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Post by jacksalmon on Mar 17, 2023 20:44:28 GMT -6
There are other drafts and other picks. Theyll be fine. no team is made in one draft Sure there are other drafts but not all drafts are built the same. And while surely bedard and/or fantilli could fail to live up to the hype, certainly you’d want one and not the alternative. Generational talents don’t come along very often. Before bedard it was Mcdavid in 2015. Before him Crosby in 2005. (Maybe you can argue kane though the draft hype for him wasn’t nearly as great as for the other 2). Now go look at those drafts and see if the teams who missed out on no. 1 are ok cause “other drafts would follow” The rest of the top 10 in 2005 wound up being a legit dumpster fire. 2015 is a bit better though eichel hasn’t been as good as advertised and certainly didn’t help the Sabres much. The key in that draft was mikko rantanen at 10 to the avalanche. So yes, there will be other drafts. And intern GM can load up on 1st rounders. Maybe he gets lucky and most then into good/serviceable NHL players. But it would seem to me that it’s a superstar driven league and you need the bedard’s of the world to win cups and stay great for a lengthy time. To borrow a line from the wire, “when you come at the king, you best not miss”… if they’re going to be bad for and extended period and successfully execute a complete rebuild then they had better not miss guys like bedard or fantilli (and yes I’m aware it’s a matter of luck no matter what due to the lottery but they need to do their part to have the best odds. If they still don’t get the pick at that point then oh well. But playing themselves out of the pick is intolerable) The problem is that there is a big difference between what the smart fans want for this team, which is to finish last and get Bedard; and what the current roster players want for themselves, which is to play well and advance their careers. Most of them wont' even be around when the draft picks become roster players, so, in reality, the current roster players don't give a shit about the Chicago Blackhawks franchise. Piss on the Blackhawks, they are just an opportunity to make some money in the NHL; and, no one can blame for not caring about whether the Hawks are a playoff team in 5 years. So, they play as hard as possible as they are only trying to improve their opportunities to make some money as NHL hockey players. They don't give a shit if the Hawks are a playoff team in five years, but they do give a shit about whether their efforts today will lead to them having decent contracts and still be NHL players in 5 years. So, there is a vast disparity between the interest of the fans and the current players and that is why they aren't losing every game. If they play Boston and the Bruins come into town not giving a damn about winning and the Hawk wannabees are playing their asses off, the Hawks will win that game and that is exactly what happened and will continue to happen until this season is over. |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Mar 17, 2023 20:50:59 GMT -6
There are other drafts and other picks. Theyll be fine. no team is made in one draft Sure there are other drafts but not all drafts are built the same. And while surely bedard and/or fantilli could fail to live up to the hype, certainly you’d want one and not the alternative. Generational talents don’t come along very often. Before bedard it was Mcdavid in 2015. Before him Crosby in 2005. (Maybe you can argue kane though the draft hype for him wasn’t nearly as great as for the other 2). Now go look at those drafts and see if the teams who missed out on no. 1 are ok cause “other drafts would follow”
The rest of the top 10 in 2005 wound up being a legit dumpster fire. 2015 is a bit better though eichel hasn’t been as good as advertised and certainly didn’t help the Sabres much. The key in that draft was mikko rantanen at 10 to the avalanche. So yes, there will be other drafts. And intern GM can load up on 1st rounders. Maybe he gets lucky and most then into good/serviceable NHL players. But it would seem to me that it’s a superstar driven league and you need the bedard’s of the world to win cups and stay great for a lengthy time. To borrow a line from the wire, “when you come at the king, you best not miss”… if they’re going to be bad for and extended period and successfully execute a complete rebuild then they had better not miss guys like bedard or fantilli (and yes I’m aware it’s a matter of luck no matter what due to the lottery but they need to do their part to have the best odds. If they still don’t get the pick at that point then oh well. But playing themselves out of the pick is intolerable) What are you talking about if you count the next 10 teams after Pitt picked from the 2005 draft. 7 of the 10 went to the SCF. In the next 10 years the 10 picks after pittsburg won 7 Stanly cups how is that a dumpster fire. While we are on the subject of Dumpster Fires when I went to the Steel game one of the beer league team names was Dumpster Fire LOL |
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Post by squishy24 on Mar 17, 2023 21:15:32 GMT -6
There are other drafts and other picks. Theyll be fine. no team is made in one draft Sure there are other drafts but not all drafts are built the same. And while surely bedard and/or fantilli could fail to live up to the hype, certainly you’d want one and not the alternative. Generational talents don’t come along very often. Before bedard it was Mcdavid in 2015. Before him Crosby in 2005. (Maybe you can argue kane though the draft hype for him wasn’t nearly as great as for the other 2). Now go look at those drafts and see if the teams who missed out on no. 1 are ok cause “other drafts would follow” The rest of the top 10 in 2005 wound up being a legit dumpster fire. 2015 is a bit better though eichel hasn’t been as good as advertised and certainly didn’t help the Sabres much. The key in that draft was mikko rantanen at 10 to the avalanche. So yes, there will be other drafts. And intern GM can load up on 1st rounders. Maybe he gets lucky and most then into good/serviceable NHL players. But it would seem to me that it’s a superstar driven league and you need the bedard’s of the world to win cups and stay great for a lengthy time. To borrow a line from the wire, “when you come at the king, you best not miss”… if they’re going to be bad for and extended period and successfully execute a complete rebuild then they had better not miss guys like bedard or fantilli (and yes I’m aware it’s a matter of luck no matter what due to the lottery but they need to do their part to have the best odds. If they still don’t get the pick at that point then oh well. But playing themselves out of the pick is intolerable) All year long, and even longer than that, all ive read is this draft is the deepest and best in a while, but now, not getting top3 pick is an intolerable offense? Honestly, I think this is the longest ive posted about drafts and prospects. I dont buy into hyping players that have never set foor in an NHL game. Ive said many times, im probably the only one in this board that wasnt a fan of tanking. Lets instill a winning attitude and a positive environment for the guys to learn and develop from, right? And when the team starts winning youre going to tell them to lose? (Insert the shocked pikachu meme face here) And im not even a fan of KD, the trade for Mrazek was idiotic and the whole Kane trade was handled poorly, but im not about to ignore the many good things KD has done on his short time here. What did he do to get such a short leash? Now you can read here that he should be fired along with Richardson, thats the most ridiculous thing ive read here. I respect the opinion that its Bedard (or top3 pick) or this rebuild will take longer. IMO this team will develop fine without them |
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Post by vadarx on Mar 17, 2023 23:35:41 GMT -6
All year long, and even longer than that, all ive read is this draft is the deepest and best in a while, but now, not getting top3 pick is an intolerable offense? Honestly, I think this is the longest ive posted about drafts and prospects. I dont buy into hyping players that have never set foor in an NHL game. Ive said many times, im probably the only one in this board that wasnt a fan of tanking. Lets instill a winning attitude and a positive environment for the guys to learn and develop from, right? And when the team starts winning youre going to tell them to lose? (Insert the shocked pikachu meme face here) And im not even a fan of KD, the trade for Mrazek was idiotic and the whole Kane trade was handled poorly, but im not about to ignore the many good things KD has done on his short time here. What did he do to get such a short leash? Now you can read here that he should be fired along with Richardson, thats the most ridiculous thing ive read here. I respect the opinion that its Bedard (or top3 pick) or this rebuild will take longer. IMO this team will develop fine without them You're leaving out the debacle of the Debrincat trade. Davidson got nowhere near the return on his top 2 offensive players. Yes, he's made decent moves, but not getting more for Debrincat and Kane was a massive failure. Debrincat is on Davidson 100%, while Kane and his agent take a large part if the blame for the lack of return in that trade. In the end we'll see where this team ends up and what draft slot they get. But when there are generational talents available like Bedard, even a deep draft us going to feel like a failure if the Hawks end up drafting anywhere other then top 3. i'd actually say outside of the top 4 would be a bummer. I know a lot of folks here are down on Michkov, but I think he would be a fine pick @ 4 if that is where we end up. he would come over to NA right around the time the team *should* be on its ascent... |
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Post by galaxytrash on Mar 18, 2023 2:43:58 GMT -6
Sure there are other drafts but not all drafts are built the same. And while surely bedard and/or fantilli could fail to live up to the hype, certainly you’d want one and not the alternative. Generational talents don’t come along very often. Before bedard it was Mcdavid in 2015. Before him Crosby in 2005. (Maybe you can argue kane though the draft hype for him wasn’t nearly as great as for the other 2). Now go look at those drafts and see if the teams who missed out on no. 1 are ok cause “other drafts would follow” The rest of the top 10 in 2005 wound up being a legit dumpster fire. 2015 is a bit better though eichel hasn’t been as good as advertised and certainly didn’t help the Sabres much. The key in that draft was mikko rantanen at 10 to the avalanche. So yes, there will be other drafts. And intern GM can load up on 1st rounders. Maybe he gets lucky and most then into good/serviceable NHL players. But it would seem to me that it’s a superstar driven league and you need the bedard’s of the world to win cups and stay great for a lengthy time. To borrow a line from the wire, “when you come at the king, you best not miss”… if they’re going to be bad for and extended period and successfully execute a complete rebuild then they had better not miss guys like bedard or fantilli (and yes I’m aware it’s a matter of luck no matter what due to the lottery but they need to do their part to have the best odds. If they still don’t get the pick at that point then oh well. But playing themselves out of the pick is intolerable) Ive said many times, im probably the only one in this board that wasnt a fan of tanking. Lets instill a winning attitude and a positive environment for the guys to learn and develop from, right? And when the team starts winning youre going to tell them to lose? some (many?) (most?) won't agree but i think we have the perfect mix right now. imho i think we've had a nice glimpse of how this team will look/play into the future under richardson even with such limited talent, while still being in the race for a nice pick at the draft. boohoo...we won't get bedard. well...we likely had about a 10-15% chance at the start of the year anyways so dry your tears and move on. (but remember...while your chins are still quivering...we still might still get him. hush now, don't tell anyone).look at our lineup. so many effn' throw ins on trades, so many guys who were seemingly on their last contracts. we got so many hardmans, andersons, reese johnsons, 'wistles, khairas, dickinsons, blackwells. and we got rid of our 2 top scorers in kane and domi and our second best defenseman who was somehow a +7 on a team in the -60s. what more is a g.m. supposed to do to tank? deduct salary from over-performing goalies? sign the u.s. paralympic team? fire richardson and davidson? what rubbish! i've never heard a worse plan for success in my life. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2023 3:46:21 GMT -6
Sure there are other drafts but not all drafts are built the same. And while surely bedard and/or fantilli could fail to live up to the hype, certainly you’d want one and not the alternative. Generational talents don’t come along very often. Before bedard it was Mcdavid in 2015. Before him Crosby in 2005. (Maybe you can argue kane though the draft hype for him wasn’t nearly as great as for the other 2). Now go look at those drafts and see if the teams who missed out on no. 1 are ok cause “other drafts would follow”
The rest of the top 10 in 2005 wound up being a legit dumpster fire. 2015 is a bit better though eichel hasn’t been as good as advertised and certainly didn’t help the Sabres much. The key in that draft was mikko rantanen at 10 to the avalanche. So yes, there will be other drafts. And intern GM can load up on 1st rounders. Maybe he gets lucky and most then into good/serviceable NHL players. But it would seem to me that it’s a superstar driven league and you need the bedard’s of the world to win cups and stay great for a lengthy time. To borrow a line from the wire, “when you come at the king, you best not miss”… if they’re going to be bad for and extended period and successfully execute a complete rebuild then they had better not miss guys like bedard or fantilli (and yes I’m aware it’s a matter of luck no matter what due to the lottery but they need to do their part to have the best odds. If they still don’t get the pick at that point then oh well. But playing themselves out of the pick is intolerable) What are you talking about if you count the next 10 teams after Pitt picked from the 2005 draft. 7 of the 10 went to the SCF. In the next 10 years the 10 picks after pittsburg won 7 Stanly cups how is that a dumpster fire. While we are on the subject of Dumpster Fires when I went to the Steel game one of the beer league team names was Dumpster Fire LOL come on man, stop moving the goal posts, these are the next 9 picks after crosby carey price had a short window of greatness and went to 1 cup final, beyond him only bobby ryan had decent success and that was his first few years and he's been irrelevant since... jack johnson has has a long career but not the kind a no. 3 pick is expected to have and was not a key part in any cup finally you get kopitar at 11 (outside the top 10, not in my original post about top 10) and you get cup success 2 Anaheim Bobby Ryan R Owen Sound Attack [OHL] 866 261 308 569 470 2020-21 1 3 Carolina Jack Johnson D U.S. Junior National Team [Intl] 1092 72 244 316 597 2022-23 1 4 Minnesota Benoit Pouliot L Sudbury Wolves [OHL] 625 130 133 263 371 2017-18 1 5 Montreal Carey Price G Tri-City Americans [WHL] 712 0 13 13 51 2021-22 1 6 Columbus Gilbert Brule C Vancouver Giants [WHL] 299 43 52 95 156 2013-14 1 7 Chicago Jack Skille R U.S. Junior National Team [Intl] 368 43 41 84 118 2016-17 1 8 San Jose Devin Setoguchi R Saskatoon Blades [WHL] 516 131 130 261 177 2016-17 1 9 Ottawa Brian Lee D Lincoln Stars [USHL] 209 5 31 36 124 2012-13 1 10 Vancouver Luc Bourdon |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Mar 18, 2023 8:05:45 GMT -6
What are you talking about if you count the next 10 teams after Pitt picked from the 2005 draft. 7 of the 10 went to the SCF. In the next 10 years the 10 picks after pittsburg won 7 Stanly cups how is that a dumpster fire. While we are on the subject of Dumpster Fires when I went to the Steel game one of the beer league team names was Dumpster Fire LOL come on man, stop moving the goal posts, these are the next 9 picks after crosby carey price had a short window of greatness and went to 1 cup final, beyond him only bobby ryan had decent success and that was his first few years and he's been irrelevant since... jack johnson has has a long career but not the kind a no. 3 pick is expected to have and was not a key part in any cup finally you get kopitar at 11 (outside the top 10, not in my original post about top 10) and you get cup success 2 Anaheim Bobby Ryan R Owen Sound Attack [OHL] 866 261 308 569 470 2020-21 1 3 Carolina Jack Johnson D U.S. Junior National Team [Intl] 1092 72 244 316 597 2022-23 1 4 Minnesota Benoit Pouliot L Sudbury Wolves [OHL] 625 130 133 263 371 2017-18 1 5 Montreal Carey Price G Tri-City Americans [WHL] 712 0 13 13 51 2021-22 1 6 Columbus Gilbert Brule C Vancouver Giants [WHL] 299 43 52 95 156 2013-14 1 7 Chicago Jack Skille R U.S. Junior National Team [Intl] 368 43 41 84 118 2016-17 1 8 San Jose Devin Setoguchi R Saskatoon Blades [WHL] 516 131 130 261 177 2016-17 1 9 Ottawa Brian Lee D Lincoln Stars [USHL] 209 5 31 36 124 2012-13 1 10 Vancouver Luc Bourdon I will say it again out of that list 6 of those 9 made it to the SCF. and won 5 cups. Disproving your point about missing the King. And I like how you moved the goal post suit yourself. Point being you can miss and it still works out. We would all like to get first pick lets pick up this discussion after we know where the hawks pick. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Mar 18, 2023 9:09:44 GMT -6
Ive said many times, im probably the only one in this board that wasnt a fan of tanking. Lets instill a winning attitude and a positive environment for the guys to learn and develop from, right? And when the team starts winning youre going to tell them to lose? some (many?) (most?) won't agree but i think we have the perfect mix right now. imho i think we've had a nice glimpse of how this team will look/play into the future under richardson even with such limited talent, while still being in the race for a nice pick at the draft. boohoo...we won't get bedard. well...we likely had about a 10-15% chance at the start of the year anyways so dry your tears and move on. (but remember...while your chins are still quivering...we still might still get him. hush now, don't tell anyone).look at our lineup. so many effn' throw ins on trades, so many guys who were seemingly on their last contracts. we got so many hardmans, andersons, reese johnsons, 'wistles, khairas, dickinsons, blackwells. and we got rid of our 2 top scorers in kane and domi and our second best defenseman who was somehow a +7 on a team in the -60s. what more is a g.m. supposed to do to tank? deduct salary from over-performing goalies? sign the u.s. paralympic team? fire richardson and davidson? what rubbish! i've never heard a worse plan for success in my life. Richardson appears to be a good hire, but making a junior accountant the GM was a ridiculous move. So, if KD gets canned, it ain't no big deal, he can go back to doing the books for the local mom and pop stores; or getting a job at H&R Block. As for the players, the current roster might win a few games, but that is bound to happen when they are all busting their asses to stay in the league and make a little money and they have games against teams that letdown when they play the Hawks. The current roster would not measure up against a team with more talent that would put out the effort of a motivated team. Who knows what the draft will bring, but unless it brings two, or three players that will legitimately be called "stars" in this league, this franchise will be a chump squad for years to come. Remember, they are starting with close to absolutely nothing in their pantry, which includes the Hawk and Hog rosters and will be totally dependent on their draft picks turning out to be stars and very solid NHL players. Good luck with happening. It could happen, but I would not count on it. |
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Post by hsbob on Mar 18, 2023 9:22:31 GMT -6
It doesn't matter whether the Chicago franchise is the laughingstock of the league. What matters is that the idiotic organization hired a guy with no experience as a GM, or as a long-time NHL player, to rebuild the team. This was after the organization had a GM who turned a dynasty into a mediocre team in a matter of just a couple of years. One could say that the quality of a team starts with the quality of the GM and not be very far from the truth. Chicago has not had a quality GM for a long time. Experienced GM's are continually recycled including to the Maple Leaf's and they are without a championship since 1967. Experience does not guarantee success. A couple years is two and Stan ran the show from 09-10 through the championship years. It was not until after the 2017 season that we became mediocre. Second in 2016 and first in the west in 2017 is not mediocre. A guy has to start somewhere,KD dose come across as sharp and involved and Maciver/LR were both good decisions IMO. I would still feel much more confident if the young GM had a veteran PoHO,because as it stands,it's only Jaime,Danny and of course Rocky listed above him in the pecking order and baseball legend 'Hank' Greenberg(LOL)listed directly under him along with Maciver as associate GM's. I'm not sure this is helpful to the young GM. How many GM's regardless of experience have no hockey guy between them and the owner? Does every major hockey decision to come,and they'll be MANY ultimately rest on the shoulders of the young GM or do Danny and Jaime intervene? I thought the last GM did an acceptable to good job up until 4 years or so ago and I debated on his behalf back then. If the Org felt the need for change,they should have cleaned house completely back in '18' in the opinion of many including myself. Keeping one over the other with complete control could be the 'vote of confidence' that leads to complacency or the need to put your 'stamp' on the team with misguided moves and I believe we saw both in his last few years here. |
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Post by hsbob on Mar 18, 2023 9:31:34 GMT -6
There are other drafts and other picks. Theyll be fine. no team is made in one draft Sure there are other drafts but not all drafts are built the same. And while surely bedard and/or fantilli could fail to live up to the hype, certainly you’d want one and not the alternative. Generational talents don’t come along very often. Before bedard it was Mcdavid in 2015. Before him Crosby in 2005. (Maybe you can argue kane though the draft hype for him wasn’t nearly as great as for the other 2). Now go look at those drafts and see if the teams who missed out on no. 1 are ok cause “other drafts would follow” The rest of the top 10 in 2005 wound up being a legit dumpster fire. 2015 is a bit better though eichel hasn’t been as good as advertised and certainly didn’t help the Sabres much. The key in that draft was mikko rantanen at 10 to the avalanche. So yes, there will be other drafts. And intern GM can load up on 1st rounders. Maybe he gets lucky and most then into good/serviceable NHL players. But it would seem to me that it’s a superstar driven league and you need the bedard’s of the world to win cups and stay great for a lengthy time. To borrow a line from the wire, “when you come at the king, you best not miss”… if they’re going to be bad for and extended period and successfully execute a complete rebuild then they had better not miss guys like bedard or fantilli (and yes I’m aware it’s a matter of luck no matter what due to the lottery but they need to do their part to have the best odds. If they still don’t get the pick at that point then oh well. But playing themselves out of the pick is intolerable) You can make your point just fine without the colorful rhetoric. Whether I agree with every word of this post or not a single one(I agree with some),it was a good read......keep it up. |
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Post by hsbob on Mar 18, 2023 10:15:02 GMT -6
Sure there are other drafts but not all drafts are built the same. And while surely bedard and/or fantilli could fail to live up to the hype, certainly you’d want one and not the alternative. Generational talents don’t come along very often. Before bedard it was Mcdavid in 2015. Before him Crosby in 2005. (Maybe you can argue kane though the draft hype for him wasn’t nearly as great as for the other 2). Now go look at those drafts and see if the teams who missed out on no. 1 are ok cause “other drafts would follow” The rest of the top 10 in 2005 wound up being a legit dumpster fire. 2015 is a bit better though eichel hasn’t been as good as advertised and certainly didn’t help the Sabres much. The key in that draft was mikko rantanen at 10 to the avalanche. So yes, there will be other drafts. And intern GM can load up on 1st rounders. Maybe he gets lucky and most then into good/serviceable NHL players. But it would seem to me that it’s a superstar driven league and you need the bedard’s of the world to win cups and stay great for a lengthy time. To borrow a line from the wire, “when you come at the king, you best not miss”… if they’re going to be bad for and extended period and successfully execute a complete rebuild then they had better not miss guys like bedard or fantilli (and yes I’m aware it’s a matter of luck no matter what due to the lottery but they need to do their part to have the best odds. If they still don’t get the pick at that point then oh well. But playing themselves out of the pick is intolerable) The problem is that there is a big difference between what the smart fans want for this team, which is to finish last and get Bedard; and what the current roster players want for themselves, which is to play well and advance their careers. Most of them wont' even be around when the draft picks become roster players, so, in reality, the current roster players don't give a shit about the Chicago Blackhawks franchise. Piss on the Blackhawks, they are just an opportunity to make some money in the NHL; and, no one can blame for not caring about whether the Hawks are a playoff team in 5 years. So, they play as hard as possible as they are only trying to improve their opportunities to make some money as NHL hockey players. They don't give a shit if the Hawks are a playoff team in five years, but they do give a shit about whether their efforts today will lead to them having decent contracts and still be NHL players in 5 years. So, there is a vast disparity between the interest of the fans and the current players and that is why they aren't losing every game. If they play Boston and the Bruins come into town not giving a damn about winning and the Hawk wannabees are playing their asses off, the Hawks will win that game and that is exactly what happened and will continue to happen until this season is over. C'mon jack! When a player puts on his team's 'sweater' and plays "as hard as possible",the two things he ISN'T doing are "not giving a shit" and "pissing on his team"! Believe it or not,most of the players on all the tank teams are playing "as hard as they can" and their fans aren't any "smarter" either because all of cheer wins,because.....it's hockey! It's not the player's or fan's job to assure losses,it's against their nature as it's always been and the Org dumped 5 of their 8 leading scorers last summer,4 of em their 5 leading goal scorers and some effective vets at the TDL along with Kane too.........has any Org done more to tank personnel-wise? Maybe it can be argued that even more vets could have been moved or moved earlier,Lafferty drove play for the team at times and he was cheap as it gets......no reason to wait till the TDL to move him or maybe McCabe with money retained too but that doesn't address the team's current play. Is the 'tough as nails' veteran HC on the same page as his young GM? Can a few D-men or a GT go down to injury for the rest of the year(nod nod-wink wink)? Can the "play as hard as possible" players be played out of position with either too much or too little ice time? I still believe the team would have been much less effective defensively with 2-3 more kids in there all year on D on making mistakes and since all the kids I'm referring to are 21 or older,it probably helps em more than hurts em.......JMO. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Mar 18, 2023 11:12:24 GMT -6
Experienced GM's are continually recycled including to the Maple Leaf's and they are without a championship since 1967. Experience does not guarantee success. A couple years is two and Stan ran the show from 09-10 through the championship years. It was not until after the 2017 season that we became mediocre. Second in 2016 and first in the west in 2017 is not mediocre. A guy has to start somewhere,KD dose come across as sharp and involved and Maciver/LR were both good decisions IMO. I would still feel much more confident if the young GM had a veteran PoHO,because as it stands,it's only Jaime,Danny and of course Rocky listed above him in the pecking order and baseball legend 'Hank' Greenberg(LOL)listed directly under him along with Maciver as associate GM's. I'm not sure this is helpful to the young GM. How many GM's regardless of experience have no hockey guy between them and the owner? Does every major hockey decision to come,and they'll be MANY ultimately rest on the shoulders of the young GM or do Danny and Jaime intervene? I thought the last GM did an acceptable to good job up until 4 years or so ago and I debated on his behalf back then. If the Org felt the need for change,they should have cleaned house completely back in '18' in the opinion of many including myself. Keeping one over the other with complete control could be the 'vote of confidence' that leads to complacency or the need to put your 'stamp' on the team with misguided moves and I believe we saw both in his last few years here. Also on KD's team is Cambell and Kunitz along with Maciver and the rest you mentioned. So there are ex-players to "help" him. I would have rather they kept Eddie to be that guy to advise KD. |
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Post by hsbob on Mar 18, 2023 11:21:54 GMT -6
A guy has to start somewhere,KD dose come across as sharp and involved and Maciver/LR were both good decisions IMO. I would still feel much more confident if the young GM had a veteran PoHO,because as it stands,it's only Jaime,Danny and of course Rocky listed above him in the pecking order and baseball legend 'Hank' Greenberg(LOL)listed directly under him along with Maciver as associate GM's. I'm not sure this is helpful to the young GM. How many GM's regardless of experience have no hockey guy between them and the owner? Does every major hockey decision to come,and they'll be MANY ultimately rest on the shoulders of the young GM or do Danny and Jaime intervene? I thought the last GM did an acceptable to good job up until 4 years or so ago and I debated on his behalf back then. If the Org felt the need for change,they should have cleaned house completely back in '18' in the opinion of many including myself. Keeping one over the other with complete control could be the 'vote of confidence' that leads to complacency or the need to put your 'stamp' on the team with misguided moves and I believe we saw both in his last few years here. Also on KD's team is Cambell and Kunitz along with Maciver and the rest you mentioned. So there are ex-players to "help" him. I would have rather they kept Eddie to be that guy to advise KD. An improved group advising the young GM gives me some confidence but the ultimate decisions will have HIS name on em when it's all said and done with his only superiors who could intervene being Jaime and Danny.....that gives me none. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Mar 18, 2023 12:34:22 GMT -6
The problem is that there is a big difference between what the smart fans want for this team, which is to finish last and get Bedard; and what the current roster players want for themselves, which is to play well and advance their careers. Most of them wont' even be around when the draft picks become roster players, so, in reality, the current roster players don't give a shit about the Chicago Blackhawks franchise. Piss on the Blackhawks, they are just an opportunity to make some money in the NHL; and, no one can blame for not caring about whether the Hawks are a playoff team in 5 years. So, they play as hard as possible as they are only trying to improve their opportunities to make some money as NHL hockey players. They don't give a shit if the Hawks are a playoff team in five years, but they do give a shit about whether their efforts today will lead to them having decent contracts and still be NHL players in 5 years. So, there is a vast disparity between the interest of the fans and the current players and that is why they aren't losing every game. If they play Boston and the Bruins come into town not giving a damn about winning and the Hawk wannabees are playing their asses off, the Hawks will win that game and that is exactly what happened and will continue to happen until this season is over. C'mon jack! When a player puts on his team's 'sweater' and plays "as hard as possible",the two things he ISN'T doing are "not giving a shit" and "pissing on his team"! Believe it or not,most of the players on all the tank teams are playing "as hard as they can" and their fans aren't any "smarter" either because all of cheer wins,because.....it's hockey! It's not the player's or fan's job to assure losses,it's against their nature as it's always been and the Org dumped 5 of their 8 leading scorers last summer,4 of em their 5 leading goal scorers and some effective vets at the TDL along with Kane too.........has any Org done more to tank personnel-wise? Maybe it can be argued that even more vets could have been moved or moved earlier,Lafferty drove play for the team at times and he was cheap as it gets......no reason to wait till the TDL to move him or maybe McCabe with money retained too but that doesn't address the team's current play. Is the 'tough as nails' veteran HC on the same page as his young GM? Can a few D-men or a GT go down to injury for the rest of the year(nod nod-wink wink)? Can the "play as hard as possible" players be played out of position with either too much or too little ice time? I still believe the team would have been much less effective defensively with 2-3 more kids in there all year on D on making mistakes and since all the kids I'm referring to are 21 or older,it probably helps em more than hurts em.......JMO. Bob, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. My position is that teams will never be able to have an attitude of going out to lose all their games for the sake of better draft picks because the individuals who make up the teams are always going to try hard in order to maintain their status as deserving of good contracts, but not for the sake of building the reputation of the team. I'll still maintain that there is little pride in being a Hawk among the roster players now. Team pride is built around success and getting accolades for winning playoff games. What is there for these guys to be proud about? I am not being critical of them at all. I believe that playing as hard as they can and hoping for success and wins for their own personal benefit is natural and a fine thing to do. Deep down, they have to know that this team will not be a success in the next few years, or for many years. But, they do hope that they will be around and making money, if not as Hawks, as NHL players, so they play hard knowing that, in the end, what matters is how they do as individuals because the team is too awful to achieve success. All they really care about is doing well and getting better contracts in their NHL futures. Because they are trying hard to maintain their chance for good contracts, they will win some games. The fans want what is best for the team now and in the future for the team's sake and not for some individual's sake. However, I do agree that all the individuals on the tanking teams are playing as hard as they can, but for their own sake, and not for the sake of some bottom dwelling team that is destined to remain in the deep, dark cellar away from the limelight for years to come. Do you really think that Johnny Hockey is proud to be a Blue Jacket? He is probably happy to be making a lot of dough, but it can't be any fun to go out, night after night, and get your collective asses kicked and to know that that situation will not be changing any time soon. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Mar 18, 2023 12:45:17 GMT -6
A guy has to start somewhere,KD dose come across as sharp and involved and Maciver/LR were both good decisions IMO. I would still feel much more confident if the young GM had a veteran PoHO,because as it stands,it's only Jaime,Danny and of course Rocky listed above him in the pecking order and baseball legend 'Hank' Greenberg(LOL)listed directly under him along with Maciver as associate GM's. I'm not sure this is helpful to the young GM. How many GM's regardless of experience have no hockey guy between them and the owner? Does every major hockey decision to come,and they'll be MANY ultimately rest on the shoulders of the young GM or do Danny and Jaime intervene? I thought the last GM did an acceptable to good job up until 4 years or so ago and I debated on his behalf back then. If the Org felt the need for change,they should have cleaned house completely back in '18' in the opinion of many including myself. Keeping one over the other with complete control could be the 'vote of confidence' that leads to complacency or the need to put your 'stamp' on the team with misguided moves and I believe we saw both in his last few years here. Also on KD's team is Cambell and Kunitz along with Maciver and the rest you mentioned. So there are ex-players to "help" him. I would have rather they kept Eddie to be that guy to advise KD. I'd rather that they had made Eddie the GM, if he would have taken the position. Of course, I don't know whether Eddie or KD would have been the better GM, but I do know that I would have confidence in the GM, if it was Eddie and not KD. |
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Post by nighbor on Mar 18, 2023 13:00:24 GMT -6
Experienced GM's are continually recycled including to the Maple Leaf's and they are without a championship since 1967. Experience does not guarantee success. A couple years is two and Stan ran the show from 09-10 through the championship years. It was not until after the 2017 season that we became mediocre. Second in 2016 and first in the west in 2017 is not mediocre. Let's be accurate....Stan took over a loaded team and reaped the benefits of previous GM's work. To be accurate: 1.-Smith-Pulford and Talon put together the 2010 Cup winning team and 2.-in 2013 there were only 8 returning players from the 2010 Cup. Not enough players to ice a team. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2023 13:32:15 GMT -6
come on man, stop moving the goal posts, these are the next 9 picks after crosby carey price had a short window of greatness and went to 1 cup final, beyond him only bobby ryan had decent success and that was his first few years and he's been irrelevant since... jack johnson has has a long career but not the kind a no. 3 pick is expected to have and was not a key part in any cup finally you get kopitar at 11 (outside the top 10, not in my original post about top 10) and you get cup success 2 Anaheim Bobby Ryan R Owen Sound Attack [OHL] 866 261 308 569 470 2020-21 1 3 Carolina Jack Johnson D U.S. Junior National Team [Intl] 1092 72 244 316 597 2022-23 1 4 Minnesota Benoit Pouliot L Sudbury Wolves [OHL] 625 130 133 263 371 2017-18 1 5 Montreal Carey Price G Tri-City Americans [WHL] 712 0 13 13 51 2021-22 1 6 Columbus Gilbert Brule C Vancouver Giants [WHL] 299 43 52 95 156 2013-14 1 7 Chicago Jack Skille R U.S. Junior National Team [Intl] 368 43 41 84 118 2016-17 1 8 San Jose Devin Setoguchi R Saskatoon Blades [WHL] 516 131 130 261 177 2016-17 1 9 Ottawa Brian Lee D Lincoln Stars [USHL] 209 5 31 36 124 2012-13 1 10 Vancouver Luc Bourdon I will say it again out of that list 6 of those 9 made it to the SCF. and won 5 cups. Disproving your point about missing the King. And I like how you moved the goal post suit yourself. Point being you can miss and it still works out. We would all like to get first pick lets pick up this discussion after we know where the hawks pick. LOL ok man, I stand by my original point. Not a single one of those guys was a key component in their teams Stanley Cup victory. Jack Johnson's 1 Cup came as a 3rd pair guy on the avalanche, he won zero with the Kings or Hurricanes. The rest of them were non-factors in their team's Cup victories. So this draft was a waste for their team and their team had to make up for it in other ways. My point, again, is if you have a golden opportunity to land a generational talent you had better do everything possible to land him or your road back to the Cup is more difficult. (Likely, much more). Of the 9 teams above only Chicago won a Cup. Jeez, I am sure those other 8 squads would have loved landing Crosby. |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Mar 18, 2023 14:20:50 GMT -6
2006 Canes won the cup , 2007 Ducks won the cup. I stand by my post. Of course they would love to have Sid all of them would have loved to have Kopitar also.
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Post by bigbarn27 on Mar 18, 2023 14:29:13 GMT -6
Also on KD's team is Cambell and Kunitz along with Maciver and the rest you mentioned. So there are ex-players to "help" him. I would have rather they kept Eddie to be that guy to advise KD. An improved group advising the young GM gives me some confidence but the ultimate decisions will have HIS name on em when it's all said and done with his only superiors who could intervene being Jaime and Danny.....that gives me none. Bob I am usure if this is correct I thought Jaime was just on the business side of things, I could be wrong, also guys are failing to mention the next GM Meghan. Also for the record Im not a KD fan heard him talk twice at prospect camp just dont like the guy but he has a plan and we dont have enough data to make an informed decision yet. I wish things would have gone differently but here we are. |
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Post by hsbob on Mar 18, 2023 15:43:30 GMT -6
An improved group advising the young GM gives me some confidence but the ultimate decisions will have HIS name on em when it's all said and done with his only superiors who could intervene being Jaime and Danny.....that gives me none. Bob I am usure if this is correct I thought Jaime was just on the business side of things, I could be wrong, also guys are failing to mention the next GM Meghan. Also for the record Im not a KD fan heard him talk twice at prospect camp just dont like the guy but he has a plan and we dont have enough data to make an informed decision yet. I wish things would have gone differently but here we are. My statement wasn't critical of KD,I was only listing the website's own executive structure and order,I would certainly hope Jaime is only on the business side of things and I wish her well. That leaves the '2017 Liquor Executive of the year'(look it up)as the only superior to KD unless Rocky has another 'senior moment' and gives one of these F'n kids the back of his hand at some point!LOFL!! IMO,the new GM gets at least three years from here and he probably should since the Org has 'made that bed' so to speak and we'll all have to 'lay in it'. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Mar 18, 2023 16:17:54 GMT -6
Let's be accurate....Stan took over a loaded team and reaped the benefits of previous GM's work. To be accurate: 1.-Smith-Pulford and Talon put together the 2010 Cup winning team and 2.-in 2013 there were only 8 returning players from the 2010 Cup. Not enough players to ice a team. You seem to be in the know on this issue. So, who were the 8 players that played on the 2010 team that were returning players on the 2013 team? How did each of them end up on the 2010 team? Depending on your answers, I might have another questions for you, but I will await your response. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Mar 18, 2023 17:51:47 GMT -6
Bob I am usure if this is correct I thought Jaime was just on the business side of things, I could be wrong, also guys are failing to mention the next GM Meghan. Also for the record Im not a KD fan heard him talk twice at prospect camp just dont like the guy but he has a plan and we dont have enough data to make an informed decision yet. I wish things would have gone differently but here we are. My statement wasn't critical of KD,I was only listing the website's own executive structure and order,I would certainly hope Jaime is only on the business side of things and I wish her well. That leaves the '2017 Liquor Executive of the year'(look it up)as the only superior to KD unless Rocky has another 'senior moment' and gives one of these F'n kids the back of his hand at some point!LOFL!! IMO,the new GM gets at least three years from here and he probably should since the Org has 'made that bed' so to speak and we'll all have to 'sleep in it'. Jaime basically has Jay Blunks old job. They never replaced McDonuts as President of Hockey Operations. Here is the heirarchy under KD: HOCKEY OPERATIONS LEADERSHIP Jeff Greenberg Associate General Manager Norm Maciver Associate General Manager Mark Eaton Asst. General Manager, Player Development Meghan Hunter Asst. General Manager, Hockey Operations Brian Campbell Advisor, Hockey Operations As I see it Greenberg and Maciver are on equal footing with KD. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Mar 18, 2023 17:54:39 GMT -6
To be accurate: 1.-Smith-Pulford and Talon put together the 2010 Cup winning team and 2.-in 2013 there were only 8 returning players from the 2010 Cup. Not enough players to ice a team. You seem to be in the know on this issue. So, who were the 8 players that played on the 2010 team that were returning players on the 2013 team? How did each of them end up on the 2010 team? Depending on your answers, I might have another questions for you, but I will await your response. I believe it was Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, Seabs, Hammer and Last i think was Bickel |
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Post by nighbor on Mar 18, 2023 19:51:29 GMT -6
To be accurate: 1.-Smith-Pulford and Talon put together the 2010 Cup winning team and 2.-in 2013 there were only 8 returning players from the 2010 Cup. Not enough players to ice a team. You seem to be in the know on this issue. So, who were the 8 players that played on the 2010 team that were returning players on the 2013 team? How did each of them end up on the 2010 team? Depending on your answers, I might have another questions for you, but I will await your response. There were actually 9. Hjalmarsson - Toews - Kane - drafted by Talon Keith - Seabrook - drafted by Smith Boland - Bickell - drafted by Pulford Sharp - from Philadelphia - in a trade - Talon traded Matt Ellison a Smith draft pick for him. Hossa - free agency - 2009 - Talon wanted him and Stan made it happen. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Mar 18, 2023 20:05:59 GMT -6
You seem to be in the know on this issue. So, who were the 8 players that played on the 2010 team that were returning players on the 2013 team? How did each of them end up on the 2010 team? Depending on your answers, I might have another questions for you, but I will await your response. There were actually 9. Hjalmarsson - Toews - Kane - drafted by Talon Keith - Seabrook - drafted by Smith Boland - Bickell - drafted by Pulford Sharp - from Philadelphia - in a trade - Talon traded Matt Ellison a Smith draft pick for him. Hossa - free agency - 2009 - Talon wanted him and Stan made it happen. I am not saying that Bowman never made any good decisions. But, given that 8 of the 9 core guys on those Hawk teams were brought to Chicago by GMs other than Bowman, it can be argued that the core of the 2013 team was constructed by other GMs and was the real strength of that team. I don't know what players Bowman brought to the 2013 team, but I doubt that they were the reasons the Hawks won the 2013 or 2015 Cups. Certainly he made some good picks/trades/free agent signings etc but the real stars of those shows were brought to the team by other GMs. Feel free to point out who Bowman brought to Chicago in 2013 and after to support a claim that he had major responsibility for winning those two Cups. I"ll listen and be educated. Thanks. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Mar 18, 2023 20:34:05 GMT -6
come on man, stop moving the goal posts, these are the next 9 picks after crosby carey price had a short window of greatness and went to 1 cup final, beyond him only bobby ryan had decent success and that was his first few years and he's been irrelevant since... jack johnson has has a long career but not the kind a no. 3 pick is expected to have and was not a key part in any cup finally you get kopitar at 11 (outside the top 10, not in my original post about top 10) and you get cup success 2 Anaheim Bobby Ryan R Owen Sound Attack [OHL] 866 261 308 569 470 2020-21 1 3 Carolina Jack Johnson D U.S. Junior National Team [Intl] 1092 72 244 316 597 2022-23 1 4 Minnesota Benoit Pouliot L Sudbury Wolves [OHL] 625 130 133 263 371 2017-18 1 5 Montreal Carey Price G Tri-City Americans [WHL] 712 0 13 13 51 2021-22 1 6 Columbus Gilbert Brule C Vancouver Giants [WHL] 299 43 52 95 156 2013-14 1 7 Chicago Jack Skille R U.S. Junior National Team [Intl] 368 43 41 84 118 2016-17 1 8 San Jose Devin Setoguchi R Saskatoon Blades [WHL] 516 131 130 261 177 2016-17 1 9 Ottawa Brian Lee D Lincoln Stars [USHL] 209 5 31 36 124 2012-13 1 10 Vancouver Luc Bourdon . Disproving your point about missing the King. And I like how you moved the goal post suit yourself. Point being you can miss and it still works out. We would all like to get first pick lets pick up this discussion after we know where the hawks pick. Making it to the cup finals doesn't mean much on a good team. Jordan Hendry made it to the cup finals. Adam Burish made it to the cup finals. Had Stan not traded out Cam Barker, he would have made it to a cup finals but wouldn't have contributed much. Does that justify the pick in retrospect? The best most off those guys were were 2nd tier guys, not the guys leading their franchises. |
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Post by nighbor on Mar 19, 2023 2:59:20 GMT -6
There were actually 9. Hjalmarsson - Toews - Kane - drafted by Talon Keith - Seabrook - drafted by Smith Boland - Bickell - drafted by Pulford Sharp - from Philadelphia - in a trade - Talon traded Matt Ellison a Smith draft pick for him. Hossa - free agency - 2009 - Talon wanted him and Stan made it happen. I am not saying that Bowman never made any good decisions. But, given that 8 of the 9 core guys on those Hawk teams were brought to Chicago by GMs other than Bowman, it can be argued that the core of the 2013 team was constructed by other GMs and was the real strength of that team. I don't know what players Bowman brought to the 2013 team, but I doubt that they were the reasons the Hawks won the 2013 or 2015 Cups. Certainly he made some good picks/trades/free agent signings etc but the real stars of those shows were brought to the team by other GMs. Feel free to point out who Bowman brought to Chicago in 2013 and after to support a claim that he had major responsibility for winning those two Cups. I"ll listen and be educated. Thanks. Firstly add Crawford to the list of other GM's best players as Crawford would have made the 2010 Cup team if it was not for the fact Niemi had to clear waivers to go up and down to the AHL. This gives you 10 players but I believe you need 22 or 23 players on the bench to start the game. Niemi and Hjalmarsson were offer sheeted after the 2010 Cup season and Stan could only keep one so he re-signed Hjalmarsson. In 2010 Stan drafted Andrew Shaw who some considered the heart and soul of the team. In 2012 Stan drafted Saad who complimented Toews and Hossa and they dominated the offensive zone with their cycle game and all were a threat to score. Kruger and Frolik were good third line players and on the PK. Stan added Oduya from the Jets and he and Hjalmarsson were a great second pairing. Added to Keith and Seabrook our top four were the envy of the league. Handzus was a great depth pickup for the playoffs [3g-8a for 11 pts]. 2015 - Richards FA, Teravainen through the draft and Vermette TDL. They all contributed in the playoffs. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Mar 19, 2023 8:05:22 GMT -6
I am not saying that Bowman never made any good decisions. But, given that 8 of the 9 core guys on those Hawk teams were brought to Chicago by GMs other than Bowman, it can be argued that the core of the 2013 team was constructed by other GMs and was the real strength of that team. I don't know what players Bowman brought to the 2013 team, but I doubt that they were the reasons the Hawks won the 2013 or 2015 Cups. Certainly he made some good picks/trades/free agent signings etc but the real stars of those shows were brought to the team by other GMs. Feel free to point out who Bowman brought to Chicago in 2013 and after to support a claim that he had major responsibility for winning those two Cups. I"ll listen and be educated. Thanks. Firstly add Crawford to the list of other GM's best players as Crawford would have made the 2010 Cup team if it was not for the fact Niemi had to clear waivers to go up and down to the AHL. This gives you 10 players but I believe you need 22 or 23 players on the bench to start the game. Niemi and Hjalmarsson were offer sheeted after the 2010 Cup season and Stan could only keep one so he re-signed Hjalmarsson. In 2010 Stan drafted Andrew Shaw who some considered the heart and soul of the team. In 2012 Stan drafted Saad who complimented Toews and Hossa and they dominated the offensive zone with their cycle game and all were a threat to score. Kruger and Frolik were good third line players and on the PK. Stan added Oduya from the Jets and he and Hjalmarsson were a great second pairing. Added to Keith and Seabrook our top four were the envy of the league. Handzus was a great depth pickup for the playoffs [3g-8a for 11 pts]. 2015 - Richards FA, Teravainen through the draft and Vermette TDL. They all contributed in the playoffs. As I said, there is no doubt that Bowman made some moves in his time as GM. Shaw, Saad and Oduya are good examples of those good moves as well as Vermette. However, the true stars of the 2013 and 2015 Cup teams were brought to Chicago by other GMs. The Bowman players you mentioned, while good and very helpful in the Cup efforts, could have been replaced by others who would have been selected/obtained in their stead; whereas the core of the 2010 Cup plus Crawford could not have been so replaced. But, anyway, thanks for responding and providing the info you gave. |
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Post by hsbob on Mar 19, 2023 10:29:33 GMT -6
My statement wasn't critical of KD,I was only listing the website's own executive structure and order,I would certainly hope Jaime is only on the business side of things and I wish her well. That leaves the '2017 Liquor Executive of the year'(look it up)as the only superior to KD unless Rocky has another 'senior moment' and gives one of these F'n kids the back of his hand at some point!LOFL!! IMO,the new GM gets at least three years from here and he probably should since the Org has 'made that bed' so to speak and we'll all have to 'sleep in it'. Jaime basically has Jay Blunks old job. They never replaced McDonuts as President of Hockey Operations. Here is the heirarchy under KD: HOCKEY OPERATIONS LEADERSHIP Jeff Greenberg Associate General Manager Norm Maciver Associate General Manager Mark Eaton Asst. General Manager, Player Development Meghan Hunter Asst. General Manager, Hockey Operations Brian Campbell Advisor, Hockey Operations As I see it Greenberg and Maciver are on equal footing with KD. I believe Jay Blunk was VP of business opps,he never held the title of 'President' of business opps as Jaime Faulkner does......the team's only titled 'President'. I'm sure she more than has her hand's full with the business side of things and has little if any say in hockey or FO decisions but she is above the GM in the 'pecking-order' for whatever that matters. With only Danny Boy as his other superior. They're saving a LOT of money by not replacing McD-bag and with a first time GM and HC too. I mentioned the associate GM's in another post,how about baseball legend 'Hank Greenberg'(LOL!) climbing the 'pecking-order' so quickly.....he must be a natural! |
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Post by hsbob on Mar 19, 2023 10:55:13 GMT -6
Firstly add Crawford to the list of other GM's best players as Crawford would have made the 2010 Cup team if it was not for the fact Niemi had to clear waivers to go up and down to the AHL. This gives you 10 players but I believe you need 22 or 23 players on the bench to start the game. Niemi and Hjalmarsson were offer sheeted after the 2010 Cup season and Stan could only keep one so he re-signed Hjalmarsson. In 2010 Stan drafted Andrew Shaw who some considered the heart and soul of the team. In 2012 Stan drafted Saad who complimented Toews and Hossa and they dominated the offensive zone with their cycle game and all were a threat to score. Kruger and Frolik were good third line players and on the PK. Stan added Oduya from the Jets and he and Hjalmarsson were a great second pairing. Added to Keith and Seabrook our top four were the envy of the league. Handzus was a great depth pickup for the playoffs [3g-8a for 11 pts]. 2015 - Richards FA, Teravainen through the draft and Vermette TDL. They all contributed in the playoffs. As I said, there is no doubt that Bowman made some moves in his time as GM. Shaw, Saad and Oduya are good examples of those good moves as well as Vermette. However, the true stars of the 2013 and 2015 Cup teams were brought to Chicago by other GMs. The Bowman players you mentioned, while good and very helpful in the Cup efforts, could have been replaced by others who would have been selected/obtained in their stead; whereas the core of the 2010 Cup plus Crawford could not have been so replaced. But, anyway, thanks for responding and providing the info you gave. Roszival and Handzus(who I thought was washed-up)both gave the team much needed physicality(along with Bickell)in the '13' PO's.....especially against Boston. I dunno if we win without the two big veterans but I do know it was a HELL of a lot easier with em! Winning in '15' without Richards and Vermette........I don't see it happening! Gotta give the 'devil' his due.....DAM devil!LOFL!!!!! |
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