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Post by gigecj on May 18, 2020 23:04:17 GMT -6
Full Disclosure: I am not a basketball fan. I'm a fan of the Bulls (especially MJ), Fighting Illini or even DePaul and Loyola, Chgo if, and only if, there's legit reason to be excited. There's no room for this sport whatsoever when one of "my teams" struggle which is unlike baseball, hockey and football.
I just binge-watched all 10 episodes of "The Last Dance" concluding this evening. I was warned by many that Michael Jordan would not be presented in a good light. I say this: I saw nothing that I didn't already know. In fact, I'd say the "bad things" I did know such as his bullying style with teammates actually had a silver lining as his leadership, however bully-oriented, drove the team to greatness and SIX rings in eight years.
If Micheal Jordan isn't arguably the greatest athlete (talent, ultimate winner, would take on any challenge and beat it) who ever lived, I think you'd have a difficult argument to get me off that pedestal. I know the guys you'd choose: Gretzky, LeBron and Walter Payton would likely be among them and I feel that I'm tempted to present my argument, but I'm more interested in what you guys would have to say without any argumentative provocation.
If the title "Last Dance" had been replaced with the title "Michael Jordan," nobody would have balked.
I feel very fortunate to have lived in Chicago for all six of MJ's championships squeezed between five years in Colorado ('85-'89 I was a "ski bum") and this Seattle area move.
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Post by vadarx on May 19, 2020 2:34:38 GMT -6
I thoroughly enjoyed it, gig. it was a nice trip back down memory lane for me, personally. growing up surrounded by pistons fans as a kid in junior high and high school, that first 3-peat I probably enjoyed more than the second.... of course, by the time the second one came around at the end of high school, most of them were Bulls fans, lol.
MJ is the GOAT. end of discussion.
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Post by hsbob on May 19, 2020 7:15:48 GMT -6
Interest in B-ball has dropped off considerably over the years for me but we played a lot when I was younger,it was either that,softball or it's lineball version if we didn't have enough burn-outs for full teams. I do however recall my interest in the early '70's Bulls teams with "Butterbean','Chet the jet',Stormin Norman and the great Jerry sloan(not to slight the other three) and the Artis Gilmore acquisition renewed my interest until they traded him for Dave Corzine and Mark Oberding two years after signing him to a 'lifetime' deal. Gilmore was a BEAST of a center and better that any in the championship years.
The Bulls ability to win six without the classic big man proved what Jordan brought and not many teams had a 6'7" small forward who brought the ball up the court either......none as a matter of fact,Pipen had his warts but his all around game complimented MJ perfectly. Horace for the first three and 'the worm' for the second three were absolute necessities too.
I enjoyed the series a great deal because it brought back the feeling of pride in my city and team and that was in short supply at that time with SB XX a distant menory. The Bears couldn't maintain after their SB but the Bulls dominated a decade.
I'll never forget Kruse runnin' Phil out of town only to get another three-preat and five more with a Lakers team that was doing little but getting coaches fired before his arrival and that was with Koby and Shaq.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 8:43:52 GMT -6
I was never a fan of Michael Jordan, and when I started watching this I wasn't aware it was mostly about his career, and not about the Bulls as a team. This just reiterated what I already felt about him, it's all about him, and throwing teammates and opponents under the bus, opening up wounds from years past, was his way to get solidly back into the limelight. Maybe his sneaker sales were dropping, I'm not sure, but my opinion of him was completely reinforced, that he's pompous and it's still all about him.
I took offense when he decided to play baseball, and could because his name was Michael Jordan. And he had an easy in as the owner of the Bulls was also the owner of the White Sox. As a baseball player myself (not to say I was ever good enough to go pro, but I did go to a tryout when in my 20's and on a scale of 1 to 5, I scored 3 across the board on hitting, running, throwing, and whatever else they tested on that day), it pissed me off that in order for Jordan to fulfill his fantasies, a kid who went thru HS and college, got drafted, and EARNED a spot on a minor league team, lost that position to a guy who was trying to fill time while he was out of basketball.
And I'm not convinced, no matter what the series said, that Jordan was not suspended from the game for gambling. Yes, I know he and Stern both denied that was the case, too many things point in that direction. And it wouldn't have looked good then, and it wouldn't look good now, for the NBA to admit to having what was their meal ticket (no denying that)had been suspended.
Now as for the Bulls, I am a huge fan. And I thoroughly enjoyed the season that Scottie Pippen (my favorite Bull of that era) led the team, and if not for a horrible call by a referee, might have won another championship. And my reasoning for loving that particular season, is I could watch a game in which the entire team was allowed to contribute. A great phrase I heard during the Jordan years was that the actual name of the offense that was run was the "Bermuda Triangle Offense", which was give the ball to Michael Jordan and you'll never see it again.
Being a leader isn't about being a bully. I was a huge fan of Horace Grant, and pretty pissed at him leaving the Bulls. But watching this series gave me the insight as to why he left. He wanted to feel like he was an important part of 3 championships, and didn't appreciate being treated as a second rate citizen.
I'm likely one of the few people in the world who feels this way about Jordan. But it is what it is. I don't tend to follow trends. I saw this for what it was. Jordan was a great talent, but a glorified ball hog. And he would have never won anything without the surrounding talent.
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Post by hsbob on May 19, 2020 9:33:48 GMT -6
I was never a fan of Michael Jordan, and when I started watching this I wasn't aware it was mostly about his career, and not about the Bulls as a team. This just reiterated what I already felt about him, it's all about him, and throwing teammates and opponents under the bus, opening up wounds from years past, was his way to get solidly back into the limelight. Maybe his sneaker sales were dropping, I'm not sure, but my opinion of him was completely reinforced, that he's pompous and it's still all about him. I took offense when he decided to play baseball, and could because his name was Michael Jordan. And he had an easy in as the owner of the Bulls was also the owner of the White Sox. As a baseball player myself (not to say I was ever good enough to go pro, but I did go to a tryout when in my 20's and on a scale of 1 to 5, I scored 3 across the board on hitting, running, throwing, and whatever else they tested on that day), it pissed me off that in order for Jordan to fulfill his fantasies, a kid who went thru HS and college, got drafted, and EARNED a spot on a minor league team, lost that position to a guy who was trying to fill time while he was out of basketball. And I'm not convinced, no matter what the series said, that Jordan was not suspended from the game for gambling. Yes, I know he and Stern both denied that was the case, too many things point in that direction. And it wouldn't have looked good then, and it wouldn't look good now, for the NBA to admit to having what was their meal ticket (no denying that)had been suspended. Now as for the Bulls, I am a huge fan. And I thoroughly enjoyed the season that Scottie Pippen (my favorite Bull of that era) led the team, and if not for a horrible call by a referee, might have won another championship. And my reasoning for loving that particular season, is I could watch a game in which the entire team was allowed to contribute. A great phrase I heard during the Jordan years was that the actual name of the offense that was run was the "Bermuda Triangle Offense", which was give the ball to Michael Jordan and you'll never see it again. Being a leader isn't about being a bully. I was a huge fan of Horace Grant, and pretty pissed at him leaving the Bulls. But watching this series gave me the insight as to why he left. He wanted to feel like he was an important part of 3 championships, and didn't appreciate being treated as a second rate citizen. I'm likely one of the few people in the world who feels this way about Jordan. But it is what it is. I don't tend to follow trends. I saw this for what it was. Jordan was a great talent, but a glorified ball hog. And he would have never won anything without the surrounding talent. MJ was pompous,arrogant and a bully at times but it was the price to pay for having a sport's GOAT that led a Chicago team to a dynasty. He took a lotta shots as do all great offensive players but he was also the defensive player of the year once and made the all defensive team nearly every year. The hiatus and baseball,I'll leave to the pundits. I was a HUGE Pip fan too and greatly enjoyed the 03-04 season until Hugh Hollands derailed it with a TERRIBLE call against NY. Scottie Pipen came into the league as a shy,skinny,kid who Detroit was allowed to punch in the back of the head every time he went to the hole(you'd have a migraine too)and went on to revolutionize the position of point forward. He was called a 'human double-team' after he made Mark Jackson cry(LOL) on D,he brought the ball up and was rarely worse than 2nd in team scoring,rebounding,assists,steals and minutes...…..great all around baller. This 7 time all-star,8 time 1st team defender and six time champ is the only player ever to win a gold medal and NBA title in the same year twice(92&96). He's also in the HoF TWICE,for his individual career and as a member of two 'dream teams'. The 1.8 seconds was a bit of a stain that I got over easily and I agree with Pip when he asked what MJ woulda said to Phil about Kukoc taking the last shot. Horace Grant was also part of that courageous 03-04 team wo/MJ but I still remember his problem being with 'Crumbs' after he pulled the player off to the side at practice and pressured him to decide on a deal w/o his agent present much more than the way MJ treatred him. Magic doesn't win w/o Kareem and Worthy and Bird doesn't win w/o McHale and Parish...….MJ doesn't without Pip,Grant and/or Rodman either but MJ woulda been the GOAT regardless who drafted him IMO. blackhawkup.com/2020/05/18/stan-bowman-jerry-krause-chicago-blackhawks/edit: How ya doin' my friend? |
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Post by jimakablkhwks918 on May 19, 2020 13:09:30 GMT -6
Full Disclosure: I am not a basketball fan. I'm a fan of the Bulls (especially MJ), Fighting Illini or even DePaul and Loyola, Chgo if, and only if, there's legit reason to be excited. There's no room for this sport whatsoever when one of "my teams" struggle which is unlike baseball, hockey and football. I just binge-watched all 10 episodes of "The Last Dance" concluding this evening. I was warned by many that Michael Jordan would not be presented in a good light. I say this: I saw nothing that I didn't already know. In fact, I'd say the "bad things" I did know such as his bullying style with teammates actually had a silver lining as his leadership, however bully-oriented, drove the team to greatness and SIX rings in eight years. If Micheal Jordan isn't arguably the greatest athlete (talent, ultimate winner, would take on any challenge and beat it) who ever lived, I think you'd have a difficult argument to get me off that pedestal. I know the guys you'd choose: Gretzky, LeBron and Walter Payton would likely be among them and I feel that I'm tempted to present my argument, but I'm more interested in what you guys would have to say without any argumentative provocation. If the title "Last Dance" had been replaced with the title "Michael Jordan," nobody would have balked. I feel very fortunate to have lived in Chicago for all six of MJ's championships squeezed between five years in Colorado ('85-'89 I was a "ski bum") and this Seattle area move. Athlete? Or team sports player? The former, Bo Jackson, the latter, Jordan. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 19:29:15 GMT -6
Horace Grant not too happy with the Last Dance
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 19:41:00 GMT -6
I was never a fan of Michael Jordan, and when I started watching this I wasn't aware it was mostly about his career, and not about the Bulls as a team. This just reiterated what I already felt about him, it's all about him, and throwing teammates and opponents under the bus, opening up wounds from years past, was his way to get solidly back into the limelight. Maybe his sneaker sales were dropping, I'm not sure, but my opinion of him was completely reinforced, that he's pompous and it's still all about him. I took offense when he decided to play baseball, and could because his name was Michael Jordan. And he had an easy in as the owner of the Bulls was also the owner of the White Sox. As a baseball player myself (not to say I was ever good enough to go pro, but I did go to a tryout when in my 20's and on a scale of 1 to 5, I scored 3 across the board on hitting, running, throwing, and whatever else they tested on that day), it pissed me off that in order for Jordan to fulfill his fantasies, a kid who went thru HS and college, got drafted, and EARNED a spot on a minor league team, lost that position to a guy who was trying to fill time while he was out of basketball. And I'm not convinced, no matter what the series said, that Jordan was not suspended from the game for gambling. Yes, I know he and Stern both denied that was the case, too many things point in that direction. And it wouldn't have looked good then, and it wouldn't look good now, for the NBA to admit to having what was their meal ticket (no denying that)had been suspended. Now as for the Bulls, I am a huge fan. And I thoroughly enjoyed the season that Scottie Pippen (my favorite Bull of that era) led the team, and if not for a horrible call by a referee, might have won another championship. And my reasoning for loving that particular season, is I could watch a game in which the entire team was allowed to contribute. A great phrase I heard during the Jordan years was that the actual name of the offense that was run was the "Bermuda Triangle Offense", which was give the ball to Michael Jordan and you'll never see it again. Being a leader isn't about being a bully. I was a huge fan of Horace Grant, and pretty pissed at him leaving the Bulls. But watching this series gave me the insight as to why he left. He wanted to feel like he was an important part of 3 championships, and didn't appreciate being treated as a second rate citizen. I'm likely one of the few people in the world who feels this way about Jordan. But it is what it is. I don't tend to follow trends. I saw this for what it was. Jordan was a great talent, but a glorified ball hog. And he would have never won anything without the surrounding talent. MJ was pompous,arrogant and a bully at times but it was the price to pay for having a sport's GOAT that led a Chicago team to a dynasty. He took a lotta shots as do all great offensive players but he was also the defensive player of the year once and made the all defensive team nearly every year. The hiatus and baseball,I'll leave to the pundits. I was a HUGE Pip fan too and greatly enjoyed the 03-04 season until Hugh Hollands derailed it with a TERRIBLE call against NY. Scottie Pipen came into the league as a shy,skinny,kid who Detroit was allowed to punch in the back of the head every time he went to the hole(you'd have a migraine too)and went on to revolutionize the position of point forward. He was called a 'human double-team' after he made Mark Jackson cry(LOL) on D,he brought the ball up and was rarely worse than 2nd in team scoring,rebounding,assists,steals and minutes...…..great all around baller. This 7 time all-star,8 time 1st team defender and six time champ is the only player ever to win a gold medal and NBA title in the same year twice(92&96). He's also in the HoF TWICE,for his individual career and as a member of two 'dream teams'. The 1.8 seconds was a bit of a stain that I got over easily and I agree with Pip when he asked what MJ woulda said to Phil about Kukoc taking the last shot. Horace Grant was also part of that courageous 03-04 team wo/MJ but I still remember his problem being with 'Crumbs' after he pulled the player off to the side at practice and pressured him to decide on a deal w/o his agent present much more than the way MJ treatred him. Magic doesn't win w/o Kareem and Worthy and Bird doesn't win w/o McHale and Parish...….MJ doesn't without Pip,Grant and/or Rodman either but MJ woulda been the GOAT regardless who drafted him IMO. blackhawkup.com/2020/05/18/stan-bowman-jerry-krause-chicago-blackhawks/edit: How ya doin' my friend? I'm hanging in Bob, how about you?
In reading the link, I guess there are some comparisons to the to GM's, but the difference is that Krause built the championship teams, then dismantled it, while Bowman inherited the team, claims of him being a cap guru to get things financially functional, which he has NEVER done, and because of his mismanagements put the Hawks into a tailspin they may never get out of. While not a fan of Jordan, Krause did allow for the Bulls to run the course, while Bowman is ruining the latter part of the careers of HOF players. Obviously one comparison of the 2 is neither liked being 2nd fiddle to the head coaches, both of whom will be in the HOF. Both were let go in very disrespectful manners. While Phil Jackson found out before the beginning of the final season (Krause with the ridiculous comment of he could go 82 and 0 and he wouldn't be back was the ultimate slap in the face of the man who drove the train), while Q gets axed just 15 games into the season after Rocky said both he and Bowman were on notice (but this seems to be the MO for the Hawks, look at how they fired Billy Raey and Dennis Savard). So there are comparisons between the 2. And hopefully we'll have one more comparison, and that is Bowman is no longer the GM of the Hawks.....As for Krause....RIP
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Post by hsbob on May 20, 2020 10:29:58 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 21:01:35 GMT -6
And now Pippen expresses his anger:
According to David Kaplan of ESPN 1000 in Chicago, Scottie Pippen, who won six NBA championships with Jordan and the Chicago Bulls during the ‘90s, is “so angry” and “beyond livid” at his teammate for how he came across in the documentary.
Pippen’s unhappiness derives from Jordan calling him "selfish" and that he "didn't realize what he was getting himself into" with the 10-part series that spanned five weeks.
"[Pippen] felt like up until the last few minutes of Game 6 against the Jazz [in the 1998 NBA Finals], it was just 'bash Scottie, bash Scottie, bash Scottie,'" Kaplan said.
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Post by hsbob on May 23, 2020 8:38:38 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 14:52:06 GMT -6
The back court of Van Lier and Sloan were both mean SOB's and dove all over the floor to get the ball. Add in Chet Walker and Bob Love, and Tom Borwinkle at center and it was the making of a pretty good team.
RIP Jerry Sloan
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