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Post by mvr on Apr 27, 2022 5:02:34 GMT -6
When you make a mistake, it is never wise to double down. Two wrongs don't make a right.
As you know, I like Jones a great deal, but that trade/signing right now looks bad. If we could turn back the clock and fire Bowman before he pulled the trigger, you know I would support that.
Still, I'm less concerned about Jones than the potential Debrincat contract because core defencemen tend to have much longer careers than scoring wingers. If I am going to lock up a player long term, it is a first-pairing defenceman. Good ones who play 25-30 minutes a game are so difficult to find. They can remain effective well into their thirties.
Debrincat is going to be re-signed this summer. I have little doubt. My projected numbers for his contract might be low. His agent holds all the cards here, and the marketing team needs a star to build its campaign around. Hopefully the cap explodes over the next decade.
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Post by galaxytrash on Apr 27, 2022 5:21:46 GMT -6
it might be our worst season in over a decade but at least this off season should be one of our most interesting...maybe in over a decade? i'd say so.
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debrincat
Apr 27, 2022 5:36:39 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by vadarx on Apr 27, 2022 5:36:39 GMT -6
it might be our worst season in over a decade but at least this off season should be one of our most interesting...maybe in over a decade? i'd say so. I expect this season to be exciting for housekeeping and maybe we get lucky in thr second round reasons. next summer will be more about future reasons. imo. |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 27, 2022 8:17:12 GMT -6
After listening to Kane and Cat...... www.nbcsports.com/chicago/blackhawks/podcast-patrick-kanes-future-blackhawks-tied-alex-debrincatI think the suspicions that both stay are well founded(Rocky will NOT put up with a half empty UC!).....like it or not. I am not saying this is the best path for a FULL/HONEST rebuild but let me ask a question.......do we see a FULL/HONEST rebuild? I too see the dangers in MAX contracts but if a 24yro elite player isn't worth one.....who is? Seth Jones? At what age if any should a player get a max deal? I know the Cat is a small framed player but point to his size as ever being a draw-back at any level.......he's YET to miss a game to injury through five seasons. I don't think anyone can point to an unwillingness to engage regardless of the opponent unlike many of his bigger teammates. FROSTS my ass to see bigger kids go through the motions like NOlander and Borgstrom(how can he have no physical presence at his size) while an elite goal scorer the size of an 8th grader goes toe to toe with men without ever backing down. ANY player can be traded and not all fans appreciate all players but if the return is squandered,the team loses it's only big draft win in a decade for nothing. A FULL/NONEST rebuild might very well require D-Cat being moved,how else can this team regain the squandered picks and acquire even more? The team also NEEDS a few top 3-5 picks to say the least and this talk of Kane seeing a quicker rebuild and a better year next year is confounding and I love the guy! Be honest.....who sees a FULL/HONEST rebuild happening over the next 3-5 years? |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 27, 2022 8:19:55 GMT -6
It was the year before that saw Sukura get 33 games with K&T and somehow still not pot one,it was NOlander getting D-Cat's minutes back in '19-20'. Kubalik skated with JT and it was JT puttin' em on a tee for his winger while a FAILD HC had his elite 41 goal sniper on the 3rd line for the season because he had a cold start? Who does that? What the two players have done since speaks for itself or at least it should. Kubalik is an interesting player though and another mis-used by two consecutive AHL quality HC's IMO. Kubs struggled w/o his set-up man last year but I see NO reason he shouldn't of been back on JT's wing and LEFT there to start this year........the two had chemistry in the past. Strome and D-Cat persevered against poor coaching decisions and reclaimed what was rightfully theirs......Kubs just got demoralized. I think the reason he was put on the 3rd line was because he was heavily targeted after scoring 41 and took some nasty hits, one was head first into the boards and it looked like his shoulder was dislocated and he left the game. I was shocked when he played the next game but noticed his shooting was off and if his shoulder was injured that would explain moving him to the 3rd line. It would've spared him from top defenders, that's the only thing I can think of. Potter said it was for balanced scoring I thought but wouldn't you put your goal score back in the top six when his shoulder got better? |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 27, 2022 8:36:29 GMT -6
When you make a mistake, it is never wise to double down. Two wrongs don't make a right. As you know, I like Jones a great deal, but that trade/signing right now looks bad. If we could turn back the clock and fire Bowman before he pulled the trigger, you know I would support that. Still, I'm less concerned about Jones than the potential Debrincat contract because core defencemen tend to have much longer careers than scoring wingers. If I am going to lock up a player long term, it is a first-pairing defenceman. Good ones who play 25-30 minutes a game are so difficult to find. They can remain effective well into their thirties. Debrincat is going to be re-signed this summer. I have little doubt. My projected numbers for his contract might be low. His agent holds all the cards here, and the marketing team needs a star to build its campaign around. Hopefully the cap explodes over the next decade. I like Jones as a player myself and I've also mentioned acquiring a #1 D-man is always expensive..........especially when the team couldn't draft one with ALL those picks. Coulda had one in Sieder though! Jones also went to shit as the year went along,I remember saying "he could have 50 points by New Years"........he has 51 this morning. I dislike the contract as much as I like the player,he'll be 31 with 1,000 games on the tires with four years of 9.5M,FIVE MILLION in bonuses until the end making a buy-out useless with FNMC left! Let's hope the cap explodes indeed! Those big minutes and blocked shots caught up with guys like Seabs and Hammer in their early 30's......not to mention the JAW DROPPING assets given up for a player who could of been had as an UFA this summer. |
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Post by Nikos on Apr 27, 2022 9:25:32 GMT -6
After listening to Kane and Cat...... www.nbcsports.com/chicago/blackhawks/podcast-patrick-kanes-future-blackhawks-tied-alex-debrincatI think the suspicions that both stay are well founded(Rocky will NOT put up with a half empty UC!).....like it or not. I am not saying this is the best path for a FULL/HONEST rebuild but let me ask a question.......do see see a FULL/HONEST rebuild? I too see the dangers in MAX contracts but if a 24yro elite player isn't worth one.....who is? Seth Jones? At what age if any should a player get a max deal? I know the Cat is a small framed player but point to his size as ever being a draw-back at any level.......he's YET to miss a game to injury through five seasons. I don't think anyone can point to an unwillingness to engage regardless of the opponent unlike many of his bigger teammates. FROSTS my ass to see bigger kids go through the motions like NOlander and Borgstrom(how can he have no physical presence at his size) while an elite goal scorer the size of an 8th grader goes toe to toe with men without ever backing down. ANY player can be traded and not all fans appreciate all players but if the return is squandered,the team loses it's only big draft win in a decade for nothing. A FULL/NONEST rebuild might very well require D-Cat being moved,how else can this team regain the squandered picks and acquire even more? The team also NEEDS a few top 3-5 picks to say the least and this talk of Kane seeing a quicker rebuild and a better year next year is confounding and I love the guy! Be honest.....who sees a FULL/HONEST rebuild happening over the next 3-5 years? We all saw how the previous guy tried and it did not work and in fact made matters worse. They have to get assets like Big T keeps saying, signing UFAs is not the way, there dozens and dozens of examples around the league where the impact is minimal. How is JVR working with Flyers? How about Lou Erickson with Vancouver? The Flyers are in a rebuild and Vancouver already started a few years back. KD used the word rebuild several times, we will see in a few months if this will be full & honest one. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Apr 27, 2022 9:29:01 GMT -6
I think the reason he was put on the 3rd line was because he was heavily targeted after scoring 41 and took some nasty hits, one was head first into the boards and it looked like his shoulder was dislocated and he left the game. I was shocked when he played the next game but noticed his shooting was off and if his shoulder was injured that would explain moving him to the 3rd line. It would've spared him from top defenders, that's the only thing I can think of. Potter said it was for balanced scoring I thought but wouldn't you put your goal score back in the top six when his shoulder got better? True but I don't think it got better till the offseason. It was his right shoulder so his bottom hand, if it was his top hand it'd be a lot harder to play with. I think it was against the Oilers cause I told my ex her team is dirty lol As you know Debrincat is tough cause some of the hits he took would've put guys out, even in juniors he took some huge hits, usually while he was shooting and scoring but he'd bounce back up. Hopefully KD starts the negotiation at 5-6yrs around 7-8per, unlike the last guy who'd start high. |
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Post by BigT on Apr 27, 2022 9:54:16 GMT -6
After listening to Kane and Cat...... www.nbcsports.com/chicago/blackhawks/podcast-patrick-kanes-future-blackhawks-tied-alex-debrincatI think the suspicions that both stay are well founded(Rocky will NOT put up with a half empty UC!).....like it or not. I am not saying this is the best path for a FULL/HONEST rebuild but let me ask a question.......do see see a FULL/HONEST rebuild? I too see the dangers in MAX contracts but if a 24yro elite player isn't worth one.....who is? Seth Jones? At what age if any should a player get a max deal? I know the Cat is a small framed player but point to his size as ever being a draw-back at any level.......he's YET to miss a game to injury through five seasons. I don't think anyone can point to an unwillingness to engage regardless of the opponent unlike many of his bigger teammates. FROSTS my ass to see bigger kids go through the motions like NOlander and Borgstrom(how can he have no physical presence at his size) while an elite goal scorer the size of an 8th grader goes toe to toe with men without ever backing down. ANY player can be traded and not all fans appreciate all players but if the return is squandered,the team loses it's only big draft win in a decade for nothing. A FULL/NONEST rebuild might very well require D-Cat being moved,how else can this team regain the squandered picks and acquire even more? The team also NEEDS a few top 3-5 picks to say the least and this talk of Kane seeing a quicker rebuild and a better year next year is confounding and I love the guy! Be honest.....who sees a FULL/HONEST rebuild happening over the next 3-5 years? We all saw how the previous guy tried and it did not work and in fact made matters worse. They have to get assets like Big T keeps saying, signing UFAs is not the way, there dozens and dozens of examples around the league where the impact is minimal. How is JVR working with Flyers? How about Lou Erickson with Vancouver? The Flyers are in a rebuild and Vancouver already started a few years back. KD used the word rebuild several times, we will see in a few months if this will be full & honest one. I’ve shared my love for Kane. But if he thinks this thing can turn around quick, he will never be management material. First off. The Kings started their rebuild about 5 years ago around 2016-17. The problem is they traded all their assets except 2-3 of them. But they traded a lot of guys along the way. Now they’ve got about 7-8 good kids. And a bunch of vets. The Rags kept more of their guys and added free agents and added a few kids. But the Rags will be in full rebuild mode in the next few years and cap hell. I’d rather just get it over with and actually build from within this time. Don’t go out and sign too many UFAs. When a player gets too expensive, it’s best to trade them earlier on and get something for them before your back is against the wall and have to sweeten the pot. Perfect example. If Sharp was traded earlier, and Seabrook not given that massive extension. We could have gotten free agents and or assets to rebuild. I know it’s tough to say goodbye to beloved players. I fully get it. It sucks. But you identify your core 4 and build around them. Let go of all spare parts when they want the big bucks, get good young assets, rinse and repeat. The Hawks need to do the same thing. Put their faith in asset management. Not just for a rebuild, but for the long haul!!! |
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Post by LordKOTL on Apr 27, 2022 9:56:33 GMT -6
Adam Debrincat? Hawks draft a player scoring the second most since JR before he's 25 and you keep disrespecting him and now call him Adam 🤦♂️ And I don't know why you brought up Kubalik who was 24 when he first played in the NHL and had his 30 goal season. He hasn't scored 20 since, don't blame it on the coach because the eye test shows his shot is off and he's fumbling the puck a lot. If last season wasn't shortened Debrincat would've had three 40g seasons and he's 24 now. Look at their shooting percentage, there's no comparison. When you sign a player long term, the idea is to project what he will bring to the team during the future period you sign him for. It cannot be about rewarding him for past contributions. He is being paid fairly right now for what he is doing. Let's remember this conversation nine years from now. Do you think ALEX will be producing enough in seven, eight or nine years (when the Hawks again become competitive) to justify a $10 M/year contract? This is the issue. It always has been. The player is going to cash in, either here or elsewhere. Unfortunately the market bears those contracts; Some idiot GM (Stan Bowman, for example), will pay more for players with potential who haven't proven anything. Also, some idiot GM (also Stan Bowman) will pay players for past contributions even if there's not much chance they will ever live up to their cap impact. Stan wasn't the only idiot GM, so those tend to drive the market for everyone. Good teams try to minimize the impact of projection-based contracts or past performance based contracts. Hell, look at McJesus; that much money and no cups for Edmonton. Whether or not Debrincat produces in his 30's is debatable and we won't know until he's there. Hell, I'm sure the same arguments were made about Kane and his longevity being a small FWD. I also remember there was a lot of blithering in 2008 and 2009 about how good a small guy like he would be in the playoffs. Thankfully, 88 shut a lot of naysayers pieholes  . Maybe with a roster worth a squirt of piss and a coach worth a squirt of piss he'd be effective there. When it comes to Debrincat there are 2 things that have to be balanced out: The 'hawks need what they need for the rebuild and El Gato in my estimation is the right player at the wrong time--like Hagel. Debrincat being a Blue-chip asset can definitely bring in the right assets for the rebuild. The flipside is that being a blue-chip asset he cannot be squandered willy-nilly because beyond him, who do the 'hawks have to bring in real pieces and not the slugs they have now? Reichel? The saving grace for Debrincat is that he's still an RFA and can be offersheeted, so I do agree that it would be a bit foolish to sign him this offseason to a Jones-like deal (and that deal is looking bad). I also agree with BigT : Debrincat has to choose 2: Term, Money, Clauses. Again he's an RFA; if some other team offers him 10.5 for 7M with an ironclad NMC, we take the 4 1st rounders and run. hsbob is also right in my opinion that Rocky will try as hard as he can to no go back to the $bill days of an empty stadium with no one to cheer for, and right now Debrincat is the only young star we got. Reichel is young but hasn't done much. Toews and Kane aren't young. Debrincat is an easy sell in that respect. In my estimation thought I think Debrincat may very well be playing to a 10M standard in 10 years. Kane did at that age. Debrincat is a pure goal scorer and can beat beat netminders which is a task unto itself (if it was easy a lot of Stan's reclaimation projects wouldn't have been dumped by the wayside--see also Sikura and Nylander). I don't see his finishing ability diminishing that quickly with age. The real question is whether or not the 'hawks can get back to contention in those 10 intervening years--both with Debrincat and losing whatever potential rebuild assets he could bring in, or without him and keeping said potential assets. One player doesn't make a contender. I'm okay with Debrincat staying. I'm okay with him leaving as long as the return is solid--at least as solid as Hagel's if not more. But I also don't think he gets moved this summer unless a fantastic deal happens. You don't luck into 41 goals--especially along multiple seasons and that RFA is a nice out. The 'hawks can definitly afford to set terms and possibly wait for an offersheet if negotiations stall. When you sign a player long term, the idea is to project what he will bring to the team during the future period you sign him for. It cannot be about rewarding him for past contributions. He is being paid fairly right now for what he is doing. Let's remember this conversation nine years from now. Do you think ALEX will be producing enough in seven, eight or nine years (when the Hawks again become competitive) to justify a $10 M/year contract? This is the issue. It always has been. The player is going to cash in, either here or elsewhere. but Jones was OK to trade for even though he will be 3-4 years older than Debrincat by the time they are competitive? the team is going to suck for a while. would I trade him for the right package? yes, I would. will I be even slightly surprised if the extension/presser you listed above happens? no, I will not. gotta have asses in the seats, which is why neither he nor 88 will be moved, despite the fact that those two would be the two players whose trades could accelerate the rebuild by a significant margin over any other option the front office has. As mentioned above asses is the seats is a consideration. However, I think anyone can be moved for the right price. I wouldn't be surprised if he stays, nor if he goes. Davidson et. al just has to make the right move going forward. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Apr 27, 2022 10:01:00 GMT -6
We all saw how the previous guy tried and it did not work and in fact made matters worse. They have to get assets like Big T keeps saying, signing UFAs is not the way, there dozens and dozens of examples around the league where the impact is minimal. How is JVR working with Flyers? How about Lou Erickson with Vancouver? The Flyers are in a rebuild and Vancouver already started a few years back. KD used the word rebuild several times, we will see in a few months if this will be full & honest one. I’ve shared my love for Kane. But if he thinks this thing can turn around quick, he will never be management material. First off. The Kings started their rebuild about 5 years ago around 2016-17. The problem is they traded all their assets except 2-3 of them. But they traded a lot of guys along the way. Now they’ve got about 7-8 good kids. And a bunch of vets. The Rags kept more of their guys and added free agents and added a few kids. But the Rags will be in full rebuild mode in the next few years and cap hell. I’d rather just get it over with and actually build from within this time. Don’t go out and sign too many UFAs. When a player gets too expensive, it’s best to trade them earlier on and get something for them before your back is against the wall and have to sweeten the pot. Perfect example. If Sharp was traded earlier, and Seabrook not given that massive extension. We could have gotten free agents and or assets to rebuild. I know it’s tough to say goodbye to beloved players. I fully get it. It sucks. But you identify your core 4 and build around them. Let go of all spare parts when they want the big bucks, get good young assets, rinse and repeat. The Hawks need to do the same thing. Put their faith in asset management. Not just for a rebuild, but for the long haul!!! In retrospect, do you really think the Legume-reckoner would have had the HockeyIQ and Foreseight to not only move Sharp and not re-sign Seabs, but also start the rebuild then? I sure don't. But taking off of your post: who are the core-4? Right now the only player in my estimation that qualifies is Debrincat--and he's the catch-22. Jones maybe by proxy of his albatross contract, but who else? Toews and Kane aren't the future in spite of all they done for us. |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 27, 2022 10:05:15 GMT -6
Potter said it was for balanced scoring I thought but wouldn't you put your goal score back in the top six when his shoulder got better? True but I don't think it got better till the offseason. It was his right shoulder so his bottom hand, if it was his top hand it'd be a lot harder to play with. I think it was against the Oilers cause I told my ex her team is dirty lol As you know Debrincat is tough cause some of the hits he took would've put guys out, even in juniors he took some huge hits, usually while he was shooting and scoring but he'd bounce back up. Hopefully KD starts the negotiation at 5-6yrs around 7-8per, unlike the last guy who'd start high. I'd think a checking role would be harder on an injured shoulder and NOlander needed those top six minutes to become the man he is today.....  It healed up none the less though and D-Cat's play since his ill-fated year......132gms 73gls 133pts. 'Kill the thrill' got 9MX5 as a 23yro with only one shortened season under his belt and the Wild are doing BACK-FLIPS over the deal now........I like the Cat a lot but I'd go no higher or longer myself. |
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Post by Nikos on Apr 27, 2022 10:20:22 GMT -6
When you make a mistake, it is never wise to double down. Two wrongs don't make a right. As you know, I like Jones a great deal, but that trade/signing right now looks bad. If we could turn back the clock and fire Bowman before he pulled the trigger, you know I would support that. Still, I'm less concerned about Jones than the potential Debrincat contract because core defencemen tend to have much longer careers than scoring wingers. If I am going to lock up a player long term, it is a first-pairing defenceman. Good ones who play 25-30 minutes a game are so difficult to find. They can remain effective well into their thirties. Debrincat is going to be re-signed this summer. I have little doubt. My projected numbers for his contract might be low. His agent holds all the cards here, and the marketing team needs a star to build its campaign around. Hopefully the cap explodes over the next decade. I like Jones as a player myself and I've also mentioned acquiring a #1 D-man is always expensive..........especially when the team couldn't draft one with ALL those picks. Coulda had one in Sieder though! Jones also went to shit as the year went along,I remember saying "he could have 50 points by New Years"........he has 51 this morning. I dislike the contract as much as I like the player,he'll be 31 with 1,000 games on the tires with four years of 9.5M,FIVE MILLION in bonuses until the end making a buy-out useless with FNMC left! Let's hope the cap explodes indeed! Those big minutes and blocked shots caught up with guys like Seabs and Hammer in their early 30's......not to mention the JAW DROPPING assets given up for a player who could of been had as an UFA this summer. The question is why did Bowman trade and give up all those assets, sign him to a market setting max contract, when he could have waited a year and signed him as UFA? The answers are speculation of course. I recall Dallas was the other rumored team where Jones was born (Arlington, TX). Did Bowman fear Dallas would trade for him? Was Dallas going to try and trade Klingberg then? They did wind up signing Suter once he was bought out. They of course already in my mind have a top defensemen in Heiskanen and signed him on 7/19/21 to a max contract ($67.6M). Btw, the Jones trade was 7/23/21, right after the Heiskanen signing. Was old Stanley bidding against himself again, possibly? Did the Jackets GM pull a "Scott Boras" and create a false market for Jones? Boras is well known to drive cost higher for his baseball clients with ghost bidders. Did the Jackets GM tell Bowman I have 5 other serious offers out there? I know Bowman has been quoted as saying when a #1 defensemen becomes available you try to do everything possible to acquire him and how rare they are indeed available. Is this the reason then? What was he drafting with the #8 pick in Boqvist? Typically when you draft a defensemen that high the thought is he will became a top pair or possibly a number #1. Is Jones play this year a reflection on the overall team and how bad they are? This type of acquisition is suppose to elevate your team, take the pressure off others, slot them lower with better matchups. I have not seen this effect at all this year with Jones and the team. The contract in the back half might be even worse that the one Bowman gave Seabs. Btw, I love Seabs (Mr. OT playoffs stud), met him several times, what a nice guy. He deserved it. I like some others do not mind Jones, but why did old Stanley give up all those assets? Not sure we will ever know. |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 27, 2022 10:32:30 GMT -6
I’ve shared my love for Kane. But if he thinks this thing can turn around quick, he will never be management material. First off. The Kings started their rebuild about 5 years ago around 2016-17. The problem is they traded all their assets except 2-3 of them. But they traded a lot of guys along the way. Now they’ve got about 7-8 good kids. And a bunch of vets. The Rags kept more of their guys and added free agents and added a few kids. But the Rags will be in full rebuild mode in the next few years and cap hell. I’d rather just get it over with and actually build from within this time. Don’t go out and sign too many UFAs. When a player gets too expensive, it’s best to trade them earlier on and get something for them before your back is against the wall and have to sweeten the pot. Perfect example. If Sharp was traded earlier, and Seabrook not given that massive extension. We could have gotten free agents and or assets to rebuild. I know it’s tough to say goodbye to beloved players. I fully get it. It sucks. But you identify your core 4 and build around them. Let go of all spare parts when they want the big bucks, get good young assets, rinse and repeat. The Hawks need to do the same thing. Put their faith in asset management. Not just for a rebuild, but for the long haul!!! In retrospect, do you really think the Legume-reckoner would have had the HockeyIQ and Foreseight to not only move Sharp and not re-sign Seabs, but also start the rebuild then? I sure don't. But taking off of your post: who are the core-4? Right now the only player in my estimation that qualifies is Debrincat--and he's the catch-22. Jones maybe by proxy of his albatross contract, but who else? Toews and Kane aren't the future in spite of all they done for us. Re-signing Seabs,if done correctly could have been the proper move but his deal seems like DUMBASS just handed his agent a blank contract and said 'have at it'! I agreed with the 1M raise to 6.8M at time because the team was still competitive and only a year removed from a cup when it kicked in but the DEVIL was in the awful details that'll haunt the team for a few more years. I believe a good GM would have offered 7M BUT for only five years with maybe a L-NTC........if the 31yro(at the time) turned it down,I believe the fans would have been on the side of the GM. A five year deal would have been a non-issue now or certainly less of one. Could this deal have been made worse? Leave it too DUMBASS....how TF can the most cap strapped team in the league figure out how to burry Seabs' LTIR $$$ every year and a team with tons of space couldn't?  WTF!!!! If we take an old,injured and declining Tyler Johnson off Tanpa's hands at the tune of 5MX3,we outta got picks or prospects and dealt with Seabs deal ourselves. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 27, 2022 10:51:13 GMT -6
Lord: You are absolutely correct - it is possible that Debrincat is still the same player in his mid thirties. Yes, Kane is still chugging along.
But how likely is it? What are the odds here? If you are re-signing him, you are in effect betting on this probability. Is it a worthwhile gamble?
Of the core Hawks from the championship years, only Kane remained effective through his entire contract. All the others faced serious decline well before their contracts ended.
Kane is the exception, not the rule.
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Post by hsbob on Apr 27, 2022 10:54:22 GMT -6
I like Jones as a player myself and I've also mentioned acquiring a #1 D-man is always expensive..........especially when the team couldn't draft one with ALL those picks. Coulda had one in Sieder though! Jones also went to shit as the year went along,I remember saying "he could have 50 points by New Years"........he has 51 this morning. I dislike the contract as much as I like the player,he'll be 31 with 1,000 games on the tires with four years of 9.5M,FIVE MILLION in bonuses until the end making a buy-out useless with FNMC left! Let's hope the cap explodes indeed! Those big minutes and blocked shots caught up with guys like Seabs and Hammer in their early 30's......not to mention the JAW DROPPING assets given up for a player who could of been had as an UFA this summer. The question is why did Bowman trade and give up all those assets, sign him to a market setting max contract, when he could have waited a year and signed him as UFA? The answers are speculation of course. I recall Dallas was the other rumored team where Jones was born (Arlington, TX). Did Bowman fear Dallas would trade for him? Was Dallas going to try and trade Klingberg then? They did wind up signing Suter once he was bought out. They of course already in my mind have a top defensemen in Heiskanen and signed him on 7/19/21 to a max contract ($67.6M). Btw, the Jones trade was 7/23/21, right after the Heiskanen signing. Was old Stanley bidding against himself again, possibly? Did the Jackets GM pull a "Scott Boras" and create a false market for Jones? Boras is well known to drive cost higher for his baseball clients with ghost bidders. Did the Jackets GM tell Bowman I have 5 other serious offers out there? I know Bowman has been quoted as saying when a #1 defensemen becomes available you try to do everything possible to acquire him and how rare they are indeed available. Is this the reason then? What was he drafting with the #8 pick in Boqvist? Typically when you draft a defensemen that high the thought is he will became a top pair or possibly a number #1. Is Jones play this year a reflection on the overall team and how bad they are? This type of acquisition is suppose to elevate your team, take the pressure off others, slot them lower with better matchups. I have not seen this effect at all this year with Jones and the team. The contract in the back half might be even worse that the one Bowman gave Seabs. Btw, I love Seabs (Mr. OT playoffs stud), met him several times, what a nice guy. He deserved it. I like some others do not mind Jones, but why did old Stanley give up all those assets? Not sure we will ever know. Unfortunately YES he was and I mentioned this at the time of the signing....it was public info. I believe Jones said only Dallas and Chicago were interested in negotiating a new deal,which Jones demanded. I didn't remember the exact timeline (thank you) but I knew Dallas had given their guy a BIG re-do before the signing yet it was Jones' camp that somehow still got everything they wanted! As did Columbus. Wait till he's an UFA this summer? see what the market bares? Give up no assets? A 7 year term instead of 8? Not if you're DUMBASS!! |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 27, 2022 11:04:11 GMT -6
Lord: You are absolutely correct - it is possible that Debrincat is still the same player in his mid thirties. Yes, Kane is still chugging along. But how likely is it? What are the odds here? If you are re-signing him, you are in effect betting on this probability. Is it a worthwhile gamble? Of the core Hawks from the championship years, only Kane remained effective through his entire contract. All the others faced serious decline well before their contracts ended. Kane is the exception, not the rule. I'm at the point where I realize the team can't win even if Kane and Cat stay and have great years but is the required age for a proper rebuild now 22-23 and under? Do we keep or acquire any players past this age? |
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Post by LordKOTL on Apr 27, 2022 11:33:14 GMT -6
Lord: You are absolutely correct - it is possible that Debrincat is still the same player in his mid thirties. Yes, Kane is still chugging along. But how likely is it? What are the odds here? If you are re-signing him, you are in effect betting on this probability. Is it a worthwhile gamble? Of the core Hawks from the championship years, only Kane remained effective through his entire contract. All the others faced serious decline well before their contracts ended. Kane is the exception, not the rule. I honestly think Debrincat might be an exception given that the game he plays is similar to Kane's in that he is pretty much a pure O guy. While his defense won't shoot the team in the foot, he's not Hossa; no one is Hossa except maybe Datsyuk (or rather Hossa is a non-center Datsyuk). Ergo, any competent hockey mind (read: no one of Bowman's ilk) would not try to shoehorn Debrincat into a role requiring him to soak up a tonne of minutes in all 3 zones. He's not Toews. If his deployment is similar to Kane's he should do just fine well into his 30's. If you're re-singing Debrincat to an 8yr deal, like what BigT says, he has to forego either cap or clauses. Assuming that is the case--that the 'hawks are intent on re-singing him, that they cannot have him pretend to be something he's not. He's gotta be treated like Kane; you expect him to drive the O; you don't expect him to be a D-stalwart. That was never placed on Kane's shoulders; if he was on the PK it was with the intent to score a shortie. Debrincat might have a bit better D-fundamentals thank Kane, but I would not expect Debrincat to be given the responsibility of defending against guys like McDavid and Draisaitl. We don't expect that out of Kane, either. Toews, Yes. Hossa, yes and he was one of the best at it. A valid worry moving forward is that we don't have 3-zone FWDs in the lineup and Debrincat might be shoehorned into that role--like expecting Debrincat to be a LW Toews, and as such his numbers tailing off. This does go back to your point about Debrincat being more one-dimensional, and the 'hawks needing to be careful about rebuilding with players like that because it can take cap away from acquiring the assets to cover for holes in gameplay, but then the question is, is Debrincat's O worth it? I think it can be, but in the save vein I also understand that Debrincat can fetch a ton of pieces which are "right player/right time" for the rebuild. There's also the valid concern that without a good setup guy Debrincat's numbers will drop, not bottom-out, but drop. So thinking about it like that the 'hawks would need support in good 3-zone players elsewhere in the lineup and a set-up guy to maximize Debrincat's O--vs selling Debrincat and hoping the spoils will get players who have multiple dimensions. Either can work with good minds behind the moves. Now, granted saying that Debrincat is one-dimensional doesn't mean I think Debrincat sucks; far from it. Kane is one-dimensional as well and well-worth it. Debrincat is one of the best finishers I've ever seen and I like the fact that even though he's small he has a hell of a lot of snarl--plus he's not a liability in the backend like 50% of the defense we're icing. The difference is Kane came in riding an excellent team put together by an actual hockey mind and was indeed the right guy at the right time. If he stays he's a player who we'll have to build around--meaning focusing on a set-up guy and players further into the lineup who can shutdown. If he goes we might get assets who can expedite the rebuild. If he stays he might be mired with worse personnel and might never get a cup, but he will be THE guy in Chicago. If he goes he might have better personnel around him but he might never be that guy. Six of one; half a dozen of the other. |
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Post by squishy24 on Apr 27, 2022 11:55:32 GMT -6
True but I don't think it got better till the offseason. It was his right shoulder so his bottom hand, if it was his top hand it'd be a lot harder to play with. I think it was against the Oilers cause I told my ex her team is dirty lol As you know Debrincat is tough cause some of the hits he took would've put guys out, even in juniors he took some huge hits, usually while he was shooting and scoring but he'd bounce back up. Hopefully KD starts the negotiation at 5-6yrs around 7-8per, unlike the last guy who'd start high. I'd think a checking role would be harder on an injured shoulder and NOlander needed those top six minutes to become the man he is today..... It healed up none the less though and D-Cat's play since his ill-fated year......132gms 73gls 133pts. 'Kill the thrill' got 9MX5 as a 23yro with only one shortened season under his belt and the Wild are doing BACK-FLIPS over the deal now........I like the Cat a lot but I'd go no higher or longer myself. according to Capfriendly, Dcat's base salary next season is 9mil. IF he has another 40 goal season (maybe even just 30), re-signing will warrant a raise from that. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a 10m caphit |
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Post by Nikos on Apr 27, 2022 12:07:13 GMT -6
The question is why did Bowman trade and give up all those assets, sign him to a market setting max contract, when he could have waited a year and signed him as UFA? The answers are speculation of course. I recall Dallas was the other rumored team where Jones was born (Arlington, TX). Did Bowman fear Dallas would trade for him? Was Dallas going to try and trade Klingberg then? They did wind up signing Suter once he was bought out. They of course already in my mind have a top defensemen in Heiskanen and signed him on 7/19/21 to a max contract ($67.6M). Btw, the Jones trade was 7/23/21, right after the Heiskanen signing. Was old Stanley bidding against himself again, possibly? Did the Jackets GM pull a "Scott Boras" and create a false market for Jones? Boras is well known to drive cost higher for his baseball clients with ghost bidders. Did the Jackets GM tell Bowman I have 5 other serious offers out there? I know Bowman has been quoted as saying when a #1 defensemen becomes available you try to do everything possible to acquire him and how rare they are indeed available. Is this the reason then? What was he drafting with the #8 pick in Boqvist? Typically when you draft a defensemen that high the thought is he will became a top pair or possibly a number #1. Is Jones play this year a reflection on the overall team and how bad they are? This type of acquisition is suppose to elevate your team, take the pressure off others, slot them lower with better matchups. I have not seen this effect at all this year with Jones and the team. The contract in the back half might be even worse that the one Bowman gave Seabs. Btw, I love Seabs (Mr. OT playoffs stud), met him several times, what a nice guy. He deserved it. I like some others do not mind Jones, but why did old Stanley give up all those assets? Not sure we will ever know. Unfortunately YES he was and I mentioned this at the time of the signing....it was public info. I believe Jones said only Dallas and Chicago were interested in negotiating a new deal,which Jones demanded. I didn't remember the exact timeline (thank you) but I knew Dallas had given their guy a BIG re-do before the signing yet it was Jones' camp that somehow still got everything they wanted! As did Columbus. Wait till he's an UFA this summer? see what the market bares? Give up no assets? A 7 year term instead of 8? Not if you're DUMBASS!! So Bowman right after Heiskanen sets the market for top D at $67M, he decides lets give Jones approx. $1M per year more, knowing every dollar is so important. Then he trades for MAF, sure gets a 2nd round pick, no salary retain by Knights and then decides lets move Seabs for a pick and take on Johnson full salary. Who in the "hell" did he bounce this off? Himself? Btw, he also signed McCabe coming off a serious knee injury and remember him saying well he has Chicago roots and he has been training hard, not sure what other teams were busting down the door to sign him. This in a nutshell is the reason we now have to consider trading Debrincat. |
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Post by Nikos on Apr 27, 2022 12:32:07 GMT -6
Lord: You are absolutely correct - it is possible that Debrincat is still the same player in his mid thirties. Yes, Kane is still chugging along. But how likely is it? What are the odds here? If you are re-signing him, you are in effect betting on this probability. Is it a worthwhile gamble? Of the core Hawks from the championship years, only Kane remained effective through his entire contract. All the others faced serious decline well before their contracts ended. Kane is the exception, not the rule. I honestly think Debrincat might be an exception given that the game he plays is similar to Kane's in that he is pretty much a pure O guy. While his defense won't shoot the team in the foot, he's not Hossa; no one is Hossa except maybe Datsyuk (or rather Hossa is a non-center Datsyuk). Ergo, any competent hockey mind (read: no one of Bowman's ilk) would not try to shoehorn Debrincat into a role requiring him to soak up a tonne of minutes in all 3 zones. He's not Toews. If his deployment is similar to Kane's he should do just fine well into his 30's. If you're re-singing Debrincat to an 8yr deal, like what BigT says, he has to forego either cap or clauses. Assuming that is the case--that the 'hawks are intent on re-singing him, that they cannot have him pretend to be something he's not. He's gotta be treated like Kane; you expect him to drive the O; you don't expect him to be a D-stalwart. That was never placed on Kane's shoulders; if he was on the PK it was with the intent to score a shortie. Debrincat might have a bit better D-fundamentals thank Kane, but I would not expect Debrincat to be given the responsibility of defending against guys like McDavid and Draisaitl. We don't expect that out of Kane, either. Toews, Yes. Hossa, yes and he was one of the best at it. A valid worry moving forward is that we don't have 3-zone FWDs in the lineup and Debrincat might be shoehorned into that role--like expecting Debrincat to be a LW Toews, and as such his numbers tailing off. This does go back to your point about Debrincat being more one-dimensional, and the 'hawks needing to be careful about rebuilding with players like that because it can take cap away from acquiring the assets to cover for holes in gameplay, but then the question is, is Debrincat's O worth it? I think it can be, but in the save vein I also understand that Debrincat can fetch a ton of pieces which are "right player/right time" for the rebuild. There's also the valid concern that without a good setup guy Debrincat's numbers will drop, not bottom-out, but drop. So thinking about it like that the 'hawks would need support in good 3-zone players elsewhere in the lineup and a set-up guy to maximize Debrincat's O--vs selling Debrincat and hoping the spoils will get players who have multiple dimensions. Either can work with good minds behind the moves. Now, granted saying that Debrincat is one-dimensional doesn't mean I think Debrincat sucks; far from it. Kane is one-dimensional as well and well-worth it. Debrincat is one of the best finishers I've ever seen and I like the fact that even though he's small he has a hell of a lot of snarl--plus he's not a liability in the backend like 50% of the defense we're icing. The difference is Kane came in riding an excellent team put together by an actual hockey mind and was indeed the right guy at the right time. If he stays he's a player who we'll have to build around--meaning focusing on a set-up guy and players further into the lineup who can shutdown. If he goes we might get assets who can expedite the rebuild. If he stays he might be mired with worse personnel and might never get a cup, but he will be THE guy in Chicago. If he goes he might have better personnel around him but he might never be that guy. Six of one; half a dozen of the other. Lord, you make some very valid point and observations. As I read you post part of me says "hell ya" we need to keep him and then I step back and say we are not going be very good with him and Kane so need to move him to continue with rebuild. It sucks because we really do not have any finishers on the team (yes Kane can finish, but more of a set up man and possibly the best in the league right now, injury and all his dealing with) or with our prospect pool yet. His shot, release and finishing skills are elite. I will say he does take shifts on the penalty kill as well and also has assumed a leadership role on the team. This to me shows growth and maturity. Btw, there is nobody else like Hossa or the magician you mentioned from Detroit, I am trying to think of someone who is playing now. Maybe someone can help me came up with a few. |
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Post by BigT on Apr 27, 2022 12:50:14 GMT -6
I’ve shared my love for Kane. But if he thinks this thing can turn around quick, he will never be management material. First off. The Kings started their rebuild about 5 years ago around 2016-17. The problem is they traded all their assets except 2-3 of them. But they traded a lot of guys along the way. Now they’ve got about 7-8 good kids. And a bunch of vets. The Rags kept more of their guys and added free agents and added a few kids. But the Rags will be in full rebuild mode in the next few years and cap hell. I’d rather just get it over with and actually build from within this time. Don’t go out and sign too many UFAs. When a player gets too expensive, it’s best to trade them earlier on and get something for them before your back is against the wall and have to sweeten the pot. Perfect example. If Sharp was traded earlier, and Seabrook not given that massive extension. We could have gotten free agents and or assets to rebuild. I know it’s tough to say goodbye to beloved players. I fully get it. It sucks. But you identify your core 4 and build around them. Let go of all spare parts when they want the big bucks, get good young assets, rinse and repeat. The Hawks need to do the same thing. Put their faith in asset management. Not just for a rebuild, but for the long haul!!! In retrospect, do you really think the Legume-reckoner would have had the HockeyIQ and Foreseight to not only move Sharp and not re-sign Seabs, but also start the rebuild then? I sure don't. But taking off of your post: who are the core-4? Right now the only player in my estimation that qualifies is Debrincat--and he's the catch-22. Jones maybe by proxy of his albatross contract, but who else? Toews and Kane aren't the future in spite of all they done for us. I don’t believe there is a core player here. I really don’t. It seems Dcat is the lynchpin. If he’s removed the rest follow. And it’s not because I don’t value them, especially them, it’s simply because I do value them. They have value that’s unbelievable. Let’s say Toews stays. 12 goals ain’t gonna fetch much. Let’s say for Dcat they get something like this. Our original pick back from the BJs and Kent Johnson. Or Jake Sanderson and Ottawas 1st pick. Or Anaheim gives the Hawks Drysdale and their 1st. Something like that would be acceptable. 2 very good assets for one. Plus the money saved. As Tallon pointed out last week with Foley. The team needs 30 decent assets for a rebuild. Not all 1st rounders, but kids that look like they can play. Having competition is a good thing. Right now the org has a handful. That’s it. So getting 2-3 assets for one is a solid idea. And if they could get 2-3 more for Kane. Then their almost half way there, but still living on a prayer!!! The Seabs contract never should have had all 3 of the main ingredients. Just stupid. Sharp should have been dealt earlier while he had massive value. Hawks take 2 years to get back to the top. And another wave of Cup runs. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Apr 27, 2022 13:21:05 GMT -6
I honestly think Debrincat might be an exception given that the game he plays is similar to Kane's in that he is pretty much a pure O guy. While his defense won't shoot the team in the foot, he's not Hossa; no one is Hossa except maybe Datsyuk (or rather Hossa is a non-center Datsyuk). Ergo, any competent hockey mind (read: no one of Bowman's ilk) would not try to shoehorn Debrincat into a role requiring him to soak up a tonne of minutes in all 3 zones. He's not Toews. If his deployment is similar to Kane's he should do just fine well into his 30's. If you're re-singing Debrincat to an 8yr deal, like what BigT says, he has to forego either cap or clauses. Assuming that is the case--that the 'hawks are intent on re-singing him, that they cannot have him pretend to be something he's not. He's gotta be treated like Kane; you expect him to drive the O; you don't expect him to be a D-stalwart. That was never placed on Kane's shoulders; if he was on the PK it was with the intent to score a shortie. Debrincat might have a bit better D-fundamentals thank Kane, but I would not expect Debrincat to be given the responsibility of defending against guys like McDavid and Draisaitl. We don't expect that out of Kane, either. Toews, Yes. Hossa, yes and he was one of the best at it. A valid worry moving forward is that we don't have 3-zone FWDs in the lineup and Debrincat might be shoehorned into that role--like expecting Debrincat to be a LW Toews, and as such his numbers tailing off. This does go back to your point about Debrincat being more one-dimensional, and the 'hawks needing to be careful about rebuilding with players like that because it can take cap away from acquiring the assets to cover for holes in gameplay, but then the question is, is Debrincat's O worth it? I think it can be, but in the save vein I also understand that Debrincat can fetch a ton of pieces which are "right player/right time" for the rebuild. There's also the valid concern that without a good setup guy Debrincat's numbers will drop, not bottom-out, but drop. So thinking about it like that the 'hawks would need support in good 3-zone players elsewhere in the lineup and a set-up guy to maximize Debrincat's O--vs selling Debrincat and hoping the spoils will get players who have multiple dimensions. Either can work with good minds behind the moves. Now, granted saying that Debrincat is one-dimensional doesn't mean I think Debrincat sucks; far from it. Kane is one-dimensional as well and well-worth it. Debrincat is one of the best finishers I've ever seen and I like the fact that even though he's small he has a hell of a lot of snarl--plus he's not a liability in the backend like 50% of the defense we're icing. The difference is Kane came in riding an excellent team put together by an actual hockey mind and was indeed the right guy at the right time. If he stays he's a player who we'll have to build around--meaning focusing on a set-up guy and players further into the lineup who can shutdown. If he goes we might get assets who can expedite the rebuild. If he stays he might be mired with worse personnel and might never get a cup, but he will be THE guy in Chicago. If he goes he might have better personnel around him but he might never be that guy. Six of one; half a dozen of the other. Lord, you make some very valid point and observations. As I read you post part of me says "hell ya" we need to keep him and then I step back and say we are not going be very good with him and Kane so need to move him to continue with rebuild. It sucks because we really do not have any finishers on the team (yes Kane can finish, but more of a set up man and possibly the best in the league right now, injury and all his dealing with) or with our prospect pool yet. His shot, release and finishing skills are elite. I will say he does take shifts on the penalty kill as well and also has assumed a leadership role on the team. This to me shows growth and maturity. Btw, there is nobody else like Hossa or the magician you mentioned from Detroit, I am trying to think of someone who is playing now. Maybe someone can help me came up with a few. Debrincat can kill penalties and as I said he's not bad defensively--better than Kane in my estimation. But, with 2min left and up by 1 on a PK with McJesus and Draisaitl out, do you want Debrincat out there, or would you rather have Toews, Sharp, Hossa, or hell even Bolland or Kruger. Granted, Bolland or Kruger couldn't even sniff Debrincat's jock on O, but those guys were defensive forwards. Now that being said I'd rather have Debrincat out there than Kane, Strome, Kubalik, and the bulk of our current FWDs.  As I said elsewhere, where the 'hawks are is really a testament to how badly Bowman screwed the team. All we got is Debrincat. It would suck losing him, but it would also suck if we kept him and couldn't build around him because of all the albatross contracts Bowman saddled us with. P.S. Some people say Bergeron. I personally think Bergeron, Toews, O'Reilly, etc. are on a step below Hossa and Datsyuk. Not that any of the aforementioned are bad defensively; they are indeed elite defensively. Datsyuk and Hossa were just on another level--kinda like comparing Toews' setup ability to Kane's. Toews is excellent, Kane is just unreal. In retrospect, do you really think the Legume-reckoner would have had the HockeyIQ and Foreseight to not only move Sharp and not re-sign Seabs, but also start the rebuild then? I sure don't. But taking off of your post: who are the core-4? Right now the only player in my estimation that qualifies is Debrincat--and he's the catch-22. Jones maybe by proxy of his albatross contract, but who else? Toews and Kane aren't the future in spite of all they done for us. I don’t believe there is a core player here. I really don’t. It seems Dcat is the lynchpin. If he’s removed the rest follow. And it’s not because I don’t value them, especially the simply because I do value them. They have value that’s unbelievable. Let’s say Toews stays. 12 goals ain’t gonna fetch much. Let’s say for Dcat they get something like this. Our original pick back from the BJs and Kent Johnson. Or Jake Sanderson and Ottawas 1st pick. Or Anaheim gives the Hawks Drysdale and their 1st. Something like that would be acceptable. 2 very good assets for one. Plus the money saved. As Tallon pointed out last week with Foley. The team needs 30 decent assets for a rebuild. Not all 1st rounders, but kids that look like they can play. Having competition is a good thing. Right now the org has a handful. That’s it. So getting 2-3 assets for one is a solid idea. And if they could get 2-3 more for Kane. Then their almost half way there, but still living on a prayer!!! The Seabs contract never should have had all 3 of the main ingredients. Just stupid. Sharp should have been dealt earlier while he had massive value. Hawks take 2 years to get back to the top. And another wave of Cup runs. I can see that. I think Debrincat *can* be a core player, but as mentioned; right player/wrong time. Toews and Kane are on the outs--mid-30's is old in hockey years. Beyond that the team looks worse than an open autopsy. I don't have any issues with those projected moves. I don't know if they would happen, but something like that is what I would be driving at in terms of a good acquisition for him. The thing I don't want to happen would be for us to trade him for the rights to someone like Dustin Brown or Phil Kessel; which is something the previous GM probably would have done. We'll just have to see how it goes. If we could stomach Vorobiev we could stomach this. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 27, 2022 14:44:01 GMT -6
Lord: You are absolutely correct - it is possible that Debrincat is still the same player in his mid thirties. Yes, Kane is still chugging along. But how likely is it? What are the odds here? If you are re-signing him, you are in effect betting on this probability. Is it a worthwhile gamble? Of the core Hawks from the championship years, only Kane remained effective through his entire contract. All the others faced serious decline well before their contracts ended. Kane is the exception, not the rule. I'm at the point where I realize the team can't win even if Kane and Cat stay and have great years but is the required age for a proper rebuild now 22-23 and under? Do we keep or acquire any players past this age? Bob- The issue is that Debrincat - because of his solid play/numbers - has become too expensive to stay. If Debrincat was willing to go shorter term (four years - with no strings), I am fully on board with keeping him. But of course he won't, and why should he? No question about it - some team will give him eight years, $10 M with a NMC - the minute he hits UFA year at the end of next year. I understand you and Hawkey think I have a hate-on for the player. The actual truth is that I have always been weary of signing big name UFAs to long term deals. Years ago, on the old boards, there was a poster name Joolzie who loved Martin Havlat. You probably remember her - she was very informed. When it came time to re-sign the player, she and I were in constant battle. I made very similar arguments then that I have about Debrincat this year. Havlat was entering his UFA period. He was an enormous talent - at least before the injuries hit. But the team was rebuilding. Havlat was a one dimensional scoring winger. I did not hate Havlat then, and I do not hate Debrincat now. It is all about the money and the contract. I believe not signing Havlat and spending the money instead on an elite two-way power winger, Marion Hossa, was a key turning point. The reason to keep Dach and Reichel and some of the others is because these players have no choice but to re-sign small contracts with low term and no strings (i.e. NMC). Until the team is closer to contending, I want maximum roster flexibility. |
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Post by mvr on Apr 27, 2022 19:20:34 GMT -6
Tonight's opponent is a case study of what not to do.
Not so long ago, Vegas was loaded with young talent, draft picks and cap space. They were the envy of the entire league.
Then they squandered it all on several "big name" veteran players with long term NMCs. Now they won't make the playoffs.
Not surprising, at least to my mind, is that their expensive core has been decimated by injuries. Pacioretty has only played 37 games, Stone 35, and Eichel 32. Lehner is done for the season.
Hockey players typically start declining physically very early. But older players cost more.
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debrincat
Apr 27, 2022 21:17:51 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by BigT on Apr 27, 2022 21:17:51 GMT -6
Dallas is a team that’s probably looking to get some talent back in there. I’ve had the pleasure of watching Wyatt Johnston for the last two years. He took the next step and then some in the OHL. He was drafted last year, came back and led the OHL in scoring with 124 points in 68 games for an 18 year old is something else. He’s 6’2” 181 center, scoring machine. Picked 23 overall in last years draft. But that draft was skewed do to Covid. Dallas also has another good young player in Thomas Harley a 6’3” 205 Left shot dman. He’s a scoring dman too. In 2020-21 for Dallas’s farm team he had 8 goals 17 assists for 25 points in 38 games. He only had 11 assists in 25 games this year. But they weren’t all in succession he was up and down all year. Only 21 years old.
Now, I think the Hawks could get a roster player and a 1st round pick with those two for Dcat. Might be a solid move all around. And possibly a lot more if the Hawks took back Ben Bishops contract. Maybe even 2 1st rounders as that would give Dallas 5 million more to play with. These are the types of moves I’d like to see!!!
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Apr 27, 2022 22:50:14 GMT -6
Debrincat is 11th overall in the league in takeaways, pretty good for a guy who's "average at best" at D.
If they trade him it better be a big return but if Kane wants to stay I doubt Debrincat is going anywhere.
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Post by bigbarn27 on Apr 27, 2022 23:42:10 GMT -6
Lots of good stuff here you guys even better when MVR and Bob are not name calling. Cat will just be a RFA with arb rights after next year. I have a feeling no one goes anywhere this summer. I dont think you get much more
if its the summer or at next years TDL. KD holds all the cards can wait things out. As all have said the haul needs to be huge for Cat also if Cat goes ,Kane goes I would assume. Everyone talks about full rebuild(wings)
partial rebuild (Rags). Maybe the best thing is to trade all of them, I just dont want to do it.
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Post by BigT on Apr 28, 2022 6:47:38 GMT -6
Lots of good stuff here you guys even better when MVR and Bob are not name calling. Cat will just be a RFA with arb rights after next year. I have a feeling no one goes anywhere this summer. I dont think you get much more if its the summer or at next years TDL. KD holds all the cards can wait things out. As all have said the haul needs to be huge for Cat also if Cat goes ,Kane goes I would assume. Everyone talks about full rebuild(wings) partial rebuild (Rags). Maybe the best thing is to trade all of them, I just dont want to do it. I agree with ya. My take is you either suck with them with no future, or you suck without them with a future. I’ll always take a future!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Apr 28, 2022 7:56:17 GMT -6
I'm at the point where I realize the team can't win even if Kane and Cat stay and have great years but is the required age for a proper rebuild now 22-23 and under? Do we keep or acquire any players past this age? Bob- The issue is that Debrincat - because of his solid play/numbers - has become too expensive to stay. If Debrincat was willing to go shorter term (four years - with no strings), I am fully on board with keeping him. But of course he won't, and why should he? No question about it - some team will give him eight years, $10 M with a NMC - the minute he hits UFA year at the end of next year. I understand you and Hawkey think I have a hate-on for the player. The actual truth is that I have always been weary of signing big name UFAs to long term deals. Years ago, on the old boards, there was a poster name Joolzie who loved Martin Havlat. You probably remember her - she was very informed. When it came time to re-sign the player, she and I were in constant battle. I made very similar arguments then that I have about Debrincat this year. Havlat was entering his UFA period. He was an enormous talent - at least before the injuries hit. But the team was rebuilding. Havlat was a one dimensional scoring winger. I did not hate Havlat then, and I do not hate Debrincat now. It is all about the money and the contract. I believe not signing Havlat and spending the money instead on an elite two-way power winger, Marion Hossa, was a key turning point. The reason to keep Dach and Reichel and some of the others is because these players have no choice but to re-sign small contracts with low term and no strings (i.e. NMC). Until the team is closer to contending, I want maximum roster flexibility. I asked that question seriously.........I know there'll be veteran fodder and fill along the way but how old should the KEY pieces for a real rebuild be in your opinion? I came to grips with the Hagle trade because the return is real but I did hear one of the reasons the trade made sense was Hagel would be in his late 20's when the team was ready to compete again and we were discussing how well D-Cat would hold up into his mid 30's. Since these guys ages of 23&24 ain't suitable for a rebuild.......I was wondering if under 20 is the target. He remains a RFA when his deal expires and even if he was an UFA,he could only be offered 7 years if signed on the open market. You're comparing the a 5'7" 165lb kid who's yet to miss a game to injury and potted 40+ twice so far in five years,two of em shortened(easily would have been three in five years if Covid didn't F up 20-21) to a 6'2" 210lb often injured Havlat who saw 31 once..........why would OTH and I think that? D-Cat's also tougher and plays better D than Marty did and he's a head shorter. |
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. Maybe with a roster worth a squirt of piss and a coach worth a squirt of piss he'd be effective there.
WTF!!!! If we take an old,injured and declining Tyler Johnson off Tanpa's hands at the tune of 5MX3,we outta got picks or prospects and dealt with Seabs deal ourselves.
