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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 14:04:52 GMT -6
I'm not sure the Irish were ever below the the black man in our country,they were never enslaved last I checked but you are right,the Irish and the Italian were both heavily discriminated against and spit on the moment they got off the boat,my old man got off one of those boats from Italy. As soon as both nationalities assimilated,they were quick to spit on whoever came next......it's a wonderful country! Look into how the Chinese and the Tajano's were treated.....it was always worse for non-whites. Bob, you made a terrific point about the fact that the Irish were never enslaved. Yeah, I mean, how does that slavery thing put the Irishman beneath the African American, right? I failed to mention that this lowly view of the Irish was in the Northern states wherein there was no slavery after the very, very early 1800's. The "O'Hara's" kind of made a name for themselves in the South. And the O'Leary's in Chicago when Mrs O'Leary was blamed for the fire that she had nothing to do with just because the Irish were still hated at that point. PBS ran a great doc on the Chicago Fire and it was an eye opener. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 14:06:46 GMT -6
Thank you for the link. But it doesnt invalidate what i said, If the blackhawks change their name decades ago, (80’s, 90’s), we probably wont know who the Blackhawks native american nation were. Their story, their plight, who they are, will most likely fade from history. As you said, they dont teach these in schools. Also, who jumps into the conclusion that using a native american name means theyre showing how inferior they are? That doesnt really inspire your team. I guess im more leaning to the side of “honor and inspiration”. These blackhawks fought bravely against a vastly superior enemy and give their lives to their cause. Thats inspirational, isnt it? If not, then we should stop remembering the Alamo You bring up a really interesting point! I have been a kind of history buff over the course of my years. I also enjoyed studying history whenever it was taught to me. That said, I never, ever learned about Chief Blackhawk this way. I learned about him and his tribe through the Chicago Blackhawk media years ago. THAT's how I learned about that even though I tend to be more knowledgeable about history than most. So, the Chicago Blackhawks name, logo and public relations taught me the wonderful things about him and his brethren (and sistren). Otherwise known as propaganda. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 14:19:38 GMT -6
I agree with Squishy here. Gig with some valid points. I also respect Bobs point of views on this. I think the conversation needs to happen. I have a question. I’ve asked this to my friends in the past that are native. Even though they agreed with me on the Blackhawks and didn’t think much of it. I asked them this. Would your life be any different if the Hawks or even Redskins changed their name? And they said no. Simply because they feel the bulk of the damage has been done to their people. And they just wanna reclaim what little they can. I think for the most part they just wanna he left alone. My family heavily came from Ireland. I’ve learned through the elders in my family that Irish kids were forced to sign contracts with an English man and come to the new world in the 1700s all the way to the 1900s and literally work themselves to death for the Englishman. Irish were beaten down, treated horribly for centuries. As an Irish descendant, I don’t see no harm in the “Fighting Irish”. Many can say that the Irish are drunken brawlers. And there’s a reason why it’s called a “Patty wagon”. It’s part of the history in North America whether we like it or not. History is the best teacher. We need to learn and have conversations on it. What is the length of freedoms reign? Freedom of speech? Where would we take freedoms in a newer world. It’s easy to call someone a racist when they disagree with you, but just make sure the people you’re trying to stick up for even want your help. I’ve literally had my black friend (James, who’s no longer with us), tell me to stay away from that fight, as I don’t know what it’s like. This guy was a brother to me and I understand why he said that. I respect him. Loved him and took his lead on that subject 20 years ago. Sometimes the things you think are important and fight for, might not sit well with the people who are living it. This is why we need to have conversations with the ones who are living it. I think it’s great that Gig asked for someone who is native to chime in. Maybe what they say is much different than we’re saying, in either direction!!! If an Irish run university wants to call itself the 'Fighting Irish',then by all means,have at it. Someone who's native to chime in? These people are now so marginalized and living on poverty stricken reservations,I doubt few if any have a F'n computer but us white folks own the whole shabang and we'll do whatever we want. some are still okay with head coaches using racial slurs,Grapes shittin' all over immigrants and the image of a Native American who was savaged along with his people but then again we own the whole shabang. I saw the recent news story and hoped like hell it wouldn't hit the boards because I know my opinion is unwelcomed but you'll all get it anyway. The only Native American organization in Chicago,however small and powerless it is did take issue with the Hawks use of the image..... aicchicago.org/statement-on-blackhawks/Is this "chiming in"? |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 14, 2020 14:24:27 GMT -6
So, should we all begin to settle in to a world in which "our beloved" shall become the Chicago Hockey Team and maybe a gigantic puck will emblazon the front of the jersey?
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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 14:49:45 GMT -6
So, should we all begin to settle in to a world in which "our beloved" shall become the Chicago Hockey Team and maybe a gigantic puck will emblazon the front of the jersey? Or just go with the Black Hawks,maybe a floating Native corps logo on the shoulder for the traditionalists. It's good to have a world to settle into,ain't it? |
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Post by BigT on Oct 14, 2020 15:33:54 GMT -6
So, should we all begin to settle in to a world in which "our beloved" shall become the Chicago Hockey Team and maybe a gigantic puck will emblazon the front of the jersey? One thing to keep in mind is the natives in Quebec mixed with a lot of Irish and played what is now known as Lacrosse. They mixed the Irish game of Hurling with the natives version of hockey/lacrosse. They played on ice and it would be a days long battle. The natives in Canada have a lot to do with the sport of Ice Hockey. Lacrosse is actually Canada’s national sport and not hockey. If there happens to be a change, then every team should just be called Chicago HC, NY HC, Colorado HC. Just to keep it civil. Even the Chicago Wolves can be offensive as the wolf population in the Illinois region has all but been wiped out. No they’re not humans, but they’re an integral part of an ecosystem!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 16:32:14 GMT -6
So, should we all begin to settle in to a world in which "our beloved" shall become the Chicago Hockey Team and maybe a gigantic puck will emblazon the front of the jersey? One thing to keep in mind is the natives in Quebec mixed with a lot of Irish and played what is now known as Lacrosse. They mixed the Irish game of Hurling with the natives version of hockey/lacrosse. They played on ice and it would be a days long battle. The natives in Canada have a lot to do with the sport of Ice Hockey. Lacrosse is actually Canada’s national sport and not hockey. If there happens to be a change, then every team should just be called Chicago HC, NY HC, Colorado HC. Just to keep it civil. Even the Chicago Wolves can be offensive as the wolf population in the Illinois region has all but been wiped out. No they’re not humans, but they’re an integral part of an ecosystem!!! There's a lot of room between a racist meme and no name at all and comparing Native Americans to wild animals in par for the course. How anyone can read the plight of Chief Blackhawk and his people and be totally devoid of empathy explains a lot of what's going on these days. Would there be jokes about slaughtered white women and children? |
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Post by squishy24 on Oct 14, 2020 16:33:33 GMT -6
Thank you for the link. But it doesnt invalidate what i said, If the blackhawks change their name decades ago, (80’s, 90’s), we probably wont know who the Blackhawks native american nation were. Their story, their plight, who they are, will most likely fade from history. As you said, they dont teach these in schools. Also, who jumps into the conclusion that using a native american name means theyre showing how inferior they are? That doesnt really inspire your team. I guess im more leaning to the side of “honor and inspiration”. These blackhawks fought bravely against a vastly superior enemy and give their lives to their cause. Thats inspirational, isnt it? If not, then we should stop remembering the Alamo THESE Blackhawks fought to reclaim their homeland against murderous colonizing troops and saw their women and children SLAUGHTETED and Chief Blackhawk himself paraded around like an oddity and there's exactly ZERO reverence in that. It's hard to fathom how you can come away with what you came away with after reading that article but then again....the only good injun is a dead injun. Let alone the ongoing plight of the Natives on the res. to this day. Maybe the sight of dead women and children can inspire the team,wouldn't that be something on the jumbotron! I did say they fought for their lives against superior odds. Never did the point of the article is lost on me, but my point that no one, or at best minimal, would have known about them, if it not for sports holds true. I guess you answered my question, youre one of the people who actually think that when someone puts an “injun” name in their team, its to remind everyone that we slaughtered them and its to further humiliate them. Meanwhile, i just assume its a symbol of their bravery against impossible odds and thats a good inspiration to the team and everyone. Yea i guess that makes me the bad one |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 14, 2020 16:46:34 GMT -6
THESE Blackhawks fought to reclaim their homeland against murderous colonizing troops and saw their women and children SLAUGHTETED and Chief Blackhawk himself paraded around like an oddity and there's exactly ZERO reverence in that. It's hard to fathom how you can come away with what you came away with after reading that article but then again....the only good injun is a dead injun. Let alone the ongoing plight of the Natives on the res. to this day. Maybe the sight of dead women and children can inspire the team,wouldn't that be something on the jumbotron! I did say they fought for their lives against superior odds. Never did the point of the article is lost on me, but my point that no one, or at best minimal, would have known about them, if it not for sports holds true. I guess you answered my question, youre one of the people who actually think that when someone puts an “injun” name in their team, its to remind everyone that we slaughtered them and its to further humiliate them. Meanwhile, i just assume its a symbol of their bravery against impossible odds and thats a good inspiration to the team and everyone. Yea i guess that makes me the bad one Reckonings are often messy but necessary. The time has come for businesses to stop using images of oppressed people for greed and profit. Let Rocky put an image of a fat assed billionaire on the logo....LOFL |
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Post by mvr on Oct 14, 2020 17:30:08 GMT -6
The Blackhawks jersey and logo are to my mind the most beautiful in sport.
Nevertheless, as Bob and others have pointed out, the times are changing.
If even a small proportion of a marginalized group is uncomfortable or offended by the present design, it is really too many.
I don't see any rationale reason why the team needs to hang on stubbornly to the present design. After all, it is by no means the original look. The logo has changed at least four times already, and it will change again at some point. The dominant colour scheme has also evolved over time, as has the red shading.
Small changes would make a big difference here. Replace the Indian Head with a black hawk bird. Maintain all the colour patterns in the new logo, and change the tomahawks on the sleeves to hockey sticks (again using the same colours). Maintain the black and white barber pole trimmings and the iconic numbers/letter fonts.
Nobody wins when everyone digs in and refuses to compromise or listen to the other side.
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Post by mvr on Oct 14, 2020 17:43:34 GMT -6
Radicals and extremists are always marginalized during their time. But they are often proven right over the course of history.
When I was a kid, everyone made fun of "tree huggers." Homosexuals were beaten up. Feminists were considered lesbians. Malcolm X and the Civil Rights leaders were terrorists.
Thank goodness for radicals. Where would America be today without those revolutionary extremists dumping tea into the Boston Harbour?
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Post by vadarx on Oct 14, 2020 18:00:18 GMT -6
I don't mean to argue here Bob. I'm just sharing ideas. I was very, very surprised to find out that there was a time in the 1800's, like right after the Irish potato famine of the 1840's that indirectly drove many to emigrate to the states, that the Irish were actually beneath the status of African Americans and this was during slavery. I could hardly believe it when I was first educated about this. I'm not sure the Irish were ever below the the black man in our country,they were never enslaved last I checked but you are right,the Irish and the Italian were both heavily discriminated against and spit on the moment they got off the boat,my old man got off one of those boats from Italy. As soon as both nationalities assimilated,they were quick to spit on whoever came next......it's a wonderful country! Look into how the Chinese and the Tajano's were treated.....it was always worse for non-whites. you guys have never seen Gangs of New York? |
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Post by squishy24 on Oct 14, 2020 18:22:58 GMT -6
The Blackhawks jersey and logo are to my mind the most beautiful in sport. Nevertheless, as Bob and others have pointed out, the times are changing. If even a small proportion of a marginalized group is uncomfortable or offended by the present design, it is really too many. I don't see any rationale reason why the team needs to hang on stubbornly to the present design. After all, it is by no means the original look. The logo has changed at least four times already, and it will change again at some point. The dominant colour scheme has also evolved over time, as has the red shading. Small changes would make a big difference here. Replace the Indian Head with a black hawk bird. Maintain all the colour patterns in the new logo, and change the tomahawks on the sleeves to hockey sticks (again using the same colours). Maintain the black and white barber pole trimmings and the iconic numbers/letter fonts. Nobody wins when everyone digs in and refuses to compromise or listen to the other side. Have the blackhawk tribe formally sent a request to remove their symbols/name/whtever? If so, then by all means, the hockey team should change their logos. I dont see a compromise in your post by the way, its all just the hockey team doing what the other wants. No one has the rights to the words “black hawks” or pictures of tomahawks. And back to my point, there are hundreds different tribes that were genocide during the white expansion. How many of them can you name now? And how do you know or where did you hear their tribe names? If you remove Blackhawks from a popular national team, they will be long forgotten probably within a decade. It is only hurting their legacy and they will be erased in history |
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Post by vadarx on Oct 14, 2020 18:41:09 GMT -6
Black Hawk wasn't a tribe, he was a leader of one.
would I know that if not for the hockey team I follow? nope. does that make it right to continue to maintain the status quo even though it may be offensive to others?
the crest is the thing that usually is brought up, more than the name. it is a caricature that some indigenous people find offensive.
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Post by BigT on Oct 14, 2020 18:57:15 GMT -6
Black Hawk wasn't a tribe, he was a leader of one. would I know that if not for the hockey team I follow? nope. does that make it right to continue to maintain the status quo even though it may be offensive to others? the crest is the thing that usually is brought up, more than the name. it is a caricature that some indigenous people find offensive. You brought up the most valid point on here during a GDT not long ago. This is turning into more of a political type argument and maybe it’s best to put this to bed. I don’t think anyone here is seriously racist and I sure as hell don’t think anyone wants a gawd damn genocide. If they change it cool, if they don’t cool. I think we should get back to hockey talk no matter what the team name and logo are!!! |
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Post by galaxytrash on Oct 14, 2020 19:05:22 GMT -6
Black Hawk wasn't a tribe, he was a leader of one. would I know that if not for the hockey team I follow? nope. does that make it right to continue to maintain the status quo even though it may be offensive to others? the crest is the thing that usually is brought up, more than the name. it is a caricature that some indigenous people find offensive. You brought up the most valid point on here during a GDT not long ago. This is turning into more of a political type argument and maybe it’s best to put this to bed. I don’t think anyone here is seriously racist and I sure as hell don’t think anyone wants a gawd damn genocide. If they change it cool, if they don’t cool. I think we should get back to hockey talk no matter what the team name and logo are!!! possibly, but to everyone's credit here it is nowhere close to flying off the rails. |
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Post by irmaks on Oct 14, 2020 19:14:17 GMT -6
It's all great conversation and everyone has a good points and I'm really sorry for bringing it up.
I just don't get how that explains defacing statue with painting and graffiti especially with one defunding police. It has nothing to do with history, it's simply vandalism.
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Post by BigT on Oct 14, 2020 19:19:05 GMT -6
It's all great conversation and everyone has a good points and I'm really sorry for bringing it up. I just don't get how that explains defacing statue with painting and graffiti especially with one defunding police. It has nothing to do with history, it's simply vandalism. You are right on both fronts. It’s not your fault at all. I could be a good subject but I think some of us, myself included are very passionate about our views and sometimes they clash here. As for vandalism, it happens. Losers do losing things. I don’t care what you write on it, it’s not the place to deface someone one else’s property. What ever they decide to do, it’s still hockey at the end, and that’s what I love!!! |
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Post by mvr on Oct 14, 2020 20:35:47 GMT -6
Squishy - If as you suggest the point is to build a legacy for Chief Black Hawk and the other tribes killed in the genocide, I believe this is a good cause.
If so, then the Blackhawks organization really should be jumping in with both feet. Have native tribe leaders (instead of military veterans) standing at centre ice during the national anthem. Provide real space at the arena for the native tribe organizations to promote their histories. Add statues in front of the arena featuring important native historical figures.
Above all, provide generous and public funds each year to help native tribes improve their situation. Use the team as the conduit for First Nations peoples to take pride in their past.
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Post by vadarx on Oct 14, 2020 20:47:52 GMT -6
Squishy - If as you suggest the point is to build a legacy for Chief Black Hawk and the other tribes killed in the genocide, I believe this is a good cause. If so, then the Blackhawks organization really should be jumping in with both feet. Have native tribe leaders (instead of military veterans) standing at centre ice during the national anthem. Provide real space at the arena for the native tribe organizations to promote their histories. Add statues in front of the arena featuring important native historical figures. Above all, provide generous and public funds each year to help native tribes improve their situation. Use the team as the conduit for First Nations peoples to take pride in their past. my understanding is that the plan is to devote a portion of the UC to do just that. the almost always have a tribal member there for the anthem already. one thing i thought odd was that they just now banned headdresses..... i could have sworn they did that years ago when I was still living in the city..... maybe it was my imagination.... or the drugs.... or both.... |
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Post by mvr on Oct 14, 2020 20:52:51 GMT -6
A hundred years ago, the singer Al Jolson used to paint his face black before he went on stage as a symbol of respect for the African American community whose songs inspired him.
The idea of black face has evolved since that time.
The intention of the Blackhawks might not matter so much as the present perception of how certain people feel when they see the image.
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Post by mvr on Oct 14, 2020 21:03:25 GMT -6
Vadarx - The Hawks have done the minimal. Much more is needed to change the overall narrative here.
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Post by squishy24 on Oct 14, 2020 21:09:26 GMT -6
Squishy - If as you suggest the point is to build a legacy for Chief Black Hawk and the other tribes killed in the genocide, I believe this is a good cause. If so, then the Blackhawks organization really should be jumping in with both feet. Have native tribe leaders (instead of military veterans) standing at centre ice during the national anthem. Provide real space at the arena for the native tribe organizations to promote their histories. Add statues in front of the arena featuring important native historical figures. Above all, provide generous and public funds each year to help native tribes improve their situation. Use the team as the conduit for First Nations peoples to take pride in their past. That would actually be really good. I was thinking royalties or some payment like when companies put their names on stadiums or buildings (ex Sears tower, United Center) or maybe funding a museum celebrating their history. And this goes to every and all native americans, not just Black Hawks’. Way better option to consider for them than just being forgotten. |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 14, 2020 21:22:35 GMT -6
These are very divided times we're in. I don't recall the US having such a deep chasm politically. It has been said millions of times that if you want to keep things civil no matter the situation, including message boards, don't talk religion nor politics. I certainly have my own religious views as well as political views. I'm sure most, if not all, of you have yours even if they're irreligious or apolitical.
For me, I very nearly avoided getting into this discussion at all because we're kind of a quasi-sort of family I'd like to think. Those situations as I stated earlier often extend to Thanksgiving gatherings. I tried to make it so everyone would feel comfortable here getting a slice of turkey, a spoonful of taters, a ladle of dressing and a little cranberry on the side. I tried to remain neutral and instead it raised some hackles. I just wanted to throw some personal experiences I had had with native peoples and it seemed like I was labeling myself as a certain kind of group which, by the way, would be wrong. I now wish I had just left the room without words.
I agree with Big T. I think this innocently got too political in times that are very, very tender. I'm thinking it's next to impossible to truly venture into politics today and still try to "walk the line" so to speak. By the way, for whatever it's worth, nothing I said should give anyone a notion of who I am politically or even religiously.
I value you guys. Let's put this to bed.
Gig
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Post by vadarx on Oct 14, 2020 21:40:23 GMT -6
Vadarx - The Hawks have done the minimal. Much more is needed to change the overall narrative here. no argument here. I was not arguing in their favor, just stating what they have done or are planning to do. |
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Post by vadarx on Oct 14, 2020 21:44:42 GMT -6
Squishy - If as you suggest the point is to build a legacy for Chief Black Hawk and the other tribes killed in the genocide, I believe this is a good cause. If so, then the Blackhawks organization really should be jumping in with both feet. Have native tribe leaders (instead of military veterans) standing at centre ice during the national anthem. Provide real space at the arena for the native tribe organizations to promote their histories. Add statues in front of the arena featuring important native historical figures. Above all, provide generous and public funds each year to help native tribes improve their situation. Use the team as the conduit for First Nations peoples to take pride in their past. That would actually be really good. I was thinking royalties or some payment like when companies put their names on stadiums or buildings (ex Sears tower, United Center) or maybe funding a museum celebrating their history. And this goes to every and all native americans, not just Black Hawks’. Way better option to consider for them than just being forgotten. i believe they also have been giving the local tribes money. not 100 on that, but I'm pretty sure they have. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 15, 2020 9:29:12 GMT -6
The Blackhawks jersey and logo are to my mind the most beautiful in sport. Nevertheless, as Bob and others have pointed out, the times are changing. If even a small proportion of a marginalized group is uncomfortable or offended by the present design, it is really too many. I don't see any rationale reason why the team needs to hang on stubbornly to the present design. After all, it is by no means the original look. The logo has changed at least four times already, and it will change again at some point. The dominant colour scheme has also evolved over time, as has the red shading. Small changes would make a big difference here. Replace the Indian Head with a black hawk bird. Maintain all the colour patterns in the new logo, and change the tomahawks on the sleeves to hockey sticks (again using the same colours). Maintain the black and white barber pole trimmings and the iconic numbers/letter fonts. Nobody wins when everyone digs in and refuses to compromise or listen to the other side. No more links or opinions on this issue after this one..... I read an article yesterday that claimed over 2/3 of the Native population opposes their likenesses being used for any product and Crazy Horse's relatives have actually won in court to stop it and to get reparations......not a small proportion. The rest of your post is spot on,this isn't a 'Washington football team' scenario,the name can be retained and just split into two words....Black Hawks which means little to anyone anyway because most fans just refer to the team as the 'Hawks' and the jersey can be handled just the way you suggested which is basically a tweak or two. The term 'compromise' is thought provoking as are many of your posts mvr,segments of the population can be compromised too and none are more so than the Native American population. I have a certain sense of right and wrong on this issue and if someone else doesn't share it,that'll be up to me to deal with from here on out. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 15, 2020 9:44:09 GMT -6
These are very divided times we're in. I don't recall the US having such a deep chasm politically. It has been said millions of times that if you want to keep things civil no matter the situation, including message boards, don't talk religion nor politics. I certainly have my own religious views as well as political views. I'm sure most, if not all, of you have yours even if they're irreligious or apolitical. For me, I very nearly avoided getting into this discussion at all because we're kind of a quasi-sort of family I'd like to think. Those situations as I stated earlier often extend to Thanksgiving gatherings. I tried to make it so everyone would feel comfortable here getting a slice of turkey, a spoonful of taters, a ladle of dressing and a little cranberry on the side. I tried to remain neutral and instead it raised some hackles. I just wanted to throw some personal experiences I had had with native peoples and it seemed like I was labeling myself as a certain kind of group which, by the way, would be wrong. I now wish I had just left the room without words. I agree with Big T. I think this innocently got too political in times that are very, very tender. I'm thinking it's next to impossible to truly venture into politics today and still try to "walk the line" so to speak. By the way, for whatever it's worth, nothing I said should give anyone a notion of who I am politically or even religiously. I value you guys. Let's put this to bed. Gig You know my stance on the issue gig and I wanted to point out NOTHING you said gave me pause what so ever. I find nothing you or anyone else said offensive either,no one's bad and right and wrong is an ambiguous concept. I realize that traditions die hard and I'm not out to destroy America's or anyone else's. Your viewpoint will always be welcomed by me my friend,agree or disagree and I believe we're probably more in agreement than anything else.....you just phrased things differently that I did. |
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Post by tincup on Oct 15, 2020 15:15:16 GMT -6
Well this poor bastard will never be able to remove his shirt in public anymore. There’s no few out there with permanent homages on their skin. Glad I never took that route.  |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 15, 2020 16:15:35 GMT -6
Well this poor bastard will never be able to remove his shirt in public anymore. There’s no few out there with permanent homages on their skin. Glad I never took that route. If I had a kid who wanted to do the tattoo thing, the first argument I'd share with him or her would be to REALLY think about where you might be in, say, a couple of decades or more. "Grandpa, why do you have that silly thing on your forehead?" "Ahhhhhhhh, it was something I wanted at time the my child. Please don't do what I did." I mean guys will tattoo the love of their lives on their forearms, the relationship sours, and there he is trying ask someone to marry him who has to look at Vanessa in a bikini with the words 'all my love forever' beneath. Yeah, that took a lot of forethought on something that can't be reversed. You speak of this one's love of the Blackhawks. Even if he continues this love, he pretty much has to marry someone with about the same level of love for this team. |
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