debrincat

[hsbob]

Apr 24, 2022 7:34:38 GMT -6 mvr said:

Debrincat's production as a scorer has to be recognized in context. He is playing with Kane. Much of his production is not during five on five play. He does produce disportionate scoring against weaker opponents.

There are many elite closers in baseball who failed as starters. When they only have to pitch one inning, they can reduce the types of pitches they use, and they can pump the power.

Jorge Lopez in Baltimore is now a closer and already has four saves. He could not get through five innings a game when starting. He could emerge with very impressive numbers in his new role.

But let's remember to recognize the context of the job. Sure, not everyone can close a game, just like not everyone can produce as the primary gunman on a powerplay. But these are not the most difficult roles to fill in their respective sports.

I dunno what to say about a baseball reference but when the line does get shut down is it all on D-Cat? There's no bigger Strome defender than me but 39FO% didn't cut it last night and Kane's looked more engaged too. Opponents have nothing other than that line to concern themselves with defensively and it's catching up with all three guys as they finish out a meaningless string of games. 

Put D-Cat on a line with Lindholm and Tkachuk and he'd have 'Johnny Hockey' type numbers this year. Put Kubalik on that line with Kane and Strome instead of D-Cat and you'll have a lotta disappointment. 

[Nikos]

Apr 24, 2022 5:20:55 GMT -6 mvr said:

Two of the NHL's greatest scoring wingers, Mike Bossy and Guy Lafleur, died this week.

I grew up watching both, and they dominated their eras. Bossy, like Debrincat, had the elite shot; Lafleur could skate past anyone.

What struck me looking over their career numbers were the playoff statistics. If anything, both of these Hall of Famers produced more when the games actually mattered and checking became tighter.

To be fair to Debrincat and Strome, these players have not experienced much playoff hockey. Nevertheless, they have played in pressure filled, heavy checking games. So far, the results are not encouraging.

Debrincat has 76 points this year, which is way more than I would have predicted a few years back. But some perspective is in order here. Twenty eight of these points have come on the powerplay (where he averages about three-and-a-half minutes a game). Debrincat is also an elite scorer three-on-three in overtime (which is when he has scored four of his goals). He also plays most often with Hall of Famer and generational talent Patrick Kane.

The Strome line dominates against weaker teams and terrible defence. But they can get easily shut down against the bigger and better teams. Without Kane, I question how much either Strome or Debrincat would manage on their own, especially in the playoffs.

They get three or four points one night, and then nothing. And then nothing.

This is not Mike Bossy or Guy Lafleur. It is Jeff Skinner.

MVR, you have raised valid and fair points on not paying and including NTC with Debricant and moving him for assets, most I believe have no issues with those opinions. Let's stop denigrating the kid by saying he plays with superstars (btw, most other elite scorers do as well), his stats are overvalued due to playing on the power play, scores against bad teams, and 3 on 3 overtime. The kid has already overcome a lot with the whole size issue growing up, is a leader on a team and keeps improving as we are seeing playmaking skills this year.

Ok we get your point you do not want to pay him as elite scorers on a team that is rebuilding team probably from a big picture outlook does not make sense, we should though stop trying to dimmish his accomplishments with cheap shots.  

[mvr]

When Kubalik was being used as the primary gunman on the powerplay (in his rookie year), he produced 30 plus goals.

He now plays 13 minutes a game, and gets almost zero powerplay time. Usage and opportunity play a big role here.

Do I believe Kubalik would put up the same numbers as Debrincat if given the same opportunity? No I do not.

But it would not be that far off. If Debrincat was playing 13 minutes/game like Kubalik, what would his numbers look like?

[Nikos]

Apr 24, 2022 11:36:47 GMT -6 mvr said:

When Kubalik was being used as the primary gunman on the powerplay (in his rookie year), he produced 30 plus goals.

He now plays 13 minutes a game, and gets almost zero powerplay time. Usage and opportunity play a big role here.

Do I believe Kubalik would put up the same numbers as Debrincat if given the same opportunity? No I do not.

But it would not be that far off. If Debrincat was playing 13 minutes/game like Kubalik, what would his numbers look like?

His not playing 13 minutes because he has EARNED the ice time, is a leader on the team and who cares. Something Kubalik should try to emulated.

[mvr]

Kubalik's decline and Debrincat's re-engagement are connected, just the same as Debrincat's decline two years ago was connected to Kubalik's emergence.

They do the same job and are effective when used in that role. There is really only room for one of them.

In Kubalik's first year here, he started as a support guy, mostly on the third line. Debrincat played on the first line and first unit powerplay. About half way through the season, Colliton switched their roles (a move I felt at the time was long overdue).

Kubalik went on a tear. Debrincat continued his poor season.

Sure, ice time is earned. A player makes his opportunities. Kubalik does not deserve any more than he is getting right now. He has played himself off the team. But in fairness, he has not really been given much of a chance the past couple of years to do what he is exceptionally good at - shooting the puck from the high slot. When he plays, it is mostly on a checking line (which is similar to how Colliton used Dylan Strome).

Kane can't play all the time with everyone, and he really is the only good set-up guy on the team.

Most here feel no hesitation in taking pot shots at just every player - including the veteran stars who earned the team three cups. But Debrincat for whatever reason is off limits. I don't get it. The team should be having big conversations about this player more than any other. He is the team's prime trade chip, and their most expensive re-sign moving forward.

[BigT]

Apr 24, 2022 10:57:30 GMT -6 Nikos said:

I also believe the goalies now are much better than when Lafleur and Bossy were playing. Look at some of the highlights of their goals, particularly when shooting from outside the circles with no screen and the goalies just whiffing at the puck. To be clear both are elite scorers and some of the best the game has ever witnessed, just my opinion it was little easier to score in those eras and the goalies played a factor.

I agree all around with what most are saying. Especially different eras. Lafleur literally smoked and drank his way through the off season. Used training camp to get in shape. I think now a days they wouldn’t do that. They’d be in shape like the rest of them.

Dcat is a solid scorer, no doubt. However, like I’ve said all along. If the return is acceptable for him. I make the deal. I don’t see the logic in trading guys just to trade them.

Regardless of what some other player did, is it worth it to keep Dcat? I only say no because the Hawks would be getting multiple assets for him and they can help turn this around quicker than one asset. When the GM says there’s not much in the pipeline. They’re gonna have to look at getting younger, and better. I just don’t see it happening without more assets!!!

[mvr]

Lafleur smoked in between shifts. Those were the days!!

[T-man2010]

Apr 24, 2022 15:11:52 GMT -6 mvr said:

Lafleur smoked in between shifts. Those were the days!!

I sat next to the Hawks bench in St. Louis for a game and Savvy smoked on the bench during the game.
As well as telling Orval Tessia to STFU.

[hsbob]

Apr 24, 2022 15:07:37 GMT -6 mvr said:

Kubalik's decline and Debrincat's re-engagement are connected, just the same as Debrincat's decline two years ago was connected to Kubalik's emergence.

They do the same job and are effective when used in that role. There is really only room for one of them.

In Kubalik's first year here, he started as a support guy, mostly on the third line. Debrincat played on the first line and first unit powerplay. About half way through the season, Colliton switched their roles (a move I felt at the time was long overdue).

Kubalik went on a tear. Debrincat continued his poor season.

Sure, ice time is earned. A player makes his opportunities. Kubalik does not deserve any more than he is getting right now. He has played himself off the team. But in fairness, he has not really been given much of a chance the past couple of years to do what he is exceptionally good at - shooting the puck from the high slot. When he plays, it is mostly on a checking line (which is similar to how Colliton used Dylan Strome).

Kane can't play all the time with everyone, and he really is the only good set-up guy on the team.

Most here feel no hesitation in taking pot shots at just every player - including the veteran stars who earned the team three cups. But Debrincat for whatever reason is off limits. I don't get it. The team should be having big conversations about this player more than any other. He is the team's prime trade chip, and their most expensive re-sign moving forward.

I thought he was Skinner.......now he's not even Kubalik? The Kid's having a career year on an awful team and your criticism increases? That's clownish!

Kubalik caught lightning in a bottle one year when JT set him up point blank about a half dozen times a game.....shit before......shit since. He has a decent one-timer when set up,point blank and that's all he has.  

D-Cat was coming off a truly elite 41 goal sophomore season @21 and he was "long overdue" for demotions? Only you and Potter!

DeBrincat's decline? LOFL!!! You ran with a stupid coaching decision when you started this thread and that's still the only sub-par season that you can point to.....as I predicted.


You've been taking "pot shots" at the kid since you started this thread,as I said and all the kid has done is excell.....at every level......with or without Kane or McJesus. 
 

[Nikos]

Apr 24, 2022 15:07:37 GMT -6 mvr said:

Kubalik's decline and Debrincat's re-engagement are connected, just the same as Debrincat's decline two years ago was connected to Kubalik's emergence.

They do the same job and are effective when used in that role. There is really only room for one of them.

In Kubalik's first year here, he started as a support guy, mostly on the third line. Debrincat played on the first line and first unit powerplay. About half way through the season, Colliton switched their roles (a move I felt at the time was long overdue).

Kubalik went on a tear. Debrincat continued his poor season.

Sure, ice time is earned. A player makes his opportunities. Kubalik does not deserve any more than he is getting right now. He has played himself off the team. But in fairness, he has not really been given much of a chance the past couple of years to do what he is exceptionally good at - shooting the puck from the high slot. When he plays, it is mostly on a checking line (which is similar to how Colliton used Dylan Strome).

Kane can't play all the time with everyone, and he really is the only good set-up guy on the team.

Most here feel no hesitation in taking pot shots at just every player - including the veteran stars who earned the team three cups. But Debrincat for whatever reason is off limits. I don't get it. The team should be having big conversations about this player more than any other. He is the team's prime trade chip, and their most expensive re-sign moving forward.

Everyone on the team should be held accountable, including Debrincat. So who fault is with these terrible starts the last dozen games or so, no shots until 1st period is half over or less than ten shots halfway through the game has been the norm. In several interviews that I have seen recently with Debrincat you can tell he is frustrated and he includes himself as needing to do better. He mentions the fans and how the team is disappointing them. The Kid cares, something maybe Kubalik should try to learn and several others as well.

Kubalik is not the same player as Debrincat. Sure he has a nice shot, but the comparison stops there. He rarely plays short handed, never is out there in a close game, do not see him as of the top three in shootouts, does not have the playmaking skills that the cat is now added to his game, and does not have the same finishing skills as the cat. The coaches do not trust him late in games, maybe King and coaching staff trying to send a message, he continues to be in and out to the lineup. There has to better something more here, it just not as simple, well trade spots with Debrincat and Kubalik is a stud again.

I have to believe KD has plan (he better) and I am sure along with the decisions on 19 & 88, Debrincat's 's RFA status and potential trade or long-term possibilities are being discussed.

[mvr]

"I thought he was Skinner.......now he's not even Kubalik?"

Here we go again. Didn't say it. Don't think it. Yet more Scarecrow BS.

What I actually wrote is that Debrincat is the same type of player as Kubalik. Both do the same job.

Clearly Debrincat has proven to be better than Kubalik (though for an extended several month stretch he was not two years ago - which is why the coach demoted him soon after I started this thread). Playing time is earned.

He is also paid double.

Debrincat now has a grand total of one goal (during three-on-three play) in the past ten - despite first line/first powerplay unit time for seven of them.

Perhaps it is time to see what Kubalik or someone more deserving can do on that first line. In fairness, the team can't do much worse. We all know how many points Debrincat and Strome produced in their three game stretch without Kane last week.

[mvr]

To correct one more Scarecrow misinformation: instead of ..... "ran with with a stupid coaching decision."

.... it should be - encouraged the coach to demote a player who was underperforming..... Colliton demoted Debrincat well after I started the thread.

To my mind, playing time is earned based on performance.

[hsbob]

Apr 25, 2022 8:11:32 GMT -6 mvr said:

"I thought he was Skinner.......now he's not even Kubalik?"

Here we go again. Didn't say it. Don't think it. Yet more Scarecrow BS.

What I actually wrote is that Debrincat is the same type of player as Kubalik. Both do the same job.

Clearly Debrincat has proven to be better than Kubalik (though for an extended several month stretch he was not two years ago - which is why the coach demoted him soon after I started this thread). Playing time is earned.

He is also paid double.

Debrincat now has a grand total of one goal (during three-on-three play) in the past ten - despite first line/first powerplay unit time for seven of them.

Perhaps it is time to see what Kubalik or someone more deserving can do on that first line. In fairness, the team can't do much worse. We all know how many points Debrincat and Strome produced in their three game stretch without Kane last week.

You compared him to both players and call him "the same type of player as Kubalik" in this very post but yeah......I made it all up.

You started this thread in January of the year Potter F'd him around on a checking line after a 41 goal season because you finally saw an opening to dish on the kid.......his play before and since has been pure elite.

NOlander earned his top six minutes? SUCKura?  Every other AHL reject that got top six minutes that year still in the league?

You just called for Kubalik taking D-Cat's spot and you'll call me a strawman when I remind you.

Maybe try JT with Kane and Cat or I know.......what if we had Zegras to put there?

[hsbob]

Apr 25, 2022 8:23:32 GMT -6 mvr said:

To correct one more Scarecrow misinformation: instead of ..... "ran with with a stupid coaching decision."

.... it should be - encouraged the coach to demote a player who was underperforming..... Colliton demoted Debrincat well after I started the thread.

To my mind, playing time is earned based on performance.

Potter demoted D-Cat and Strome both early in that season and you started the thread in January. NOlander and SUCKura earned top six minutes?


 

[mvr]

Nylander averaged 12 minutes and 8 seconds a game the year he played. This is fourth line minutes. Sikura barely played.

D-Cat was not performing for weeks that season. I started the thread in January after I lost patience with the player's game. At the time, I suspected it was due to the pressure of the contract.

Instead of twisting someone's opinions, why not just engage with their actual ideas?

Consistently arguing against strawman's opinions you make up hardly seems like a good use of our time.

[mvr]

But if you are insinuating (as you do) that I preferred the coach playing Sikura or Nylander (at any time) to Debrincat, you would once again be making another Scarecrow argument (in bad faith).

I never liked Sikura, and I was not excited at any point about Nylander either.  Never did I suggest Nylander "earned" ice time.   And I have said so here repeatedly - typically in response to a post from you.

[mvr]

Pointing out (correctly) that Kubalik and Debrincat play similar roles (as primary shooters on a scoring line/powerplay) is not the same thing as suggesting the two players do that job equally well.

Of course, one is paid $6.4 M. The other will be lucky to find employment next year.

What I would like is for Kane to play with Toews the rest of the way, whether it be with Kubalik or someone else.    Let's see what Debrincat and Strome can do without Kane.

[Nikos]

Apr 25, 2022 8:23:32 GMT -6 mvr said:

To correct one more Scarecrow misinformation: instead of ..... "ran with with a stupid coaching decision."

.... it should be - encouraged the coach to demote a player who was underperforming..... Colliton demoted Debrincat well after I started the thread.

To my mind, playing time is earned based on performance.

If paying time is earned based on performance you seem to say now let's see what Kubalik can do or someone more deserving. In your mind has Kubalik earned the playing time? You already said Kubalik has played himself off the team or lucky to find employment next year. Is that someone that has earned more playing time based on performance?


Do you feel Debrincat is the main reason the powerplay in the last 5 games of almost 30 minutes of powerplay has generated only 3 high danger chances. I did not read or see you mention lets see if someone else should replace Strome, Jones, Raddysh, Gustafsson, only lets give Kubalik a chance he plays the same role as Debrincat.

[mvr]

No, Niko, I do not think Kubalik is more deserving. In fact, I believe he has played himself off the team.

But in fairness, he has not been provided with much opportunity the past two years to play his game. He is a shooter who needs to be set up for one-timers. That's his game. He is not going to score without someone setting him up. He needs to play on the powerplay to be useful. He is not getting that ice time. Has he "deserved" it? No, he has not.

The guy I'd like to see for a few games in that spot is Raddysh. Has he "deserved" it? Not really. There is no "deserving" player right now. The team is losing just about every game.

My reason for switching lines is primarily because I want to see Debrincat without Kane for an extended stretch. It is important moving forward to know what Debrincat can do before offering him a big contract.



Ben Pope
@benpopecst
·
27m
Alex DeBrincat said he's "open to talking whenever they are" about a contract extension when his extension window opens this summer.

[mvr]

Rob Brown
1988-89 Pittsburgh Penguins NHL 68 49 66 115 118

Jonathan Cheechoo
San Jose Sharks NHL 82 56 37 93


Different era of course. Brown/Cheechoo is not Debrincat, and I am not suggesting this....

What I am pointing out is that consistent playing on the same line and powerplay as a Hall of Fame type superstar does impact scoring numbers. Brown and Cheecho were career journeymen who put up huge numbers for a short time playing with Mario Lemieux and Joe Thornton.

Kane remains one of the best pure passers in the entire game.

[nighbor]

Apr 24, 2022 7:34:38 GMT -6 mvr said:

Debrincat's production as a scorer has to be recognized in context. He is playing with Kane. Much of his production is not during five on five play. He does produce disportionate scoring against weaker opponents.

There are many elite closers in baseball who failed as starters. When they only have to pitch one inning, they can reduce the types of pitches they use, and they can pump the power.

Jorge Lopez in Baltimore is now a closer and already has four saves. He could not get through five innings a game when starting. He could emerge with very impressive numbers in his new role.

But let's remember to recognize the context of the job. Sure, not everyone can close a game, just like not everyone can produce as the primary gunman on a powerplay. But these are not the most difficult roles to fill in their respective sports.

D-Cat is a finisher and it doesn't matter who passes it to him.  If it was all Kane why did Sikura still suck and not score when they played together.  Meaning no disrespect to Kane but he has been fortunate in the later part of his carrier to play with first Panarin and then DeBrincat two gifted goal scorers. They took pressure off Kane as other teams had to worry about them as well.  I believe all players produce better against weaker teams so that matters not.

[Nikos]

Apr 25, 2022 11:52:30 GMT -6 mvr said:

No, Niko, I do not think Kubalik is more deserving. In fact, I believe he has played himself off the team.

But in fairness, he has not been provided with much opportunity the past two years to play his game. He is a shooter who needs to be set up for one-timers. That's his game. He is not going to score without someone setting him up. He needs to play on the powerplay to be useful. He is not getting that ice time. Has he "deserved" it? No, he has not.

The guy I'd like to see for a few games in that spot is Raddysh. Has he "deserved" it? Not really. There is no "deserving" player right now. The team is losing just about every game.

My reason for switching lines is primarily because I want to see Debrincat without Kane for an extended stretch. It is important moving forward to know what Debrincat can do before offering him a big contract.



Ben Pope
@benpopecst
·
27m
Alex DeBrincat said he's "open to talking whenever they are" about a contract extension when his extension window opens this summer.

Ok, but the bigger question is then if that is Kubalik's strength why does the coaching staff not use him there now and before. Clearly overall Debrincat is the better player does he then sit because you have similar players on the powerplay. I do not think that is fair to Debrincat. That is not how you reward your All Star. See if you were going to do this it should have possibly happened before the trade deadline when you were possibly trying to move Kubalik, you certainly do not do it now. I am sure Kubalik is practicing on the powerplay in practice and the coaches for whatever reason do not think he deserves first line powerplay minutes. You can easily lose a team if players and veterans in particular see others given more ice team for no good reason.


I agree with your point that nobody really deserves a chance based on their recent play. Btw, they tried to unite the Erie Otters line and it did not last very long, because King was trying to win games rather then give chemistry a chance.

[mvr]

Apr 25, 2022 14:26:19 GMT -6 Nikos said:

Apr 25, 2022 11:52:30 GMT -6 mvr said:

No, Niko, I do not think Kubalik is more deserving. In fact, I believe he has played himself off the team.

But in fairness, he has not been provided with much opportunity the past two years to play his game. He is a shooter who needs to be set up for one-timers. That's his game. He is not going to score without someone setting him up. He needs to play on the powerplay to be useful. He is not getting that ice time. Has he "deserved" it? No, he has not.

The guy I'd like to see for a few games in that spot is Raddysh. Has he "deserved" it? Not really. There is no "deserving" player right now. The team is losing just about every game.

My reason for switching lines is primarily because I want to see Debrincat without Kane for an extended stretch. It is important moving forward to know what Debrincat can do before offering him a big contract.



Ben Pope
@benpopecst
·
27m
Alex DeBrincat said he's "open to talking whenever they are" about a contract extension when his extension window opens this summer.

Ok, but the bigger question is then if that is Kubalik's strength why does the coaching staff not use him there now and before. Clearly overall Debrincat is the better player does he then sit becomes you have similar players on the powerplay. I do not think that is fair to Debrincat. That is not how you reward your All Star. See if you were going to do this it should have possibly happened before the trade deadline when you were possibly trying to move Kubalik, you certainly do not do it now. I am sure Kubalik is practicing on the powerplay in practice and the coaches for whatever reason do not think he deserves first line powerplay minutes. You can easily lose a team if players and veterans in particular see others given more ice team for no good reason.


I agree with your point that nobody really deserves a chance based on their recent play. Btw, they tried to unite the Erie Otters line and it did not last very long, because King was trying to win games rather then give chemistry a chance.

My feeling is that there is no real room for both Kubalik and Debrincat on the same team.

Bowman should have moved Kubalik after Debrincat rediscovered his game last year. The general manager waited too long, and the result is that Kubalik's confidence is now shot - most likely irreparably - because of how the coaches used him. He is a shooter - not a checker or a two-way defensive forward.

If the plan is to trade Debrincat (which I strongly doubt will happen), I might attempt to salvage Kubalik next year, though he would have to accept a pay cut and a short term deal). Kubalik did score 30 goals in much less than a full season two years ago, and he did not get big minutes or front line power play time until the second half of that season. He might still be able to do the job adequately if given the opportunity. Clearly, he won't get it with Debrincat here.

I see a similar issue with Borgstrom and Strome. A coach can use one or the other, but not both, because their games are too similar (finesse top-six puck distributors). Borgstrom beat out Strome for the job early in the season (likely because of pressure from the front office). Colliton used Strome as a checker, but he did not fit in that role and so he was regularly healthy scratched. After the coaching change, King gradually turned to Strome instead. Borgstrom's game never really got established.

Was Borgstrom given enough time? I don't know. My feeling is that the star players, Kane and Debrincat, preferred Strome.

[mvr]

Apr 25, 2022 14:00:14 GMT -6 nighbor said:

Apr 24, 2022 7:34:38 GMT -6 mvr said:

Debrincat's production as a scorer has to be recognized in context. He is playing with Kane. Much of his production is not during five on five play. He does produce disportionate scoring against weaker opponents.

There are many elite closers in baseball who failed as starters. When they only have to pitch one inning, they can reduce the types of pitches they use, and they can pump the power.

Jorge Lopez in Baltimore is now a closer and already has four saves. He could not get through five innings a game when starting. He could emerge with very impressive numbers in his new role.

But let's remember to recognize the context of the job. Sure, not everyone can close a game, just like not everyone can produce as the primary gunman on a powerplay. But these are not the most difficult roles to fill in their respective sports.

D-Cat is a finisher and it doesn't matter who passes it to him.  If it was all Kane why did Sikura still suck and not score when they played together.  Meaning no disrespect to Kane but he has been fortunate in the later part of his carrier to play with first Panarin and then DeBrincat two gifted goal scorers. They took pressure off Kane as other teams had to worry about them as well.  I believe all players produce better against weaker teams so that matters not.

There is only one guy on the entire team who can pass and that is Kane. He might be the single best puck distributer I have ever seen. Whoever he plays with turns into a goal scorer.   But to your point: Debrincat has a fabulous shot, no doubt about it.   This team - and Kane's scoring numbers - would be much worse this year without his gun.

[nighbor]

Apr 25, 2022 16:47:43 GMT -6 mvr said:

Apr 25, 2022 14:00:14 GMT -6 nighbor said:

D-Cat is a finisher and it doesn't matter who passes it to him.  If it was all Kane why did Sikura still suck and not score when they played together.  Meaning no disrespect to Kane but he has been fortunate in the later part of his carrier to play with first Panarin and then DeBrincat two gifted goal scorers. They took pressure off Kane as other teams had to worry about them as well.  I believe all players produce better against weaker teams so that matters not.

There is only one guy on the entire team who can pass and that is Kane. He might be the single best puck distributer I have ever seen. Whoever he plays with turns into a goal scorer.   But to your point: Debrincat has a fabulous shot, no doubt about it.   This team - and Kane's scoring numbers - would be much worse this year without his gun.

I would say that Toews is not too shabby in the passing department and he distributes the puck with the best of them.

[Nikos]

Apr 25, 2022 16:37:27 GMT -6 mvr said:

Apr 25, 2022 14:26:19 GMT -6 Nikos said:

Ok, but the bigger question is then if that is Kubalik's strength why does the coaching staff not use him there now and before. Clearly overall Debrincat is the better player does he then sit becomes you have similar players on the powerplay. I do not think that is fair to Debrincat. That is not how you reward your All Star. See if you were going to do this it should have possibly happened before the trade deadline when you were possibly trying to move Kubalik, you certainly do not do it now. I am sure Kubalik is practicing on the powerplay in practice and the coaches for whatever reason do not think he deserves first line powerplay minutes. You can easily lose a team if players and veterans in particular see others given more ice team for no good reason.


I agree with your point that nobody really deserves a chance based on their recent play. Btw, they tried to unite the Erie Otters line and it did not last very long, because King was trying to win games rather then give chemistry a chance.

My feeling is that there is no real room for both Kubalik and Debrincat on the same team.

Bowman should have moved Kubalik after Debrincat rediscovered his game last year. The general manager waited too long, and the result is that Kubalik's confidence is now shot - most likely irreparably - because of how the coaches used him. He is a shooter - not a checker or a two-way defensive forward.

If the plan is to trade Debrincat (which I strongly doubt will happen), I might attempt to salvage Kubalik next year, though he would have to accept a pay cut and a short term deal). Kubalik did score 30 goals in much less than a full season two years ago, and he did not get big minutes or front line power play time until the second half of that season. He might still be able to do the job adequately if given the opportunity. Clearly, he won't get it with Debrincat here.

I see a similar issue with Borgstrom and Strome. A coach can use one or the other, but not both, because their games are too similar (finesse top-six puck distributors). Borgstrom beat out Strome for the job early in the season (likely because of pressure from the front office). Colliton used Strome as a checker, but he did not fit in that role and so he was regularly healthy scratched. After the coaching change, King gradually turned to Strome instead. Borgstrom's game never really got established.

Was Borgstrom given enough time? I don't know. My feeling is that the star players, Kane and Debrincat, preferred Strome.

Come on MVR, really?  Choice between the Cat & Kubs as a shooter? Sure Kubs has a good shot and that is where any type of discussion ends. He does not posses the quick release and the accuracy that the Cat has and continues to show. That quick release is the difference between being a goal or the goalie making a save. The color guy (Moore) talked about the release in last night's game. I believe he used the word elite release and also called the Cat a superstar. Here is a thought why is Kubalik not trying to improve or add to his game?

I am not even going to try and make any comments regarding your Strome and Borgstrom analogy as I have not really followed Borgstrom that close. Maybe some others might have some opinion. The only thing I will say regarding Strome he sees the ice very well, good passer, great chemistry with Debrincant and has taken the time to improve his game. I also believe he has shown mental toughness and resolve with the benching and trade speculation.

[mvr]

Apr 26, 2022 7:39:03 GMT -6 Nikos said:

Apr 25, 2022 16:37:27 GMT -6 mvr said:

My feeling is that there is no real room for both Kubalik and Debrincat on the same team.

Bowman should have moved Kubalik after Debrincat rediscovered his game last year. The general manager waited too long, and the result is that Kubalik's confidence is now shot - most likely irreparably - because of how the coaches used him. He is a shooter - not a checker or a two-way defensive forward.

If the plan is to trade Debrincat (which I strongly doubt will happen), I might attempt to salvage Kubalik next year, though he would have to accept a pay cut and a short term deal). Kubalik did score 30 goals in much less than a full season two years ago, and he did not get big minutes or front line power play time until the second half of that season. He might still be able to do the job adequately if given the opportunity. Clearly, he won't get it with Debrincat here.

I see a similar issue with Borgstrom and Strome. A coach can use one or the other, but not both, because their games are too similar (finesse top-six puck distributors). Borgstrom beat out Strome for the job early in the season (likely because of pressure from the front office). Colliton used Strome as a checker, but he did not fit in that role and so he was regularly healthy scratched. After the coaching change, King gradually turned to Strome instead. Borgstrom's game never really got established.

Was Borgstrom given enough time? I don't know. My feeling is that the star players, Kane and Debrincat, preferred Strome.

Come on MVR, really?  Choice between the Cat & Kubs as a shooter? Sure Kubs has a good shot and that is where any type of discussion ends. He does not posses the quick release and the accuracy that the Cat has and continues to show. That quick release is the difference between being a goal or the goalie making a save. The color guy (Moore) talked about the release in last night's game. I believe he used the word elite release and also called the Cat a superstar. Here is a thought why is Kubalik not trying to improve or add to his game?

I am not even going to try and make any comments regarding your Strome and Borgstrom analogy as I have not really followed Borgstrom that close. Maybe some others might have some opinion. The only thing I will say regarding Strome he sees the ice very well, good passer, great chemistry with Debrincant and has taken the time to improve his game. I also believe he has shown mental toughness and resolve with the benching and trade speculation.

Again, I am not suggesting the two players have the same talent. My point is that they do the same job.

To be useful, Kubalik needs to play with a playmaker who can set him up for one-timers. He needs to play on the first unit powerplay. When he plays with checkers or in a shut down role, he doesn't produce.

Debrincat needs also to play with a playmaker to maximize his effectiveness. He also needs to be the primary shooter on the powerplay. Kubalik is redundant with Debrincat here. Borgstrom is redundant with Strome here.

[BigT]

MVR. With that last post. I see what you’re saying. Borgstrom is the same type player as Strome, just not as good. He would need Stromes slot to see any results. But probably not Strome style results.

Same with Kubalik and Dcat. Dcat can get 40+ goals playing with Kane. Kubalik will get 30.

One thing I will say is this. I’m always weary of guys who get 30 goals and 16 assists. Kinda like Dick Panik and many others. I’m not saying they can’t be anything. But they usually fall off. Especially when opposing coaches have game plans for him!!!

[mvr]

One of the few smart moves Bowman made as general manager was to find a taker for the way overpaid Brian Campbell in 2011.

The issue with Campbell at the time was not just the excessive contract and the Hawks' cap squeeze situation. It was also that the coach had too many of the same type player on the back end at that time.

Duncan Keith was clearly emerging as the go-to left shot powerplay quarterback. Both he and Nick Leddy needed ice time to maximize their value. If Campbell stayed, Keith and Leddy would not be able to maximize their greatest strengths.

Coaches need different types of players for various roles. At most, a team needs two offensive-minded defencemen.

There is a reason why Henri Jokiharju was traded. Bowman believed he had a better right-shot defenceman in the system in Adam Boqvist.

[hsbob]

Apr 25, 2022 9:57:04 GMT -6 mvr said:

Nylander averaged 12 minutes and 8 seconds a game the year he played. This is fourth line minutes. Sikura barely played.

D-Cat was not performing for weeks that season. I started the thread in January after I lost patience with the player's game. At the time, I suspected it was due to the pressure of the contract.

Instead of twisting someone's opinions, why not just engage with their actual ideas?

Consistently arguing against strawman's opinions you make up hardly seems like a good use of our time.

I might exaggerate to make an occasional point but I do not put words in you mouth mvr! 

Will I be a 'strawman' if I vehemently disagree with "Sikura barely played"? I recall him skating with K&T for long stretches and Potter keeping him there regardless if he produced a sniff or not. He and NOlander never could achieve big ice time due to little to no special team play,both might have seen a bit of PP time but even Potter wouldn't trust either to kill. 

I recall both failures getting more than their share of ice time with better players but maybe I'm wrong......somebody got D-Cat's top six minutes back in '19-20'.