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Post by LordKOTL on May 27, 2022 9:29:03 GMT -6
In my opinion both Q and Stan needed to go. Q got stale in the locker room. Stan failed to properly bring in the right pieces to retool, rebuild, and overpaid for what meager assets he did bring in. Both should have been gone the summer of 2018 at the latest. Even good HC's get stale and every one of em's been fired.....your point is fair. But the summer of '18' saw a locker room that went without Hossa,Hammer,Panarin,Sharp,Shaw and Keith and Seabs millage was QUICKLY catching up with both......throw in losing Crawford and going w/o a NHL calabre GT and I might not put that season on the HC because NONE of those players were replaced. D-Cat did arrive and Q did have him playing a big role right away but that was about it. Cleaning house that summer and bringing in REAL hockey people would have been okay with me. I don't put all of that on Q alone, but I think as an NHL head coach he does have to manage egos and get as much out of his players as possible. I really think given their performances in 2019 that Toews, and especially Keith, could have played MUCH better in 2018 unless they had a hidden injury, and in that case there was zero reason to play them as-much as they were played after Crawford went down. Either Q stuck to his guns in an Wile E. Coyote-type exercise in futility, or the players tuned him out. Either way it should have been time for a change in my opinion. We both have a similar view of Q: he is one of the best coaches ever but I think he just got stale. It happens. It doesn't negate the times he completely out-coached other coaches for the cup runs. Stan, well, I won't rehash my feelings on where he should have been employed to begin with. However, given the upper brass' reaction to the 2017 playoff disaster, the summer of 2018 would have been the best time to part ways with Q and Stan--taking the stance of coaches and GM's are "hired to be fired". Instead we brough in a so-green-he-needed-mowing head coach 1/3 of the way through the season with zero time to shift and acclimate the team (instead of doing it over the summer where game plans and systems can be drawn out with time to actually learn them in training camp). |
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Post by hsbob on May 27, 2022 15:57:36 GMT -6
Even good HC's get stale and every one of em's been fired.....your point is fair. But the summer of '18' saw a locker room that went without Hossa,Hammer,Panarin,Sharp,Shaw and Keith and Seabs millage was QUICKLY catching up with both......throw in losing Crawford and going w/o a NHL calabre GT and I might not put that season on the HC because NONE of those players were replaced. D-Cat did arrive and Q did have him playing a big role right away but that was about it. Cleaning house that summer and bringing in REAL hockey people would have been okay with me. I don't put all of that on Q alone, but I think as an NHL head coach he does have to manage egos and get as much out of his players as possible. I really think given their performances in 2019 that Toews, and especially Keith, could have played MUCH better in 2018 unless they had a hidden injury, and in that case there was zero reason to play them as-much as they were played after Crawford went down. Either Q stuck to his guns in an Wile E. Coyote-type exercise in futility, or the players tuned him out. Either way it should have been time for a change in my opinion. We both have a similar view of Q: he is one of the best coaches ever but I think he just got stale. It happens. It doesn't negate the times he completely out-coached other coaches for the cup runs. Stan, well, I won't rehash my feelings on where he should have been employed to begin with. However, given the upper brass' reaction to the 2017 playoff disaster, the summer of 2018 would have been the best time to part ways with Q and Stan--taking the stance of coaches and GM's are "hired to be fired". Instead we brough in a so-green-he-needed-mowing head coach 1/3 of the way through the season with zero time to shift and acclimate the team (instead of doing it over the summer where game plans and systems can be drawn out with time to actually learn them in training camp). The team was holding onto a spot about half way through that year when just about the same time CC went down,2/3 of a very good 4th line,Bouma and Hayden went to Rockford along with Franson and yes,the vets knew it was a tank when those things happened and especially when no NHL goaltender was brought in. |
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Post by LordKOTL on May 29, 2022 14:25:26 GMT -6
I don't put all of that on Q alone, but I think as an NHL head coach he does have to manage egos and get as much out of his players as possible. I really think given their performances in 2019 that Toews, and especially Keith, could have played MUCH better in 2018 unless they had a hidden injury, and in that case there was zero reason to play them as-much as they were played after Crawford went down. Either Q stuck to his guns in an Wile E. Coyote-type exercise in futility, or the players tuned him out. Either way it should have been time for a change in my opinion. We both have a similar view of Q: he is one of the best coaches ever but I think he just got stale. It happens. It doesn't negate the times he completely out-coached other coaches for the cup runs. Stan, well, I won't rehash my feelings on where he should have been employed to begin with. However, given the upper brass' reaction to the 2017 playoff disaster, the summer of 2018 would have been the best time to part ways with Q and Stan--taking the stance of coaches and GM's are "hired to be fired". Instead we brough in a so-green-he-needed-mowing head coach 1/3 of the way through the season with zero time to shift and acclimate the team (instead of doing it over the summer where game plans and systems can be drawn out with time to actually learn them in training camp). The team was holding onto a spot about half way through that year when just about the same time CC went down,2/3 of a very good 4th line,Bouma and Hayden went to Rockford along with Franson and yes,the vets knew it was a tank when those things happened and especially when no NHL goaltender was brought in. They were holding onto that spot because of Crawford. He masked all of the backend issues. Even if the vets knew it was a tank, Stan and Q didn't play the team as if it was--given how Toews and Keith (among others) looked even when Crawford was saving their bacon, there was no need to tun them roughshod. Kane, sure, pad his stats since he was doing stuff offensively. But they could have dialed back some icetime for the vets to prevent fatigue and injury, but they didn't. That is where they failed. I think the vets had it right; coaching and GM had it wrong. Besdies, with how nay other guys they could have cycled into the lineup we could have had a better grasp on where certain players were, and thus whether or not we could have kept or moved on. |
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Post by mvr on May 29, 2022 16:02:45 GMT -6
Why would any GM,let alone an abstract failure, interfere with his HoF HC's staff? The sum of Saad vs Panarin shows Panarin as one of the games best players every year since the trade and Saad as a complimentary piece.......Panarin was worth much more and has proved that unequivocally!! Muphy is now a concussed/often injured in other ways shell of a player who was average at best with little offense but DUMBASS re-signed him for an untradable 4.4MX4 anyway! A GM who wanted to win. A GM who was not afraid to ruffle feathers. A GM who realized the defensive schemes were not working and a GM that realized that Q's loyalty to Kitchen was strong so he had to be the bad guy. Hindsight is 20/20 so yes he should have got more for Panarin. Panarin would have still ended up elsewhere and we have no way of knowing if we would have gotten more or less. When you have a Hall of Fame coach with three cups in six years, you ask him what he wants and include him on all decisions. If you disagree with him, too bad. You should suck it up and do what you are told. Little Bowman (who inherited most of his core players) unfortunately came to believe he knew more about hockey than the coach. This became a big problem. The big turning point was that trade deadline in 2016. Quenneville wanted some quality physicality and some help on defence. Bowman traded Danault to Montreal for players the coach did not need or want. The result was Quenneville stubbornly dressing Mashinter in game one against St. Louis and sitting Bowman's players in the press box. The pissing match resulted in a squandered seven game series loss which ended all pretense that these two could still work together. The Hawks could have won that series and another cup. Bowman's ego drove him to trade Panarin and Hjalmarsson and cut Mike Kitchen. He wanted to remind Quenneville who was boss. |
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Post by nighbor on Jun 3, 2022 13:04:03 GMT -6
A GM who wanted to win. A GM who was not afraid to ruffle feathers. A GM who realized the defensive schemes were not working and a GM that realized that Q's loyalty to Kitchen was strong so he had to be the bad guy. Hindsight is 20/20 so yes he should have got more for Panarin. Panarin would have still ended up elsewhere and we have no way of knowing if we would have gotten more or less. When you have a Hall of Fame coach with three cups in six years, you ask him what he wants and include him on all decisions. If you disagree with him, too bad. You should suck it up and do what you are told. Little Bowman (who inherited most of his core players) unfortunately came to believe he knew more about hockey than the coach. This became a big problem. The big turning point was that trade deadline in 2016. Quenneville wanted some quality physicality and some help on defence. Bowman traded Danault to Montreal for players the coach did not need or want. The result was Quenneville stubbornly dressing Mashinter in game one against St. Louis and sitting Bowman's players in the press box. The pissing match resulted in a squandered seven game series loss which ended all pretense that these two could still work together. The Hawks could have won that series and another cup. Bowman's ego drove him to trade Panarin and Hjalmarsson and cut Mike Kitchen. He wanted to remind Quenneville who was boss. Before Q started working with Stan being a HoF coach was nothing more than a dream. 47% or his victories came here in Chicago. All his 3 cups came with Stan as GM. Ever year Q came to Stan with his wish list to put the team over the top and Stan did his best to oblige. The result was 3 cups and several near misses. Not bad by anyones standards. To say Stan did not listen to the needs of Q is utter BULL SHIT. No! Stan should not have kissed Q's ass. They accomplished much working as a team. As for the 2016 TDL well Q wears big boy pants and knows you don't always get what you want. When I don't get what I want from Santa I suck it up and make the best of a bad situation. If Q sulked and did something in retaliation that is on him. Here we are in 2022 collectively crying in our beer over the fact we didn't start the rebuild after the last cup. We are discussing trading 12 19 and 88 our star players and here you make a big fuss over Stan trading #4. We finished first in the west playing like champs. What worked in the regular season failed in the playoffs. Ego had nothing to do with Stan's moves. We were humiliated by an 8th placed team and changes had to be made if we were going to keep up to a changing NHL. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 3, 2022 14:22:12 GMT -6
The changes did not work.
Every move Bowman attempted post 2015 alienated staff members and isolated management further. Staff members, coaches, players and upper management came and went as the general manager became increasingly authoritarian in his approach and began to think of himself as the sole reason for the team's success.
Beyond his inflated sense of his own accomplishments, Bowman also was driven by this narrow ideological certainly, a false belief that size and physicality did not matter in the modern game (and that anyone such as Quenneville who thought so was a dinosaur clinging to outdated ideas). Unlike all other teams, the Hawks basically ignored the Canadian Junior Leagues for the better part of a decade - wasting pick after pick on small perimeter types from Europe and the US college system. He was clearly out to prove that he was smarter than everyone else using more traditional approaches to finding and developing talent.
The result was a wasted decade with little to show in the system to support an aging core and an inexperienced head coach in way over his head (whose main value clearly was as a Bowman "yes" man.)
People do change over time, and the young ambitious general manager who took over with the team in 2010 was not the same guy as the cynical Nixonian power guy who ran the show in 2021.
Bowman was the head guy during the cup years, but his influence was minor. He did not win the cups. The players did, and the core was assembled by Bowman's predecessors and coached by a good staff led by Quenneville.
Bowman crashed the plane soon after he switched off the autopilot and started to steer it himself.
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Post by Nikos on Jun 3, 2022 15:22:37 GMT -6
The changes did not work. Every move Bowman attempted post 2015 alienated staff members and isolated management further. Staff members, coaches, players and upper management came and went as the general manager became increasingly authoritarian in his approach and began to think of himself as the sole reason for the team's success. Beyond his inflated sense of his own accomplishments, Bowman also was driven by this narrow ideological certainly, a false belief that size and physicality did not matter in the modern game (and that anyone such as Quenneville who thought so was a dinosaur clinging to outdated ideas). Unlike all other teams, the Hawks basically ignored the Canadian Junior Leagues for the better part of a decade - wasting pick after pick on small perimeter types from Europe and the US college system. He was clearly out to prove that he was smarter than everyone else using more traditional approaches to finding and developing talent. The result was a wasted decade with little to show in the system to support an aging core and an inexperienced head coach in way over his head (whose main value clearly was as a Bowman "yes" man.) People do change over time, and the young ambitious general manager who took over with the team in 2010 was not the same guy as the cynical Nixonian power guy who ran the show in 2021. Bowman was the head guy during the cup years, but his influence was minor. He did not win the cups. The players did, and the core was assembled by Bowman's predecessors and coached by a good staff led by Quenneville. Bowman crashed the plane soon after he switched off the autopilot and started to steer it himself. Well said MVR about players winning championships, just like Jerry Krause of the Bulls was wrong when he said organizations wins championship. It is the hockey players who decide to block a 100 MPH slap shot with little regard of injury or put their career in jeopardy. It is the hockey players who after playing a grueling regular season and an extended payoff season crammed in 8 weeks and after playing the games some going into multiple overtime to dig deep and to do all they can to win the game. It is the hockey players who play through broken bones and not wanting to come out of the lineup buy shooting themselves up or taking dangerous painkillers, freezing parts of their body so they do not feel anything for a few hours. Look most thought here the Panthers were ready to take the next step and their GM made by most accounts some great moves at the TDL acquiring Chiarot, Giroux and they still fell short. |
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Post by nighbor on Jun 4, 2022 22:35:41 GMT -6
The changes did not work. Every move Bowman attempted post 2015 alienated staff members and isolated management further. Staff members, coaches, players and upper management came and went as the general manager became increasingly authoritarian in his approach and began to think of himself as the sole reason for the team's success. Beyond his inflated sense of his own accomplishments, Bowman also was driven by this narrow ideological certainly, a false belief that size and physicality did not matter in the modern game (and that anyone such as Quenneville who thought so was a dinosaur clinging to outdated ideas). Unlike all other teams, the Hawks basically ignored the Canadian Junior Leagues for the better part of a decade - wasting pick after pick on small perimeter types from Europe and the US college system. He was clearly out to prove that he was smarter than everyone else using more traditional approaches to finding and developing talent. The result was a wasted decade with little to show in the system to support an aging core and an inexperienced head coach in way over his head (whose main value clearly was as a Bowman "yes" man.) People do change over time, and the young ambitious general manager who took over with the team in 2010 was not the same guy as the cynical Nixonian power guy who ran the show in 2021. Bowman was the head guy during the cup years, but his influence was minor. He did not win the cups. The players did, and the core was assembled by Bowman's predecessors and coached by a good staff led by Quenneville. Bowman crashed the plane soon after he switched off the autopilot and started to steer it himself. Well said MVR about players winning championships, just like Jerry Krause of the Bulls was wrong when he said organizations wins championship. It is the hockey players who decide to block a 100 MPH slap shot with little regard of injury or put their career in jeopardy. It is the hockey players who after playing a grueling regular season and an extended payoff season crammed in 8 weeks and after playing the games some going into multiple overtime to dig deep and to do all they can to win the game. It is the hockey players who play through broken bones and not wanting to come out of the lineup buy shooting themselves up or taking dangerous painkillers, freezing parts of their body so they do not feel anything for a few hours. Look most thought here the Panthers were ready to take the next step and their GM made by most accounts some great moves at the TDL acquiring Chiarot, Giroux and they still fell short. Players win championships. No truer words ever spoken. Only the players win them not the GM nor the HC. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 5, 2022 8:59:59 GMT -6
If that’s the case. Hawks are ahead of the curve. No president, hopefully no GM or coach soon. The Wirtz’s will love that. They’ll save millions!
Can’t wait to see this new brand of hockey where coaches or management don’t matter. So, Strome benched himself. Glad he could see the faults in his game!!!
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Post by hsbob on Jun 5, 2022 10:03:35 GMT -6
If that’s the case. Hawks are ahead of the curve. No president, hopefully no GM or coach soon. The Wirtz’s will love that. They’ll save millions! Can’t wait to see this new brand of hockey where coaches or management don’t matter. So, Strome benched himself. Glad he could see the faults in his game!!! When DUMBASS is no longer defense-able,deminishing Joel Quenneville’s HoF accomplishments is all that’s left I guess. |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 5, 2022 10:16:00 GMT -6
The changes did not work. Every move Bowman attempted post 2015 alienated staff members and isolated management further. Staff members, coaches, players and upper management came and went as the general manager became increasingly authoritarian in his approach and began to think of himself as the sole reason for the team's success. Beyond his inflated sense of his own accomplishments, Bowman also was driven by this narrow ideological certainly, a false belief that size and physicality did not matter in the modern game (and that anyone such as Quenneville who thought so was a dinosaur clinging to outdated ideas). Unlike all other teams, the Hawks basically ignored the Canadian Junior Leagues for the better part of a decade - wasting pick after pick on small perimeter types from Europe and the US college system. He was clearly out to prove that he was smarter than everyone else using more traditional approaches to finding and developing talent. The result was a wasted decade with little to show in the system to support an aging core and an inexperienced head coach in way over his head (whose main value clearly was as a Bowman "yes" man.) People do change over time, and the young ambitious general manager who took over with the team in 2010 was not the same guy as the cynical Nixonian power guy who ran the show in 2021. Bowman was the head guy during the cup years, but his influence was minor. He did not win the cups. The players did, and the core was assembled by Bowman's predecessors and coached by a good staff led by Quenneville. Bowman crashed the plane soon after he switched off the autopilot and started to steer it himself. I wanted bigger players too but TT,Schmatz and Hartman are all good NHL’ers and not wasted picks. Tyler Motte’s even helping the Rags. Lil Dudes Boqvist and Beaudun.......yes. Mark McNeil was a big Canadian center and he WAS a wasted pick also. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 5, 2022 11:07:24 GMT -6
My fear is that Dach could be another McNeil type. I was worried from the vet go with him as he didn’t have much experience playing hockey in many situations. Yet he gets strewn into an NHL slot when clearly not ready. Bo Byram looking pretty good with the Avs up 3-0 in the Conference finals. He may not be Makar type, but he’s definitely a solid dman with a lot of upside. The only bright spot is that Scambo didn’t take Turcotte. And that’s a very small upside!!!
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 5, 2022 14:57:08 GMT -6
My fear is that Dach could be another McNeil type. I was worried from the vet go with him as he didn’t have much experience playing hockey in many situations. Yet he gets strewn into an NHL slot when clearly not ready. Bo Byram looking pretty good with the Avs up 3-0 in the Conference finals. He may not be Makar type, but he’s definitely a solid dman with a lot of upside. The only bright spot is that Scambo didn’t take Turcotte. And that’s a very small upside!!! McNeill was drafted 18th overall and only played 2 NHL games, Dach is already much better than that pick. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 5, 2022 19:09:41 GMT -6
McNeil was one of the picks where Bowman did not reach or go off the boards. Most amateur scouts had him at that spot (18th) or even a little earlier in the first round. thehockeywriters.com/the-next-ones-mark-mcneill-2011-nhl-draft-prospect-profile-the-forward-you-can-count-on/ At the time, I was happy with the pick, though I worried about his on-ice vision and tendency to keep his head down. McNeil was physically mature (6"2" 210 pound), and coming off a strong junior season. There was talk that he would break camp. Unfortunately, he just never seemed to get any better, while others drafted later by the Hawks that year - Saad, Danault and Shaw - quickly developed into useful players. Why did McNeil not develop? Who was responsible for his lack of growth? Was it a bad pick? Did the player have a poor attitude? Did the scouts miss something? I do not know the answers. I do believe McNeil's failure (and Kyle Beach's) turned Bowman off the WHL and physical hockey players in particular. This is when the general manager really began shifting focus to smaller, perimeter guys and start talking to the press about how the game had somehow changed. Bowman did not draft another big centre with a high pick`for many years. He basically abandoned the WHL - a key breeding ground for NHL talent - for a decade. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 5, 2022 19:23:07 GMT -6
I believe the player lost his confidence. After finishing Juniors, McNeil played four full years in Rockford. In year 3 (2015-16) he produced 48 points in 64 games, including 25 goals. The Hawks were auditioning young players that year, but McNeil only played one game with the big club while Danault got 30 (while producing far fewer points in Rockford).
His game seemed to collapse after that season. The scoring numbers dropped dramatically, and he was out of the organization less than a year later. People forget that one of the reasons why Bowman traded Danault was because McNeil was in the system at the time and still considered the better prospect, though not by Joel Quenneville. Clearly, the general manager picked the wrong guy to keep (and did not respect the coach's input).
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Post by nighbor on Jun 6, 2022 7:57:03 GMT -6
I believe the player lost his confidence. After finishing Juniors, McNeil played four full years in Rockford. In year 3 (2015-16) he produced 48 points in 64 games, including 25 goals. The Hawks were auditioning young players that year, but McNeil only played one game with the big club while Danault got 30 (while producing far fewer points in Rockford). His game seemed to collapse after that season. The scoring numbers dropped dramatically, and he was out of the organization less than a year later. People forget that one of the reasons why Bowman traded Danault was because McNeil was in the system at the time and still considered the better prospect, though not by Joel Quenneville. Clearly, the general manager picked the wrong guy to keep (and did not respect the coach's input). Montreal also had a choice of who they wanted and I believe Montreal wanted Danault because he was from Quebec. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 6, 2022 8:27:55 GMT -6
I believe the player lost his confidence. After finishing Juniors, McNeil played four full years in Rockford. In year 3 (2015-16) he produced 48 points in 64 games, including 25 goals. The Hawks were auditioning young players that year, but McNeil only played one game with the big club while Danault got 30 (while producing far fewer points in Rockford). His game seemed to collapse after that season. The scoring numbers dropped dramatically, and he was out of the organization less than a year later. People forget that one of the reasons why Bowman traded Danault was because McNeil was in the system at the time and still considered the better prospect, though not by Joel Quenneville. Clearly, the general manager picked the wrong guy to keep (and did not respect the coach's input). Montreal also had a choice of who they wanted and I believe Montreal wanted Danault because he was from Quebec. There is also a chance that they wanted Danault because he was better. He also had a lot more than a few games under his belt. Also I’m sure the guy who meant nothing in Q talked to his best friend Bergevin who also means nothing and told him how awesome the kid is. This is why it’s great to have ex players involved. They talk and are good friends. They help each other out!!! |
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Post by nighbor on Jun 6, 2022 15:50:26 GMT -6
If that’s the case. Hawks are ahead of the curve. No president, hopefully no GM or coach soon. The Wirtz’s will love that. They’ll save millions! Can’t wait to see this new brand of hockey where coaches or management don’t matter. So, Strome benched himself. Glad he could see the faults in his game!!! If you truly believe players cannot win championships without management and coaches then you should also believe that if one element is missing success is impossible. Since success depends on all three and since Stan was GM and the head of the management team then he had to be part of the reason for the success (cup wins). It just stands to reason. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 6, 2022 16:19:03 GMT -6
Very few things are absolute in life despite those who want to paint in black and white.
When I wrote that the players win the championships, what I meant was that their contributions were key.
This does not mean that Quenneville did not play a role, and that Bowman's participation was completely irrelevant. It is establishing proper balance here.
Too often, people approach their interpretations almost exclusively from the top down, believing those in charge direct the success of a movement or an idea. Most students of history now recognize that legitimate change should be understood from the grassroots, focussing on those doing the actual work and fighting in the trenches.
Bowman and Quenneville benefitted enormously by the quality of talent assembled and developed before they arrived. In the first half decade, they were smart enough to stay out of the way for the most part and lean on the great players they had. Gradually, however, they started to believe in their press clippings. This is when the trouble started.
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Post by mvr on Jun 6, 2022 16:31:36 GMT -6
Is Glen Sather a genius given his record in Edmonton? Or is a mediocre manager, given how he blew through money without any real success in New York?
Or was he extremely lucky in Edmonton only to be exposed without Gretzky and Messier et al while in New York?
How many cups has Lou won post New Jersey? But didn't Scott Niedermeyer win another in Anaheim?
Did Bill Torrey have much success after leaving the Island? Brian Trottier won in Pittsburgh.
Scotty Bowman is rightly considered the best coach of all time. But we all knew the Penguins with Mario, Jagr et al were an elite team before Bowman helped guide them to their second cup. Montreal had a veteran Stanley Cup roster and some young emerging stars before Bowman. Detroit was loaded with talent. Bowman Sr. was smart enough to recognize emerging rosters and accept jobs from teams on the rise. This might also have been Joel Quenneville's greatest ability.
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Post by nighbor on Jun 6, 2022 17:04:18 GMT -6
If that’s the case. Hawks are ahead of the curve. No president, hopefully no GM or coach soon. The Wirtz’s will love that. They’ll save millions! Can’t wait to see this new brand of hockey where coaches or management don’t matter. So, Strome benched himself. Glad he could see the faults in his game!!! When DUMBASS is no longer defense-able,deminishing Joel Quenneville’s HoF accomplishments is all that’s left I guess. I will continue defending anyone being attacked. Pointing out that Q didn't do it ail alone and that he wasn't perfect makes him human and doesn't diminish his accomplishments. Say what you will about Stan; and you will, he is a team builder. Look at all the posters who have teamed up against him. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 6, 2022 17:16:31 GMT -6
He started to get in the way, nighbor.
By about 2016, Bowman was consistently causing more damage (both immediate and long term) than he was helping. His deteriorating relationship with the coach - who was also making more than a few questionable decisions - became a real problem.
I have always had an issue with both of them, despite the three cups. The core roster was exceptional (to my mind, the best in decades).
With smarter roster decisions, 2012, 2014 and 2016 were up for grabs.
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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 6, 2022 17:17:21 GMT -6
When DUMBASS is no longer defense-able,deminishing Joel Quenneville’s HoF accomplishments is all that’s left I guess. Say what you will about Stan; and you will, he is a team builder. Look at all the posters who have teamed up against him.  |
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Post by BigT on Jun 6, 2022 21:08:10 GMT -6
Honestly fellas. Think of what you’re saying. So if a GM puts together a shitty team. Then hires a shitty coach. Is it up to the players to win a championship? If the players aren’t good enough, it doesn’t matter what the coaching or GM does. But when they draft and trade for quality. They’ll win more than lose. It takes a village to build a winner. And it starts at the top. You need top notch management, coaches, scouts, all front office staff, trainers, etc. it takes everyone. Anyone who says different has clearly never been part of a team and clearly don’t understand.
When a team is last place. Is that on the players not trying hard enough? Or os it the wrong mix of players? A GM should have played some decent level of hockey to understand. This is where I don’t like KD being the GM. Does he have any clue what players do off the ice? Most players party pretty hard. Show up to practice hung over and hope to be good for game time. It happens a lot. How does he control their egos? Or does he?
You guys are making this black and white and telling you there’s a massive amount of other colours in there. Gotta stop with this arm chair GM and coaching that it’s easy. Just pick a bunch of guys and if they don’t work out it’s their fault. It starts at the top. I’m gonna post a segment with Brian Burke called “Hey Burkie”. And I’d love for you guys to watch it. Se what a GM does and who they hang out with. Maybe listening to them you guys will understand!!!
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Post by BigT on Jun 6, 2022 21:16:08 GMT -6
Please watch this. And see who Burke went and scouted the Sedins with. Hawks fans will enjoy this. Especially Tallon fans!!! youtu.be/haKNlLw0m5Q |
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Post by vadarx on Jun 7, 2022 0:18:53 GMT -6
When DUMBASS is no longer defense-able,deminishing Joel Quenneville’s HoF accomplishments is all that’s left I guess. I will continue defending anyone being attacked. Pointing out that Q didn't do it ail alone and that he wasn't perfect makes him human and doesn't diminish his accomplishments. Say what you will about Stan; and you will, he is a team builder. Look at all the posters who have teamed up against him. I don't blame you for defending Stan at times here, as I do agree that everyone played their part, regardless of how big or small it may have been... I cannot agree about Stan being a team builder, though. I think he displayed a fair amount of ineptitude in that area starting around 2016... |
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Post by jaty84 on Jun 7, 2022 0:45:31 GMT -6
Please watch this. And see who Burke went and scouted the Sedins with. Hawks fans will enjoy this. Especially Tallon fans!!! youtu.be/haKNlLw0m5QHillarious. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 7, 2022 5:33:17 GMT -6
Please watch this. And see who Burke went and scouted the Sedins with. Hawks fans will enjoy this. Especially Tallon fans!!! youtu.be/haKNlLw0m5QHillarious. Those segments are ridiculously hilarious. There’s like 10 or so of them. Anyways. My point is that most guys in the NHL management ring know each other. GMs do a lot more than most know. But I don’t think Scambo did because A) he didn’t really know anyone or fit in with them. B) I was told by many people who work in the NHL that they didn’t care for him. He was basically a fraud. I’d love to hear what Burkie would say about him. That would be hilarious!!! |
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Post by mvr on Jun 7, 2022 5:55:39 GMT -6
Honestly fellas. Think of what you’re saying. So if a GM puts together a shitty team. Then hires a shitty coach. Is it up to the players to win a championship? If the players aren’t good enough, it doesn’t matter what the coaching or GM does. But when they draft and trade for quality. They’ll win more than lose. It takes a village to build a winner. And it starts at the top. You need top notch management, coaches, scouts, all front office staff, trainers, etc. it takes everyone. Anyone who says different has clearly never been part of a team and clearly don’t understand. When a team is last place. Is that on the players not trying hard enough? Or os it the wrong mix of players? A GM should have played some decent level of hockey to understand. This is where I don’t like KD being the GM. Does he have any clue what players do off the ice? Most players party pretty hard. Show up to practice hung over and hope to be good for game time. It happens a lot. How does he control their egos? Or does he? You guys are making this black and white and telling you there’s a massive amount of other colours in there. Gotta stop with this arm chair GM and coaching that it’s easy. Just pick a bunch of guys and if they don’t work out it’s their fault. It starts at the top. I’m gonna post a segment with Brian Burke called “Hey Burkie”. And I’d love for you guys to watch it. Se what a GM does and who they hang out with. Maybe listening to them you guys will understand!!! What I am saying, Big T, is that managers who assemble great rosters tend to be very lucky. They win lotteries, then assume that their "system" means more than it actually does. All gamblers and bingo players believe they control their fate. But casinos make money. I am not surprised that Brian Burke, just like the old pensioner at the gaming slots, has an inflated sense of how much control he had over his own success. He did win one cup in Anaheim, and a big reason for his success there was signing Pronger and Niedermeyer. But why did he bomb out so badly in Toronto and other places? We all agree that success at the entry draft is by far the single most important component to long-term success. Without a strong homegrown young core, a team is not likely to be competitive. Projecting how 18-year-olds will be at age 24, however, is little more than a guess. Sure, there is some science to it, but not much - considering injuries, addictions, attitude changes, outside influences etc. all factor in. Developing young prospects is also extremely unpredictable. Alexander Daigle was the consensus number one or two prospect in his draft year for good reason. There were no red flags. Unfortunately for Ottawa, the player lost interest. Patrick Stefan had a hip condition. Joe Murphy developed some bad habits outside the game. The list of highly touted failed prospects is endless. Sure, a general manager can control his present roster through trades and signings. But again, he is limited by the cap and by his owner's budget. Many short term gains have long term side effects. Dale Tallon added Brian Campbell at $7.1 M, and the defenceman helped the team win in 2010 but cost the team big from 2012 forwards until Rusty Olesz' contract ended. To my mind, the best general managers are those who recognize their limitations and avoid mistakes. They understand they have little control over their fate, so they spread out the risks, avoid "big name" trades/signings/long term contracts for the most part, trade down to add picks at the draft, and above all, stay out of the limelight. They invest in index funds instead of trendy tech stocks. Similarly, the best coaches are those who recognize their limitations and stay out of the way. When a coach brings in a new "innovative system" or attempts to control his players, the inevitable long-term result is a revolt. Instead of trying to control, the one who last act as father figures and supportive teachers, and they allow all the players do the jobs best suited for their skill-sets. Even then, most coaches have a short shelf-life. Their messages get stale. Pittsburgh, under Sidney Crosby and Gene Malkin, won with two different coaches. Scott Niedermeyer's New Jersey Devils won each of its cups with different coaches. The really successful coaches such as Joel Quenneville tend to keep their egos in check and rely on their star players. They realize that the players themselves are the keys to success. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 7, 2022 6:27:23 GMT -6
MVR. You’re saying what I’m saying. But in a lot more words. It takes everyone. Look at the impact that Colliton and Scambo had on the Hawks this year with benching their best centerman for half a year. The team suffered and their decisions hurt the team. A new coach comes in and soon starts playing him. He goes on a heater the rest of the way.
I do agree that a lot of guys just get in the way. Scambo was one of them. But everyone matters on a team. A chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link!!!
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