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Post by T-man2010 on Feb 20, 2020 20:51:39 GMT -6
don't make the hate make you unreasonable. if you were Vegas, would you give 2 second rounders for Gus? or for Martinez?
Anyway, Gus mentioned that not having a secure contract like Dcat signed in the offseason, affected his game (Strome said that same thing). Gus also mentioned that he is willing to take a paycut to stay in Chicago. His family lives here and loves it here.
I wouldn't trade 2 second rounders for either of them. I can't believe they gave up that much for Martinez. that being said, I hope he stays healthy for em and helps them challenge for the west. any opposition to the blows winning the west again is cool with me. my main annoyance is that they were interested and we didn't take whatever they offered for him. at this point we should take whatever we can get for him, he was a free agent signing to begin with and he is gone after this year for sure. we also need more draft picks. now there is one less team interested in him. as far as your second paragraph..... if Strome and Gus's seasons are being effected by a lack of an extension right now..... well, that just makes me want to give either of them an extension even less, although my desire to extend Gus is at 0%. Strome I would like to see brought back, but that comment kinda weakens that want. not having an extension should be motivating these guys, not holding them back.... IMO Stromes problem stems from the lack of production from D-cat. |
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Post by BigT on Feb 20, 2020 21:34:29 GMT -6
I wouldn't trade 2 second rounders for either of them. I can't believe they gave up that much for Martinez. that being said, I hope he stays healthy for em and helps them challenge for the west. any opposition to the blows winning the west again is cool with me. my main annoyance is that they were interested and we didn't take whatever they offered for him. at this point we should take whatever we can get for him, he was a free agent signing to begin with and he is gone after this year for sure. we also need more draft picks. now there is one less team interested in him. as far as your second paragraph..... if Strome and Gus's seasons are being effected by a lack of an extension right now..... well, that just makes me want to give either of them an extension even less, although my desire to extend Gus is at 0%. Strome I would like to see brought back, but that comment kinda weakens that want. not having an extension should be motivating these guys, not holding them back.... IMO Stromes problem stems from the lack of production from D-cat. True. Let’s also not rule out the blenda that has an agenda! The lines have been awful at best. Why no one from above has stepped in and wanted to see what we seen last year is beyond me. It’s like two blind guys walk into a bar, the 2nd guy say “OUCH”. They both should be gone!!! |
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Post by T-man2010 on Feb 20, 2020 21:45:48 GMT -6
IMO Stromes problem stems from the lack of production from D-cat. True. Let’s also not rule out the blenda that has an agenda! The lines have been awful at best. Why no one from above has stepped in and wanted to see what we seen last year is beyond me. It’s like two blind guys walk into a bar, the 2nd guy say “OUCH”. They both should be gone!!! No one was a blenda as much as Q was. As I see it JC held lines the same way too long. Gave them more than enough time to get their crap together. He's had to put Kane with just about every line to spark something in them. He doesn't need to put Kane with JT and Kubi, they can handle that themselves. |
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Post by hsbob on Feb 20, 2020 22:18:17 GMT -6
I was just noting a trade.....hateful and unreasonable? WTF? What's YOUR point,Gus is so worthless on the trade market that we should keep him? Playing in a contract year get's most guys goin',D-Cat's new deal didn't do anything for his play....did it? hate is a strong word, sorry let me rephrase what i meant to say; dont make the dislike of SB (or wanting him gone) make you think that we would have received 2 second rounders for Gus (unreasonable) if only SB was on the phone with Vegas. But that wasnt your point, looking back, i can see where i misread you. my bad my second paragraph has nothing to do with the first one. I was just passing on interview notes i read in an article. He should be traded, he's not playing like he wants a new contract. But if what he says is true about taking a paycut, the possibility of him being re-sign becomes even more possible. My dislike of SB or anyone else has no baring on my assessment of Gus. Not trading this plyer after he came off of a SIXTY point season from the back end before he completely exposed his lack of defensive understanding this year is a major mistake as was trading Joker.....both decisions will have negative ramifications well beyond this year. Was it unreasonable for the Isle to give up a 2nd for 38yro Andy Green? Was it unreasonable for the Blues to give the Habs a 2nd for Scandella after the Habs got him for a 4th a few weeks ago? Was it unreasonable for the Jets to give up a 3rd for F'n Dylan DeMelo? A lot of GM's do the unreasonable(like not trading Gus) and I'll leave what is reasonable up to you. Brandon Bollig brought back a 3rd for God's sake. I don't care how little Gus will play for,he's awful and just take the place of a younger player. |
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Post by hsbob on Feb 20, 2020 22:34:47 GMT -6
IMO Stromes problem stems from the lack of production from D-cat. True. Let’s also not rule out the blenda that has an agenda! The lines have been awful at best. Why no one from above has stepped in and wanted to see what we seen last year is beyond me. It’s like two blind guys walk into a bar, the 2nd guy say “OUCH”. They both should be gone!!! I can't think of another HC who wouldn't do everything he could to get his young goal scorer going but it seems the staff and some fans would rather see D-Cat get some type of retribution than get goin'. They might as well trade him too because this staff has NO idea how to coach up a young NHL'er and next to no experience at it. Strome and D-Cat were money last year with F'n Perlini on their line for fuks sake,boy wonder would have none of that again this year and separated them from the start. D-Cat's been with 3rd line quality linemates most of the year and he's still 3rd in team scoring. The Org was embarrassed by three forwards with 120 goals and still missing last year and since they can't do anything about the 'missing' part.....they could about the 120 goals part. Separating K&T and D&S was a dim-witted idea and we saw it right from the start for SOME reason. Just remember......good players-bad and bad players-good and you'll be OK!LOL! |
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Post by hsbob on Feb 20, 2020 22:40:24 GMT -6
To put 2019-2020 in perspective,our 2LC is 29 and he has 19 goals and 33 assists.....for his career. Patrick Kane has been great all things considered this season so far. AA could and should be centering that line.
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Post by galaxytrash on Feb 20, 2020 23:34:10 GMT -6
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Post by Tater on Feb 21, 2020 1:33:36 GMT -6
I wouldn't trade 2 second rounders for either of them. I can't believe they gave up that much for Martinez. that being said, I hope he stays healthy for em and helps them challenge for the west. any opposition to the blows winning the west again is cool with me. my main annoyance is that they were interested and we didn't take whatever they offered for him. at this point we should take whatever we can get for him, he was a free agent signing to begin with and he is gone after this year for sure. we also need more draft picks. now there is one less team interested in him. as far as your second paragraph..... if Strome and Gus's seasons are being effected by a lack of an extension right now..... well, that just makes me want to give either of them an extension even less, although my desire to extend Gus is at 0%. Strome I would like to see brought back, but that comment kinda weakens that want. not having an extension should be motivating these guys, not holding them back....
It sure didn't hold Kreider back.
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Post by vadarx on Feb 21, 2020 1:58:40 GMT -6
I wouldn't trade 2 second rounders for either of them. I can't believe they gave up that much for Martinez. that being said, I hope he stays healthy for em and helps them challenge for the west. any opposition to the blows winning the west again is cool with me. my main annoyance is that they were interested and we didn't take whatever they offered for him. at this point we should take whatever we can get for him, he was a free agent signing to begin with and he is gone after this year for sure. we also need more draft picks. now there is one less team interested in him. as far as your second paragraph..... if Strome and Gus's seasons are being effected by a lack of an extension right now..... well, that just makes me want to give either of them an extension even less, although my desire to extend Gus is at 0%. Strome I would like to see brought back, but that comment kinda weakens that want. not having an extension should be motivating these guys, not holding them back....
It sure didn't hold Kreider back.
yep..... seems like that be driving them to do as well as they can so they can get as much as they can in negotiations. Kreider is gonna get paid by someone this summer.... |
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Post by galaxytrash on Feb 21, 2020 8:17:37 GMT -6
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Post by LordKOTL on Feb 21, 2020 8:46:45 GMT -6
don't make the hate make you unreasonable. if you were Vegas, would you give 2 second rounders for Gus? or for Martinez?
Anyway, Gus mentioned that not having a secure contract like Dcat signed in the offseason, affected his game (Strome said that same thing). Gus also mentioned that he is willing to take a paycut to stay in Chicago. His family lives here and loves it here.
I wouldn't trade 2 second rounders for either of them. I can't believe they gave up that much for Martinez. that being said, I hope he stays healthy for em and helps them challenge for the west. any opposition to the blows winning the west again is cool with me. my main annoyance is that they were interested and we didn't take whatever they offered for him. at this point we should take whatever we can get for him, he was a free agent signing to begin with and he is gone after this year for sure. we also need more draft picks. now there is one less team interested in him. as far as your second paragraph..... if Strome and Gus's seasons are being effected by a lack of an extension right now..... well, that just makes me want to give either of them an extension even less, although my desire to extend Gus is at 0%. Strome I would like to see brought back, but that comment kinda weakens that want. not having an extension should be motivating these guys, not holding them back.... This, this, this this, and more this. If that was their excuse they just played themselves out of a decent payday. |
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Post by vadarx on Feb 21, 2020 9:56:55 GMT -6
pretty sad how small that sliver has gotten in a short amount of time..... |
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Post by tincup on Feb 21, 2020 10:16:05 GMT -6
pretty sad how small that sliver has gotten in a short amount of time..... I have a crack in my windshield that’s bigger. |
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Post by shooter61 on Feb 21, 2020 10:52:18 GMT -6
I think that's just hearsay, they are pro's they know like we do that to get paid you have to produce.
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Post by galaxytrash on Feb 21, 2020 17:39:32 GMT -6
pretty sad how small that sliver has gotten in a short amount of time..... I have a crack in my windshield that’s bigger. hawks are 26-26-8 after 60 games, 12th in the west. after 60 games last year we were 25-26-9 and were in a 3 way tie for 9th in the west at the time. we still managed to be a playoff team somewhat late in the season for about 10 minutes just prior the baffling late-season collapse. so it's possible. but this team hasn't given me one speck of hope that they can put together any kind of a substantial late run. so disappointing. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Feb 21, 2020 18:14:48 GMT -6
I have a crack in my windshield that’s bigger. hawks are 26-26-8 after 60 games, 12th in the west. after 60 games last year we were 25-26-9 and were in a 3 way tie for 9th in the west at the time. we still managed to be a playoff team somewhat late in the season for about 10 minutes just prior the baffling late-season collapse. so it's possible. but this team hasn't given me one speck of hope that they can put together any kind of a substantial late run. so disappointing. Doesn't help the refs screwed them over in Canada, they should've had at least 4 more points, both GWGs in Winnipeg were on bs calls by the ref, or non calls, the phantom trip on Toews vs Edmonton was the difference there and Kane scored vs the Canucks and Saad never interfered with the goalie. So that could've been 4 to 8pts right there and they'd be close to a wild card spot. I'm not blaming it all on the refs cause the Hawks look like complete garbage most games but that definitely doesn't help. I have no confidence in this team, especially with Colliton and Stan in charge, so even with games in hand over teams ahead of them they'll probably squander that. |
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Post by galaxytrash on Feb 21, 2020 19:18:15 GMT -6
yikes.
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Post by shooter61 on Feb 21, 2020 20:20:02 GMT -6
yes, yikes ! is right, but i don't think it's a permanent thing,the cat's been getting chances, he is just awful for some reason on both sides of the puck,strome had a good 1st half then the injury, a couple good games after that, then nothing, they played lots together last year,this year for a long while they have both been all over the lineup, they have been together lately, young players need structure and I don't think they get much here
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Post by tincup on Feb 21, 2020 20:26:13 GMT -6
Wonder how that corresponds to his shift to wing from center. |
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Post by Tater on Feb 22, 2020 3:42:11 GMT -6
Wonder how that corresponds to his shift to wing from center. Great point. I've never warmed up Strome though and wouldn't mind if he was traded. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Feb 22, 2020 8:01:46 GMT -6
I have looked at this before and it is even more striking now. In their third season after their last Cup, the 2017-18 one, the Hawks finished dead last in the Central. In their third season after their last Cup, this one, the Pens are doing quite well with the third best record in the East and leading the Metropolitan. If one treats Crosby/Malkin/Letang and Toews/Kane/Keith as equals, then what is the difference?
I guess the Pens have made better draft picks, trades and whatever else they have going to be where they are compared to where the Hawks were in that third season. Missing Hossa was a big loss, though.
The reason I bring this up in this thread is that here we are two more seasons after the bad one in 17-18 and the Hawks still haven't figured it out and how to do it is still a big mystery. It could just be a story of better individual performances over there in Pittsburgh in the third season after the Cup; or it could be a system-wide explanation.
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Post by hsbob on Feb 22, 2020 9:23:58 GMT -6
I have looked at this before and it is even more striking now. In their third season after their last Cup, the 2017-18 one, the Hawks finished dead last in the Central. In their third season after their last Cup, this one, the Pens are doing quite well with the third best record in the East and leading the Metropolitan. If one treats Crosby/Malkin/Letang and Toews/Kane/Keith as equals, then what is the difference? I guess the Pens have made better draft picks, trades and whatever else they have going to be where they are compared to where the Hawks were in that third season. Missing Hossa was a big loss, though. The reason I bring this up in this thread is that here we are two more seasons after the bad one in 17-18 and the Hawks still haven't figured it out and how to do it is still a big mystery. It could just be a story of better individual performances over there in Pittsburgh in the third season after the Cup; or it could be a system-wide explanation. Better individual performances by who jack? Kane and Toews have 43gls and 128pts between em and are far and away the team's best two players. Sid and Geno have 30gls and 98pts between em and are 1st and 4th in Pens scoring. I've read a lot lately about how K&T's salaries cripple the team and you've certainly pointed to it also so it must be the 3M less the Pens pay their top two guys.....right? An amount NOT enough to pay Zach Smith. The Pens ability to develop young,cheap GT's has been a Godsend for them 4.4M spent on goaltending and not acquiring 8.5M in damaged goods helps too I imagine. The Pens have lost good players thenselves and we saw first round exits in 16&17 with Hossa. Kane and Toews have also stayed a lot healthier than Sid and Geno but have NOWHERE near the same level of support or coaching IMO. |
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Post by hsbob on Feb 22, 2020 9:55:53 GMT -6
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Post by jacksalmon on Feb 22, 2020 16:33:15 GMT -6
I have looked at this before and it is even more striking now. In their third season after their last Cup, the 2017-18 one, the Hawks finished dead last in the Central. In their third season after their last Cup, this one, the Pens are doing quite well with the third best record in the East and leading the Metropolitan. If one treats Crosby/Malkin/Letang and Toews/Kane/Keith as equals, then what is the difference? I guess the Pens have made better draft picks, trades and whatever else they have going to be where they are compared to where the Hawks were in that third season. Missing Hossa was a big loss, though. The reason I bring this up in this thread is that here we are two more seasons after the bad one in 17-18 and the Hawks still haven't figured it out and how to do it is still a big mystery. It could just be a story of better individual performances over there in Pittsburgh in the third season after the Cup; or it could be a system-wide explanation. Better individual performances by who jack? Kane and Toews have 43gls and 128pts between em and are far and away the team's best two players. Sid and Geno have 30gls and 98pts between em and are 1st and 4th in Pens scoring. I've read a lot lately about how K&T's salaries cripple the team and you've certainly pointed to it also so it must be the 3M less the Pens pay their top two guys.....right? An amount NOT enough to pay Zach Smith. The Pens ability to develop young,cheap GT's has been a Godsend for them 4.4M spent on goaltending and not acquiring 8.5M in damaged goods helps too I imagine. The Pens have lost good players thenselves and we saw first round exits in 16&17 with Hossa. Kane and Toews have also stayed a lot healthier than Sid and Geno but have NOWHERE near the same level of support or coaching IMO. Well, I am not exactly sure of the reasons why the difference in performance in the third season following the last Cup, but I can see the difference in the standings, so something must explain it. That is why despite the better stats by Kane and Toews, I said they were equals with Crosby and Malkin as I so declared Keith and Letang. But, remember, in the Crosby/Malkin stat story there are lot of missed games for each of them which might explain some of the point discrepancy. That is also one of the reasons I said C/M and K/T were equals. Are Rust and Guentzel (sp?) that much better than Saad and DCat? I assume the rest of their support players are just simply much better than the Hawks' Carpenters and Smiths and Kampfs. As you said, the goalies are top notch. I will assume that their dmen are also better though I am not going to attempt to prove it with stats. But, mere observation of the amount of the time Hawk opponents spend in the Hawk d end tells me that the Hawk dmen aren't too good at keeping them out of there. So, it would appear to come down to the support players behind C/M/L are that much better than those behind K/T/K and better goalies along with superior coaching. All in all, for me, I guess it goes to show that with the right support personnel and coaching it is possible to pay your stars after Cup wins and still have a competitive team three years later. Poor support and poor coaching spell lack of success even with good performances from Kane/Toews and Keith. In any event, the Pens are doing better in third post-Cup season than the Hawks did for whatever reasons. |
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Post by Tater on Feb 23, 2020 0:54:23 GMT -6
The Hawks coaching and "system" is a big part of the problem.
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Post by hsbob on Feb 23, 2020 8:34:32 GMT -6
The Hawks coaching and "system" is a big part of the problem. Yes it is my friend and if the team was successful,coaching and system would be a big part of the solution but it ain't. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Feb 23, 2020 8:48:57 GMT -6
The Hawks coaching and "system" is a big part of the problem. Yes it is my friend and if the team was successful,coaching and system would be a big part of the solution but it ain't. Bob, I bothered to pro rate the Crosby Malkin stats versus Kane and Toews, neither of whom has missed a game. C&M would have 153 points versus T&K's 138. So, to me, it is still fair to treat them as equals. All of which means that support players, goalies and the coaching systems explain the team performance differences seen in the third year following the Cup victory. But, when looking at coaching systems as a factor, it is important to remember that Q was still around in that third year. It gets complicated when trying to explain it, but the difference in team performance, as a whole, is glaring. |
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Post by hsbob on Feb 23, 2020 9:08:44 GMT -6
Better individual performances by who jack? Kane and Toews have 43gls and 128pts between em and are far and away the team's best two players. Sid and Geno have 30gls and 98pts between em and are 1st and 4th in Pens scoring. I've read a lot lately about how K&T's salaries cripple the team and you've certainly pointed to it also so it must be the 3M less the Pens pay their top two guys.....right? An amount NOT enough to pay Zach Smith. The Pens ability to develop young,cheap GT's has been a Godsend for them 4.4M spent on goaltending and not acquiring 8.5M in damaged goods helps too I imagine. The Pens have lost good players thenselves and we saw first round exits in 16&17 with Hossa. Kane and Toews have also stayed a lot healthier than Sid and Geno but have NOWHERE near the same level of support or coaching IMO. Well, I am not exactly sure of the reasons why the difference in performance in the third season following the last Cup, but I can see the difference in the standings, so something must explain it. That is why despite the better stats by Kane and Toews, I said they were equals with Crosby and Malkin as I so declared Keith and Letang. But, remember, in the Crosby/Malkin stat story there are lot of missed games for each of them which might explain some of the point discrepancy. That is also one of the reasons I said C/M and K/T were equals. Are Rust and Guentzel (sp?) that much better than Saad and DCat? I assume the rest of their support players are just simply much better than the Hawks' Carpenters and Smiths and Kampfs. As you said, the goalies are top notch. I will assume that their dmen are also better though I am not going to attempt to prove it with stats. But, mere observation of the amount of the time Hawk opponents spend in the Hawk d end tells me that the Hawk dmen aren't too good at keeping them out of there. So, it would appear to come down to the support players behind C/M/L are that much better than those behind K/T/K and better goalies along with superior coaching. All in all, for me, I guess it goes to show that with the right support personnel and coaching it is possible to pay your stars after Cup wins and still have a competitive team three years later. Poor support and poor coaching spell lack of success even with good performances from Kane/Toews and Keith. In any event, the Pens are doing better in third post-Cup season than the Hawks did for whatever reasons. It's a tale of four cities jack,Boston and Pittsburgh have been able to stay very competitive and Chicago and LA haven't. All four teams have kept their best/highest paid players throughout and LA made Doughty one of the game's highest paid players for the next seven years,LA also has 4 picks in the first two rounds this summer and 8 picks in the first four rounds. IMO,Boston has done the best job of re-signing their top players,Krejci,Bergeron,Pastrnak and Marchand make 29.9M combined and Marchand's 6.125M is an extraordinary value.....like him or not. Boston has two picks in this summer's first 4 rounds.....none in the 1st round. Maybe Kane and Toews taking 1M less each makes enough of a difference but I doubt either one of us believes that. Maybe Seabs taking a few less years makes enough of a difference and maybe spending 21 million on de Haan,Shaw,Maata,Smith and Lehner last summer should of made a difference. SB spent over a quarter of his team's cap space with these acquisitions,lost a 2nd and a 3rd and a decent/cheap,young forward. Did the team get value that helped it or do we see the same results? |
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Post by hsbob on Feb 23, 2020 9:21:29 GMT -6
Yes it is my friend and if the team was successful,coaching and system would be a big part of the solution but it ain't. Bob, I bothered to pro rate the Crosby Malkin stats versus Kane and Toews, neither of whom has missed a game. C&M would have 153 points versus T&K's 138. So, to me, it is still fair to treat them as equals. All of which means that support players, goalies and the coaching systems explain the team performance differences seen in the third year following the Cup victory. But, when looking at coaching systems as a factor, it is important to remember that Q was still around in that third year. It gets complicated when trying to explain it, but the difference in team performance, as a whole, is glaring. Fair point jack,they are equals and some would say the Pens two great forwards are better than the Hawks two great forwards......it's a good debate. Sid and Geno have been the better of the pairs offensively but I believe Toews is better defensively and a better FO guy than either and Kane's as good as either IMO. I also believe the ability to stay healthy after all they've been through adds a lot of value to K&T's deals.....having your best players in the lineup every game helps a team or at least it helps most teams. Q was around for that third year as you say(his last full year) and the team won the west easily if I recall but they ended up getting swept in the 1st round just like the Pens and the Bolts did last year......shit happens I guess. |
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Post by galaxytrash on Feb 26, 2020 6:36:40 GMT -6
that little piece of pie's but a sliver now.
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