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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 8:03:55 GMT -6
MVR. With that last post. I see what you’re saying. Borgstrom is the same type player as Strome, just not as good. He would need Stromes slot to see any results. But probably not Strome style results. Same with Kubalik and Dcat. Dcat can get 40+ goals playing with Kane. Kubalik will get 30. One thing I will say is this. I’m always weary of guys who get 30 goals and 16 assists. Kinda like Dick Panik and many others. I’m not saying they can’t be anything. But they usually fall off. Especially when opposing coaches have game plans for him!!! You got it!! |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 8:15:51 GMT -6
Nylander averaged 12 minutes and 8 seconds a game the year he played. This is fourth line minutes. Sikura barely played. D-Cat was not performing for weeks that season. I started the thread in January after I lost patience with the player's game. At the time, I suspected it was due to the pressure of the contract. Instead of twisting someone's opinions, why not just engage with their actual ideas? Consistently arguing against strawman's opinions you make up hardly seems like a good use of our time. I might exaggerate to make an occasional point but I do not put words in you mouth mvr! Will I be a 'strawman' if I vehemently disagree with "Sikura barely played"? I recall him skating with K&T for long stretches and Potter keeping him there regardless if he produced a sniff or not. He and NOlander never could achieve big ice time due to little to no special team play,both might have seen a bit of PP time but even Potter wouldn't trust either to kill. I recall both failures getting more than their share of ice time with better players but maybe I'm wrong......somebody got D-Cat's top six minutes back in '19-20'. When you suggest I make an argument that I don't, then you are playing the Strawman game. When you twist an argument to create a false narrative about my position on an issue, you are creating a Strawman. This is my only issue, here. I enjoy the debates, but it frustrates me when my views are deliberately (or accidentally) misrepresented for exaggeration or mockery. I think Debrincat is a fine player - in fact, one of best pure shooters I have ever seen. I just don't believe he carries the same value as others do, nor do I believe a rebuilding team starts with this type of player. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 8:20:12 GMT -6
Dylan Sikura played nine games in 2019-20.
He didn't steal Debrincat's icetime.
Kubalik did. He scored 30 goals in 68 games (most in the second half of the year).
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Post by hsbob on Apr 26, 2022 8:21:43 GMT -6
My feeling is that there is no real room for both Kubalik and Debrincat on the same team. Bowman should have moved Kubalik after Debrincat rediscovered his game last year. The general manager waited too long, and the result is that Kubalik's confidence is now shot - most likely irreparably - because of how the coaches used him. He is a shooter - not a checker or a two-way defensive forward. If the plan is to trade Debrincat (which I strongly doubt will happen), I might attempt to salvage Kubalik next year, though he would have to accept a pay cut and a short term deal). Kubalik did score 30 goals in much less than a full season two years ago, and he did not get big minutes or front line power play time until the second half of that season. He might still be able to do the job adequately if given the opportunity. Clearly, he won't get it with Debrincat here. I see a similar issue with Borgstrom and Strome. A coach can use one or the other, but not both, because their games are too similar (finesse top-six puck distributors). Borgstrom beat out Strome for the job early in the season (likely because of pressure from the front office). Colliton used Strome as a checker, but he did not fit in that role and so he was regularly healthy scratched. After the coaching change, King gradually turned to Strome instead. Borgstrom's game never really got established. Was Borgstrom given enough time? I don't know. My feeling is that the star players, Kane and Debrincat, preferred Strome. Come on MVR, really? Choice between the Cat & Kubs as a shooter? Sure Kubs has a good shot and that is where any type of discussion ends. He does not posses the quick release and the accuracy that the Cat has and continues to show. That quick release is the difference between being a goal or the goalie making a save. The color guy (Moore) talked about the release in last night's game. I believe he used the word elite release and also called the Cat a superstar. Here is a thought why is Kubalik not trying to improve or add to his game? I am not even going to try and make any comments regarding your Strome and Borgstrom analogy as I have not really followed Borgstrom that close. Maybe some others might have some opinion. The only thing I will say regarding Strome he sees the ice very well, good passer, great chemistry with Debrincant and has taken the time to improve his game. I also believe he has shown mental toughness and resolve with the benching and trade speculation. Strome has overcome a lot here to prove he has the ability and the desire to play in the NHL,Borhstrom has neither the ability or the desire. He turns 25 this summer and still can't win a draw but DUMBASS saw him play in college so here we are payin' Brent 'buyout' Connolly 3.5M again next year for the phenom's services. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 8:27:55 GMT -6
I believe Borgstrom is gone this summer. Even if he maximizes his potential, there is no role for him here, especially if Strome stays. There is only room for one offence-first finesse type centre.
Bowman tended to collect too many of the same type of player - small guys or high skilled perimeter players. A team needs different types for different roles.
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Post by hsbob on Apr 26, 2022 8:30:40 GMT -6
D-Cat is a finisher and it doesn't matter who passes it to him. If it was all Kane why did Sikura still suck and not score when they played together. Meaning no disrespect to Kane but he has been fortunate in the later part of his carrier to play with first Panarin and then DeBrincat two gifted goal scorers. They took pressure off Kane as other teams had to worry about them as well. I believe all players produce better against weaker teams so that matters not. There is only one guy on the entire team who can pass and that is Kane. He might be the single best puck distributer I have ever seen. Whoever he plays with turns into a goal scorer. But to your point: Debrincat has a fabulous shot, no doubt about it. This team - and Kane's scoring numbers - would be much worse this year without his gun. C'mon man... D-Cat's been scorin' goals since he was F'n 12 for God's sake with and w/o Kane and it was JT settin' Kubs up a half dozen times a game when he was on his heater if I recall.....no? YOU'RE RIGHT.......Kane's a great passer. YOU'RE RIGHT........D-Cat will score more with a great passer. Set-up men need someone to finish and finisher's need someone to set em up. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 8:44:30 GMT -6
Toews is not really an elite set-up guy any longer. Perhaps he could again be one, if he was not also checking the opponent's best players every night.
But that's now what he does, and he can only do so much at his age. Until recently his linemates have not generated many offensive opportunities.
The only players regularly getting quality scoring chances this year are those playing with the superstar, Patrick Kane.
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Post by hsbob on Apr 26, 2022 8:47:30 GMT -6
I might exaggerate to make an occasional point but I do not put words in you mouth mvr! Will I be a 'strawman' if I vehemently disagree with "Sikura barely played"? I recall him skating with K&T for long stretches and Potter keeping him there regardless if he produced a sniff or not. He and NOlander never could achieve big ice time due to little to no special team play,both might have seen a bit of PP time but even Potter wouldn't trust either to kill. I recall both failures getting more than their share of ice time with better players but maybe I'm wrong......somebody got D-Cat's top six minutes back in '19-20'. When you suggest I make an argument that I don't, then you are playing the Strawman game. When you twist an argument to create a false narrative about my position on an issue, you are creating a Strawman. This is my only issue, here. I enjoy the debates, but it frustrates me when my views are deliberately (or accidentally) misrepresented for exaggeration or mockery. I think Debrincat is a fine player - in fact, one of best pure shooters I have ever seen. I just don't believe he carries the same value as others do, nor do I believe a rebuilding team starts with this type of player. Would you admit you make less than complementary comparisons between him and other players? I get your last sentence but this team couldn't win with McJesus(neither can the Oil...LOL),or Mathews(neither can the Leafs...LOL) or any other one player in the league,so trading DeBrincat isn't the worst idea ever but your continued reasons for why you so badly want him traded seem questionable at times.....just being honest. |
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Post by Nikos on Apr 26, 2022 8:50:19 GMT -6
Come on MVR, really? Choice between the Cat & Kubs as a shooter? Sure Kubs has a good shot and that is where any type of discussion ends. He does not posses the quick release and the accuracy that the Cat has and continues to show. That quick release is the difference between being a goal or the goalie making a save. The color guy (Moore) talked about the release in last night's game. I believe he used the word elite release and also called the Cat a superstar. Here is a thought why is Kubalik not trying to improve or add to his game? I am not even going to try and make any comments regarding your Strome and Borgstrom analogy as I have not really followed Borgstrom that close. Maybe some others might have some opinion. The only thing I will say regarding Strome he sees the ice very well, good passer, great chemistry with Debrincant and has taken the time to improve his game. I also believe he has shown mental toughness and resolve with the benching and trade speculation. Again, I am not suggesting the two players have the same talent. My point is that they do the same job. To be useful, Kubalik needs to play with a playmaker who can set him up for one-timers. He needs to play on the first unit powerplay. When he plays with checkers or in a shut down role, he doesn't produce. Debrincat needs also to play with a playmaker to maximize his effectiveness. He also needs to be the primary shooter on the powerplay. Kubalik is redundant with Debrincat here. Borgstrom is redundant with Strome here. Ok, my point is that Kubs does not do it as effective as Debrincat and that is talent and God giving ability and the difference in a one goal game. It seems what you are saying and not trying to put words on this thread for you is they are interchangeable due to the fact they do the same job. In my opinion I believe that is a leap if you believe that Kubs would produce at the same rate the Cat does on the powerplay. At some point talent is the difference. Kubs lost his job and role on the powerplay because of talent and to a more effective player. It happens all the time in any sport, you put your best players in the best positions to help your team win. You do not give them back their job and role because they cannot help you anywhere else. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 9:02:57 GMT -6
Again, I am not suggesting the two players have the same talent. My point is that they do the same job. To be useful, Kubalik needs to play with a playmaker who can set him up for one-timers. He needs to play on the first unit powerplay. When he plays with checkers or in a shut down role, he doesn't produce. Debrincat needs also to play with a playmaker to maximize his effectiveness. He also needs to be the primary shooter on the powerplay. Kubalik is redundant with Debrincat here. Borgstrom is redundant with Strome here. Ok, my point is that Kubs does not do it as effective as Debrincat and that is talent and God giving ability and the difference in a one goal game. It seems what you are saying and not trying to put words on this thread for you is they are interchangeable due to the fact they do the same job. In my opinion I believe that is a leap if you believe that Kubs would produce at the same rate the Cat does on the powerplay. At some point talent is the difference. Kubs lost his job and role on the powerplay because of talent and to a more effective player. It happens all the time in any sport, you put your best players in the best positions to help your team win. You do not give them back their job and role because they cannot help you anywhere else. I agree with most of what you wrote here. Nevertheless, I do not think the two players are "interchangeable." Clearly, one is better than the other (See Big T's post above) The point I was making is that Kubalik has no present role here because Debrincat right now is doing that job. This is a rebuilding team - among the worst in the league this year and for the next several. What difference does it make, really, if it is Debrincat or Kubalik shooting rockets at the net? The overall result will be the same. Debrincat scores more goals, but the team still loses way more than it wins. |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 26, 2022 9:06:29 GMT -6
Dylan Sikura played nine games in 2019-20. He didn't steal Debrincat's icetime. Kubalik did. He scored 30 goals in 68 games (most in the second half of the year). It was the year before that saw Sukura get 33 games with K&T and somehow still not pot one,it was NOlander getting D-Cat's minutes back in '19-20'. Kubalik skated with JT and it was JT puttin' em on a tee for his winger while a FAILD HC had his elite 41 goal sniper on the 3rd line for the season because he had a cold start? Who does that? What the two players have done since speaks for itself or at least it should. Kubalik is an interesting player though and another mis-used by two consecutive AHL quality HC's IMO. Kubs struggled w/o his set-up man last year but I see NO reason he shouldn't of been back on JT's wing and LEFT there to start this year........the two had chemistry in the past. Strome and D-Cat persevered against poor coaching decisions and reclaimed what was rightfully theirs......Kubs just got demoralized. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 9:06:52 GMT -6
When you suggest I make an argument that I don't, then you are playing the Strawman game. When you twist an argument to create a false narrative about my position on an issue, you are creating a Strawman. This is my only issue, here. I enjoy the debates, but it frustrates me when my views are deliberately (or accidentally) misrepresented for exaggeration or mockery. I think Debrincat is a fine player - in fact, one of best pure shooters I have ever seen. I just don't believe he carries the same value as others do, nor do I believe a rebuilding team starts with this type of player. Would you admit you make less than complementary comparisons between him and other players? I get your last sentence but this team couldn't win with McJesus(neither can the Oil...LOL),or Mathews(neither can the Leafs...LOL) or any other one player in the league,so trading DeBrincat isn't the worst idea ever but your continued reasons for why you so badly want him traded seem questionable at times.....just being honest. I will admit that for sure. I do not think a small scoring winger is anywhere near as valuable as a top six centre or an elite defender. I also value power wingers, goalies and puck distributors (such as Patrick Kane) much more highly. Wingers cover less geography. Their defence zone assignments are much easier to handle. The job is easier. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 9:16:34 GMT -6
The contract is up next year. The decision needs to be made this year. Do you keep the player and lock him up long term with a big money no-movement clause?
Or do you cash the chips while you can and start over?
Really, I cannot think of a single issue Davidson must address that is more important to this team's long-term future than this one.
This decision will set the franchise in one direction or another for the next decade-plus. You know which direction makes the most sense to me.
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Post by hsbob on Apr 26, 2022 9:27:30 GMT -6
Would you admit you make less than complementary comparisons between him and other players? I get your last sentence but this team couldn't win with McJesus(neither can the Oil...LOL),or Mathews(neither can the Leafs...LOL) or any other one player in the league,so trading DeBrincat isn't the worst idea ever but your continued reasons for why you so badly want him traded seem questionable at times.....just being honest. I will admit that for sure. I do not think a small scoring winger is anywhere near as valuable as a top six centre or an elite defender. I also value power wingers, goalies and puck distributors (such as Patrick Kane) much more highly. Wingers cover less geography. Their defence zone assignments are much easier to handle. The job is easier. Everyone's entitled to their opinions and preferences and they're always the hardest things to debate. I value players who perform and produce and other than D-Cat,I see no other youngsters who fit that description. Dach was a POOR pick the more I watch Seider and Zegras. I've read skepticism that the Kings would part with Byfield or the BJ's would part with one of their prospects for D-Cat here and you've only mentioned 'picks' back when discussing a trade........what would you require back in trade for the kid? |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 26, 2022 9:35:20 GMT -6
The contract is up next year. The decision needs to be made this year. Do you keep the player and lock him up long term with a big money no-movement clause? Or do you cash the chips while you can and start over? Really, I cannot think of a single issue Davidson must address that is more important to this team's long-term future than this one. This decision will set the franchise in one direction or another for the next decade-plus. You know which direction makes the most sense to me. I agree......if a franchise trades a 24yro elite player and the return is poor,it would certainly set that franchise on bad direction for the next decade or should I say an even worse direction. If the return is a good one,it'll have to also be a productive one,would I rather have a true #1center or a true top pair D-man in his early 20's than a goal scoring winger? I guess I would but it's been SOO long since we've had one.....I don't know when we see the next one. |
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Post by Nikos on Apr 26, 2022 9:42:24 GMT -6
I will admit that for sure. I do not think a small scoring winger is anywhere near as valuable as a top six centre or an elite defender. I also value power wingers, goalies and puck distributors (such as Patrick Kane) much more highly. Wingers cover less geography. Their defence zone assignments are much easier to handle. The job is easier. Everyone's entitled to their opinions and preferences and they're always the hardest things to debate. I value players who perform and produce and other than D-Cat,I see no other youngsters who fit that description. Dach was a POOR pick the more I watch Seider and Zegras. I've read skepticism that the Kings would part with Byfield or the BJ's would part with one of their prospects for D-Cat here and you've only mentioned 'picks' back when discussing a trade........what would you require back in trade for the kid? Bob, I am with you I will be surprised if Kings include Byfield and the same with the Jackets and Johnson. So to your point what do you get back for Debrincat. I do not see a "hockey trade" meaning a quality all-star back for him, it is going to be picks and prospects and hope you get enough good ones to maximize the rebuild start. |
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Post by Nikos on Apr 26, 2022 9:52:00 GMT -6
The contract is up next year. The decision needs to be made this year. Do you keep the player and lock him up long term with a big money no-movement clause? Or do you cash the chips while you can and start over? Really, I cannot think of a single issue Davidson must address that is more important to this team's long-term future than this one. This decision will set the franchise in one direction or another for the next decade-plus. You know which direction makes the most sense to me. I agree......if a franchise trades a 24yro elite player and the return is poor,it would certainly set that franchise on bad direction for the next decade or should I say an even worse direction. If the return is a good one,it'll have to also be a productive one,would I rather have a true #1center or a true top pair D-man in his early 20's than a goal scoring winger? I guess I would but it's been SOO long since we've had one.....I don't know when we see the next one. Yeah hate to see that type of talent and person be moved as currently there is really nobody else on the current team, AHL or prospect poll that can fill up the net on a consistent basis. Unfortunately this is what happens when prior management had no long term plan. |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 26, 2022 10:17:15 GMT -6
Everyone's entitled to their opinions and preferences and they're always the hardest things to debate. I value players who perform and produce and other than D-Cat,I see no other youngsters who fit that description. Dach was a POOR pick the more I watch Seider and Zegras. I've read skepticism that the Kings would part with Byfield or the BJ's would part with one of their prospects for D-Cat here and you've only mentioned 'picks' back when discussing a trade........what would you require back in trade for the kid? Bob, I am with you I will be surprised if Kings include Byfield and the same with the Jackets and Johnson. So to your point what do you get back for Debrincat. I do not see a "hockey trade" meaning a quality all-star back for him, it is going to be picks and prospects and hope you get enough good ones to maximize the rebuild start. We're all just speculating' Nik,none of us know what a Kings team that's closer than many thought will do or the BJ's for that matter. I think D-Cat's game is highly appreciated around the league but we should only get picks and prospects regardless. Byfield and Johnson are pure unproven prospects at this point and an all-star quality player isn't a need here for several years from what I see. |
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Post by Nikos on Apr 26, 2022 12:04:11 GMT -6
Bob, I am with you I will be surprised if Kings include Byfield and the same with the Jackets and Johnson. So to your point what do you get back for Debrincat. I do not see a "hockey trade" meaning a quality all-star back for him, it is going to be picks and prospects and hope you get enough good ones to maximize the rebuild start. We're all just speculating' Nik,none of us know what a Kings team that's closer than many thought will do or the BJ's for that matter. I think D-Cat's game is highly appreciated around the league but we should only get picks and prospects regardless. Byfield and Johnson are pure unproven prospects at this point and an all-star quality player isn't a need here for several years from what I see. Sure and to your point if Kings believe they are getting closer to contending they might be interested. Unproven or not just do not see them giving up Byfield unless they were one player away. I do not know the Johnson kid that much to say is he untouchable or some of their other top prospects. We probably are looking at picks and possibly like the two 2 players we got from the Bolts, limited NHL experience and stuck behind others on the depth chart. I just do not see a team giving up their #1 prospect unless as mentioned the are one player away. They may include prospects in addition to picks but possibly a lower tier. The only thing with picks the teams trading for Debrincat likely are very good and will land in 20-32 range, lottery protected for several years. It still becomes a crapshoot, but right now they have to continue to build up their assets. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 12:12:09 GMT -6
The return package would have to be good. I am thinking multiple first round picks and at least one grade A centre or defence prospect (such as Edvinsson, Byfield etc). I believe there is an offer out there which will work. Adding Debrincat will turn some pretender into a contender.
But more important than the trade return to my mind is the flexibility of not having the long term contract with the NMC. That $9-10 M needs to be spent elsewhere for a rebuilding club.
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Post by Nikos on Apr 26, 2022 13:59:23 GMT -6
The return package would have to be good. I am thinking multiple first round picks and at least one grade A centre or defence prospect (such as Edvinsson, Byfield etc). I believe there is an offer out there which will work. Adding Debrincat will turn some pretender into a contender. But more important than the trade return to my mind is the flexibility of not having the long term contract with the NMC. That $9-10 M needs to be spent elsewhere for a rebuilding club. I still do not think Byfield is included, projected #1 center with that size, speed and power eventually replacing Kopitar, possibly the Swede Edvinsson since Sieder is there already. Man if Detroit gets another #1 or #2 Dmen is almost back to back drafts look out. |
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debrincat
Apr 26, 2022 16:26:28 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by BigT on Apr 26, 2022 16:26:28 GMT -6
The return package would have to be good. I am thinking multiple first round picks and at least one grade A centre or defence prospect (such as Edvinsson, Byfield etc). I believe there is an offer out there which will work. Adding Debrincat will turn some pretender into a contender. But more important than the trade return to my mind is the flexibility of not having the long term contract with the NMC. That $9-10 M needs to be spent elsewhere for a rebuilding club. If Dcat would take 2 of the 3. Either term and money. Or NMC and money, or NMC and term. Cannot give all three. That is how I would negotiate with him. In a rebuild era, you have every right to be tough on negotiations. Next. If the right trade exists I do it. I look for teams with good cap and prospects. Carolina is one. Detroit is another. LA, Anaheim, Edmonton, Vancouver, Islanders, SJ, Dallas, and maybe even the Senators. I’ve heard rumours of the Habs. So there should be a lot of suitors. We’ll see soon enough. My fear is still that the org doesn’t fully rebuild. They stumble through it and just get a few picks and then look to trades and UFA to complete the rest. If they take the short way. It’s probably not gonna work, just like Scambo’s plan. And the 10-13 year rebuild will begin years later. Let’s hope they go the asset management route. Even Uncle Dale said they will need 30 prospects to sift from. The Hawks might have an honest handful of prospects. They need 22-25 more. So I don’t see this turning around real quick!!! |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 17:03:52 GMT -6
The return package would have to be good. I am thinking multiple first round picks and at least one grade A centre or defence prospect (such as Edvinsson, Byfield etc). I believe there is an offer out there which will work. Adding Debrincat will turn some pretender into a contender. But more important than the trade return to my mind is the flexibility of not having the long term contract with the NMC. That $9-10 M needs to be spent elsewhere for a rebuilding club. If Dcat would take 2 of the 3. Either term and money. Or NMC and money, or NMC and term. Cannot give all three. That is how I would negotiate with him. In a rebuild era, you have every right to be tough on negotiations. Next. If the right trade exists I do it. I look for teams with good cap and prospects. Carolina is one. Detroit is another. LA, Anaheim, Edmonton, Vancouver, Islanders, SJ, Dallas, and maybe even the Senators. I’ve heard rumours of the Habs. So there should be a lot of suitors. We’ll see soon enough. My fear is still that the org doesn’t fully rebuild. They stumble through it and just get a few picks and then look to trades and UFA to complete the rest. If they take the short way. It’s probably not gonna work, just like Scambo’s plan. And the 10-13 year rebuild will begin years later. Let’s hope they go the asset management route. Even Uncle Dale said they will need 30 prospects to sift from. The Hawks might have an honest handful of prospects. They need 22-25 more. So I don’t see this turning around real quick!!! The easy way out for Davidson is to resign Debrincat this summer. This obviously is what most fans want and expect to happen. My guess, it will be for eight years, $10 M/year with a NMC. There will be a huge press conference. The local press will fawn over the general manager for this public relations coup. Ticket sales stabilize. The rebuild never really happens. A few older big name free agents are signed two years from now (after the Toews deal expires), and these additions are enough to get the team over the hump and back into the playoffs. We see plenty of first round exits for the next decade plus. The team makes the semi-finals one time. Bob Pulford smiles. Team captain Debrincat is about 34 when his contract expires nine years from now. He will be six or more years removed from his career year. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 17:59:08 GMT -6
How many teams who sign UFAs to long term deals get their money's worth? How many more feel buyer's remorse?
From the Hawks, the results have been not good.
On the one hand, Kane certainly produced enough to justify his cap hit. But he might be the only one.
Toews is being paid for past contributions. His present contract is basically unmoveable until next year's deadline.
Keith and Hossa had cap circumventing deals. Neither finished their contracts here. Campbell, Sharp and Bickell were traded away as cap dumps - each costing the team prospects and players or dead cap space. Seabrook, Shaw and Hossa finished their contracts on LTIR (and two were traded in cap dump deals).
We all love those players. But the post-UFA contracts undoubtedly hurt the team and resulted in no cups post-2015.
Think ahead nine years from now. How likely is it that the Hawks feel good about locking up Adam Debrincat to a big money/long term deal with a NMC during his UFA-contract years?
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Apr 26, 2022 18:35:10 GMT -6
How many teams who sign UFAs to long term deals get their money's worth? How many more feel buyer's remorse? From the Hawks, the results have been not good. On the one hand, Kane certainly produced enough to justify his cap hit. But he might be the only one. Toews is being paid for past contributions. His present contract is basically unmoveable until next year's deadline. Keith and Hossa had cap circumventing deals. Neither finished their contracts here. Campbell, Sharp and Bickell were traded away as cap dumps - each costing the team prospects and players or dead cap space. Seabrook, Shaw and Hossa finished their contracts on LTIR (and two were traded in cap dump deals). We all love those players. But the post-UFA contracts undoubtedly hurt the team and resulted in no cups post-2015. Think ahead nine years from now. How likely is it that the Hawks feel good about locking up Adam Debrincat to a big money/long term deal with a NMC during his UFA-contract years? Adam Debrincat? Hawks draft a player scoring the second most since JR before he's 25 and you keep disrespecting him and now call him Adam 🤦♂️ And I don't know why you brought up Kubalik who was 24 when he first played in the NHL and had his 30 goal season. He hasn't scored 20 since, don't blame it on the coach because the eye test shows his shot is off and he's fumbling the puck a lot. If last season wasn't shortened Debrincat would've had three 40g seasons and he's 24 now. Look at their shooting percentage, there's no comparison. |
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Post by hawkfaninpdx on Apr 26, 2022 18:37:05 GMT -6
How many teams who sign UFAs to long term deals get their money's worth? How many more feel buyer's remorse? From the Hawks, the results have been not good. On the one hand, Kane certainly produced enough to justify his cap hit. But he might be the only one. Toews is being paid for past contributions. His present contract is basically unmoveable until next year's deadline. Keith and Hossa had cap circumventing deals. Neither finished their contracts here. Campbell, Sharp and Bickell were traded away as cap dumps - each costing the team prospects and players or dead cap space. Seabrook, Shaw and Hossa finished their contracts on LTIR (and two were traded in cap dump deals). We all love those players. But the post-UFA contracts undoubtedly hurt the team and resulted in no cups post-2015. Think ahead nine years from now. How likely is it that the Hawks feel good about locking up Adam Debrincat to a big money/long term deal with a NMC during his UFA-contract years? Maybe that's a better perspective from which to consider large contracts: players get paid for their loyalty and past contributions and taking bridge deals. This makes the Hawks -- or used to make -- the Hawks an attractive destination. |
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debrincat
Apr 26, 2022 18:41:55 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by OldTimeHawky on Apr 26, 2022 18:41:55 GMT -6
Dylan Sikura played nine games in 2019-20. He didn't steal Debrincat's icetime. Kubalik did. He scored 30 goals in 68 games (most in the second half of the year). It was the year before that saw Sukura get 33 games with K&T and somehow still not pot one,it was NOlander getting D-Cat's minutes back in '19-20'. Kubalik skated with JT and it was JT puttin' em on a tee for his winger while a FAILD HC had his elite 41 goal sniper on the 3rd line for the season because he had a cold start? Who does that? What the two players have done since speaks for itself or at least it should. Kubalik is an interesting player though and another mis-used by two consecutive AHL quality HC's IMO. Kubs struggled w/o his set-up man last year but I see NO reason he shouldn't of been back on JT's wing and LEFT there to start this year........the two had chemistry in the past. Strome and D-Cat persevered against poor coaching decisions and reclaimed what was rightfully theirs......Kubs just got demoralized. I think the reason he was put on the 3rd line was because he was heavily targeted after scoring 41 and took some nasty hits, one was head first into the boards and it looked like his shoulder was dislocated and he left the game. I was shocked when he played the next game but noticed his shooting was off and if his shoulder was injured that would explain moving him to the 3rd line. It would've spared him from top defenders, that's the only thing I can think of. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 19:31:45 GMT -6
How many teams who sign UFAs to long term deals get their money's worth? How many more feel buyer's remorse? From the Hawks, the results have been not good. On the one hand, Kane certainly produced enough to justify his cap hit. But he might be the only one. Toews is being paid for past contributions. His present contract is basically unmoveable until next year's deadline. Keith and Hossa had cap circumventing deals. Neither finished their contracts here. Campbell, Sharp and Bickell were traded away as cap dumps - each costing the team prospects and players or dead cap space. Seabrook, Shaw and Hossa finished their contracts on LTIR (and two were traded in cap dump deals). We all love those players. But the post-UFA contracts undoubtedly hurt the team and resulted in no cups post-2015. Think ahead nine years from now. How likely is it that the Hawks feel good about locking up Adam Debrincat to a big money/long term deal with a NMC during his UFA-contract years? Adam Debrincat? Hawks draft a player scoring the second most since JR before he's 25 and you keep disrespecting him and now call him Adam 🤦♂️ And I don't know why you brought up Kubalik who was 24 when he first played in the NHL and had his 30 goal season. He hasn't scored 20 since, don't blame it on the coach because the eye test shows his shot is off and he's fumbling the puck a lot. If last season wasn't shortened Debrincat would've had three 40g seasons and he's 24 now. Look at their shooting percentage, there's no comparison. When you sign a player long term, the idea is to project what he will bring to the team during the future period you sign him for. It cannot be about rewarding him for past contributions. He is being paid fairly right now for what he is doing. Let's remember this conversation nine years from now. Do you think ALEX will be producing enough in seven, eight or nine years (when the Hawks again become competitive) to justify a $10 M/year contract? This is the issue. It always has been. The player is going to cash in, either here or elsewhere. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 26, 2022 19:44:00 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong - I had no problem with Bowman rewarding the core with their big contracts. Even though I suspected the players wouldn't last, to my mind, they'd earned the right to have that security.
That situation was different. Those players had won cups. Now the Hawks are in the very early stages of a rebuild.
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Post by vadarx on Apr 26, 2022 20:39:05 GMT -6
Adam Debrincat? Hawks draft a player scoring the second most since JR before he's 25 and you keep disrespecting him and now call him Adam 🤦♂️ And I don't know why you brought up Kubalik who was 24 when he first played in the NHL and had his 30 goal season. He hasn't scored 20 since, don't blame it on the coach because the eye test shows his shot is off and he's fumbling the puck a lot. If last season wasn't shortened Debrincat would've had three 40g seasons and he's 24 now. Look at their shooting percentage, there's no comparison. When you sign a player long term, the idea is to project what he will bring to the team during the future period you sign him for. It cannot be about rewarding him for past contributions. He is being paid fairly right now for what he is doing. Let's remember this conversation nine years from now. Do you think ALEX will be producing enough in seven, eight or nine years (when the Hawks again become competitive) to justify a $10 M/year contract? This is the issue. It always has been. The player is going to cash in, either here or elsewhere. but Jones was OK to trade for even though he will be 3-4 years older than Debrincat by the time they are competitive? the team is going to suck for a while. would I trade him for the right package? yes, I would. will I be even slightly surprised if the extension/presser you listed above happens? no, I will not. gotta have asses in the seats, which is why neither he nor 88 will be moved, despite the fact that those two would be the two players whose trades could accelerate the rebuild by a significant margin over any other option the front office has. |
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