30
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 5, 2023 11:57:55 GMT -6
I like this idea. The player has four years left on his deal. Likely, you'd buy him out with one or two years left. It would cost the Canucks a haul to get rid of him without retaining salary..... Ekman-Larson plus a first rounder and one or two other picks. Zaitsev and an older prospect such as Mitchell go the other way. Zawaski touched on this the other day on the draft show. He never got into specifics. But he did say that the Nucks would want to see where their draft position is. And this is a move for the off season. However. I think for the Nucks to give up a 1st. They wouldn’t want a contract back. So I could see to rid themselves of that deal, they trade OEL, 1st rounder, prospect for 6th rounder. And I don’t think the prospect will be a “B” or lower. Probably one of their top 3. That’s a hefty deal to take on. Especially with 10.5 million owed this upcoming season. This gives the Nucks the opportunity to pursue other avenues in free agency and or keeping their guys. I can see this happening!!! Along the same lines, another option from the Canucks is Tyler Myers. Myers only has a single year left on his outrageous $6M/year deal. There is zero point in Vancouver buying him out given the structure of the contract and the minimal saving achieved. Perhaps if Davidson finds a taker for Murphy at the draft, he takes on Myers with a nice incentive package. I might prefer this option than OEL actually, given the shorter term left on this deal. Perhaps the Canucks throw in Pearson at half price (another contract they almost certainly would like to prune). |
|
|
|
Post by nighbor on Mar 5, 2023 23:08:50 GMT -6
The Hawks scouts better be good otherwise this rebuild will be 10+ years. Does Davidson even know the other teams GMs? Anybody can dump players around the league. He comes across as like a non hockey guy, He is no Dale Tallon thats for sure Your last statement is premature. There are some who want to give Talon sole credit for the core and the three cups. He was in charge starting with the 2005 draft and ending after the 2009 draft. In their first draft both started with the seventh pick. Talon hit the motherlode with Hjalmarsson in the fourth round but overall in my opinion KD was the winner. |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Mar 6, 2023 18:46:43 GMT -6
The Hawks scouts better be good otherwise this rebuild will be 10+ years. Does Davidson even know the other teams GMs? Anybody can dump players around the league. He comes across as like a non hockey guy, He is no Dale Tallon thats for sure Your last statement is premature. There are some who want to give Talon sole credit for the core and the three cups. He was in charge starting with the 2005 draft and ending after the 2009 draft. In their first draft both started with the seventh pick. Talon hit the motherlode with Hjalmarsson in the fourth round but overall in my opinion KD was the winner. Tallon had his misses as well. Hell, he botched Cam Barker at #3 and Bowman botched Kirby Dach at #3. We won't know how good KD and his picks are until well into the players' careers. That's one of the things about a true rebuild. It takes patience. It will still be years before we know exactly what we got in some of these guys. |
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Mar 6, 2023 19:28:07 GMT -6
Your last statement is premature. There are some who want to give Talon sole credit for the core and the three cups. He was in charge starting with the 2005 draft and ending after the 2009 draft. In their first draft both started with the seventh pick. Talon hit the motherlode with Hjalmarsson in the fourth round but overall in my opinion KD was the winner. Tallon had his misses as well. Hell, he botched Cam Barker at #3 and Bowman botched Kirby Dach at #3. We won't know how good KD and his picks are until well into the players' careers. That's one of the things about a true rebuild. It takes patience. It will still be years before we know exactly what we got in some of these guys. In all fairness to Barker. He was starting to really turn the corner. He got 40 points in 68 games. Then injuries occurred. Hard to skate on a trashed ankle. I know it’s easy to say he was a bust. I get it. But he never really got going in his career!!! |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Mar 6, 2023 20:10:55 GMT -6
Tallon had his misses as well. Hell, he botched Cam Barker at #3 and Bowman botched Kirby Dach at #3. We won't know how good KD and his picks are until well into the players' careers. That's one of the things about a true rebuild. It takes patience. It will still be years before we know exactly what we got in some of these guys. In all fairness to Barker. He was starting to really turn the corner. He got 40 points in 68 games. Then injuries occurred. Hard to skate on a trashed ankle. I know it’s easy to say he was a bust. I get it. But he never really got going in his career!!! I don't necessarily disagree, but he certainly wasn't was we hoped for a 3oa. You could also say the same for Dach, injury held him back but he wasn't what we hoped for on a 3oa. Maybe he can get a career going. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 7, 2023 9:33:34 GMT -6
Another aging player who falls into the same category as OEL and Myers is Kevin Hayes. Philadelphia apparently was shopping Hayes hard at the deadline. Allegedly, they were eager to get out from Hayes $7.1 M contract which still has three years left on it, and they were willing to eat some salary and float some prospects/picks to encourage a deal.
We all have some hard feelings regarding Hayes. If Hayes had signed in Chicago in 2014, who knows where the team would have ended up? Perhaps the window could have been extended for a couple of years. To my mind, losing out on Hayes represented one of Bowman's biggest disappointments.
Hayes carries a limited NTC. Chicago might not be on his list of preferred destinations. But if the player is willing to come here, I think he would be a good target. He still produces over 50 points a year. He plays a physical two-way game which will likely be attractive to trade suitors in three years time. His contract as a reverse tail, meaning the cap hit will exceed the actual dollars spent.
If I am Davidson, I would take Hayes on at full salary if the Flyers offer a suitable bribe (ie a couple of seconds and a fourth round pick).
|
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 7, 2023 9:37:23 GMT -6
Your last statement is premature. There are some who want to give Talon sole credit for the core and the three cups. He was in charge starting with the 2005 draft and ending after the 2009 draft. In their first draft both started with the seventh pick. Talon hit the motherlode with Hjalmarsson in the fourth round but overall in my opinion KD was the winner. Tallon had his misses as well. Hell, he botched Cam Barker at #3 and Bowman botched Kirby Dach at #3. We won't know how good KD and his picks are until well into the players' careers.
That's one of the things about a true rebuild. It takes patience. It will still be years before we know exactly what we got in some of these guys. Maybe with mid and later-round picks but don't we see highly touted,early first round picks make their mark in the league quickly these days? The system shows six forwards and six D-men 21 and over(not counting journeymen 25 or over)how much further into their careers before we know how good and how do those six D-men get a shot,or experience,or assessment with all the vets returning? |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 7, 2023 9:59:59 GMT -6
Another aging player who falls into the same category as OEL and Myers is Kevin Hayes. Philadelphia apparently was shopping Hayes hard at the deadline. Allegedly, they were eager to get out from Hayes $7.1 M contract which still has three years left on it, and they were willing to eat some salary and float some prospects/picks to encourage a deal. We all have some hard feelings regarding Hayes. If Hayes had signed in Chicago in 2014, who knows where the team would have ended up? Perhaps the window could have been extended for a couple of years. To my mind, losing out on Hayes represented one of Bowman's biggest disappointments. Hayes carries a limited NTC. Chicago might not be on his list of preferred destinations. But if the player is willing to come here, I think he would be a good target. He still produces over 50 points a year. He plays a physical two-way game which will likely be attractive to trade suitors in three years time. His contract as a reverse tail, meaning the cap hit will exceed the actual dollars spent. If I am Davidson, I would take Hayes on at full salary if the Flyers offer a suitable bribe (ie a couple of seconds and a fourth round pick). He'd fit the desired demographic too. Why not target other team's early 20 year old prospects who's careers might have plateaued,we've seen many players break-through in their mid 20's recently that few saw coming. The 'alure' of the veteran Hayes would be a strong one though. I understand patience,I want no kid rushed either and like most fans,I can stomach a bottom-feeder more easily watching a kid like Riechel play and improve. I have no interest in watching a botton-feeder laden with veterans stumblin' around for two more year and I doubt I'm alone. Maybe take JVR off their hands too,he would make fewer mistakes than one of those pesky kids. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 7, 2023 10:56:58 GMT -6
Another aging player who falls into the same category as OEL and Myers is Kevin Hayes. Philadelphia apparently was shopping Hayes hard at the deadline. Allegedly, they were eager to get out from Hayes $7.1 M contract which still has three years left on it, and they were willing to eat some salary and float some prospects/picks to encourage a deal. We all have some hard feelings regarding Hayes. If Hayes had signed in Chicago in 2014, who knows where the team would have ended up? Perhaps the window could have been extended for a couple of years. To my mind, losing out on Hayes represented one of Bowman's biggest disappointments. Hayes carries a limited NTC. Chicago might not be on his list of preferred destinations. But if the player is willing to come here, I think he would be a good target. He still produces over 50 points a year. He plays a physical two-way game which will likely be attractive to trade suitors in three years time. His contract as a reverse tail, meaning the cap hit will exceed the actual dollars spent. If I am Davidson, I would take Hayes on at full salary if the Flyers offer a suitable bribe (ie a couple of seconds and a fourth round pick). He'd fit the desired demographic too. Why not target other team's early 20 year old prospects who's careers might have plateaued,we've seen many players break-through in their mid 20's recently that few saw coming. The 'alure' of the veteran Hayes would be a strong one though. I understand patience,I want no kid rushed either and like most fans,I can stomach a bottom-feeder more easily watching a kid like Riechel play and improve. I have no interest in watching a botton-feeder laden with veterans stumblin' around for two more year and I doubt I'm alone. Maybe take JVR off their hands too,he would make fewer mistakes than one of those pesky kids. If Toews does not come back, the team will need a centre next year. If it is not Hayes, it will be someone else. I would rather the GM take on Hayes with a large incentive than outbid teams for someone like Domi. |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Mar 7, 2023 11:26:39 GMT -6
Tallon had his misses as well. Hell, he botched Cam Barker at #3 and Bowman botched Kirby Dach at #3. We won't know how good KD and his picks are until well into the players' careers.
That's one of the things about a true rebuild. It takes patience. It will still be years before we know exactly what we got in some of these guys. Maybe with mid and later-round picks but don't we see highly touted,early first round picks make their mark in the league quickly these days? The system shows six forwards and six D-men 21 and over(not counting journeymen 25 or over)how much further into their careers before we know how good and how do those six D-men get a shot,or experience,or assessment with all the vets returning? How many of those 21yo's are KD's guys? My point was we won't know how good KD's guys will be for awhile, not Bowman's guys he inherited. The other factor on why it will take awhile is there are guys who take the league by storm and then peter out. Think Sergei Samsonov. For all we know a guy like Korch comes in, sets the league on fire, then has a sophomore slump he never recovers from. I hope not, but it is possible. |
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Mar 7, 2023 11:45:49 GMT -6
He'd fit the desired demographic too. Why not target other team's early 20 year old prospects who's careers might have plateaued,we've seen many players break-through in their mid 20's recently that few saw coming. The 'alure' of the veteran Hayes would be a strong one though. I understand patience,I want no kid rushed either and like most fans,I can stomach a bottom-feeder more easily watching a kid like Riechel play and improve. I have no interest in watching a botton-feeder laden with veterans stumblin' around for two more year and I doubt I'm alone. Maybe take JVR off their hands too,he would make fewer mistakes than one of those pesky kids. If Toews does not come back, the team will need a centre next year. If it is not Hayes, it will be someone else. I would rather the GM take on Hayes with a large incentive than outbid teams for someone like Domi. I love the idea, I believe thats the right path. But I just don’t see Philly giving up much at this point to rid themselves of a contract. Maybe a 2nd rounder this year? But not much else. Now, I’m not saying that’s all a trade like that is worth. I’m just saying that’s all Philly will give up. I feel the Canucks will give up a first in 2024 and 2025 to get rid of OEL. I’d do that. I just think they wanna keep this years and build up with it. Then use the cap space to get shit done. Too bad, they had 2 first rounders this year. But one went to Detroit. Anyways. I feel they want to move out OEL cuz they brought in Hronek. Myers is still serviceable. So I think they keep him for now. I think the Nucks showed with the Hronek deal, they’re willing to part with picks to better the team!!! |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 8, 2023 8:10:37 GMT -6
He'd fit the desired demographic too. Why not target other team's early 20 year old prospects who's careers might have plateaued,we've seen many players break-through in their mid 20's recently that few saw coming. The 'alure' of the veteran Hayes would be a strong one though. I understand patience,I want no kid rushed either and like most fans,I can stomach a bottom-feeder more easily watching a kid like Riechel play and improve. I have no interest in watching a botton-feeder laden with veterans stumblin' around for two more year and I doubt I'm alone. Maybe take JVR off their hands too,he would make fewer mistakes than one of those pesky kids. If Toews does not come back, the team will need a centre next year. If it is not Hayes, it will be someone else. I would rather the GM take on Hayes with a large incentive than outbid teams for someone like Domi. I know the team will need warm bodies,vets with picks attached and to reach the cap floor but for how much longer mvr? Maybe the faithful tolerate another veteran laden,bottom-feeder again next year but they'll have to see at least a glimmer of the future from there-on-out to stay engaged IMO. I don't mind the player and his salary will only result in a good return and the team reaching the necessary floor but the 30yro's numbers have declined and he's been dinged-up too the last few years. I guess Hayes vs Domi depends on the return for eating 21.5M. I can't see Domi wanting more than 4M,he seems to want to return,he's 3 years younger,a very hard worker and a fan favorite. You might actually need both to reach the floor w/o JT and why would anyone think the Hawks aren't #1 on Hayes 12 team M-NTC? |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 8, 2023 8:49:41 GMT -6
Maybe with mid and later-round picks but don't we see highly touted,early first round picks make their mark in the league quickly these days? The system shows six forwards and six D-men 21 and over(not counting journeymen 25 or over)how much further into their careers before we know how good and how do those six D-men get a shot,or experience,or assessment with all the vets returning? How many of those 21yo's are KD's guys? My point was we won't know how good KD's guys will be for awhile, not Bowman's guys he inherited. The other factor on why it will take awhile is there are guys who take the league by storm and then peter out. Think Sergei Samsonov. For all we know a guy like Korch comes in, sets the league on fire, then has a sophomore slump he never recovers from. I hope not, but it is possible. To your question.......why on earth should that matter? I'm no fan of the last GM but the four kids(two 1st/two 2nd round) taken in 20&21 stand on their own and should have every chance of kids taken afterward. If there is an organizational bias against these kids(as you suggested) for that reason alone........that's immature and asinine IMO. The team currently has six D-men between 21-24,I expect nothing from Roos and Galvas,but the other four have paid dues in the AHL and saw some HNL games too(all 6 have actually)Vlasic,Regula and Phillips all have NHL size as well. Mitchell's in witness protection,more than likely elsewhere or out of the league next year,but the other three desperately need NHL experience and assessment......soon. Hockey's a young man's game now more than ever,highly rated,1st round picks rarely take more than two years to make it,some three,some one or none. If Korch comes in,sets the league on fire,then has a sophomore slump,why wouldn't he recover from it like all the other great,young players who went through it? He doesn't sound like a fragile kid. The Hawks' current situation does give them the luxury of not having to rush teenagers or any kid for that matter but play em when they're ready. There's still no substitute for NHL experience and coddling/sheltering kids when they are ready can frustrate the hell out of a kid who see lesser players getting his opportunity. |
|
|
|
Post by jacksalmon on Mar 8, 2023 9:03:33 GMT -6
How many of those 21yo's are KD's guys? My point was we won't know how good KD's guys will be for awhile, not Bowman's guys he inherited. The other factor on why it will take awhile is there are guys who take the league by storm and then peter out. Think Sergei Samsonov. For all we know a guy like Korch comes in, sets the league on fire, then has a sophomore slump he never recovers from. I hope not, but it is possible. To your question.......why on earth should that matter? I'm no fan of the last GM but the four kids(two 1st/two 2nd round) taken in 20&21 stand on their own and should have every chance of kids taken afterward. If there is an organizational bias against these kids(as you suggested) for that reason alone........that's immature and asinine IMO. The team currently has six D-men between 21-24,I expect nothing from Roos and Galvas,but the other four have paid dues in the AHL and saw some HNL games too(all 6 have actually)Vlasic,Regula and Phillips all have NHL size as well. Mitchell's in witness protection,more than likely elsewhere or out of the league next year,but the other three desperately need NHL experience and assessment......soon. Hockey's a young man's game now more than ever,highly rated,1st round picks rarely take more than two years to make it,some three,some one or none. If Korch comes in,sets the league on fire,then has a sophomore slump,why wouldn't he recover from it like all the other great,young players who went through it? He doesn't sound like a fragile kid. The Hawks' current situation does give them the luxury of not having to rush teenagers or any kid for that matter but play em when they're ready. There's still no substitute for NHL experience and coddling/sheltering kids when they are ready can frustrate the hell out of a kid who see lesser players getting his opportunity. I agree with what you said in one of your earlier posts when you said that if the youngster is worth anything, he should be making his mark by age 21-22; or he will simply be a career-long project. So, draft these guys, give them a year, or two, of AHL experience and get them up to the show to take their lumps; or show that they are lump givers, or goal scorers. Don't wait too long to give them AHL experience before getting them up to the show. You, MVR and Big T should make a joint offer to KD to hire on for low pay as assistant GMs. You each come up with good ideas that are well researched and thought out. |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Mar 8, 2023 9:05:17 GMT -6
If Toews does not come back, the team will need a centre next year. If it is not Hayes, it will be someone else. I would rather the GM take on Hayes with a large incentive than outbid teams for someone like Domi. I know the team will need warm bodies,vets with picks attached and to reach the cap floor but for how much longer mvr? Maybe the faithful tolerate another veteran laden,bottom-feeder again next year but they'll have to see at least a glimmer of the future from there-on-out to stay engaged IMO. I don't mind the player and his salary will only result in a good return and the team reaching the necessary floor but the 30yro's numbers have declined and he's been dinged-up too the last few years. I guess Hayes vs Domi depends on the return for eating 21.5M. I can't see Domi wanting more than 4M,he seems to want to return,he's 3 years younger,a very hard worker and a fan favorite. You might actually need both to reach the floor w/o JT and why would anyone think the Hawks aren't #1 on Hayes 12 team M-NTC? Honestly it should be "As long as it takes," but we know that won't fly with the fans or management. We do have to balance becoming a winner again quick with the fact that the amount of damage done to the team since the last cup has to be repaired, and it will be a lengthy process which, if ill-planned and ill-advised shortcuts are tried, will set the team way back or mire it in mediocrity. |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Mar 8, 2023 9:13:37 GMT -6
To your question.......why on earth should that matter? I'm no fan of the last GM but the four kids(two 1st/two 2nd round) taken in 20&21 stand on their own and should have every chance of kids taken afterward. If there is an organizational bias against these kids(as you suggested) for that reason alone........that's immature and asinine IMO. The team currently has six D-men between 21-24,I expect nothing from Roos and Galvas,but the other four have paid dues in the AHL and saw some HNL games too(all 6 have actually)Vlasic,Regula and Phillips all have NHL size as well. Mitchell's in witness protection,more than likely elsewhere or out of the league next year,but the other three desperately need NHL experience and assessment......soon. Hockey's a young man's game now more than ever,highly rated,1st round picks rarely take more than two years to make it,some three,some one or none. If Korch comes in,sets the league on fire,then has a sophomore slump,why wouldn't he recover from it like all the other great,young players who went through it? He doesn't sound like a fragile kid. The Hawks' current situation does give them the luxury of not having to rush teenagers or any kid for that matter but play em when they're ready. There's still no substitute for NHL experience and coddling/sheltering kids when they are ready can frustrate the hell out of a kid who see lesser players getting his opportunity. I agree with what you said in one of your earlier posts when you said that if the youngster is worth anything, he should be making his mark by age 21-22; or he will simply be a career-long project. So, draft these guys, give them a year, or two, of AHL experience and get them up to the show to take their lumps; or show that they are lump givers, or goal scorers. Don't wait too long to give them AHL experience before getting them up to the show. You, MVR and Big T should make a joint offer to KD to hire on for low pay as assistant GMs. You each come up with good ideas that are well researched and thought out. Playing Devils' advocate: Sharp didn't hit his stride until he turned 25. However, to you and hsbob 's points, at some point we have to shit or get off the pot. We can't expect everyone to come in like Kane did, but we also gotta get guys in. That requires some roster flexibility. Yes, until we start to get guys in who will be our blue chips we will have to fill the lineup with vets making enough to get us to the cap floor and can be easily movable, but in the same vein there should be enough slots where we can get some of the kids out there to show their stuff. We can't chock everything full of vets, and there probably should be a cheap 13th FWD/7th D-man/Backup or 3rd string goalie who can come in if a kid is just not working out. I;m hoping KD knows this going into next year and beyond. We will need to start seeing what some of these kids can do and where they stand--be it next core or trade fodder. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 8, 2023 9:20:35 GMT -6
If Toews does not come back, the team will need a centre next year. If it is not Hayes, it will be someone else. I would rather the GM take on Hayes with a large incentive than outbid teams for someone like Domi. I love the idea, I believe thats the right path. But I just don’t see Philly giving up much at this point to rid themselves of a contract. Maybe a 2nd rounder this year? But not much else. Now, I’m not saying that’s all a trade like that is worth. I’m just saying that’s all Philly will give up. I feel the Canucks will give up a first in 2024 and 2025 to get rid of OEL. I’d do that. I just think they wanna keep this years and build up with it. Then use the cap space to get shit done. Too bad, they had 2 first rounders this year. But one went to Detroit. Anyways. I feel they want to move out OEL cuz they brought in Hronek. Myers is still serviceable. So I think they keep him for now. I think the Nucks showed with the Hronek deal, they’re willing to part with picks to better the team!!! Didn't you say you'd only offer Toews a 1M one year deal if he wanted to return well BEFORE he got sick and was playing well but Hayse is worth 7M+ for three years with only a 2nd coming back? The 30yro is on the decline,wins 46% of his draws and gets no better from here,a healthy Toews might still be the better player and certainly the better draw. I agree,the idea of ANOTHER veteran D-man is a STRONG alure for the demanding HC and OEL is that,he turns 32 this summer and is on IR at the moment. S Jones,Murphy,Zaitsev,OEL,C Jones(by birthright I guess)and a possible Tinordi return will give how many young D-men the needed experience next year? Or do those kids just make too many mistakes? At what point does the FO start acquiring 20yro prospects to speed things up a bit and when do they use that cap-space to get things done. The team's had all of it's picks and more the last three years and a WHEEL BARREL full the next three,this HAS to bare fruit and soon. I understand a few Zaitsev-like deals with good picks attached,but turn the team into the Arizona Coyotes and they'll draw like the Arizona Coyotes. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 8, 2023 9:25:00 GMT -6
To your question.......why on earth should that matter? I'm no fan of the last GM but the four kids(two 1st/two 2nd round) taken in 20&21 stand on their own and should have every chance of kids taken afterward. If there is an organizational bias against these kids(as you suggested) for that reason alone........that's immature and asinine IMO. The team currently has six D-men between 21-24,I expect nothing from Roos and Galvas,but the other four have paid dues in the AHL and saw some HNL games too(all 6 have actually)Vlasic,Regula and Phillips all have NHL size as well. Mitchell's in witness protection,more than likely elsewhere or out of the league next year,but the other three desperately need NHL experience and assessment......soon. Hockey's a young man's game now more than ever,highly rated,1st round picks rarely take more than two years to make it,some three,some one or none. If Korch comes in,sets the league on fire,then has a sophomore slump,why wouldn't he recover from it like all the other great,young players who went through it? He doesn't sound like a fragile kid. The Hawks' current situation does give them the luxury of not having to rush teenagers or any kid for that matter but play em when they're ready. There's still no substitute for NHL experience and coddling/sheltering kids when they are ready can frustrate the hell out of a kid who see lesser players getting his opportunity. I agree with what you said in one of your earlier posts when you said that if the youngster is worth anything, he should be making his mark by age 21-22; or he will simply be a career-long project. So, draft these guys, give them a year, or two, of AHL experience and get them up to the show to take their lumps; or show that they are lump givers, or goal scorers. Don't wait too long to give them AHL experience before getting them up to the show. You, MVR and Big T should make a joint offer to KD to hire on for low pay as assistant GMs. You each come up with good ideas that are well researched and thought out. We just offer our opinions and I'm sure KD has as good or better advice in-house. |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Mar 8, 2023 9:27:40 GMT -6
How many of those 21yo's are KD's guys? My point was we won't know how good KD's guys will be for awhile, not Bowman's guys he inherited. The other factor on why it will take awhile is there are guys who take the league by storm and then peter out. Think Sergei Samsonov. For all we know a guy like Korch comes in, sets the league on fire, then has a sophomore slump he never recovers from. I hope not, but it is possible. To your question.......why on earth should that matter? I'm no fan of the last GM but the four kids(two 1st/two 2nd round) taken in 20&21 stand on their own and should have every chance of kids taken afterward. If there is an organizational bias against these kids(as you suggested) for that reason alone........that's immature and asinine IMO. The team currently has six D-men between 21-24,I expect nothing from Roos and Galvas,but the other four have paid dues in the AHL and saw some HNL games too(all 6 have actually)Vlasic,Regula and Phillips all have NHL size as well. Mitchell's in witness protection,more than likely elsewhere or out of the league next year,but the other three desperately need NHL experience and assessment......soon. Hockey's a young man's game now more than ever,highly rated,1st round picks rarely take more than two years to make it,some three,some one or none. If Korch comes in,sets the league on fire,then has a sophomore slump,why wouldn't he recover from it like all the other great,young players who went through it? He doesn't sound like a fragile kid. The Hawks' current situation does give them the luxury of not having to rush teenagers or any kid for that matter but play em when they're ready. There's still no substitute for NHL experience and coddling/sheltering kids when they are ready can frustrate the hell out of a kid who see lesser players getting his opportunity. Maybe I mistook your initial point: The reason I think KD's picks matter is because it reflects on how good he and his scouting staff are at finding youth talent, and Bowman's picks shouldn't reflect on KD any more than Tallon's picks should reflect on Bowman's ability to scout youth talent...and so on and so forth. I think I partially addressed the rest previously: This year is an übertank. No reason to involve the kids in that. Come next season I hope that shifts; were we do have some short-term high-priced vest getting us to the floor, but the rest is putting some of the kids in--guys like Vlassic, Phillips, etc. so see what they are and how they fit in. We do have to make a decision on them preferably sooner rather than later, but I get why they are kept off the roster this year. Either they're useful moving on or they should be swapped out for someone who is. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 8, 2023 10:11:50 GMT -6
My understanding is that Galvas, Regula and Mitchell will need to clear waivers next year if demoted. Everyone else has at least one more year eligibility in the AHL. I believe Galvas will not be re-signed. One or both of Regula/Mitchell will make the team as will Reichel and perhaps Philips/Vlasic. Nobody else in Rockford or elsewhere in the system is ready. The rest of the spots will go to roster fill on short term deals such as Bjork.
I prefer Hayes to the UFA Domi for three reasons.
1) I like the potential to add assets as part of any deal to add to the roster. I am not giving away cap space, but I do think it should be used. The Zaitsov trade is the blueprint here. If the Flyers are serious about reducing their cap, they will have to pay. If not, perhaps there is another team thinking that same way.
2) Domi is a UFA. He has positioned himself to get a longer term deal at max dollars. There is no chance he signs again for one year at $3 M. Now he is likely looking for $5-6 M/five years.
3) Hayes is a better player. Domi benefited enormously by playing with Kane all year. Hayes would produce more offence on his own, and he is more physical and a better defender. I can live with his contract for 3 years (with an incentive)
|
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Mar 8, 2023 10:19:08 GMT -6
I love the idea, I believe thats the right path. But I just don’t see Philly giving up much at this point to rid themselves of a contract. Maybe a 2nd rounder this year? But not much else. Now, I’m not saying that’s all a trade like that is worth. I’m just saying that’s all Philly will give up. I feel the Canucks will give up a first in 2024 and 2025 to get rid of OEL. I’d do that. I just think they wanna keep this years and build up with it. Then use the cap space to get shit done. Too bad, they had 2 first rounders this year. But one went to Detroit. Anyways. I feel they want to move out OEL cuz they brought in Hronek. Myers is still serviceable. So I think they keep him for now. I think the Nucks showed with the Hronek deal, they’re willing to part with picks to better the team!!! Didn't you say you'd only offer Toews a 1M one year deal if he wanted to return well BEFORE he got sick and was playing well but Hayse is worth 7M+ for three years with only a 2nd coming back? The 30yro is on the decline,wins 46% of his draws and gets no better from here,a healthy Toews might still be the better player and certainly the better draw. I agree,the idea of ANOTHER veteran D-man is a STRONG alure for the demanding HC and OEL is that,he turns 32 this summer and is on IR at the moment. S Jones,Murphy,Zaitsev,OEL,C Jones(by birthright I guess)and a possible Tinordi return will give how many young D-men the needed experience next year? Or do those kids just make too many mistakes? At what point does the FO start acquiring 20yro prospects to speed things up a bit and when do they use that cap-space to get things done. The team's had all of it's picks and more the last three years and a WHEEL BARREL full the next three,this HAS to bare fruit and soon. I understand a few Zaitsev-like deals with good picks attached,but turn the team into the Arizona Coyotes and they'll draw like the Arizona Coyotes. No, that wasn’t me. I did say after his latest bout that he may retire. And that most teams of not all wouldn’t offer a multi year deal. And I’m not sure if he’s want to take 1 million per. Especially to move. And I also said that a trade for Hayes may only fetch a 2nd. Not that it’s only worth that. But that’s all Philly would be willing to give up. If they were a contender. They may attach more to that. But it goes to show how bad the last guy got ripped off!!! |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 8, 2023 10:21:08 GMT -6
If Toews does not come back, the team will need a centre next year. If it is not Hayes, it will be someone else. I would rather the GM take on Hayes with a large incentive than outbid teams for someone like Domi. I know the team will need warm bodies,vets with picks attached and to reach the cap floor but for how much longer mvr? Maybe the faithful tolerate another veteran laden,bottom-feeder again next year but they'll have to see at least a glimmer of the future from there-on-out to stay engaged IMO. I don't mind the player and his salary will only result in a good return and the team reaching the necessary floor but the 30yro's numbers have declined and he's been dinged-up too the last few years. I guess Hayes vs Domi depends on the return for eating 21.5M. I can't see Domi wanting more than 4M,he seems to want to return,he's 3 years younger,a very hard worker and a fan favorite. You might actually need both to reach the floor w/o JT and why would anyone think the Hawks aren't #1 on Hayes 12 team M-NTC? To answer your question. My feeling is that we need one more full year of a complete tank job. Then we start adding pieces we expect will be here through the entire rebuild. Only Reichel (because he is ready) and one or two of the AHL defenders (because they are no longer waiver exempt) really need to be here next year. The others can be brought up slowly for cups of coffee when they are needed or show they are fully ready. Edit: The goalie Soderblom also might have to clear waivers. If so, I would save a spot for him on the main roster. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 8, 2023 10:25:08 GMT -6
Regarding Toews. As I wrote some time ago, I am good with re-signing him to a one or two year deal at $3 M/year. My guess is that that's now about his market value.
For Kane, I am still thinking no more than two years at $5 M/year. Should he require more, I am sure he will find it.
|
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Mar 8, 2023 10:49:55 GMT -6
Regarding Toews. As I wrote some time ago, I am good with re-signing him to a one or two year deal at $3 M/year. My guess is that that's now about his market value. For Kane, I am still thinking no more than two years at $5 M/year. Should he require more, I am sure he will find it. Even if they paid more. It doesn’t hurt at all. Helps the team get to the cap floor. I’m a rebuilding situation, I have no problem overpaying a player in the short term. Hell, I’d even give Toews 10 million to say thanks for the memories if it gets me to the cap floor. I have no interest in paying too many guys 3 million per for multi years to try and rid myself of them for not much. Toews is an icon here and giving him a 1 year 10 million deal isn’t the worst. Especially if the Hawks are terribly short of the salary cap!!! |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 8, 2023 10:53:32 GMT -6
To your question.......why on earth should that matter? I'm no fan of the last GM but the four kids(two 1st/two 2nd round) taken in 20&21 stand on their own and should have every chance of kids taken afterward. If there is an organizational bias against these kids(as you suggested) for that reason alone........that's immature and asinine IMO. The team currently has six D-men between 21-24,I expect nothing from Roos and Galvas,but the other four have paid dues in the AHL and saw some HNL games too(all 6 have actually)Vlasic,Regula and Phillips all have NHL size as well. Mitchell's in witness protection,more than likely elsewhere or out of the league next year,but the other three desperately need NHL experience and assessment......soon. Hockey's a young man's game now more than ever,highly rated,1st round picks rarely take more than two years to make it,some three,some one or none. If Korch comes in,sets the league on fire,then has a sophomore slump,why wouldn't he recover from it like all the other great,young players who went through it? He doesn't sound like a fragile kid. The Hawks' current situation does give them the luxury of not having to rush teenagers or any kid for that matter but play em when they're ready. There's still no substitute for NHL experience and coddling/sheltering kids when they are ready can frustrate the hell out of a kid who see lesser players getting his opportunity. Maybe I mistook your initial point: The reason I think KD's picks matter is because it reflects on how good he and his scouting staff are at finding youth talent, and Bowman's picks shouldn't reflect on KD any more than Tallon's picks should reflect on Bowman's ability to scout youth talent...and so on and so forth. I think I partially addressed the rest previously: This year is an übertank. No reason to involve the kids in that. Come next season I hope that shifts; were we do have some short-term high-priced vest getting us to the floor, but the rest is putting some of the kids in--guys like Vlassic, Phillips, etc. so see what they are and how they fit in. We do have to make a decision on them preferably sooner rather than later, but I get why they are kept off the roster this year. Either they're useful moving on or they should be swapped out for someone who is. Who drafted the two 1st's and the two 2nd's in 20&21 does reflect on the last regime but IMO,how they're utilized and developed from here-on-out reflects on the new regime. We have seen many players from the last regime purged and some for nothing and the rest have seen little opportunity with many younger kids snapping at their heels or soon to be. Which one's the next Forsling when his first opportunity comes elsewhere? Forsling's listed @6' 186lbs and showed no more than the 5'11' 193LB Ian Mitchell has at the same age,the Canes didn't even give him a start the year they had him and now he's a solid minute muncher for Fla........he just needed playing time. I can understand keeping the kids off the roster this year and with a few excptions,again next year but the Avs were far and away the worst team in the league in '17' WITH MacKinnon,Landeskog and Rantanen all in the lineup all year,to the tune of a combined -64. These great,young players weren't too scarred to make the PO's the following season and get better every year since,winning the cup five years later. They just didn't like the taste of losing and made sure it wouldn't happen again....and it hasn't. Overcoming adversity is a wonderful lesson for a good,young player. |
|
|
|
Post by jacksalmon on Mar 8, 2023 12:53:44 GMT -6
I agree with what you said in one of your earlier posts when you said that if the youngster is worth anything, he should be making his mark by age 21-22; or he will simply be a career-long project. So, draft these guys, give them a year, or two, of AHL experience and get them up to the show to take their lumps; or show that they are lump givers, or goal scorers. Don't wait too long to give them AHL experience before getting them up to the show. You, MVR and Big T should make a joint offer to KD to hire on for low pay as assistant GMs. You each come up with good ideas that are well researched and thought out. We just offer our opinions and I'm sure KD has as good or better advice in-house. Don't be so damn humble. Did Bowman have the same high quality in house advice; or did he just blow it off because he thought he was smarter than everyone else? Remember how you kept pointing out what a waste of $20 million it was to get the guys he got back a few summers ago. I forget the names and the specifics, but you were right that the $20 million could have been better spent. |
|
|
|
Post by jacksalmon on Mar 8, 2023 12:55:20 GMT -6
Regarding Toews. As I wrote some time ago, I am good with re-signing him to a one or two year deal at $3 M/year. My guess is that that's now about his market value. For Kane, I am still thinking no more than two years at $5 M/year. Should he require more, I am sure he will find it. Even if they paid more. It doesn’t hurt at all. Helps the team get to the cap floor. I’m a rebuilding situation, I have no problem overpaying a player in the short term. Hell, I’d even give Toews 10 million to say thanks for the memories if it gets me to the cap floor. I have no interest in paying too many guys 3 million per for multi years to try and rid myself of them for not much. Toews is an icon here and giving him a 1 year 10 million deal isn’t the worst. Especially if the Hawks are terribly short of the salary cap!!! Giving him $10 million to likely sit out a good portion of the season is not a good idea, no matter what an icon he is. |
|
|
|
Post by T-man2010 on Mar 8, 2023 13:22:35 GMT -6
Even if they paid more. It doesn’t hurt at all. Helps the team get to the cap floor. I’m a rebuilding situation, I have no problem overpaying a player in the short term. Hell, I’d even give Toews 10 million to say thanks for the memories if it gets me to the cap floor. I have no interest in paying too many guys 3 million per for multi years to try and rid myself of them for not much. Toews is an icon here and giving him a 1 year 10 million deal isn’t the worst. Especially if the Hawks are terribly short of the salary cap!!! Giving him $10 million to likely sit out a good portion of the season is not a good idea, no matter what an icon he is. True, the money is better used to keep in Rockys pocket. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 8, 2023 14:04:15 GMT -6
We just offer our opinions and I'm sure KD has as good or better advice in-house. Don't be so damn humble. Did Bowman have the same high quality in house advice; or did he just blow it off because he thought he was smarter than everyone else? Remember how you kept pointing out what a waste of $20 million it was to get the guys he got back a few summers ago. I forget the names and the specifics, but you were right that the $20 million could have been better spent. I have always pointed to alternatives when I criticized moves in the past but what we do here will never be as difficult as the real world of the league. The summer of '19'.....you SOB!.....LOL! Kane and Toews coming off career years,DeBrincat and Strome coming off young break-through seasons,Keith coming off 40pts and a healthy Crawford for the first time in almost two years. Should 20M plus,two 2nd round picks and Joker and Forsling(both reliable starters now)traded away have helped that team? It didn't. Maatta was traded with $$$ retained the very next summer,we suffered with the untradable deHAAN-job,Shaw retired and Zach Smith and NOlandr absolutely sucked. How TF do you NOT find at least two good players spending 20M+,two 2nd's and two D prospects? |
|
|
|
Post by LordKOTL on Mar 8, 2023 14:09:20 GMT -6
Maybe I mistook your initial point: The reason I think KD's picks matter is because it reflects on how good he and his scouting staff are at finding youth talent, and Bowman's picks shouldn't reflect on KD any more than Tallon's picks should reflect on Bowman's ability to scout youth talent...and so on and so forth. I think I partially addressed the rest previously: This year is an übertank. No reason to involve the kids in that. Come next season I hope that shifts; were we do have some short-term high-priced vest getting us to the floor, but the rest is putting some of the kids in--guys like Vlassic, Phillips, etc. so see what they are and how they fit in. We do have to make a decision on them preferably sooner rather than later, but I get why they are kept off the roster this year. Either they're useful moving on or they should be swapped out for someone who is. Who drafted the two 1st's and the two 2nd's in 20&21 does reflect on the last regime but IMO,how they're utilized and developed from here-on-out reflects on the new regime. We have seen many players from the last regime purged and some for nothing and the rest have seen little opportunity with many younger kids snapping at their heels or soon to be. Which one's the next Forsling when his first opportunity comes elsewhere? Forsling's listed @6' 186lbs and showed no more than the 5'11' 193LB Ian Mitchell has at the same age,the Canes didn't even give him a start the year they had him and now he's a solid minute muncher for Fla........he just needed playing time. I can understand keeping the kids off the roster this year and with a few excptions,again next year but the Avs were far and away the worst team in the league in '17' WITH MacKinnon,Landeskog and Rantanen all in the lineup all year,to the tune of a combined -64. These great,young players weren't too scarred to make the PO's the following season and get better every year since,winning the cup five years later. They just didn't like the taste of losing and made sure it wouldn't happen again....and it hasn't. Overcoming adversity is a wonderful lesson for a good,young player. I don't disagree with your points. There is an argument for developing and utilizing what you inherited, but KD's work in acquiring prospects has to be looked through the lens of his body of work, and not someone's else's. Ergo, some of the comments about how the rebuild has gone nowhere over the past 5 years has to take into account that KD only drafted in one of those. The rest were Bowman guys and KD might have very well taken someone different. That doesn't let KD off the hook in how he handles Bowman's draft pics, but in my opinion we can't look at one of Bowman's picks and an equivalent one of KD's picks through the exact same lens. Not that I think you, specifically, are, but there are a lot of people out there who are taking the assumption that the rebuild has been going on for ~5 years and that there's no hard difference between the Bowman regime in that time period and KD's regime. There should be. Just like there is a difference between the Smith/Tallon eras. Overcoming adversity is a solid point, but I think KD might have not only thought that Playing the kids in an expected tank year might not be the best, and I also think he might have been saving the kids to the point where they won't have to rely on a lot of old faces. Just a hunch, mind you; I could be wrong. |
|
