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Post by hsbob on Nov 12, 2021 8:32:43 GMT -6
This is so FUCKING difficult when I have to come back at posters I respect like you and squish but I haven't called anyone a single fucking name for supporting the logo and if you can show me prof of doing so....I'll quit right now! So "fuck me' because I'm some kind of "woke" "karen" because I think the time has come for a change? Where the fuck should I go with that OTH....seriously? I can get REAL shitty too but thankfully I have somewhere else to let loose on non-hockey issues so I'll keep my powder dry for now but I do expect the same respect I show others and I'll abide insults no longer but I will for now in an attempt to stay away from the issues we said we would in another thread. I was just giving my 2 cents on the opinions of the natives that I've been around and wasn't calling you a Karen, so I apologize that it seemed that way. I meant in general it seems like the people who are demanding changes are a small group. Most of the things they want changed it doesn't pertain to them and they're just trying to act woke. Like being offended by the Hawks name and logo if you aren't a native or visible minority. I know you aren't offended by the name and logo but you're ok if the logo is changed, I'd be ok if it was changed to an actual black hawk so the name stays. That's just a bird of prey, I hope no one would be offended but you never know 🤷‍♂️ Why bother apologizing just to call me 'woke' again....what should I call you in response? I'm not a Native American or a minority who doesn't care for the logo so that defines me as woke? That's exactly what you said. 'Woke' is an insulting,right wing meme for anyone with a shred of empathy for any minority and I wish you'd stop it! I am offended by it but I said I can also live with it just because I don't give a fuck about much any more.....cept being called names! |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 12, 2021 9:30:09 GMT -6
open google.com -. type "sauk and chicago blackhawks" you'll see links such as these in the page; www.tricksterculturalcenter.org/blackhawks-partnership - Chicago Blackhawks Partnership Trickster Cultural Center www.nhl.com/blackhawks/team/native-american-initiatives - Native American Initiatives | Chicago Blackhawks - NHL www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/chicago-blackhawks-will-keep-name-pledge-to-expand-awareness-of-black-hawks-legacy/ - Chicago Blackhawks will keep name, pledge to... thats just some articles, each one talks about cooperation and partnership with both the native americans and the blackhawks. Not satisfied yet? go to this site www.sacandfoxnation-nsn.gov/ - the official Sac and Fox nation website. search for blackhawks - they had a powerpoint presentation announcing their partnership with the Chicago Blackhawks anything else you want? who are you speaking for? The Chicago American Indian Center? do they speak for the Sauks? what is their end game? what is your end game? If Sauks have no problem with it, why do you ? As for your quora link - thats just some random "independent researcher" four paragraph opinion with no data or anything backing him up. he even said "They (blackhawks) have, however, created outreach programs with the intent of educating the public about Native American culture, history, and issues." - are those not cooperation with the natives? These links not good enough? how about physical evidence. explain why there are indians in pre-game ceremonies, if they hate the blackhawks so much, why are they there? how about the native indians passing out pamphlets in the United Center when there is a Blackhawks game? Are they not there to support their partnership with the Hawks? I respect your opinion about the logo being a symbol atrocities - however morbid that may be. but dont you think thats a bit of a stretch? no team owner (hell, no one) thinks "i want a symbol that forever and everyday remind people that we nearly wiped an entire tribe of native people" So you'd prefer I leave out the "morbid" parts? The factual account of what actually happened is a stretch"? Or just uncomfortable? www.counterpunch.org/2020/07/14/sorry-the-chicago-blackhawks-need-to-change-their-name-and-logo/#gsc.tab=0What happened to the indigenous peoples of North America was "MORBID",a population of what was an estimated 60-100 million is now less than 6 million and large numbers of them live in abstract poverty and alcohol and drug addiction due to having their heritage stolen in 'Indian schools'(a fine tradition both here and in Canada) along with their land. Many on the Navajo reservation don't even have running water but who cares......we got dancers! |
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Post by squishy24 on Nov 12, 2021 10:59:04 GMT -6
open google.com -. type "sauk and chicago blackhawks" you'll see links such as these in the page; www.tricksterculturalcenter.org/blackhawks-partnership - Chicago Blackhawks Partnership Trickster Cultural Center www.nhl.com/blackhawks/team/native-american-initiatives - Native American Initiatives | Chicago Blackhawks - NHL www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/chicago-blackhawks-will-keep-name-pledge-to-expand-awareness-of-black-hawks-legacy/ - Chicago Blackhawks will keep name, pledge to... thats just some articles, each one talks about cooperation and partnership with both the native americans and the blackhawks. Not satisfied yet? go to this site www.sacandfoxnation-nsn.gov/ - the official Sac and Fox nation website. search for blackhawks - they had a powerpoint presentation announcing their partnership with the Chicago Blackhawks anything else you want? who are you speaking for? The Chicago American Indian Center? do they speak for the Sauks? what is their end game? what is your end game? If Sauks have no problem with it, why do you ? As for your quora link - thats just some random "independent researcher" four paragraph opinion with no data or anything backing him up. he even said "They (blackhawks) have, however, created outreach programs with the intent of educating the public about Native American culture, history, and issues." - are those not cooperation with the natives? These links not good enough? how about physical evidence. explain why there are indians in pre-game ceremonies, if they hate the blackhawks so much, why are they there? how about the native indians passing out pamphlets in the United Center when there is a Blackhawks game? Are they not there to support their partnership with the Hawks? I respect your opinion about the logo being a symbol atrocities - however morbid that may be. but dont you think thats a bit of a stretch? no team owner (hell, no one) thinks "i want a symbol that forever and everyday remind people that we nearly wiped an entire tribe of native people" So you'd prefer I leave out the "morbid" parts? The factual account of what actually happened is a stretch"? Or just uncomfortable? www.counterpunch.org/2020/07/14/sorry-the-chicago-blackhawks-need-to-change-their-name-and-logo/#gsc.tab=0What happened to the indigenous peoples of North America was "MORBID",a population of what was an estimated 60-100 million is now less than 6 million and large numbers of them live in abstract poverty and alcohol and drug addiction due to having their heritage stolen in 'Indian schools'(a fine tradition both here and in Canada) along with their land. Many on the Navajo reservation don't even have running water but who cares......we got dancers! i get it, it is morbid, thats why i used that word. im not denying those didnt happen. Im just saying that when i look into that indianhead blackhawks logo, my mind doesnt interpret it as a sign or as a reminder of that morbid history. As i said, if yours does, i respect that opinion. that is your own interpretation of things, But!......and this is my point -> I doubt that the founders of the hockey team have that in mind when they chose the logo, i dont think that was the narrative they meant to symbolize |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Nov 12, 2021 12:03:00 GMT -6
I was just giving my 2 cents on the opinions of the natives that I've been around and wasn't calling you a Karen, so I apologize that it seemed that way. I meant in general it seems like the people who are demanding changes are a small group. Most of the things they want changed it doesn't pertain to them and they're just trying to act woke. Like being offended by the Hawks name and logo if you aren't a native or visible minority. I know you aren't offended by the name and logo but you're ok if the logo is changed, I'd be ok if it was changed to an actual black hawk so the name stays. That's just a bird of prey, I hope no one would be offended but you never know 🤷‍♂️ Why bother apologizing just to call me 'woke' again....what should I call you in response? I'm not a Native American or a minority who doesn't care for the logo so that defines me as woke? That's exactly what you said. 'Woke' is an insulting,right wing meme for anyone with a shred of empathy for any minority and I wish you'd stop it! I am offended by it but I said I can also live with it just because I don't give a fuck about much any more.....cept being called names! Are you demanding a change to the name and logo? If not, I'm not referring to you. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Nov 12, 2021 12:06:55 GMT -6
We also have to look at other points of view. Would people of colour enjoy their face or a rendition of their face on a sports jersey? Would white people accept something similar? A white persons face imprinted on a sports jersey or logo worn dominantly by people of colour? For myself only. It would not bother me one bit if it was used to say that person was a great person and it could raise awareness. Now, if a team in the future used Graham James or Brad Alldick. I’d be angry and not want that to see the light of day. Now, others may feel different. That’s fine. But working together should be first priority. It seems that people are becoming offended by someone who’s offended!!!  No outcry yet that it is offensive to white/bronzed people, or anti-military. To be 100% fair though, as someone from italian-american descent, if they did what George Carlin suggested in one of his books and had a team called, "The Murdering Italians" (as a counterpoint to the Fighting Irish), I would back it 100%. I'm an asshole like that, though. I do have to comment on something though: Fleury's new mask which was designed by Ojibwe artist Patrick Hunter? The only social media outcry I've seen about it being "racist" are from white people. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 12, 2021 12:26:23 GMT -6
Why bother apologizing just to call me 'woke' again....what should I call you in response? I'm not a Native American or a minority who doesn't care for the logo so that defines me as woke? That's exactly what you said. 'Woke' is an insulting,right wing meme for anyone with a shred of empathy for any minority and I wish you'd stop it! I am offended by it but I said I can also live with it just because I don't give a fuck about much any more.....cept being called names! Are you demanding a change to the name and logo? If not, I'm not referring to you. Like I said,I demand nothing because I just don't give a fuck about much any more but if I did..........would that give you the right to call me this or that? |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 12, 2021 12:32:24 GMT -6
We also have to look at other points of view. Would people of colour enjoy their face or a rendition of their face on a sports jersey? Would white people accept something similar? A white persons face imprinted on a sports jersey or logo worn dominantly by people of colour? For myself only. It would not bother me one bit if it was used to say that person was a great person and it could raise awareness. Now, if a team in the future used Graham James or Brad Alldick. I’d be angry and not want that to see the light of day. Now, others may feel different. That’s fine. But working together should be first priority. It seems that people are becoming offended by someone who’s offended!!! No outcry yet that it is offensive to white/bronzed people, or anti-military. To be 100% fair though, as someone from italian-american descent, if they did what George Carlin suggested in one of his books and had a team called, "The Murdering Italians" (as a counterpoint to the Fighting Irish), I would back it 100%. I'm an asshole like that, though. I do have to comment on something though: Fleury's new mask which was designed by Ojibwe artist Patrick Hunter? The only social media outcry I've seen about it being "racist" are from white people. I've seen nothing but positives about MAF's new mask and let me ask you this........if some white people didn't have an outcry about segregation,would it ever have ended. Would 'Bull' Connor have turned off the fire hoses and put the german shepards back in their cages if their was only Black outcry? If the white 'Freedom riders' didn't risk their lives fighting for voting and civil rights in the south,how much longer would those rights have taken? If non-Natives have no right to oppose the logo then why should non-Natives have the right to support it? |
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Post by BigT on Nov 12, 2021 12:59:34 GMT -6
We also have to look at other points of view. Would people of colour enjoy their face or a rendition of their face on a sports jersey? Would white people accept something similar? A white persons face imprinted on a sports jersey or logo worn dominantly by people of colour? For myself only. It would not bother me one bit if it was used to say that person was a great person and it could raise awareness. Now, if a team in the future used Graham James or Brad Alldick. I’d be angry and not want that to see the light of day. Now, others may feel different. That’s fine. But working together should be first priority. It seems that people are becoming offended by someone who’s offended!!! No outcry yet that it is offensive to white/bronzed people, or anti-military. To be 100% fair though, as someone from italian-american descent, if they did what George Carlin suggested in one of his books and had a team called, "The Murdering Italians" (as a counterpoint to the Fighting Irish), I would back it 100%. I'm an asshole like that, though. I do have to comment on something though: Fleury's new mask which was designed by Ojibwe artist Patrick Hunter? The only social media outcry I've seen about it being "racist" are from white people. Let’s be honest. White people kinda suck. Always sticking their nose in someone else’s business. If someone is offended by someone or something to their culture or heritage. Let them be offended. They don’t need white peoples help in being offended. White people are why we’re in this mess. They’re probably not the way out. As Albert Einstein once said. “We cannot use the same type of thinking (or people) that got us into the problem, to get us out of the problem. Why are white people thinking they can solve this for others? Just treat people good and move on. Like if some white person says some racist shit about another culture, why would a white person not even close to the situation say they’re offended? You know what that screams? EVERYONE, LOOK AT ME! I NEED ATTENTION. IM RAISING MY IMPORTANCE TO GET NOTICED. It’s ignorant and let the person of people that should be offended make their own claims. Don’t claim for them. Im not accusing you of anything here just to be clear. Just making a statement. Sorry for the rant!!! |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Nov 12, 2021 13:57:13 GMT -6
Are you demanding a change to the name and logo? If not, I'm not referring to you. Like I said,I demand nothing because I just don't give a fuck about much any more but if I did..........would that give you the right to call me this or that? You aren't demanding they change it and don't give a fuck so why are you getting upset when I wasn't talking to you and never quoted anything you said before my original comment? Like I said, I was just giving my opinion on the matter and a couple key words upset you. I rarely resort to name calling but I can't stand this cancel culture and everyone being so offended...no I'm not referring to you...in general. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Nov 12, 2021 15:09:16 GMT -6
No outcry yet that it is offensive to white/bronzed people, or anti-military. To be 100% fair though, as someone from italian-american descent, if they did what George Carlin suggested in one of his books and had a team called, "The Murdering Italians" (as a counterpoint to the Fighting Irish), I would back it 100%. I'm an asshole like that, though. I do have to comment on something though: Fleury's new mask which was designed by Ojibwe artist Patrick Hunter? The only social media outcry I've seen about it being "racist" are from white people. I've seen nothing but positives about MAF's new mask and let me ask you this........if some white people didn't have an outcry about segregation,would it ever have ended. Would 'Bull' Connor have turned off the fire hoses and put the german shepards back in their cages if their was only Black outcry? If the white 'Freedom riders' didn't risk their lives fighting for voting and civil rights in the south,how much longer would those rights have taken? If non-Natives have no right to oppose the logo then why should non-Natives have the right to support it? My opinion, but it's not up to my fellow white boys to determine what's offensive to other races. That being said there is nothing wrong with being an ally (and I encourage it) as long as there is a lead being followed. No outcry yet that it is offensive to white/bronzed people, or anti-military. To be 100% fair though, as someone from italian-american descent, if they did what George Carlin suggested in one of his books and had a team called, "The Murdering Italians" (as a counterpoint to the Fighting Irish), I would back it 100%. I'm an asshole like that, though. I do have to comment on something though: Fleury's new mask which was designed by Ojibwe artist Patrick Hunter? The only social media outcry I've seen about it being "racist" are from white people. Let’s be honest. White people kinda suck. Always sticking their nose in someone else’s business. If someone is offended by someone or something to their culture or heritage. Let them be offended. They don’t need white peoples help in being offended. White people are why we’re in this mess. They’re probably not the way out. As Albert Einstein once said. “We cannot use the same type of thinking (or people) that got us into the problem, to get us out of the problem. Why are white people thinking they can solve this for others? Just treat people good and move on. Like if some white person says some racist shit about another culture, why would a white person not even close to the situation say they’re offended? You know what that screams? EVERYONE, LOOK AT ME! I NEED ATTENTION. IM RAISING MY IMPORTANCE TO GET NOTICED. It’s ignorant and let the person of people that should be offended make their own claims. Don’t claim for them. Im not accusing you of anything here just to be clear. Just making a statement. Sorry for the rant!!! I get your stance, but as mentioned above, I also have no problem being an ally if needed. What I don't think is appropriate is us white boys saying something is offensive without consulting who it may be offensive to, first. For all we know whatever it is that is supposedly offensive might actually be an icon to the group it supposedly offends. P.S. Yes. White people make me sad. |
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Post by mvr on Nov 12, 2021 20:47:09 GMT -6
We all know there will never be universal consensus within an ethnic/nationalist group.
Among the First Nations communities, there is a tremendous range of ideas about every issue. Of course, many support the team and like the logo. Others, however, object. It is not hard to find examples from both sides of the argument.
Which side represents the majority view? Does it really matter?
If one in ten Natives is offended, is this number okay? How about one in five? At what point would the number of opponents cause the team to pause? How many offended Natives is an acceptable number?
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Post by mvr on Nov 12, 2021 21:01:17 GMT -6
Let's be clear here: if the team was owned by Native people and the money raised was going to Native causes, the debate would not exist.
The Wirtz family are not Natives. The money does not flow with any consistency to the people whose lives are being represented on the jerseys.
The best solution here would be for the Sauk Nation to take over the team and keep the logo.
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Post by vadarx on Nov 12, 2021 21:15:59 GMT -6
Let's be clear here: if the team was owned by Native people and the money raised was going to Native causes, the debate would not exist. The Wirtz family are not Natives. The money does not flow with any consistency to the people whose lives are being represented on the jerseys. The best solution here would be for the Sauk Nation to take over the team and keep the logo. now this plan, I like. gives Rocky and Co plenty of time to worry about their other businesses and with the team being a representation of the Sauk Nation, one would expect that every effort would be put into keeping the team competitive every season. |
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Post by mvr on Nov 12, 2021 21:25:07 GMT -6
Even part ownership - say 20 % - would probably satiate most of the hardline critics.....
Would the Wirtz family consider it? If they intend to keep the name and team logo, they might eventually have no choice.
I say consult some accountants -- find a way to donate the shares as a tax write-off.
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Post by hsbob on Nov 13, 2021 8:48:40 GMT -6
No outcry yet that it is offensive to white/bronzed people, or anti-military. To be 100% fair though, as someone from italian-american descent, if they did what George Carlin suggested in one of his books and had a team called, "The Murdering Italians" (as a counterpoint to the Fighting Irish), I would back it 100%. I'm an asshole like that, though. I do have to comment on something though: Fleury's new mask which was designed by Ojibwe artist Patrick Hunter? The only social media outcry I've seen about it being "racist" are from white people. Let’s be honest. White people kinda suck. Always sticking their nose in someone else’s business. If someone is offended by someone or something to their culture or heritage. Let them be offended. They don’t need white peoples help in being offended. White people are why we’re in this mess. They’re probably not the way out. As Albert Einstein once said. “We cannot use the same type of thinking (or people) that got us into the problem, to get us out of the problem. Why are white people thinking they can solve this for others? Just treat people good and move on. Like if some white person says some racist shit about another culture, why would a white person not even close to the situation say they’re offended? You know what that screams? EVERYONE, LOOK AT ME! I NEED ATTENTION. IM RAISING MY IMPORTANCE TO GET NOTICED. It’s ignorant and let the person of people that should be offended make their own claims. Don’t claim for them. Im not accusing you of anything here just to be clear. Just making a statement. Sorry for the rant!!! So when you hear vile racist language about 'another culture' ....you're good? If I hear vile racist language about 'another culture'....I should be good too? I care about minorities and I always have and believe me,it created tension with some friends(former friends now) and I knew it would on a hockey board too but that's the LEAST of my concerns. The last four or five years has made it cool to say racist shit again and that's what's IGNORANT. So anyone who's offended by racist insults and slurs targeting a race or culture other than theirs is an attention seeker? Anyone who isn't is a racist fuck! "White people are why we're in this mess"........NO SHIT! |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 13, 2021 9:23:14 GMT -6
Like I said,I demand nothing because I just don't give a fuck about much any more but if I did..........would that give you the right to call me this or that? You aren't demanding they change it and don't give a fuck so why are you getting upset when I wasn't talking to you and never quoted anything you said before my original comment? Like I said, I was just giving my opinion on the matter and a couple key words upset you. I rarely resort to name calling but I can't stand this cancel culture and everyone being so offended...no I'm not referring to you...in general. There's only 2 or 3 posters in here who aren't on board with the logo so when the 'woke' and 'karen' bullshit starts flyin',it ain't that hard to put 2&2 together and since I've voiced opposition to the logo all throughout this thread,you are referring to me. It's nothing I won't get past OTH because I know the pitfalls of having an unpopular opinion on a MB but I'll remind everyone that I NEVER called anyone anything for supporting the logo but I walked into a hail of 'fucking woke,karen,cancel culture' bullshit for opposing it but water off a big duck's back my friend. This debate unfortunately changed from whether the logo and name are respectful or not,a tribute or not,accepted by various tribes or not and whether or not what's accepted by society changes over time(all good debates) to.... STFU you 'woke karen' and if you're white,STFU about what happens to other cultures..........GOOD LUCK WITH THAT! And yes,some cancel culture has gone too far and some has canceled some rotten,hateful behavior too. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 13, 2021 10:11:05 GMT -6
I've seen nothing but positives about MAF's new mask and let me ask you this........if some white people didn't have an outcry about segregation,would it ever have ended. Would 'Bull' Connor have turned off the fire hoses and put the german shepards back in their cages if their was only Black outcry? If the white 'Freedom riders' didn't risk their lives fighting for voting and civil rights in the south,how much longer would those rights have taken? If non-Natives have no right to oppose the logo then why should non-Natives have the right to support it? My opinion, but it's not up to my fellow white boys to determine what's offensive to other races. That being said there is nothing wrong with being an ally (and I encourage it) as long as there is a lead being followed. Let’s be honest. White people kinda suck. Always sticking their nose in someone else’s business. If someone is offended by someone or something to their culture or heritage. Let them be offended. They don’t need white peoples help in being offended. White people are why we’re in this mess. They’re probably not the way out. As Albert Einstein once said. “We cannot use the same type of thinking (or people) that got us into the problem, to get us out of the problem. Why are white people thinking they can solve this for others? Just treat people good and move on. Like if some white person says some racist shit about another culture, why would a white person not even close to the situation say they’re offended? You know what that screams? EVERYONE, LOOK AT ME! I NEED ATTENTION. IM RAISING MY IMPORTANCE TO GET NOTICED. It’s ignorant and let the person of people that should be offended make their own claims. Don’t claim for them. Im not accusing you of anything here just to be clear. Just making a statement. Sorry for the rant!!! I get your stance, but as mentioned above, I also have no problem being an ally if needed. What I don't think is appropriate is us white boys saying something is offensive without consulting who it may be offensive to, first. For all we know whatever it is that is supposedly offensive might actually be an icon to the group it supposedly offends. P.S. Yes. White people make me sad. If 'us white boys' can't say an issue we consider offensive to other cultures is so without consulting them,then why can we so vehemently and sarcastically say the same issue isn't offensive without consultation? Do either one of us need to consult a particular race,creed or culture to be offended by something we see as hateful or demeaning or do we draw on our own sensibilities? Does this 'white boy' need the permission of the Lakota descendants at Pine Ridge to feel outrage and shame at what happen at 'Wounded Knee'? I also didn't ask the African American community if my outrage over little girls being burned to death at a Birmingham church firebombing was appropriate....I knew it was and I was only seven at the time. NO.....these are NOT apples to apples comparisons to a patch on a sweater,just a reminder that we can find what happens to other races/cultures offensive without needing to be told it's okay. The insinuations from many sides here sound like STFU if it ain't your race or culture and that's pure complicity as far as I'm concerned. Look the other way! It ain't your dead ancestor's head on that sweater so 'move on' I hear and I probably will because like I said,I'm not losin' sleep......just to pee LOL.......I just posted how I felt on a MB. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 13, 2021 10:37:08 GMT -6
We all know there will never be universal consensus within an ethnic/nationalist group. Among the First Nations communities, there is a tremendous range of ideas about every issue. Of course, many support the team and like the logo. Others, however, object. It is not hard to find examples from both sides of the argument. Which side represents the majority view? Does it really matter? If one in ten Natives is offended, is this number okay? How about one in five? At what point would the number of opponents cause the team to pause? How many offended Natives is an acceptable number? There absolutely will never be a consensus because the NA community has so many larger issues to address and many are beyond the reach of phone/inter-net if not water too. From what I've seen,I do feel the anger NA organizations have shown against some of the other logos/mascots/chants of the teams using their imagery or names isn't at the same level at all with the Hawks and it's never been with me either. I just thought we could debate whether it was still appropriate but it doesn't look like it. The majority view is plain to see here,I only represent my own. Does it matter? Not to me. |
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Post by BigT on Nov 13, 2021 10:56:53 GMT -6
Let’s be honest. White people kinda suck. Always sticking their nose in someone else’s business. If someone is offended by someone or something to their culture or heritage. Let them be offended. They don’t need white peoples help in being offended. White people are why we’re in this mess. They’re probably not the way out. As Albert Einstein once said. “We cannot use the same type of thinking (or people) that got us into the problem, to get us out of the problem. Why are white people thinking they can solve this for others? Just treat people good and move on. Like if some white person says some racist shit about another culture, why would a white person not even close to the situation say they’re offended? You know what that screams? EVERYONE, LOOK AT ME! I NEED ATTENTION. IM RAISING MY IMPORTANCE TO GET NOTICED. It’s ignorant and let the person of people that should be offended make their own claims. Don’t claim for them. Im not accusing you of anything here just to be clear. Just making a statement. Sorry for the rant!!! So when you hear vile racist language about 'another culture' ....you're good? If I hear vile racist language about 'another culture'....I should be good too?  I care about minorities and I always have and believe me,it created tension with some friends(former friends now) and I knew it would on a hockey board too but that's the LEAST of my concerns. The last four or five years has made it cool to say racist shit again and that's what's IGNORANT. So anyone who's offended by racist insults and slurs targeting a race or culture other than theirs is an attention seeker? Anyone who isn't is a racist fuck! "White people are why we're in this mess"........NO SHIT!  Bob I don’t know where you live, but my suggestion to you is if it’s that horrible of a place that is filled with racist shit and vile people. You should seriously consider moving. It’s nothing like what you say here. I really don’t know where these people are that you say are so readily available? I don’t even read that online. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that kind of racism that you speak of constantly. A best friend of mine James (RIP) was a proud black man. This shit never came up and we just lived like normal people. I have a good friend Shawn who now lives on Manitoulin Island on the reserve there. We don’t talk about this indigenous racist shit you talk about. And yes, I’ve worn my Blackhawks stuff around him and his brothers and not once have they ever said that it was racist. I’ve recently talked to him about this stuff and the residential school findings here in Canada. He said to me, “you’ve always been a good friend and you have no reason to apologize for something you didn’t do or condone”. Maybe it’s my small sample size. But I have family in Michigan and the stuff you say I just don’t see. So I’m sorry if you do see that daily. I’m not calling you out. I just don’t see this. Maybe I’m not looking hard enough? But if your life is full of that stuff. Make changes. I know I would!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 13, 2021 11:12:30 GMT -6
So when you hear vile racist language about 'another culture' ....you're good? If I hear vile racist language about 'another culture'....I should be good too? I care about minorities and I always have and believe me,it created tension with some friends(former friends now) and I knew it would on a hockey board too but that's the LEAST of my concerns. The last four or five years has made it cool to say racist shit again and that's what's IGNORANT. So anyone who's offended by racist insults and slurs targeting a race or culture other than theirs is an attention seeker? Anyone who isn't is a racist fuck! "White people are why we're in this mess"........NO SHIT! Bob I don’t know where you live, but my suggestion to you is if it’s that horrible of a place that is filled with racist shit and vile people. You should seriously consider moving. It’s nothing like what you say here. I really don’t know where these people are that you say are so readily available? I don’t even read that online. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that kind of racism that you speak of constantly. A best friend of mine James (RIP) was a proud black man. This shit never came up and we just lived like normal people. I have a good friend Shawn who now lives on Manitoulin Island on the reserve there. We don’t talk about this indigenous racist shit you talk about. And yes, I’ve worn my Blackhawks stuff around him and his brothers and not once have they ever said that it was racist. I’ve recently talked to him about this stuff and the residential school findings here in Canada. He said to me, “you’ve always been a good friend and you have no reason to apologize for something you didn’t do or condone”. Maybe it’s my small sample size. But I have family in Michigan and the stuff you say I just don’t see. So I’m sorry if you do see that daily. I’m not calling you out. I just don’t see this. Maybe I’m not looking hard enough? But if your life is full of that stuff. Make changes. I know I would!!! I spent a good deal of time up there and race relations are different,believe me. I plan to stay right where I am because I refer to society in general and I'm sure many see no racism......as a matter of fact,I'm sure of it. I don't need to move or make changes and my life isn't full of that stuff either,I just see what I see and feel the way I do about it. I know addressing past atrocities is uncomfortable and that's why it's rarely done. What bothers some of us doesn't bother others. |
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Post by BigT on Nov 13, 2021 11:16:29 GMT -6
Bob I don’t know where you live, but my suggestion to you is if it’s that horrible of a place that is filled with racist shit and vile people. You should seriously consider moving. It’s nothing like what you say here. I really don’t know where these people are that you say are so readily available? I don’t even read that online. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that kind of racism that you speak of constantly. A best friend of mine James (RIP) was a proud black man. This shit never came up and we just lived like normal people. I have a good friend Shawn who now lives on Manitoulin Island on the reserve there. We don’t talk about this indigenous racist shit you talk about. And yes, I’ve worn my Blackhawks stuff around him and his brothers and not once have they ever said that it was racist. I’ve recently talked to him about this stuff and the residential school findings here in Canada. He said to me, “you’ve always been a good friend and you have no reason to apologize for something you didn’t do or condone”. Maybe it’s my small sample size. But I have family in Michigan and the stuff you say I just don’t see. So I’m sorry if you do see that daily. I’m not calling you out. I just don’t see this. Maybe I’m not looking hard enough? But if your life is full of that stuff. Make changes. I know I would!!! I spent a good deal of time up there and race relations are different,believe me. I plan to stay right where I am because I refer to society in general and I'm sure many see no racism......as a matter of fact,I'm sure of it. I don't need to move or make changes and my life isn't full of that stuff either,I just see what I see and feel the way I do about it. I know addressing past atrocities is uncomfortable and that's why it's rarely done. What bothers some of us doesn't bother others.    Well said Bob. I couldn’t agree more!!! |
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Post by squishy24 on Nov 13, 2021 12:18:48 GMT -6
"hawks name logo" - there is no debate on this. The Sauk/Fox nation have no issues with the hockey team using Chief Blackhawks name and image.
Now, if they change their mind and demand the removal of it, then i'll support them as well.
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Post by mvr on Nov 13, 2021 16:08:01 GMT -6
There is a debate, Squishy. Not every single member of the Sauk/Fox nation feels the same way as their tribal leaders who represent their interests.
When President Trump was in power, did he speak for everyone?
Does Joe Biden speak for everyone now? Of course not.
Leaders represent the views of their supporters. They do not speak for everyone. Often, they do not really speak for anyone other than themselves. Their opinions are their own.
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Post by squishy24 on Nov 13, 2021 17:01:40 GMT -6
There is a debate, Squishy. Not every single member of the Sauk/Fox nation feels the same way as their tribal leaders who represent their interests. When President Trump was in power, did he speak for everyone? Does Joe Biden speak for everyone now? Of course not. Leaders represent the views of their supporters. They do not speak for everyone. Often, they do not really speak for anyone other than themselves.  Their opinions are their own. Of course not everyone is going to agree with one single idea. And just like in the politics you mentioned, we have a system that collectively defines who the one president is, just like the Sauk/Fox they have collectively made which one action to take with issue. Youll always have the “not my president” or “not what i agree with” view, at the end of the day there is one definition of who the president is and one action they have taken. Otherwise, no decision is made |
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Post by mvr on Nov 13, 2021 17:31:43 GMT -6
So again - the real issue comes down to how many Native peoples are we as fans willing to offend so that we can keep our beloved logo and uniform?
Do we tolerate offending 25% of the population? How about 40%? Would we be okay with 60% so long as the Sauk leadership maintains its present position?
We have no way of knowing the present number (especially considering most of the studies being done are either politically motivated or sponsored by the teams' public relations departments).
No serious person would deny at this point that there is opposition. We know this opposition is growing and is becoming more confident and activist especially among the younger and more educated groups. The Redskins, Eskimos, Fighting Sioux and Indians have all had to concede a lost public relations battle in recent years.
The Hawks can't avoid this wave, but they can try to redirect the conversation with some dramatic moves. To my mind, their efforts so far have been ineffective and defensive.
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Post by squishy24 on Nov 13, 2021 17:51:27 GMT -6
So again - the real issue comes down to how many Native peoples are we as fans willing to offend so that we can keep our beloved logo and uniform? Do we tolerate offending 25% of the population? How about 40%? Would we be okay with 60% so long as the Sauk leadership maintains its present position? We have no way of knowing the present number (especially considering most of the studies being done are either politically motivated or sponsored by the teams' public relations departments). No serious person would deny at this point that there is opposition. We know this opposition is growing and is becoming more confident and activist especially among the younger and more educated groups. The Redskins, Eskimos, Fighting Sioux and Indians have all had to concede a lost public relations battle in recent years. The Hawks can't avoid this wave, but they can try to redirect the conversation with some dramatic moves. To my mind, their efforts so far have been ineffective and defensive. LOL if 90% sauk/fox nation say remove the logo, would you fight for the offended 10% that wants it? You have a problem with the current state of things because its not agreeing with your “mind” and youre not getting what you want. At the end of day its just selfish and hypcritical |
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Post by mvr on Nov 13, 2021 20:22:45 GMT -6
It's actually the exact opposite.
If I knew even 10% were offended, I would hesitate to wear the sweater. The logo represents their likeness, not mine.
I grew up with the sweater and still love its look. It is truly the most artistic in all of sport. If I truly believed only radical white "wokes" were offended, I would brush aside all concerns.
But we all know by this stage that this is not true (even if we really want it to be so).
As hsbob has pointed out, many Native organizations across the country disagree with the Sauk leadership's present position. They are impacted by the stereotypes as much the local tribe.
The singer Al Jolson painted his face black as a sign of respect to those whose music he loved. At the time, the idea seemed progressive. Now we know differently. I am sure there are many blacks who do not object to blackface, just like there are some who have no problem with Civil War era statues and flags. But the times have changed, and they will continue to change.
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Post by mvr on Nov 13, 2021 21:10:01 GMT -6
In the end, the television producers and the sponsors will decide if or when a change is needed.
These people tend to be hyper-sensitive to criticism. If they come to believe the Blackhawks name or logo is toxic for the brand, they will pressure the league and the team to change it.
If nothing changes, I would be extremely surprised if the team retains its present look beyond 2025. I still hope I am wrong. Much work needs to be done.
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Post by BigT on Nov 13, 2021 22:10:33 GMT -6
It's actually the exact opposite. If I knew even 10% were offended, I would hesitate to wear the sweater. The logo represents their likeness, not mine. I grew up with the sweater and still love its look. It is truly the most artistic in all of sport. If I truly believed only radical white "wokes" were offended, I would brush aside all concerns. But we all know by this stage that this is not true (even if we really want it to be so). As hsbob has pointed out, many Native organizations across the country disagree with the Sauk leadership's present position. They are impacted by the stereotypes as much the local tribe. The singer Al Jolson painted his face black as a sign of respect to those whose music he loved. At the time, the idea seemed progressive. Now we know differently. I am sure there are many blacks who do not object to blackface, just like there are some who have no problem with Civil War era statues and flags. But the times have changed, and they will continue to change. One thing about the civil war, not many countries (only one) decorate and cherish people who lost a war and surrendered. So the civil war thing is kind of a non starter in this conversation. I know many indigenous peoples and to be honest. I’ve never heard one complain about any sports team or anything like that. But that’s just my sample size. I also heard OTH say pretty much the same thing. If we’re talking atrocities that have happened to the native folk, sure, it was awful, but it was awful for a lot of people throughout time. We cannot change the outcomes of yesteryear. But we need to learn from it and if promoting Chief Blackhawk is a way forward, I’m ok with it. Again, every native I talk to is ok with it. At the end of the day. We’re all hypocrites because not one of us is willing to give our land back to them. Not one. So arguing back and forth over a gawd damn logo is pointless. Give your land back to them then make a point about the logo. Every person on this planet has their property due to conquering someone else or doing injustice to someone one else. Every culture has been to war. It’s just who we are. I’m not saying I agree with it, it is what it is!!! |
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Post by squishy24 on Nov 13, 2021 22:36:03 GMT -6
In the end, the television producers and the sponsors will decide if or when a change is needed. These people tend to be hyper-sensitive to criticism. If they come to believe the Blackhawks name or logo is toxic for the brand, they will pressure the league and the team to change it. If nothing changes, I would be extremely surprised if the team retains its present look beyond 2025. I still hope I am wrong. Much work needs to be done. And that is going to be the next bad thing about this. Sponsors and tv producers might dictate what to do with the logo and it will no longer be at the decision of Chief Blackhawks people. Some other outside entity is going to make the decisions regarding this issue. Another thing that might happen is people outside of the Sauks, either other native american indian tribes (NAIT for short) or “white people” might pressure and shun the Sauks for working and allowing the hockey team use the logo. Again, forcing decisions upon them. I agree with you about a social change is coming and its probably already here, but these changes dont care if theyre right or wrong. They just want the end result to be in their favor. |
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