about the alleged incident: "I have never orally pleasured even a solitary sailor, let alone a ship's worth in one evening. And I have never had my stomach pumped, either of naval-issue semen or of any other kind of semen." And Mick and Bowie were found in bed together too......LOL! Mick and Rod the Mod might have collectively wedded and bedded about 1/4 of the world's most beautiful women,these two bastards are approaching 80,still touring or playing,still married to hotties and both had kids not all that long ago........two VERILE MF'ers IMO! But Bowie did promote a 'gender-bender', androgynous image and bisexual rumors always swirled around him so who knows but he too was linked to many beautiful women and married to model Iman for 24yrs at his death. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Nov 9, 2023 10:59:31 GMT -6
To answer some of these--again, base upon the knowledge osmosed via my wife (she is the real expert): The argument against Beach because of his character actually plays into why a predator would choose someone like him. It's the same reason some predators chose victims like prostitutes, troubled youth, etc.: The public/familial perception of them would make it less likely that anyone would believe them or take them seriously. As dark as this is--it's something that invariable happens in rape or sexual abuse--the predator does what they can to convince the victim(s) that no one will believe them. If the victim has character issues it feeds into the narrative that no one will believe them, which helps the predator get away with it more than a squeaky-clean person who is beyond reproach. The actual sway a video coach has is not much of a factor--the perceived sway that a predator video coach has--based on the perception of players like the Black aces, is what matters. According to the original investigation report, Aldrich told the Black Aces that he has Q's ear. In fact, if I was to venture a guess, He did that deliberately to put himself in a position of power--one that wouldn't be questioned. He might not have actually had Q's ear, but did the Black Aces know that? Who would tell them that Aldrich didn't have any real power (assuming he didn't)? Plus, we also have to consider that the ultimate goal of every hockey player out there is the NHL. There are players out there who fancy themselves as "too good" for any lower leagues (irrespective of whether they are or not), and do show that level of arrogance or disrespect except for those who can meet their goal of being in the NHL (or NBA, NFL, etc.). Again, that just furthers a guy like Aldrich's weaponry to cherry-pick victims. One of the problems for the lawyers and judges to figure out is whether or not the furthering allegations are a cash grab per each individual alleged victim's allegation, or if they are genuine and it just took one person making a stand for themselves to give the others the courage to stand up as well--especially in a case like this where the environment for men who have been victims of abuse is toxic NOW, much less in a testosterone-fueled locker room, much less 15 years ago...in a testosterone fueled locker room. My only real hope is that people are paying attention and that some out there tend to grasp at some of the psychology of this stuff. There's still a bunch of people out there who can't seem to wrap their head around that fact that a much smaller guy (or woman) can put themselves in an abusive, predatory position over a much larger guy. They think size & strength = power, when it actually doesn't. If a predatory person can exploit a want, need, drive, desire, or a skeleton in someone's closet which they don't want becoming public, it doesn't matter what the size or strength difference is. Agreed. Plus Gary--I've made my feelings for that quack well known. I don't know if there is precedent, but honestly, if I was the NHL, Blackhawks, or both, I would be petitioning the HHoF to remove Aldrich from the cup. Been done Rocky wrote the HHOF in 21 and asked for the name to be removed it was a week later XXXX over it if im not mistaken Thanks! I think if it hasn't happened yet, it should. I don't remember hearing that it did happen. I do agree with you MVR that a gay man would’ve still been ridiculed for his lifestyle back in 2010. And a player caught with him would’ve looked bad. Which leads me to question, did any of the players know this? Because to me Aldick was simply a predator. And I think he just preyed on the weakest minded individuals. If everyone knew he was gay, I doubt Beach would go out with him to bars and such. He probably thought they were going halfers on a hooker. Then the predator struck. But my questions have always been the same. Why the fuck did he go out with him on multiple occasions? I’m not shaming him. But it sounds more like buyers remorse. I just hope this thing gets put behind us and we can move on from that fucker. Piece of shit!!! The answer to the italicized is likely simple: why do people who want to get into a very competitive industry lower their standards and glom onto people that tell them they can help make their dream come true? If Beach and the other Black aces believed that Aldrich had Q's ear (irrespective of whether or not he actually did), they would try to get in his good graces irrespective of what they truly thought of him. In a less rapey example, how many of us here, at one point or another, have abased ourselves and volunteered for a shit task no one wants to do to hopefully prove to someone above us in some hierarchy that we should get what we wanted--irrespective of whether or not we actually got it? How many kids sometimes volunteer to do a shit chore they hate just so their parents will do something for them or get something for them? Playing devil's advocate here. |
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