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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 12:24:18 GMT -6
figured I'd weigh in here and just say I'm happy they are taking a strong stance on not changing it
The Redskins is a literal racist term, the Indians/Chiefs/Braves better but a little gray area there
Blackhawks is a symbol/name of respect and a tribute
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Post by acesandeights on Jul 18, 2020 12:45:26 GMT -6
Maybe but probably not, I was born in Cornerbrook Newfoundland, like Keith Brown š, but we moved to Fort McMurray when I was 8mnths old. I've only seen some Telus Cups on TV and they're fun to watch, never seen Mitchell but if he stood out at 15 playing Midget AAA and you think he's a fantastic talent, sounds good to me. He'll look good with the Hawks logo on, and not an indian head, natives aren't from India lol I thought he was our best pick from 2017. Heās got talent for sure. If it parlays to the NHL, itāll be great. My only concern is that he stayed the extra year in college which can really damper his development. I really believe a year or two in the farm would have been excellent for him. Very very very rarely do we see 21 or 22 year olds make the jump from college to NHL. At that age they need to play against top competition and not stay playing against worse and worse competition. And before someone jumps down my throat about me not liking the NCAA route. What that means is simply this. The competition gets worse in the NCAA as you get older. As you were the top young talent, and now youāre the elder top talent. So the league didnāt get tougher for you, it plateauād and now you didnāt develop further like you would have against better competition in the AHL. I hope heās just that good And heās an exception to the rule. I believe he could be!!! I see your thinking on this. Facing mostly younger guys regularly isn't really going to advance an older player's game. Interestingly, the inverse is true; a freshman starting in college will face mostly players 1-3 years older on a regular basis so he will be forced to adapt and elevate his game. Just ask Turcotte.  Mitchell did increase his goals from 6 to 10 and his a's by one this past season so hopefully he can be a good NHL'er. I would be curious what kind of expectations the coaches have for Mitchell this upcoming season. Is there even room for him with no one leaving? |
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Post by BigT on Jul 18, 2020 13:42:45 GMT -6
I thought he was our best pick from 2017. Heās got talent for sure. If it parlays to the NHL, itāll be great. My only concern is that he stayed the extra year in college which can really damper his development. I really believe a year or two in the farm would have been excellent for him. Very very very rarely do we see 21 or 22 year olds make the jump from college to NHL. At that age they need to play against top competition and not stay playing against worse and worse competition. And before someone jumps down my throat about me not liking the NCAA route. What that means is simply this. The competition gets worse in the NCAA as you get older. As you were the top young talent, and now youāre the elder top talent. So the league didnāt get tougher for you, it plateauād and now you didnāt develop further like you would have against better competition in the AHL. I hope heās just that good And heās an exception to the rule. I believe he could be!!! I see your thinking on this. Facing mostly younger guys regularly isn't really going to advance an older player's game. Interestingly, the inverse is true; a freshman starting in college will face mostly players 1-3 years older on a regular basis so he will be forced to adapt and elevate his game. Just ask Turcotte.Ā Ā Mitchell did increase his goals from 6 to 10 and his a's by one this past season so hopefully he can be a good NHL'er.Ā I would be curious what kind of expectations the coaches have for Mitchell this upcoming season. Is there even room for him with no one leaving?Ā Iāve always stated that Iād rather a kid go the CHL route, due to more games and they get paid plus they get college funds etc. The playoffs in Major Jr are much more superior to the NCAA tourney. However, Iām not against a kid putting in 2 years at an NCAA school for hockey. After that itās kinda useless as far as hockey goes. Sure they can get the education, which is very important if you donāt have much of a hockey career ahead of you. After 2 years theyāll be ready for stiffer competition. On the CHL side. Yes kids put 4 years in sometimes. But theyāre teenagers and growing up. I donāt believe itās detrimental to a teenager staying for 4 years. But I think itās awful for a kid 21-22-23 staying in college. Unless their goal is literally to get the education and hockey is 2nd. Then I agree!!! |
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Post by galaxytrash on Jul 18, 2020 16:09:45 GMT -6
no. i think it was the teenage mutant ninja turtles. kidding aside, i couldn't think of a lamer slogan than "all for one". hell...."cowabunga, dude" would have more appeal. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Jul 18, 2020 16:18:14 GMT -6
no. i think it was the teenage mutant ninja turtles. kidding aside, i couldn't think of a lamer slogan than "all for one". hell...."cowabunga, dude" would have more appeal. It's the NHL slogan for this sham PO. |
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Post by vadarx on Jul 19, 2020 1:20:33 GMT -6
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Post by Tater on Jul 19, 2020 1:32:32 GMT -6
no. i think it was the teenage mutant ninja turtles. kidding aside, i couldn't think of a lamer slogan than "all for one". hell...."cowabunga, dude" would have more appeal.
For a team with no pack mentality, where players have to fend for themselves, it doesn't really fit.
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Post by acesandeights on Jul 19, 2020 7:42:34 GMT -6
Thanks for posting; that was interesting. I live in Broken Arrow, which is basically a suburb of Tulsa, and there have been several articles over the years about Native American names and logos. Something interesting was last week an interview with the Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation was in the paper and he said he has a lot of relatives that are a mix of white and Native American. Plus a number that are 100% NA. What was interesting was he said all of them don't even agree on everything concerning Native American names, logos, etc. |
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Post by hsbob on Jul 19, 2020 8:07:27 GMT -6
It's bit of an inconvenient truth......isn't it. There can be three take-aways from this story as far as I'm concerned..... Realize it's a factual recounting of affairs and have compassion for the women and children who were slaughtered and a people who had everything taken from them. Realize it's a factual account and not really give a shit or just call it 'fake news'......we'll see a LOT of the last two choices! Maybe a new logo could depict the "parading of the 'red demon' around eastern cities like a prize". The atrocities perpetrated upon the entire western hemisphere by european invaders was the greatest episode of ethnic cleansing the world has ever seen.......and it's still being celebrated. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 13:33:21 GMT -6
It's bit of an inconvenient truth......isn't it. There can be three take-aways from this story as far as I'm concerned..... Realize it's a factual recounting of affairs and have compassion for the women and children who were slaughtered and a people who had everything taken from them. Realize it's a factual account and not really give a shit or just call it 'fake news'......we'll see a LOT of the last two choices! Maybe a new logo could depict the "parading of the 'red demon' around eastern cities like a prize". The atrocities perpetrated upon the entire western hemisphere by european invaders was the greatest episode of ethnic cleansing the world has ever seen.......and it's still being celebrated.Ā Ā If they absolutely felt the need to change how about a mean looking black Hawk (bird) with the 4 colorful feathers incorporated somewhere? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 15:56:01 GMT -6
It's bit of an inconvenient truth......isn't it. There can be three take-aways from this story as far as I'm concerned..... Realize it's a factual recounting of affairs and have compassion for the women and children who were slaughtered and a people who had everything taken from them. Realize it's a factual account and not really give a shit or just call it 'fake news'......we'll see a LOT of the last two choices! Maybe a new logo could depict the "parading of the 'red demon' around eastern cities like a prize". The atrocities perpetrated upon the entire western hemisphere by european invaders was the greatest episode of ethnic cleansing the world has ever seen.......and it's still being celebrated. If they absolutely felt the need to change how about a mean looking black Hawk (bird) with the 4 colorful feathers incorporated somewhere?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 17:01:06 GMT -6
If they absolutely felt the need to change how about a mean looking black Hawk (bird) with the 4 colorful feathers incorporated somewhere? precisely only slightly more angry/mean |
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Post by Tater on Jul 19, 2020 23:59:35 GMT -6
Don't make Tommy Hawk angry. You won't like him when he's angry.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 0:37:55 GMT -6
Don't make Tommy Hawk angry. You won't like him when he's angry. are you Tommy Hawk? |
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Post by Tater on Jul 20, 2020 0:55:05 GMT -6
Don't make Tommy Hawk angry. You won't like him when he's angry. are you Tommy Hawk? Hehe, it was an attempt (bad) at a Hulk joke. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 1:48:56 GMT -6
Hehe, it was an attempt (bad) at a Hulk joke. ahh my bad I've never seen any of those Hulk movies thought it would be funny if the person under the costume was a member of the board in college one of my fraternity brothers was our school mascot (well, there were 4 different people and 2 mascot suits)... but it was fun when we got him drunk one night, made him put it on in the frat house and "smoke" a bong for a photo |
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Post by Tater on Jul 20, 2020 1:57:51 GMT -6
Hehe, it was an attempt (bad) at a Hulk joke. ahh my bad I've never seen any of those Hulk movies thought it would be funny if the person under the costume was a member of the board in college one of my fraternity brothers was our school mascot (well, there were 4 different people and 2 mascot suits)... but it was fun when we got him drunk one night, made him put it on in the frat house and "smoke" a bong for a photo I've never seen the movies either, but in the original TV show I think something like that was said (making him mad) before he transformed.
LOL @ the bong picture.
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Post by irmaks on Oct 13, 2020 12:36:57 GMT -6
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Post by vadarx on Oct 13, 2020 13:25:04 GMT -6
who could've guessed that that was coming?!?
it won't be the last time.....
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Post by squishy24 on Oct 14, 2020 8:41:36 GMT -6
I never understood the outrage on using native american symbols/name/anything. I dont mean to offend anyone by this post and would like to be educated more, but as someone who is not investing my time heavily on the subject, why are they offended? In my opinion, just my opinion, using their name/symbol/whatever is like an advertisement for them. Its a validation, a reminder that they exist. Honestly, again just me, i would have never known or looked into who they are if it werent for sports (or other bigger entity) using their name. Do they just want to be left alone and forgotten? Or are they offended that theyre not getting royalties? Again, no offense intended. On a separate note, i saw pics of some of the graffiti. There are ādefund CPDā graffiti in it as well. Which makes me think, this is on the defund police movement more than native american outrage |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 14, 2020 10:09:37 GMT -6
listen, I love the Crest and such as much as any 'hawks fan. I can't disagree with you as far as not finding it disrespectful. I would very much like for it to be around for the duration of my go at life..... however, the fact of the matter is my opinion and your's and anyone else that isn't an indigenous person here means exactly jack and shit. I've always thought the 'hawks did a good job of being active within the Native American community and the statement GT posted above tells me they will at least appear to continue to do so, but if those that are part of that community find it disrespectful and want it changed, then I believe it should be changed. no hair off my ass, anyway. they could call the team the shit eaters and I'll still root for em, although I dunno if I would wanna buy that sweater..... I grew up with some native Canadians. Cool guys. They taught me a lot and the best thing about them, they didnāt find anything offensive and didnāt really care what anyone thought about them. Hardest workers they were, and theyād take nothing for free. Thereās a few others I was acquaintances with and it never really came up about being treated wrong or there were social problems. But thatās just where I grew up. I donāt really recall racism being much of a memory. I find it too bad that people have been treated poorly and the names of teams and such have to be changed when I highly doubt theyāre names were being used as a racist tool. I get it, it may be taken that way. At least let the teams and such explain their reason for it. If itās shit or donāt even care to have one, then they should change. Sports bring people together, and I hope some common ground can be found. Maybe Iām ignorant to some of the names and their history. But I really donāt think the names were put in place to poke fun at indigenous people or anyone not white. But again, I know mostly what I e experienced, and it wasnāt much of an issue around here at all!!! In my humble opinion, and I'm not exaggerating here, I think the Blackhawks have the greatest uniform in sports and the key to that lofty regard is in its logo. Deep Red, white, black and that logo. It's just plain awesome. Of course, it doesn't matter how awesome it is, or even if it is based on reverence, if people are offended. I'm not here to make a judgment, but just deliver food for thought. I would love a native American or Canadian to share here. In places such as Washington state where I've lived for the past couple of decades, there are many native peoples and reservations. I learned to see things their way as much as I could. From time to time, I would find myself on a reservation (um, often it would be a casino). One time, maybe 15 years ago or so, I had a very interesting conversation with an older native. Somehow, we got to the subject of political correctness. Quite surprisingly, he held a very conservative view. He went on and on about how so much of this "p.c. stuff" is a product of the times, that it's the younger natives that are pushing this. He actually said that he and others about his age did not have a problem with the label "Indian." This convo was so interesting to me that I would get into similar conversations with natives, both young and old in later years. I'm telling you, and I know this is just from my own conversations so it's not scientific, but you could mark it down that the only ones who cared about p.c. were the young ones, but not even most of them. Hey, times change. I don't want to be judgmental here and I mean no disrespect. I'm just trying to throw something out there as food for thought. Again, I would love for a native to share, please! |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 14, 2020 10:23:41 GMT -6
The common ground would be similar to what Florida State and the Seminole tribe did; they sat down and negotiated an agreement. FSU had the support of the Seminole tribe which I think was a requirement of the NCAA to retain a tribal nickname. FSU agreed to help the schools on the reservation and provide schol's for natives to attend FSU. I think doing away with the tomahawk chop may have been part of it too, though I'm not sure. The tribe turned down receiving a portion of souvenir sales. FSU also made minor changes to their logo, on their own, to make it less offensive. And cut down on how the mascot is used. Fla. St. was trying to do away with stereotypes and anything offensive. Now this is college and not pros but it seems pro teams could do something similar with area tribes. Being more active in the NA community is a good start. I appreciate you mentioning the Hawks having had a dialog with the AIC. Assuming the dialog took place in an attempt to come to an agreement of some kind, I'm guessing nothing really came of it if the AIC is saying they will cut ties with the Blackhawks and any other org. that perpetuates stereotypes. I'm waiting for the NCAA to tell Notre Dame they have to change their "Fighting Irish" nickname. If you're actually comparing the plight of the Irish American to what the Native Americans have endured here,I can recommend some reading. I don't mean to argue here Bob. I'm just sharing ideas. I was very, very surprised to find out that there was a time in the 1800's, like right after the Irish potato famine of the 1840's that indirectly drove many to emigrate to the states, that the Irish were actually beneath the status of African Americans and this was during slavery. I could hardly believe it when I was first educated about this. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 12:04:21 GMT -6
I never understood the outrage on using native american symbols/name/anything. I dont mean to offend anyone by this post and would like to be educated more, but as someone who is not investing my time heavily on the subject, why are they offended? In my opinion, just my opinion, using their name/symbol/whatever is like an advertisement for them. Its a validation, a reminder that they exist. Honestly, again just me, i would have never known or looked into who they are if it werent for sports (or other bigger entity) using their name. Do they just want to be left alone and forgotten? Or are they offended that theyre not getting royalties? Again, no offense intended. On a separate note, i saw pics of some of the graffiti. There are ādefund CPDā graffiti in it as well. Which makes me think, this is on the defund police movement more than native american outrage vadarx posted this some back and I think it says it all........ www.counterpunch.org/2020/07/14/sorry-the-chicago-blackhawks-need-to-change-their-name-and-logo/#gsc.tab=0It's easy to understand why non-natives have no problem with it......they don't teach this stuff in schools so how can we know. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 12:11:52 GMT -6
If you're actually comparing the plight of the Irish American to what the Native Americans have endured here,I can recommend some reading. I don't mean to argue here Bob. I'm just sharing ideas. I was very, very surprised to find out that there was a time in the 1800's, like right after the Irish potato famine of the 1840's that indirectly drove many to emigrate to the states, that the Irish were actually beneath the status of African Americans and this was during slavery. I could hardly believe it when I was first educated about this. I'm not sure the Irish were ever below the the black man in our country,they were never enslaved last I checked but you are right,the Irish and the Italian were both heavily discriminated against and spit on the moment they got off the boat,my old man got off one of those boats from Italy. As soon as both nationalities assimilated,they were quick to spit on whoever came next......it's a wonderful country! Look into how the Chinese and the Tajano's were treated.....it was always worse for non-whites. |
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Post by squishy24 on Oct 14, 2020 12:28:15 GMT -6
I never understood the outrage on using native american symbols/name/anything. I dont mean to offend anyone by this post and would like to be educated more, but as someone who is not investing my time heavily on the subject, why are they offended? In my opinion, just my opinion, using their name/symbol/whatever is like an advertisement for them. Its a validation, a reminder that they exist. Honestly, again just me, i would have never known or looked into who they are if it werent for sports (or other bigger entity) using their name. Do they just want to be left alone and forgotten? Or are they offended that theyre not getting royalties? Again, no offense intended. On a separate note, i saw pics of some of the graffiti. There are ādefund CPDā graffiti in it as well. Which makes me think, this is on the defund police movement more than native american outrage vadarx posted this some back and I think it says it all........ www.counterpunch.org/2020/07/14/sorry-the-chicago-blackhawks-need-to-change-their-name-and-logo/#gsc.tab=0It's easy to understand why non-natives have no problem with it......they don't teach this stuff in schools so how can we know. Thank you for the link. But it doesnt invalidate what i said, If the blackhawks change their name decades ago, (80ās, 90ās), we probably wont know who the Blackhawks native american nation were. Their story, their plight, who they are, will most likely fade from history. As you said, they dont teach these in schools. Also, who jumps into the conclusion that using a native american name means theyre showing how inferior they are? That doesnt really inspire your team. I guess im more leaning to the side of āhonor and inspirationā. These blackhawks fought bravely against a vastly superior enemy and give their lives to their cause. Thats inspirational, isnt it? If not, then we should stop remembering the Alamo |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 14, 2020 13:19:43 GMT -6
Thank you for the link. But it doesnt invalidate what i said, If the blackhawks change their name decades ago, (80ās, 90ās), we probably wont know who the Blackhawks native american nation were. Their story, their plight, who they are, will most likely fade from history. As you said, they dont teach these in schools. Also, who jumps into the conclusion that using a native american name means theyre showing how inferior they are? That doesnt really inspire your team. I guess im more leaning to the side of āhonor and inspirationā. These blackhawks fought bravely against a vastly superior enemy and give their lives to their cause. Thats inspirational, isnt it? If not, then we should stop remembering the Alamo You bring up a really interesting point! I have been a kind of history buff over the course of my years. I also enjoyed studying history whenever it was taught to me. That said, I never, ever learned about Chief Blackhawk this way. I learned about him and his tribe through the Chicago Blackhawk media years ago. THAT's how I learned about that even though I tend to be more knowledgeable about history than most. So, the Chicago Blackhawks name, logo and public relations taught me the wonderful things about him and his brethren (and sistren). |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 14, 2020 13:25:57 GMT -6
I don't mean to argue here Bob. I'm just sharing ideas. I was very, very surprised to find out that there was a time in the 1800's, like right after the Irish potato famine of the 1840's that indirectly drove many to emigrate to the states, that the Irish were actually beneath the status of African Americans and this was during slavery. I could hardly believe it when I was first educated about this. I'm not sure the Irish were ever below the the black man in our country,they were never enslaved last I checked but you are right,the Irish and the Italian were both heavily discriminated against and spit on the moment they got off the boat,my old man got off one of those boats from Italy. As soon as both nationalities assimilated,they were quick to spit on whoever came next......it's a wonderful country! Look into how the Chinese and the Tajano's were treated.....it was always worse for non-whites. Bob, you made a terrific point about the fact that the Irish were never enslaved. Yeah, I mean, how does that slavery thing put the Irishman beneath the African American, right? I failed to mention that this lowly view of the Irish was in the Northern states wherein there was no slavery after the very, very early 1800's. The "O'Hara's" kind of made a name for themselves in the South. |
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Post by hawkfaninpdx on Oct 14, 2020 13:54:25 GMT -6
I'm not sure the Irish were ever below the the black man in our country,they were never enslaved last I checked but you are right,the Irish and the Italian were both heavily discriminated against and spit on the moment they got off the boat,my old man got off one of those boats from Italy. As soon as both nationalities assimilated,they were quick to spit on whoever came next......it's a wonderful country! Look into how the Chinese and the Tajano's were treated.....it was always worse for non-whites. Bob, you made a terrific point about the fact that the Irish were never enslaved. Yeah, I mean, how does that slavery thing put the Irishman beneath the African American, right? I failed to mention that this lowly view of the Irish was in the Northern states wherein there was no slavery after the very, very early 1800's. The "O'Hara's" kind of made a name for themselves in the South. Mark Twain has an amusing short story where he dissects the ludicrous "caste" system that existed back in the day. An Irishman could testify in court against a Black man, but not against a White man, and so on. It's a great piece of satire that shone a spotlight on the great disparities that existed in his time; and they still persist, but in a different form. |
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Post by BigT on Oct 14, 2020 13:59:21 GMT -6
I agree with Squishy here. Gig with some valid points. I also respect Bobs point of views on this. I think the conversation needs to happen.
I have a question. Iāve asked this to my friends in the past that are native. Even though they agreed with me on the Blackhawks and didnāt think much of it. I asked them this. Would your life be any different if the Hawks or even Redskins changed their name? And they said no. Simply because they feel the bulk of the damage has been done to their people. And they just wanna reclaim what little they can. I think for the most part they just wanna he left alone.
My family heavily came from Ireland. Iāve learned through the elders in my family that Irish kids were forced to sign contracts with an English man and come to the new world in the 1700s all the way to the 1900s and literally work themselves to death for the Englishman. Irish were beaten down, treated horribly for centuries. As an Irish descendant, I donāt see no harm in the āFighting Irishā. Many can say that the Irish are drunken brawlers. And thereās a reason why itās called a āPatty wagonā. Itās part of the history in North America whether we like it or not. History is the best teacher. We need to learn and have conversations on it. What is the length of freedoms reign? Freedom of speech? Where would we take freedoms in a newer world. Itās easy to call someone a racist when they disagree with you, but just make sure the people youāre trying to stick up for even want your help. Iāve literally had my black friend (James, whoās no longer with us), tell me to stay away from that fight, as I donāt know what itās like. This guy was a brother to me and I understand why he said that. I respect him. Loved him and took his lead on that subject 20 years ago. Sometimes the things you think are important and fight for, might not sit well with the people who are living it. This is why we need to have conversations with the ones who are living it. I think itās great that Gig asked for someone who is native to chime in. Maybe what they say is much different than weāre saying, in either direction!!!
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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 14:01:45 GMT -6
Thank you for the link. But it doesnt invalidate what i said, If the blackhawks change their name decades ago, (80ās, 90ās), we probably wont know who the Blackhawks native american nation were. Their story, their plight, who they are, will most likely fade from history. As you said, they dont teach these in schools. Also, who jumps into the conclusion that using a native american name means theyre showing how inferior they are? That doesnt really inspire your team. I guess im more leaning to the side of āhonor and inspirationā. These blackhawks fought bravely against a vastly superior enemy and give their lives to their cause. Thats inspirational, isnt it? If not, then we should stop remembering the Alamo THESE Blackhawks fought to reclaim their homeland against murderous colonizing troops and saw their women and children SLAUGHTETED and Chief Blackhawk himself paraded around like an oddity and there's exactly ZERO reverence in that. It's hard to fathom how you can come away with what you came away with after reading that article but then again....the only good injun is a dead injun. Let alone the ongoing plight of the Natives on the res. to this day. Maybe the sight of dead women and children can inspire the team,wouldn't that be something on the jumbotron! |
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