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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 9, 2022 6:47:27 GMT -6
they had a nice nesterenko bit at the start. they threw in a todd reirdon rumor for the coaching position. the lion's share of the broadcast was whether or not to change out chelsea dagger as the team's goal song, and that whether each player should pick their own goal song. never heard anything mentioned about d-cat. anyways...i'm not a big hockey podcast guy but this killed 65 minutes nicely. Even if you listen to the first 15-20 mins. They touch on all that trade stuff. Plus they have their moments where if they say the last GMs name, they gotta put a dollar in a jar!!! podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/chgo-chicago-blackhawks-podcast/id1080477414?i=1000565405703the link to the podcast in this post is not the same as the link in your last post. oh well. i got another one to listen to i guess. |
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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 9, 2022 6:49:20 GMT -6
nothing wrong with a bit of respectful discussion about the pros and cons of one stan bowman. but i can say with a fairly high degree of certainty that both sides are dug in that hard that neither will budge. i mean, it's been 225 days since he resigned and the discussion has gone on a long time before that...but you guys just go on keeping on trying. it keeps the post count ticking along here nicely if nothing else. : ) I wonder if I can monetize each comment from Proboads and get a penny for each Bowman comment? I'd have more money than Musk. can i ride your rocket? uhm...maybe i should rephrase that. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 9, 2022 6:59:40 GMT -6
the link to the podcast in this post is not the same as the link in your last post. oh well. i got another one to listen to i guess. It’s a different week. But it’s still good. I suggest when bored listen to Missing Curfew. Not Hawks related. But they talk hockey and you get a renewed appreciation for what goes on in a hockey 🏒 players life. It’s with Scottie Upshall and Shane O’Brien. Used to have Jimmy Hayes on it until his tragic passing. If you listen to the earlier ones, Jimmy is on them!!! podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/missin-curfew/id1526892024?i=1000563980834 |
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Post by jaty84 on Jun 9, 2022 7:00:42 GMT -6
I wonder if I can monetize each comment from Proboads and get a penny for each Bowman comment? I'd have more money than Musk. can i ride your rocket? uhm...maybe i should rephrase that. Must surely be Musk's catch phrase when dating... "Wanna ride my rocket?" |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 9, 2022 7:52:52 GMT -6
A LOT of team were as bad and just stayed bad,being bad is NO guarantee you’ll be good again as us and Leafs fan know/knew for half a decade. We were very fortunate to watch Jonathan Toews, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook, Nik Hjalmarsson, Patrick Kane, Corey Crawford, Patrick Sharp and Hossa and the others emerge all together. How they all got here at the same time to my mind is mostly a matter of luck and circumstance..... not some genius general manager or superior coaching. The press will fawn over the guy in charge, Stan Bowman. Older fans with better memories will point to Tallon, or Smith, or Dudley. Others will recognize Quenneville, Savard, Yawney and even Bob Pulford and Rocky Wirtz. But to my mind, this is largely (though of course, not exclusively) about the players themselves, and especially the core eight. The leaders on the roster gelled those teams together largely despite the noise around them. The suits for the most part watched and took the credit. You make it sound as if teams should just throw darts at dartboards and things just happen and are "a matter of luck and circumstance" and I'll admit it'll take a LOT of luck and circumstance to turn this tragedy around but doesn't explain why many teams remain bad and many remain good. Coaching also matters and it matters a lot,we see NY overachieving this year because they have a HC who knows how to get the most out of his guys and how to counter his opponent's adjustments. We saw a MUCH improved Florida club disappear this year against the same cup winner they battled as if their lives depended on winning last year and I've contemplated why. The difference I see is behind the bench. |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 9, 2022 8:16:52 GMT -6
My fear is that Dach could be another McNeil type. I was worried from the vet go with him as he didn’t have much experience playing hockey in many situations. Yet he gets strewn into an NHL slot when clearly not ready. Bo Byram looking pretty good with the Avs up 3-0 in the Conference finals. He may not be Makar type, but he’s definitely a solid dman with a lot of upside. The only bright spot is that Scambo didn’t take Turcotte. And that’s a very small upside!!! Turcotte's 21,not everybody rushes their young centers,LA's REAL deep at the position with Kopitar 6'3" 225,Kempe 6'2" 200,Danault 6'1' 200,Anthanasiou 6'2" 190 and the bigger kid Byfield is getting his shot. Turcotte is the least developed out of 19's top ten picks at this point but we've seen a number of forwards breakthrough in their 20's last year.he also hasn't had an undeserved 152 NHL starts to prove himself,just 8 so far. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 9, 2022 8:29:20 GMT -6
My fear is that Dach could be another McNeil type. I was worried from the vet go with him as he didn’t have much experience playing hockey in many situations. Yet he gets strewn into an NHL slot when clearly not ready. Bo Byram looking pretty good with the Avs up 3-0 in the Conference finals. He may not be Makar type, but he’s definitely a solid dman with a lot of upside. The only bright spot is that Scambo didn’t take Turcotte. And that’s a very small upside!!! Turcotte's 21,not everybody rushes their young centers,LA's REAL deep at the position with Kopitar 6'3" 225,Kempe 6'2" 200,Danault 6'1' 200,Anthanasiou 6'2" 190 and the bigger kid Byfield is getting his shot. Turcotte is the least developed out of 19's top ten picks at this point but we've seen a number of forwards breakthrough in their 20's last year.he also hasn't had an undeserved 152 NHL starts to prove himself,just 8 so far. Maybe he pans out. Here’s a look at his db. He’s ok for his first two years in the farm. I’m not sure he’s the top end scorer many thought he’d be. www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=209490If he could be had for the right price, I’d take a flier on him. I just wouldn’t use a 3rd overall on him or give up a lot for him. I believe the Kings will be using him as trade bait. They’ve got a lot more kids coming, including Brandt Clarke (I’d love to have him). Maybe a trade could benefit both teams here!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 9, 2022 8:39:38 GMT -6
When DUMBASS is no longer defense-able,deminishing Joel Quenneville’s HoF accomplishments is all that’s left I guess. I will continue defending anyone being attacked. Pointing out that Q didn't do it ail alone and that he wasn't perfect makes him human and doesn't diminish his accomplishments. Say what you will about Stan; and you will, he is a team builder. Look at all the posters who have teamed up against him. I don't believe I ever said Q did it all himself or was perfect,I don't think I've said anything close. What I've said is Q routinely outcoached his opponents in PO series and held his many great players together when they weren't great and trailed in series. He's been successful EVERYWHERE he's been and has a record that'll get him into the HoF........the scandal might unfairly cost him a first ballot enshrinement but he'll get in. You say you don't diminish his accomplishments yet you've said the team should have won more the three cups........how many more do they win if the team didn't have to be gutted in the summer of 2010.......something Scotty Bowman never experienced in his pre-cap career. The Wings not only kept their best players,they added the best available at the TDL back in that era also. DUMBASS' scorn is well earned,the team finds itself in an awful position and the tragic summer of 19 will haunt it for a decade or more. |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 9, 2022 8:44:56 GMT -6
Independent opinion. Ryan Szporer in an artical for THW dated December 31, 2019 entitled NHL's Top 5 General Managers of the Decade he has Stan Bowman at #2. The last sentence contains the words and I quote "Bowman is a great GM". Do you believe his services will be in demand by many NHL teams if reinstated this summer? |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 9, 2022 8:57:00 GMT -6
nothing wrong with a bit of respectful discussion about the pros and cons of one stan bowman. but i can say with a fairly high degree of certainty that both sides are dug in that hard that neither will budge. i mean, it's been 225 days since he resigned and the discussion has gone on a long time before that...but you guys just go on keeping on trying. it keeps the post count ticking along here nicely if nothing else. : ) Honestly, I don't think the discussion will end for quite some time. We still discuss the damage $Bill and Pullford did. Some also discuss Pully's positives. So far Davidson has just scuffed the surface of the team, he's less than a year into things. He's had no drafts. The book on what he'll actually do has yet to be written and the moves he's done so far are always going to be compared to what Stan did--especially if it's a Stan player that is moved as well. I think this will go on until Davidson has a de facto stamp on the team, and even then for positive and negative the comparisons to Bowman will be there both past and future. Irrespective of the actual amount of hand Stan had in matters relating to the cups, he was the GM during the cup run which makes him a focal point of 'hawks discussion. He was also the guy present for the collapse after the cup runs, which also makes him a focal point. I honestly think he might be a bigger point moving forward than Smith and Tallon because of that--and might only stop disappearing from discourse as fans who remember his regime die off. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 9, 2022 9:03:03 GMT -6
Independent opinion. Ryan Szporer in an artical for THW dated December 31, 2019 entitled NHL's Top 5 General Managers of the Decade he has Stan Bowman at #2. The last sentence contains the words and I quote "Bowman is a great GM". Do you believe his services will be in demand by many NHL teams if reinstated this summer? I seriously doubt his services will be reinstated this summer in this political climate. The NHL will take a PR hit harder than Brian Campbell's hit on RJ umberger. But I think your point stands; I don't know how in-demand Stan would be considering how the fall from 2015 precipitated. As a thought exercise: Assume 5 years down the road guys like he and Q are allowed back in the NHL--about 2027-ish. I personally think Stan's perception in the league will depend on how Davidson has fared. If Davidson has the 'hawks floundering Stan might be in some demand because the perception would be that that rot in the organization was more than just Stan. If Davidscon has turn the team around--somewhat or completely, I think Stan will not be in demand because the optics of the situation will be as some people see it now: Stan inherited a cup core and once they started to age out he didn't do anything to stop the team from completely crashing and burning. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 9, 2022 10:14:06 GMT -6
Little Bowman for sure will get another chance somewhere.
We all saw the carnage here. But outsiders will look at the three cups and point to the guy in charge as some genius pulling the right marionette strings.
Most way overestimate the role of a leader in providing agency. When the economy is good, voters praise the leader in charge for creating that environment. When it collapses, the guy holding the keys gets blamed. Few pay real attention to long term causes and consequences mostly independent of political decisions.
Bowman was the US Olympic General Manager before his fall from grace for a reason. He is respected by many - however misguided that perception might be.
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Post by hsbob on Jun 9, 2022 10:52:29 GMT -6
Do you believe his services will be in demand by many NHL teams if reinstated this summer? I seriously doubt his services will be reinstated this summer in this political climate. The NHL will take a PR hit harder than Brian Campbell's hit on RJ umberger. But I think your point stands; I don't know how in-demand Stan would be considering how the fall from 2015 precipitated. As a thought exercise: Assume 5 years down the road guys like he and Q are allowed back in the NHL--about 2027-ish. I personally think Stan's perception in the league will depend on how Davidson has fared. If Davidson has the 'hawks floundering Stan might be in some demand because the perception would be that that rot in the organization was more than just Stan. If Davidscon has turn the team around--somewhat or completely, I think Stan will not be in demand because the optics of the situation will be as some people see it now: Stan inherited a cup core and once they started to age out he didn't do anything to stop the team from completely crashing and burning. You're saying Q and SB will be kept out of the game for five years? For following orders? Q didn't molest anybody. Q had no prior knowledge of the incident before the meeting. The victim didn't report it to his HC and then have his HC tell him it was his fault like the mental coach did. This was also not a decades long,ongoing US gymnastics type situation where top people knew and allowed it to continue. The victim got his payday and has been out of the public realm most likely due to a NDA.......I believe the league can move on from this 12 year old scandal now. |
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Post by vadarx on Jun 9, 2022 12:33:31 GMT -6
Little Bowman for sure will get another chance somewhere. We all saw the carnage here. But outsiders will look at the three cups and point to the guy in charge as some genius pulling the right marionette strings. Most way overestimate the role of a leader in providing agency. When the economy is good, voters praise the leader in charge for creating that environment. When it collapses, the guy holding the keys gets blamed. Few pay real attention to long term causes and consequences mostly independent of political decisions. Bowman was the US Olympic General Manager before his fall from grace for a reason. He is respected by many - however misguided that perception might be. yeah, if Ken Holland is still a GM in the league, Bowman will probably get another chance. maybe he will get lucky and have the best player in the world on his roster too, so it at least kind of looks like he knows what he is doing... |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 9, 2022 13:21:59 GMT -6
I seriously doubt his services will be reinstated this summer in this political climate. The NHL will take a PR hit harder than Brian Campbell's hit on RJ umberger. But I think your point stands; I don't know how in-demand Stan would be considering how the fall from 2015 precipitated. As a thought exercise: Assume 5 years down the road guys like he and Q are allowed back in the NHL--about 2027-ish. I personally think Stan's perception in the league will depend on how Davidson has fared. If Davidson has the 'hawks floundering Stan might be in some demand because the perception would be that that rot in the organization was more than just Stan. If Davidscon has turn the team around--somewhat or completely, I think Stan will not be in demand because the optics of the situation will be as some people see it now: Stan inherited a cup core and once they started to age out he didn't do anything to stop the team from completely crashing and burning. You're saying Q and SB will be kept out of the game for five years? For following orders? Q didn't molest anybody. Q had no prior knowledge of the incident before the meeting. The victim didn't report it to his HC and then have his HC tell him it was his fault like the mental coach did. This was also not a decades lond,ongoing US gymnastics type situation where top people knew and allowed it to continue. The victim got his payday and has been out of the public realm most likely due to a NDA.......I believe the league can move on from this 12 year old scandal now. Please look up what a thought exercise is. I made no assertation about when I felt like they would be allowed back in. I pulled a number out for the point of the discussion. The rest we've been over: As it stands neither of then can take another NHL job until cleared by Bettman and the NHL; I seriously doubt he'd going to do that after only a year--especially with another sex scandal involving some current NHL players possibly looming. The last thing the NHL wants is to be perceived publicly as an organization that condones the cover up of a sexual assault--alleged or not. |
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Post by nighbor on Jun 9, 2022 13:50:37 GMT -6
I will continue defending anyone being attacked. Pointing out that Q didn't do it ail alone and that he wasn't perfect makes him human and doesn't diminish his accomplishments. Say what you will about Stan; and you will, he is a team builder. Look at all the posters who have teamed up against him. I don't believe I ever said Q did it all himself or was perfect,I don't think I've said anything close. What I've said is Q routinely outcoached his opponents in PO series and held his many great players together when they weren't great and trailed in series. He's been successful EVERYWHERE he's been and has a record that'll get him into the HoF........the scandal might unfairly cost him a first ballot enshrinement but he'll get in. You say you don't diminish his accomplishments yet you've said the team should have won more the three cups........how many more do they win if the team didn't have to be gutted in the summer of 2010.......something Scotty Bowman never experienced in his pre-cap career. The Wings not only kept their best players,they added the best available at the TDL back in that era also. DUMBASS' scorn is well earned,the team finds itself in an awful position and the tragic summer of 19 will haunt it for a decade or more. More often than not Q coached teams were not ready to play playoff hockey. Whether in St Louis Colorado Chicaga or Florida the teams started off slowly. Even the years we won we were almost eliminated in the 1st round. After games early in the playoffs Q would always say that they were not playing the right way. If not why not? Once more you diminish the players and make Q out to be the hero. It was the leadership of the core players who led the way and the heroic effort of the players especially in the 2015 WCF. Without the cap we would have won maybe three more. The team was not gutted in the summer of 2010. We lost valuable support players especially Byfluglien but so did the other teams. I believe Detroit is a bad example as we have achieved more than them since their cup runs in 08 and 09 and still not close to the mountain top. Stan also kept his best players in the cup years. Year after year Stan tried to fill Q's shopping list at the TDL. In 2013 and again in 2016 Stan landed the best player available at the TDL. We won with Vermette and lost with Ladd. Player shopping is expensive and Stan had to mortgage the future for the present. The mortgage is due. It hurts now but what a ride. |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 10, 2022 7:44:54 GMT -6
I don't believe I ever said Q did it all himself or was perfect,I don't think I've said anything close. What I've said is Q routinely outcoached his opponents in PO series and held his many great players together when they weren't great and trailed in series. He's been successful EVERYWHERE he's been and has a record that'll get him into the HoF........the scandal might unfairly cost him a first ballot enshrinement but he'll get in. You say you don't diminish his accomplishments yet you've said the team should have won more the three cups........how many more do they win if the team didn't have to be gutted in the summer of 2010.......something Scotty Bowman never experienced in his pre-cap career. The Wings not only kept their best players,they added the best available at the TDL back in that era also. DUMBASS' scorn is well earned,the team finds itself in an awful position and the tragic summer of 19 will haunt it for a decade or more. More often than not Q coached teams were not ready to play playoff hockey. Whether in St Louis Colorado Chicaga or Florida the teams started off slowly. Even the years we won we were almost eliminated in the 1st round. After games early in the playoffs Q would always say that they were not playing the right way. If not why not? Once more you diminish the players and make Q out to be the hero. It was the leadership of the core players who led the way and the heroic effort of the players especially in the 2015 WCF. Without the cap we would have won maybe three more. The team was not gutted in the summer of 2010. We lost valuable support players especially Byfluglien but so did the other teams. I believe Detroit is a bad example as we have achieved more than them since their cup runs in 08 and 09 and still not close to the mountain top. Stan also kept his best players in the cup years. Year after year Stan tried to fill Q's shopping list at the TDL. In 2013 and again in 2016 Stan landed the best player available at the TDL. We won with Vermette and lost with Ladd. Player shopping is expensive and Stan had to mortgage the future for the present. The mortgage is due. It hurts now but what a ride. Pointing out the fact that Q outcoached his PO opponents with regularity isn't diminishing the players,it's just an observation and a well accepted truth. Why great,champion players start out slow in first round series,or any series for that matter can happen for many reasons,fatigue from another long successful year,nagging injuries,matchups and a red hot GT or an opponent just getting healthy late in the season............it was GREAT having a HC who could keep guys calm,focused and also make the right adjustments. Three different,very good HC's were unable to extend Joel Quennevile's Black Hawks in three different SCF's. Chicago lost ten players from their roster in the summer of '10' and it's affect was brutal,the team still had it's great core but was just a first round out the next two years. The Detroit of the Scotty Bowman,keep everybody and get the best available at the TDL too because you could every year era is the example I intended it to be. The ride didn't have to become a 30 car/truck pile-up with burning bodied everywhere either.......the org's a MESS due to DUMBASS! And that's from a guy who'd argue with Big-T and others defending the GM's performance until 4-5 years ago,his performance since the summer of '19' has been especially egregious. Traded for a 4M D-man and retained $$$ to move him the following year.........actually acquired a problematic deal and received zero sweetener Traded for a 3.5M forward to play at Rockford? Who TF does that? Trade a 20yro starting D-man for a F'ing BUM! ACTUALLY ACQUIRED THESE PLAYERS! Traded for and took on a badly damaged Shaw's entire deal and instead of getting sweetener.........gave up a 2nd&3rd. The player made his concussion struggles public in an article I posted on the old boards.....before the trade! Do I get credit for some king of insider's scoop?LOL......absolutely not because everybody knew it.....well,almost everybody. Canes wanted out of deHAAN-job's contract real bad but did we get an ounce of sweetener this time..........NOPE.....threw in Forsling and Forsberg. The team's best player assessment guy was fired the prior November and player assessment went to shit. I say that because a 20yro D-man who made his HoF HC 'Giddy' and is now a 20+ minute,first pair guy @22 was traded for a loser. Left to his own deviced,DUMBASS squandered 20 million bucks away most of the team's future.......I guess he had some help from Potter too........a TERRIBLE hire! |
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Post by Nikos on Jun 10, 2022 8:41:10 GMT -6
More often than not Q coached teams were not ready to play playoff hockey. Whether in St Louis Colorado Chicaga or Florida the teams started off slowly. Even the years we won we were almost eliminated in the 1st round. After games early in the playoffs Q would always say that they were not playing the right way. If not why not? Once more you diminish the players and make Q out to be the hero. It was the leadership of the core players who led the way and the heroic effort of the players especially in the 2015 WCF. Without the cap we would have won maybe three more. The team was not gutted in the summer of 2010. We lost valuable support players especially Byfluglien but so did the other teams. I believe Detroit is a bad example as we have achieved more than them since their cup runs in 08 and 09 and still not close to the mountain top. Stan also kept his best players in the cup years. Year after year Stan tried to fill Q's shopping list at the TDL. In 2013 and again in 2016 Stan landed the best player available at the TDL. We won with Vermette and lost with Ladd. Player shopping is expensive and Stan had to mortgage the future for the present. The mortgage is due. It hurts now but what a ride. Pointing out the fact that Q outcoached his PO opponents with regularity isn't diminishing the players,it's just an observation and a well accepted truth. Why great,champion players start out slow in first round series,or any series for that matter can happen for many reasons,fatigue from another long successful year,nagging injuries,matchups and a red hot GT or an opponent just getting healthy late in the season............it was GREAT having a HC who could keep guys calm,focused and also make the right adjustments. Three different,very good HC's were unable to extend Joel Quennevile's Black Hawks in three different SCF's. Chicago lost ten players from their roster in the summer of '10' and it's affect was brutal,the team still had it's great core but was just a first round out the next two years. The Detroit of the Scotty Bowman,keep everybody and get the best available at the TDL too because you could every year era is the example I intended it to be. The ride didn't have to become a 30 car/truck pile-up with burning bodied everywhere either.......the org's a MESS due to DUMBASS! And that's from a guy who'd argue with Big-T and others defending the GM's performance until 4-5 years ago,his performance since the summer of '19' has been especially egregious. Traded for a 4M D-man and retained $$$ to move him the following year.........actually acquired a problematic deal and received zero sweetener Traded for a 3.5M forward to play at Rockford? Who TF does that? Trade a 20yro starting D-man for a F'ing BUM! ACTUALLY ACQUIRED THESE PLAYERS! Traded for and took on a badly damaged Shaw's entire deal and instead of getting sweetener.........gave up a 2nd&3rd. The player made his concussion struggles public in an article I posted on the old boards.....before the trade! Do I get credit for some king of insider's scoop?LOL......absolutely not because everybody knew it.....well,almost everybody. Canes wanted out of deHAAN-job's contract real bad but did we get an ounce of sweetener this time..........NOPE.....threw in Forsling and Forsberg. The team's best player assessment guy was fired the prior November and player assessment went to shit. I say that because a 20yro D-man who made his HoF HC 'Giddy' and is now a 20+ minute,first pair guy @22 was traded for a loser. Left to his own deviced,DUMBASS squandered 20 million bucks away most of the team's future.......I guess he had some help from Potter too........a TERRIBLE hire! Sure, as Bob pointed out teams start off slow for many reasons and to pin that on Q is not really totally fair. Should Q done better job, possibly, but remember they pay your opponent to play and besides playing tough series helps you in the long run. Look at the Rangers they were series favorites by most accounts down 3-1 to the Pens and their 3-string goalie and now giving the 2-time champs all they can handle., Is Gallant a bad coach? were his teams not ready? clearly Shesterkin did not play well early and it took him a few games to get his game back. Does it really matter how you got there? The record book and 20-30 years from now nobody is going to remember the Hawks struggle in the earlier rounds, it is going to say Stanley cup champion 2010, 2013 & 2015. I have provided this stat before, in the 3 SCF Q's record in games 4,5 & 6 when it really matters, intensity up, pressure building, adjustments being made on both sides is 8-1. In game 5 of the 2010 SCF Q put big Buff back on with 19 & 88 and Big Buff obliterated Mr. Pronger on one hit and for the game he was a minus 5. Game, set and Stanley cup champions thank you. |
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Post by nighbor on Jun 10, 2022 10:28:03 GMT -6
More often than not Q coached teams were not ready to play playoff hockey. Whether in St Louis Colorado Chicaga or Florida the teams started off slowly. Even the years we won we were almost eliminated in the 1st round. After games early in the playoffs Q would always say that they were not playing the right way. If not why not? Once more you diminish the players and make Q out to be the hero. It was the leadership of the core players who led the way and the heroic effort of the players especially in the 2015 WCF. Without the cap we would have won maybe three more. The team was not gutted in the summer of 2010. We lost valuable support players especially Byfluglien but so did the other teams. I believe Detroit is a bad example as we have achieved more than them since their cup runs in 08 and 09 and still not close to the mountain top. Stan also kept his best players in the cup years. Year after year Stan tried to fill Q's shopping list at the TDL. In 2013 and again in 2016 Stan landed the best player available at the TDL. We won with Vermette and lost with Ladd. Player shopping is expensive and Stan had to mortgage the future for the present. The mortgage is due. It hurts now but what a ride. Pointing out the fact that Q outcoached his PO opponents with regularity isn't diminishing the players,it's just an observation and a well accepted truth. Why great,champion players start out slow in first round series,or any series for that matter can happen for many reasons,fatigue from another long successful year,nagging injuries,matchups and a red hot GT or an opponent just getting healthy late in the season............it was GREAT having a HC who could keep guys calm,focused and also make the right adjustments. Three different,very good HC's were unable to extend Joel Quennevile's Black Hawks in three different SCF's. Chicago lost ten players from their roster in the summer of '10' and it's affect was brutal,the team still had it's great core but was just a first round out the next two years. The Detroit of the Scotty Bowman,keep everybody and get the best available at the TDL too because you could every year era is the example I intended it to be. The ride didn't have to become a 30 car/truck pile-up with burning bodied everywhere either.......the org's a MESS due to DUMBASS! And that's from a guy who'd argue with Big-T and others defending the GM's performance until 4-5 years ago,his performance since the summer of '19' has been especially egregious. Traded for a 4M D-man and retained $$$ to move him the following year.........actually acquired a problematic deal and received zero sweetener Traded for a 3.5M forward to play at Rockford? Who TF does that? Trade a 20yro starting D-man for a F'ing BUM! ACTUALLY ACQUIRED THESE PLAYERS! Traded for and took on a badly damaged Shaw's entire deal and instead of getting sweetener.........gave up a 2nd&3rd. The player made his concussion struggles public in an article I posted on the old boards.....before the trade! Do I get credit for some king of insider's scoop?LOL......absolutely not because everybody knew it.....well,almost everybody. Canes wanted out of deHAAN-job's contract real bad but did we get an ounce of sweetener this time..........NOPE.....threw in Forsling and Forsberg. The team's best player assessment guy was fired the prior November and player assessment went to shit. I say that because a 20yro D-man who made his HoF HC 'Giddy' and is now a 20+ minute,first pair guy @22 was traded for a loser. Left to his own deviced,DUMBASS squandered 20 million bucks away most of the team's future.......I guess he had some help from Potter too........a TERRIBLE hire! In the other post you said something like Q kept the great players together when the great players were not playing great. It was Seabrook who rushed to the penalty box when the captain was having a melt down in the Detroit series. I am sure there are many behind the scene things the leadership group did to keep the players together while the coach strategized. Ten players would have been half the roster. They still made the playoffs the next two seasons and won the third year. Stan must have have done something right. We got Shaw for a 3rd and we swapped 2nds. No Shaw no DeBrincat. The trade doesn't look so bad now does it. It doesn't make it right but the rest of your points can be summed up in one word 'survival'. The average tenure of a GM is 5.5 years and by the start of the '19 season Stan almost doubled that. The tendency of GM's who fear for their job is to shift into 'win now mode'. |
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Post by nighbor on Jun 10, 2022 10:38:43 GMT -6
Pointing out the fact that Q outcoached his PO opponents with regularity isn't diminishing the players,it's just an observation and a well accepted truth. Why great,champion players start out slow in first round series,or any series for that matter can happen for many reasons,fatigue from another long successful year,nagging injuries,matchups and a red hot GT or an opponent just getting healthy late in the season............it was GREAT having a HC who could keep guys calm,focused and also make the right adjustments. Three different,very good HC's were unable to extend Joel Quennevile's Black Hawks in three different SCF's. Chicago lost ten players from their roster in the summer of '10' and it's affect was brutal,the team still had it's great core but was just a first round out the next two years. The Detroit of the Scotty Bowman,keep everybody and get the best available at the TDL too because you could every year era is the example I intended it to be. The ride didn't have to become a 30 car/truck pile-up with burning bodied everywhere either.......the org's a MESS due to DUMBASS! And that's from a guy who'd argue with Big-T and others defending the GM's performance until 4-5 years ago,his performance since the summer of '19' has been especially egregious. Traded for a 4M D-man and retained $$$ to move him the following year.........actually acquired a problematic deal and received zero sweetener Traded for a 3.5M forward to play at Rockford? Who TF does that? Trade a 20yro starting D-man for a F'ing BUM! ACTUALLY ACQUIRED THESE PLAYERS! Traded for and took on a badly damaged Shaw's entire deal and instead of getting sweetener.........gave up a 2nd&3rd. The player made his concussion struggles public in an article I posted on the old boards.....before the trade! Do I get credit for some king of insider's scoop?LOL......absolutely not because everybody knew it.....well,almost everybody. Canes wanted out of deHAAN-job's contract real bad but did we get an ounce of sweetener this time..........NOPE.....threw in Forsling and Forsberg. The team's best player assessment guy was fired the prior November and player assessment went to shit. I say that because a 20yro D-man who made his HoF HC 'Giddy' and is now a 20+ minute,first pair guy @22 was traded for a loser. Left to his own deviced,DUMBASS squandered 20 million bucks away most of the team's future.......I guess he had some help from Potter too........a TERRIBLE hire! Sure, as Bob pointed out teams start off slow for many reasons and to pin that on Q is not really totally fair. Should Q done better job, possibly, but remember they pay your opponent to play and besides playing tough series helps you in the long run. Look at the Rangers they were series favorites by most accounts down 3-1 to the Pens and their 3-string goalie and now giving the 2-time champs all they can handle., Is Gallant a bad coach? were his teams not ready? clearly Shesterkin did not play well early and it took him a few games to get his game back. Does it really matter how you got there? The record book and 20-30 years from now nobody is going to remember the Hawks struggle in the earlier rounds, it is going to say Stanley cup champion 2010, 2013 & 2015. I have provided this stat before, in the 3 SCF Q's record in games 4,5 & 6 when it really matters, intensity up, pressure building, adjustments being made on both sides is 8-1. In game 5 of the 2010 SCF Q put big Buff back on with 19 & 88 and Big Buff obliterated Mr. Pronger on one hit and for the game he was a minus 5. Game, set and Stanley cup champions thank you. The cream rises to the top. In those 9 games Q's stats were 0 goals 0 assists. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 10, 2022 11:42:59 GMT -6
I largely hold Bowman responsible for those slow series starts.
The issue was not lack of preparation. It was rather a lack of physicality.
The coach always dressed his physical players in game one of every series - to set the tone.
Bowman, however, refused to spend any money on physical players with size.
The consequence was that Quenneville dressed the players he had - Tootoo, Scott, Mashinter, Bollig etc - none of whom were capable of playoff hockey.
The coach wanted physical guys like Eager, Brouwer, Bickell, Byfuglien. Bowman ignored him and traded for Dale Weise, Thomas Fleischmann, Peter Regin, Pierre Mark Bouchard, David Rundblad and Jiri Sekak.
The coach's consequent roster decisions were very predictable to anyone paying attention. He used what he had, and then when the team fell behind (inevitably), he shortened his bench and leaned on his stars.
The strategy worked in 2013 and 2015 but failed in 2014 and 2016.
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Post by Nikos on Jun 10, 2022 14:33:38 GMT -6
Sure, as Bob pointed out teams start off slow for many reasons and to pin that on Q is not really totally fair. Should Q done better job, possibly, but remember they pay your opponent to play and besides playing tough series helps you in the long run. Look at the Rangers they were series favorites by most accounts down 3-1 to the Pens and their 3-string goalie and now giving the 2-time champs all they can handle., Is Gallant a bad coach? were his teams not ready? clearly Shesterkin did not play well early and it took him a few games to get his game back. Does it really matter how you got there? The record book and 20-30 years from now nobody is going to remember the Hawks struggle in the earlier rounds, it is going to say Stanley cup champion 2010, 2013 & 2015. I have provided this stat before, in the 3 SCF Q's record in games 4,5 & 6 when it really matters, intensity up, pressure building, adjustments being made on both sides is 8-1. In game 5 of the 2010 SCF Q put big Buff back on with 19 & 88 and Big Buff obliterated Mr. Pronger on one hit and for the game he was a minus 5. Game, set and Stanley cup champions thank you. The cream rises to the top. In those 9 games Q's stats were 0 goals 0 assists. My main point was to provide potential reasons to teams having a slow starts, provided the Rangers as example in this years playoff and they have a great coach. At the end of the day does it really matter who was MORE responsible (Q, Bowman, The Players)? Hey folks we won three cups in 6 years, lets enjoy them, not really sure when we are going to see another anytime soon. I am relatively new to this board, but from what I see and read most here do give some credit to Bowman for his role in the 3 cups. The main issue with Bowman was after the 2016 game 7 loss to the Blues and the horrible series in 2017 versus the Preds and his moves and actions that followed. He seemed to have new strategy each year and really no long-term plan to sustain success and take advantage of 19 & 88 with the cup window still open IMO. Hard to find many positives on his resume/watch after 2017. Is it harder in a cap world? HELL YES. It seems (could be wrong though) you want to give little to no credit to Q and blame him for slow starts and not winning more cups. Q is a hall a fame coach, a players coach and one that had great feel for the game and routinely out coach his peers most of the time. Did he have faults, make mistakes, sure he did. The good thing we can all sit back and offer our opinion, just need to be fair. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 14, 2022 6:23:24 GMT -6
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Post by Nikos on Jun 14, 2022 7:42:50 GMT -6
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 14, 2022 8:33:19 GMT -6
Yup, Bowman was a horrible GM, so many times he should've got more. The person who wrote this said Glendening didn't pan out in Chicago, true cause he never played in Chicago, it was Clendening. |
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Post by Nikos on Jun 14, 2022 9:10:46 GMT -6
I believe somehow the 118 pick in 2014 was traded to Rangers who took Shesterkin. Not sure I agree with I just wanted to point out Bowman traded the pick away that turned into a solid goaltender who is still relatively young. I would say he is little better than solid. Even if Bowman kept the 118 pick who knows who he would have selected. Just interesting when you trade some of these middle round picks and never know who it could turn out to be. 18) 02/06/2014
Chicago Acquires: Petter Regin and Pierre-Marc Bouchard
Islanders Acquires: 2014 fourth-round pick #118 overall (Igor Shesterkin)
Grade: C-
I just wanted to point out Bowman traded the pick away that turned into a solid goaltender who is still relatively young. Something Chicago was missing till they drafted Commesso. |
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Post by steamer on Jun 14, 2022 9:28:44 GMT -6
Nice summary overall! I don't agree with some of the conclusions - one was getting Stahlberg for Versteeg which he gave pretty good marks to. Versteeg sometimes tried to handle the puck too much but all Stahlberg had was straight line speed. He rarely finished his breakaways and was one of the more disappointing players I always thought.
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Post by BigT on Jun 14, 2022 10:30:00 GMT -6
This is why I find it hard to give him credit for any of the success.
Look how Tampa found a Hagel, Nick Paul, Rutta, McDonaugh. Free agents are Maroon, Bogosian. They understand that they have a generational team and surrounded their stars with a solid support staff. The best move The Garbage man made was for Oduya. And if paying a normal price for a #4 dman is the greatest thing, then the team will be doomed.
Many thought that getting Handzus was a solid move. It was a used bandaid. I feel he could’ve found a decent player that could’ve been here longer term. He could’ve drafted and developed a few players too.
This is what happens when nepotism reads its ugly head. He had no business being in there!!!
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Post by nighbor on Jun 14, 2022 15:14:07 GMT -6
This is why I find it hard to give him credit for any of the success. Look how Tampa found a Hagel, Nick Paul, Rutta, McDonaugh. Free agents are Maroon, Bogosian. They understand that they have a generational team and surrounded their stars with a solid support staff. The best move The Garbage man made was for Oduya. And if paying a normal price for a #4 dman is the greatest thing, then the team will be doomed. Many thought that getting Handzus was a solid move. It was a used bandaid. I feel he could’ve found a decent player that could’ve been here longer term. He could’ve drafted and developed a few players too. This is what happens when nepotism reads its ugly head. He had no business being in there!!! Scotty Bowman an executive of Detroit a flerce competitor of the Blackhawks had no influence over Mike Smith and Stan Bowman is not related to Mike Smith so no nepotism. Now Stan a valued employee since 2000 had influence and his father started in 2008 now that is nepotism. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 14, 2022 15:57:45 GMT -6
This is why I find it hard to give him credit for any of the success. Look how Tampa found a Hagel, Nick Paul, Rutta, McDonaugh. Free agents are Maroon, Bogosian. They understand that they have a generational team and surrounded their stars with a solid support staff. The best move The Garbage man made was for Oduya. And if paying a normal price for a #4 dman is the greatest thing, then the team will be doomed. Many thought that getting Handzus was a solid move. It was a used bandaid. I feel he could’ve found a decent player that could’ve been here longer term. He could’ve drafted and developed a few players too. This is what happens when nepotism reads its ugly head. He had no business being in there!!! Scotty Bowman an executive of Detroit a flerce competitor of the Blackhawks had no influence over Mike Smith and Stan Bowman is not related to Mike Smith so no nepotism. Now Stan a valued employee since 2000 had influence and his father started in 2008 now that is nepotism. I gotta give you some credit here. I know we go back and forth about the last guy. But you’ve been ever so loyal to him. You’ve stayed your ground and haven’t wavered. Even when facts and the proof are being presented. You just don’t give a fugazi and keep on trucking. Good for you!!! |
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