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Post by Granada on May 7, 2024 10:54:22 GMT -6
I think it's naive to insinuate that only Stanley Cup champions can provide true influence and leadership. It's very reminiscent of the argument people made when Lehner was brought in (with Crawford), essentially arguing that there were no other options for a solid backup, which was and always is false. Murphy, Foligno, Jones, Hall, Perry, even a guy like Tinordi -- all of these guys hold sway with young players. You ask Bedard right now how he feels about a guy like Foligno, and he'll genuinely rave about the guy. I guess because the guy doesn't have 3 Stanley Cups, his leadership is less in your eyes. Again, fans only know what they're used to. You're used to Toews and Kane, so to you, those are the only two options that make sense. It's an outdated way of thinking to me. It's what the majority of fans do and why many love retreads. Lastly, has it ever occurred to you that perhaps Toews' and Kane's voices were falling flat in the room? I did not insinuate that "only" Stanley Cup champions can provide quality leadership. I do think, however, Kane and Toews have proven they can do the job quite adequately. Given their track record (Panarin, Debrincat), there was no need to change direction after the firing of the mickey mouse coaching staff. If certain players felt the leaders' voices "were falling flat," would in not make more sense to trade those guys? Davidson is in charge. But he has won nothing at any level. His opinions about leadership are only theories. The evidence suggests Stanley Cup winners actually do make good leaders. There are a plethora of reasons why they wouldn't have been able to be traded (salary, injury history, NMC's, and the fact that KD didn't want eat any salary, etc.). Moving Kane at the deadline on the last year of his contract was a no-brainer for any GM in order maximize return for Kane, even if KD's options were limited. I'll say it again: you guys act like Toews and Kane were the only options out there in terms of leadership. They weren't. KD brought in alternative options that were smarter from a contractual and term standpoint. New Blood for a rebuilding organization is quite logical and common.
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Post by hsbob on May 7, 2024 11:35:26 GMT -6
But he wasn't removed from hockey when some backward baseball cap wearing welp of a GM called him into his office to notify him he would be done here and his 'night' was already scheduled in a few days so he could have his parents and a few friends attend.....he was playing at the time. His "injury history" was actually an 'illness history',he was dealing with long covid and possibly other conditions. Great players wear-down after opening a vein for their team for over a decade. Did Toews really have a relapse right before the TDL his last year here,or did he just not want to be 'whored-out' for a few months? He was playing well before and returned later that season. Does he step away from the game if he felt wanted here? Taylor Hall? He played TEN games after his 6MX2 contract was acquired w/o an ounce of sweetener or retained money.....Boston owes us one! The last GM woulda been roasted for wasting 10 million on Hall and Perry.....the new GM is celebrated for it . Bob, he missed the entire 2020-21 season, did he not? And no, it wasn't just covid; we all know his injury history with concussions/back issues/etc. Same with Kane. Nobody could have predicted how the hip surgery was going to go and we all recall how Kane's game was before the surgery. I'm honestly curious: Do you give as much guff to Drury for not re-signing Kane, or do you solely reserve it for Davidson? It's easy to say in hindsight and after the surgery, but there was a valid reason why both GM's elected to move on. I don't see anyone celebrating KD for Hall. I simply understand the move, from an organizational and contractual standpoint. Also, Hall is a power-forward, unlike Kane -- and it makes sense why you'd want a power-forward on Bedard's line instead of a player like Kane. As far as the other stuff in your post, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but if Toews willfully sat out without a legitimate reason, simply because he didn't like the current GM -- why in the world would you want a guy like that to be brought back for a leadership role? I don't believe he'd do that one bit, and I'm befuddled how you could. I'll agree with you here: great players wear down. That's why tough decisions need to be made. JT played 82 and 70 the two years before he was sick and 71 the year after,he only saw 53 the year he was booted due to what he referred to as a 'relapse '. His rookie season and '11-12' were the only two years he missed over 12 games. Taylor Hall missed 21 games to injury the year before he was acquired @31,I don't see how anyone could be surprised by him being injured again. Kane was a month and a half rental in NY,why would Drury feel any loyalty or commitment? He was a 14 1/2 year veteran and 3-time cup winner here who played 1,161 regular season and 136 PO games for a franchise that should have shown loyalty but didn't. Whether you're befuddled or not,JT played em all until he said he wasn't feeling right shortly before the TDL his last year here and he also came back to play later that year. I didn't suggest he 'MIGHT' have overstated his illness because he didn't like Jr,I just don't think he wanted to be 'whored out' for a month and a half for a meager return. Kane had every right to shut it down late in the year with that bad wheel too but he went to NY on one leg so the team could get that all important 2nd rounder. The two players owed the team nothing at that point IMO. The wide-open and nearly limitless checkbook the FO had last summer resulted in the additions of Hall,Perry and AA for 14.25M bucks. That 14.25M resulted in 54 games played,8 goals and 22 points combined between the three players........money well spent in your opinion? Smarter? Foligno on the other hand worked out well. I get it,some fans just wanted K&T gone and some endlessly ragged em their last few years here too,they got their wish.
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Post by hsbob on May 7, 2024 11:43:19 GMT -6
Where would the team have been last year without Corey Perry's leadership and the example he set? His contract was terminated,he embarrassed the storied franchise and made the Lil GM cry in a press conference......all that for only 4M bucks!
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Granada
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Post by Granada on May 7, 2024 11:58:04 GMT -6
Bob, he missed the entire 2020-21 season, did he not? And no, it wasn't just covid; we all know his injury history with concussions/back issues/etc. Same with Kane. Nobody could have predicted how the hip surgery was going to go and we all recall how Kane's game was before the surgery. I'm honestly curious: Do you give as much guff to Drury for not re-signing Kane, or do you solely reserve it for Davidson? It's easy to say in hindsight and after the surgery, but there was a valid reason why both GM's elected to move on. I don't see anyone celebrating KD for Hall. I simply understand the move, from an organizational and contractual standpoint. Also, Hall is a power-forward, unlike Kane -- and it makes sense why you'd want a power-forward on Bedard's line instead of a player like Kane. As far as the other stuff in your post, I don't believe in conspiracy theories, but if Toews willfully sat out without a legitimate reason, simply because he didn't like the current GM -- why in the world would you want a guy like that to be brought back for a leadership role? I don't believe he'd do that one bit, and I'm befuddled how you could. I'll agree with you here: great players wear down. That's why tough decisions need to be made. JT played 82 and 70 the two years before he was sick and 71 the year after,he only saw 53 the year he was booted due to what he referred to as a 'relapse '. His rookie season and '11-12' were the only two years he missed over 12 games. Taylor Hall missed 21 games to injury the year before he was acquired @31,I don't see how anyone could be surprised by him being injured again. Kane was a month and a half rental in NY,why would Drury feel any loyalty or commitment? He was a 14 1/2 year veteran and 3-time cup winner here who played 1,161 regular season and 136 PO games for a franchise that should have shown loyalty but didn't. Whether you're befuddled or not,JT played em all until he said he wasn't feeling right shortly before the TDL his last year here and he also came back to play later that year. I didn't suggest he 'MIGHT' have overstated his illness because he didn't like Jr,I just don't think he wanted to be 'whored out' for a month and a half for a meager return. Kane had every right to shut it down late in the year with that bad wheel too but he went to NY on one leg so the team could get that all important 2nd rounder. The two players owed the team nothing at that point IMO. The wide-open and nearly limitless checkbook the FO had last summer resulted in the additions of Hall,Perry and AA for 14.25M bucks. That 14.25M resulted in 54 games played,8 goals and 22 points combined between the three players........money well spent in your opinion? Smarter? Foligno on the other hand worked out well. I get it,some fans just wanted K&T gone and some endlessly ragged em their last few years here too,they got their wish. Bob, it wasn't that fans wanted them gone for the hell of it; it was more about enacting a proper rebuild. Let's not pretend like this team wasn't shit for the past 7 or so years before they were jettisoned. Bringing them back would have been the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result. I know that was Bowman's specialty, I'm glad it's not Davidson's.
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Post by Granada on May 7, 2024 11:59:04 GMT -6
Where would the team have been last year without Corey Perry's leadership and the example he set? His contract was terminated,he embarrassed the storied franchise and made the Lil GM cry in a press conference......all that for only 4M bucks! All of your arguments about Hall and Perry are completely based in hindsight. Also, Kane wasn't re-signed by Drury because he sucked on New York and they got bounced in the first round. Let's stop sugar-coating everything.
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Post by hsbob on May 7, 2024 12:17:19 GMT -6
JT played 82 and 70 the two years before he was sick and 71 the year after,he only saw 53 the year he was booted due to what he referred to as a 'relapse '. His rookie season and '11-12' were the only two years he missed over 12 games. Taylor Hall missed 21 games to injury the year before he was acquired @31,I don't see how anyone could be surprised by him being injured again. Kane was a month and a half rental in NY,why would Drury feel any loyalty or commitment? He was a 14 1/2 year veteran and 3-time cup winner here who played 1,161 regular season and 136 PO games for a franchise that should have shown loyalty but didn't. Whether you're befuddled or not,JT played em all until he said he wasn't feeling right shortly before the TDL his last year here and he also came back to play later that year. I didn't suggest he 'MIGHT' have overstated his illness because he didn't like Jr,I just don't think he wanted to be 'whored out' for a month and a half for a meager return. Kane had every right to shut it down late in the year with that bad wheel too but he went to NY on one leg so the team could get that all important 2nd rounder. The two players owed the team nothing at that point IMO. The wide-open and nearly limitless checkbook the FO had last summer resulted in the additions of Hall,Perry and AA for 14.25M bucks. That 14.25M resulted in 54 games played,8 goals and 22 points combined between the three players........money well spent in your opinion? Smarter? Foligno on the other hand worked out well. I get it,some fans just wanted K&T gone and some endlessly ragged em their last few years here too,they got their wish. Bob, it wasn't that fans wanted them gone for the hell of it; it was more about enacting a proper rebuild. Let's not pretend like this team wasn't shit for the past 7 or so years before they were jettisoned. Bringing them back would have been the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result. I know that was Bowman's specialty, I'm glad it's not Davidson's. The team around K&T has been shit for many years too with a HC that had no business behind an NHL bench what soever. You call bringing either back for a year or two....even cheaply,"insanity" and suggest "common sense" was used to publicly dump both but these are only your opinions. No less insane and no more full of common sense that anyone else's. NO BODY wanted either back because of dreams of grandeur,some of us just felt their proven championship leadership would have been more helpful than an embarrassing,inappropriate 38yro battling with alcohol,a 31yro who saw TEN games and an over-paid AA who saw 2 goals in his 28 games.
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Post by Granada on May 7, 2024 12:26:07 GMT -6
Bob, it wasn't that fans wanted them gone for the hell of it; it was more about enacting a proper rebuild. Let's not pretend like this team wasn't shit for the past 7 or so years before they were jettisoned. Bringing them back would have been the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result. I know that was Bowman's specialty, I'm glad it's not Davidson's. The team around K&T has been shit for many years too with a HC that had no business behind an NHL bench what soever. You call bringing either back for a year or two....even cheaply,"insanity" and suggest "common sense" was used to publicly dump both but these are only your opinions. No less insane and no more full of common sense that anyone else's. NO BODY wanted either back because of dreams of grandeur,some of us just felt their proven championship leadership would have been more helpful than an embarrassing,inappropriate 38yro battling with alcohol,a 31yro who saw TEN games and an over-paid AA who saw 2 goals in his 28 games. Right, and none of them are here now, which was the right move. Their "proven championship leadership" sure wasn't helping anything the last 7 years they were here. It was time to move on.
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Post by hsbob on May 7, 2024 12:31:54 GMT -6
Where would the team have been last year without Corey Perry's leadership and the example he set? His contract was terminated,he embarrassed the storied franchise and made the Lil GM cry in a press conference......all that for only 4M bucks! All of your arguments about Hall and Perry are completely based in hindsight. Also, Kane wasn't re-signed by Drury because he sucked on New York and they got bounced in the first round. Let's stop sugar-coating everything. Hindsight? Last year's results are all we have to go on and what we got from Hall and Perry for 10M bucks was a disaster.....unless you consider 26 combined starts,6 combined goals and 13 combined points for 10M a success. Kane was on one good leg when he got to the Rags and it showed,what sucked was an inexperienced GM getting taken advantage of by Boston in the Hall deal and signing a 38yro drunk! Time we held Jr accountable..........no more sugar-coating everything the Lil Dude does.
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Post by Granada on May 7, 2024 12:35:35 GMT -6
All of your arguments about Hall and Perry are completely based in hindsight. Also, Kane wasn't re-signed by Drury because he sucked on New York and they got bounced in the first round. Let's stop sugar-coating everything. Hindsight? Last year's results are all we have to go on and what we got from Hall and Perry for 10M bucks was a disaster.....unless you consider 26 combined starts,6 combined goals and 13 combined points for 10M a success. Kane was on one good leg when he got to the Rags and it showed,what sucked was an inexperienced GM getting taken advantage of by Boston in the Hall deal and signing a 38yro drunk! Time we held Jr accountable..........no more sugar-coating everything the Lil Dude does. Yes, hindsight. Same with your Kane argument. No one could have foreseen what would happen with all 3 players. You're not really holding him accountable, you're just mad at him for letting go of your favorite players and are not being objective. You've probably hated him since Day 1.
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Post by hsbob on May 7, 2024 12:37:47 GMT -6
The team around K&T has been shit for many years too with a HC that had no business behind an NHL bench what soever. You call bringing either back for a year or two....even cheaply,"insanity" and suggest "common sense" was used to publicly dump both but these are only your opinions. No less insane and no more full of common sense that anyone else's. NO BODY wanted either back because of dreams of grandeur,some of us just felt their proven championship leadership would have been more helpful than an embarrassing,inappropriate 38yro battling with alcohol,a 31yro who saw TEN games and an over-paid AA who saw 2 goals in his 28 games. Right, and none of them are here now, which was the right move. Their "proven championship leadership" sure wasn't helping anything the last 7 years they were here. It was time to move on. You know what they say bout opinions my friend. Point to the team that was good enough to succeed with Jeremy Colliton in charge,they moved on from him and they'll move on from Jr too. Moving on to cripples and drunks for 10M bucks but it's all just play money for Jr ...........it won't be for long though.
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Post by Granada on May 7, 2024 12:39:38 GMT -6
Right, and none of them are here now, which was the right move. Their "proven championship leadership" sure wasn't helping anything the last 7 years they were here. It was time to move on. You know what they say bout opinions my friend. Point to the team that was good enough to succeed with Jeremy Colliton in charge,they moved on from him and they'll move on from Jr too. Moving on to cripples and drunks for 10M bucks but it's all just play money for Jr ...........it won't be for long though. Bob, why did you bring up Colliton in this argument? Nobody was happier he was jettisoned than me and he has nothing to do with this particular argument (Kane & Toews).
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Post by hsbob on May 7, 2024 12:49:05 GMT -6
Hindsight? Last year's results are all we have to go on and what we got from Hall and Perry for 10M bucks was a disaster.....unless you consider 26 combined starts,6 combined goals and 13 combined points for 10M a success. Kane was on one good leg when he got to the Rags and it showed,what sucked was an inexperienced GM getting taken advantage of by Boston in the Hall deal and signing a 38yro drunk! Time we held Jr accountable..........no more sugar-coating everything the Lil Dude does. Yes, hindsight. Same with your Kane argument. No one could have foreseen what would happen with all 3 players. You're not really holding him accountable, you're just mad at him for letting go of your favorite players and are not being objective. You've probably hated him since Day 1. What the team got in return for the 14.25M spent on Hall,Perry and AA(53gms 8gls and 22pts) was disastrous,even by excuse makers if they're the least bit objective but carry on. I'll admit I have no use for the Lil' Prick.......will you admit the same about Kane and Toews? Rumors are,the league will rename the Bill Masterton Trophy after Corey Perry from here on out.......his leadership was THAT good.
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Post by Granada on May 7, 2024 12:51:24 GMT -6
Yes, hindsight. Same with your Kane argument. No one could have foreseen what would happen with all 3 players. You're not really holding him accountable, you're just mad at him for letting go of your favorite players and are not being objective. You've probably hated him since Day 1. What the team got in return for the 14.25M spent on Hall,Perry and AA(53gms 8gls and 22pts) was disastrous,even by excuse makers if they're the least bit objective but carry on. I'll admit I have no use for the Lil' Prick.......will you admit the same about Kane and Toews? Rumors are,the league will rename the Bill Masterton Trophy after Corey Perry from here on out.......his leadership was THAT good. (To the bolded) Right, in hindsight.
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Post by hsbob on May 7, 2024 12:54:23 GMT -6
You know what they say bout opinions my friend. Point to the team that was good enough to succeed with Jeremy Colliton in charge,they moved on from him and they'll move on from Jr too. Moving on to cripples and drunks for 10M bucks but it's all just play money for Jr ...........it won't be for long though. Bob, why did you bring up Colliton in this argument? Nobody was happier he was jettisoned than me and he has nothing to do with this particular argument (Kane & Toews). I thought he was Kane and Toews' HC for three years. You pointed out the team's sucking and you blamed Kane and Toews for it,I just wanted to remind those who forgot how much the rest of the team and the HC sucked too.
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Granada
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Post by Granada on May 7, 2024 13:07:15 GMT -6
Bob, why did you bring up Colliton in this argument? Nobody was happier he was jettisoned than me and he has nothing to do with this particular argument (Kane & Toews). I thought he was Kane and Toews' HC for three years. You pointed out the team's sucking and you blamed Kane and Toews for it,I just wanted to remind those who forgot how much the rest of the team and the HC sucked too. I never said the team sucking was solely their fault. You brought up their leadership and I countered that their last 7 years was more evident of their leadership falling flat than it was still effective. Context matters here. Colliton had zero control of the room, clearly. The vets had all the control. It didn't make a difference.
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Post by mvr on May 7, 2024 14:28:29 GMT -6
I did not insinuate that "only" Stanley Cup champions can provide quality leadership. I do think, however, Kane and Toews have proven they can do the job quite adequately. Given their track record (Panarin, Debrincat), there was no need to change direction after the firing of the mickey mouse coaching staff. If certain players felt the leaders' voices "were falling flat," would in not make more sense to trade those guys? Davidson is in charge. But he has won nothing at any level. His opinions about leadership are only theories. The evidence suggests Stanley Cup winners actually do make good leaders. There are a plethora of reasons why they wouldn't have been able to be traded (salary, injury history, NMC's, and the fact that KD didn't want eat any salary, etc.). Moving Kane at the deadline on the last year of his contract was a no-brainer for any GM in order maximize return for Kane, even if KD's options were limited. I'll say it again: you guys act like Toews and Kane were the only options out there in terms of leadership. They weren't. KD brought in alternative options that were smarter from a contractual and term standpoint. New Blood for a rebuilding organization is quite logical and common.
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Post by mvr on May 7, 2024 14:39:26 GMT -6
I did not insinuate that "only" Stanley Cup champions can provide quality leadership. I do think, however, Kane and Toews have proven they can do the job quite adequately. Given their track record (Panarin, Debrincat), there was no need to change direction after the firing of the mickey mouse coaching staff. If certain players felt the leaders' voices "were falling flat," would in not make more sense to trade those guys? Davidson is in charge. But he has won nothing at any level. His opinions about leadership are only theories. The evidence suggests Stanley Cup winners actually do make good leaders. There are a plethora of reasons why they wouldn't have been able to be traded (salary, injury history, NMC's, and the fact that KD didn't want eat any salary, etc.). Moving Kane at the deadline on the last year of his contract was a no-brainer for any GM in order maximize return for Kane, even if KD's options were limited. I'll say it again: you guys act like Toews and Kane were the only options out there in terms of leadership. They weren't. KD brought in alternative options that were smarter from a contractual and term standpoint. New Blood for a rebuilding organization is quite logical and common. We know that Kane and Toews were good leaders here for many years. The "alternative options" did not have their track record of success anywhere else. We know the team won three cups under Kane and Toews and we know many young players developed into NHL players under their guidance. But sacrificing quality leadership is only a small part of why Davidson's approach is so upsetting to me. I believe that organizations have a responsibility to their long term employees. When an employee devotes a certain number of years of service to a team, I believe that should matter. Loyalty breeds loyalty. Impressionable kids see how the veterans get treated. Showing proper respect to these guys should matter. We know for a fact that Davidson did not even meet with the Toews/Kane agent. We know he made the decision without even allowing the Hall of Famers to make a contract offer. Terms and the dollars were not even discussed. It is quite likely that both would have signed for less than what Davidson is now paying his imported "leaders."
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Post by mvr on May 7, 2024 14:43:19 GMT -6
JT played 82 and 70 the two years before he was sick and 71 the year after,he only saw 53 the year he was booted due to what he referred to as a 'relapse '. His rookie season and '11-12' were the only two years he missed over 12 games. Taylor Hall missed 21 games to injury the year before he was acquired @31,I don't see how anyone could be surprised by him being injured again. Kane was a month and a half rental in NY,why would Drury feel any loyalty or commitment? He was a 14 1/2 year veteran and 3-time cup winner here who played 1,161 regular season and 136 PO games for a franchise that should have shown loyalty but didn't. Whether you're befuddled or not,JT played em all until he said he wasn't feeling right shortly before the TDL his last year here and he also came back to play later that year. I didn't suggest he 'MIGHT' have overstated his illness because he didn't like Jr,I just don't think he wanted to be 'whored out' for a month and a half for a meager return. Kane had every right to shut it down late in the year with that bad wheel too but he went to NY on one leg so the team could get that all important 2nd rounder. The two players owed the team nothing at that point IMO. The wide-open and nearly limitless checkbook the FO had last summer resulted in the additions of Hall,Perry and AA for 14.25M bucks. That 14.25M resulted in 54 games played,8 goals and 22 points combined between the three players........money well spent in your opinion? Smarter? Foligno on the other hand worked out well. I get it,some fans just wanted K&T gone and some endlessly ragged em their last few years here too,they got their wish. Bob, it wasn't that fans wanted them gone for the hell of it; it was more about enacting a proper rebuild. Let's not pretend like this team wasn't shit for the past 7 or so years before they were jettisoned. Bringing them back would have been the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result. I know that was Bowman's specialty, I'm glad it's not Davidson's. What do you mean by the phrase "a proper rebuild?" Is there only one way to do it? Is there any evidence that teams cannot rebuild while retaining Hall of Famers? I don't think past history (ie Mario Lemieux in Pittsburgh, Montreal - from the 1960s to the 1990s) suggests this to be true by any stretch.
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Post by mvr on May 7, 2024 14:45:57 GMT -6
What the team got in return for the 14.25M spent on Hall,Perry and AA(53gms 8gls and 22pts) was disastrous,even by excuse makers if they're the least bit objective but carry on. I'll admit I have no use for the Lil' Prick.......will you admit the same about Kane and Toews? Rumors are,the league will rename the Bill Masterton Trophy after Corey Perry from here on out.......his leadership was THAT good. (To the bolded) Right, in hindsight. Hindsight maybe ..... but to my mind, very predictable. Many of us last summer objected to the acquisitions and believed Davidson was deliberately tanking for an additional year.
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Post by mvr on May 7, 2024 14:49:12 GMT -6
The team around K&T has been shit for many years too with a HC that had no business behind an NHL bench what soever. You call bringing either back for a year or two....even cheaply,"insanity" and suggest "common sense" was used to publicly dump both but these are only your opinions. No less insane and no more full of common sense that anyone else's. NO BODY wanted either back because of dreams of grandeur,some of us just felt their proven championship leadership would have been more helpful than an embarrassing,inappropriate 38yro battling with alcohol,a 31yro who saw TEN games and an over-paid AA who saw 2 goals in his 28 games. Right, and none of them are here now, which was the right move. Their "proven championship leadership" sure wasn't helping anything the last 7 years they were here. It was time to move on. When you make a comment such as this one, you are suggesting that Kane/Toews leadership was part of the problem Hsbob provided an alternative explanation (ie poor coaching). I agree with his opinion.
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Post by bigbarn27 on May 7, 2024 16:24:26 GMT -6
The team around K&T has been shit for many years too with a HC that had no business behind an NHL bench what soever. You call bringing either back for a year or two....even cheaply,"insanity" and suggest "common sense" was used to publicly dump both but these are only your opinions. No less insane and no more full of common sense that anyone else's. NO BODY wanted either back because of dreams of grandeur,some of us just felt their proven championship leadership would have been more helpful than an embarrassing,inappropriate 38yro battling with alcohol,a 31yro who saw TEN games and an over-paid AA who saw 2 goals in his 28 games. Right, and none of them are here now, which was the right move. Their "proven championship leadership" sure wasn't helping anything the last 7 years they were here. It was time to move on. All I can say is 2 years ago the hawks fought every game Luke got all the credit. This year the team went through the motions most nights. What was different ?
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Post by bigbarn27 on May 7, 2024 16:28:18 GMT -6
The team around K&T has been shit for many years too with a HC that had no business behind an NHL bench what soever. You call bringing either back for a year or two....even cheaply,"insanity" and suggest "common sense" was used to publicly dump both but these are only your opinions. No less insane and no more full of common sense that anyone else's. NO BODY wanted either back because of dreams of grandeur,some of us just felt their proven championship leadership would have been more helpful than an embarrassing,inappropriate 38yro battling with alcohol,a 31yro who saw TEN games and an over-paid AA who saw 2 goals in his 28 games. Right, and none of them are here now, which was the right move. Their "proven championship leadership" sure wasn't helping anything the last 7 years they were here. It was time to move on. So if leadership is based on results Flo is one of the worse leaders out there
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Post by T-man2010 on May 7, 2024 16:46:45 GMT -6
(To the bolded) Right, in hindsight. Hindsight maybe ..... but to my mind, very predictable. Many of us last summer objected to the acquisitions and believed Davidson was deliberately tanking for an additional year. Or maybe no other players wanted to come here.
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Post by 2old4this on May 8, 2024 6:33:46 GMT -6
Hey, has anybody heard anything about JT? He seems to have disappeared.
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Post by T-man2010 on May 8, 2024 6:59:55 GMT -6
Hey, has anybody heard anything about JT? He seems to have disappeared. Not to sure about that. But I wondered if the AV's did or didn't call JT since they signed a retired Parisi in January when Toews would have been a better choice.
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Post by hsbob on May 8, 2024 7:41:16 GMT -6
(To the bolded) Right, in hindsight. Hindsight maybe ..... but to my mind, very predictable. Many of us last summer objected to the acquisitions and believed Davidson was deliberately tanking for an additional year. I don't know how else to assess a trade or FA signing without considering the players performance after being acquired,should we judge player moves on the GM's 'impish' charm and boyish good looks? I've complimented additions like Foligno and Dickinson,and their extensions,Donato was also a value player IMO,but 14.25M on Hall,Perry an AA just didn't work out last year.......by ANY metric.
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Post by OldTimeHawky on May 8, 2024 7:49:11 GMT -6
Right, and none of them are here now, which was the right move. Their "proven championship leadership" sure wasn't helping anything the last 7 years they were here. It was time to move on. You know what they say bout opinions my friend. Point to the team that was good enough to succeed with Jeremy Colliton in charge,they moved on from him and they'll move on from Jr too. Moving on to cripples and drunks for 10M bucks but it's all just play money for Jr ...........it won't be for long though. You've been bashing Hall a lot and now you're calling him a cripple, did you not see the hit that injured his knee? Very reckless. Plus he injured it last season and that's why his production dropped and he only played 61gms, but he played 81gms the season before, pretty good for a cripple. KD seems pretty smart with his "play money", he hasn't taken on long contracts that go past Bedards ELC, and the contracts he signed have been refreshing compared to the one's Stan handed out. He probably would've started at 6 million a year for Vlasic, full NMC.
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Post by Granada on May 8, 2024 9:45:26 GMT -6
There are a plethora of reasons why they wouldn't have been able to be traded (salary, injury history, NMC's, and the fact that KD didn't want eat any salary, etc.). Moving Kane at the deadline on the last year of his contract was a no-brainer for any GM in order maximize return for Kane, even if KD's options were limited. I'll say it again: you guys act like Toews and Kane were the only options out there in terms of leadership. They weren't. KD brought in alternative options that were smarter from a contractual and term standpoint. New Blood for a rebuilding organization is quite logical and common. We know that Kane and Toews were good leaders here for many years. The "alternative options" did not have their track record of success anywhere else. We know the team won three cups under Kane and Toews and we know many young players developed into NHL players under their guidance. But sacrificing quality leadership is only a small part of why Davidson's approach is so upsetting to me. I believe that organizations have a responsibility to their long term employees. When an employee devotes a certain number of years of service to a team, I believe that should matter. Loyalty breeds loyalty. Impressionable kids see how the veterans get treated. Showing proper respect to these guys should matter. We know for a fact that Davidson did not even meet with the Toews/Kane agent. We know he made the decision without even allowing the Hall of Famers to make a contract offer. Terms and the dollars were not even discussed. It is quite likely that both would have signed for less than what Davidson is now paying his imported "leaders." They were both long-time letter-wearers on other clubs and Corey Perry won a Stanley Cup, and both have won Hart trophies, but okay.
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Post by Granada on May 8, 2024 9:48:00 GMT -6
Bob, it wasn't that fans wanted them gone for the hell of it; it was more about enacting a proper rebuild. Let's not pretend like this team wasn't shit for the past 7 or so years before they were jettisoned. Bringing them back would have been the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result. I know that was Bowman's specialty, I'm glad it's not Davidson's. What do you mean by the phrase "a proper rebuild?" Is there only one way to do it? Is there any evidence that teams cannot rebuild while retaining Hall of Famers? I don't think past history (ie Mario Lemieux in Pittsburgh, Montreal - from the 1960s to the 1990s) suggests this to be true by any stretch. Not a soft rebuild, which Bowman was redoing. Yes, there is only one way to truly do it; and when it's truly needed, it should be done. Pittsburgh catered to their veterans and now they're fucked because they gave up all their draft capital, when they could have flipped those veterans.
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Post by Granada on May 8, 2024 9:50:21 GMT -6
Right, and none of them are here now, which was the right move. Their "proven championship leadership" sure wasn't helping anything the last 7 years they were here. It was time to move on. When you make a comment such as this one, you are suggesting that Kane/Toews leadership was part of the problem Hsbob provided an alternative explanation (ie poor coaching). I agree with his opinion. Of course you do, it's convenient for your argument. You're using Colliton as a scapegoat. They all needed to go -- players and coach -- and they did. The end. Assigning zero blame on the players themselves is misguided.
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