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Post by vadarx on Jun 4, 2021 18:53:08 GMT -6
thus far I've seen Lysel, Coronato, McTavish, and Sillinger taken by the 'hawks at 11. well, I've seen a couple other names too, but they seemed like one-offs. I think we will see the draft board change over and over again before July, though. I can't state how badly I want Wallstedt to drop to us. he is the player I want the most right now, tbh, and I KNOW the fucking wangs will take him and turn him into Vasilevskiy 2.0... I still can’t believe what Yzerman got for Mantha. So they can take the goalie and still get a usable player a few picks later. Columbus has three first round picks although one is going to be pretty deep. Surely we have some chaff in the system to entice them and get that Leaf pick off of them. This isn’t the draft where we get high end talent, maybe that’s in the next couple of drafts, but the right picks here could or should get the quality support players we’ll also need. That’s why I’m liking the most talented players that also have the words “hard working”, “no quit” and “tenacity” in their draft profile. Guys like McTavish, Sillinger, Coronato or maybe even Fyodor Svechkov, one of the outliers you might have been talking about. I know, it really annoys me that the caps were that stupid. no one should've given them a first for him, but I believe the reason the caps did was so the wangs would take Panik as well. |
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Post by vadarx on Jun 4, 2021 18:55:47 GMT -6
I still can’t believe what Yzerman got for Mantha. So they can take the goalie and still get a usable player a few picks later. Columbus has three first round picks although one is going to be pretty deep. Surely we have some chaff in the system to entice them and get that Leaf pick off of them. This isn’t the draft where we get high end talent, maybe that’s in the next couple of drafts, but the right picks here could or should get the quality support players we’ll also need. That’s why I’m liking the most talented players that also have the words “hard working”, “no quit” and “tenacity” in their draft profile. Guys like McTavish, Sillinger, Coronato or maybe even Fyodor Svechkov, one of the outliers you might have been talking about. I’d say McTavish should be the kid unless he’s gone. I don’t think he’ll ever be top 20 in league scoring. But he may be that Bolland type player that kicks ass. We need role players and secondary scoring. We need NHL players. Picking at 11 in a weaker maybe unknown draft, probably not gonna get a future hall of Famer. But, we can get a useful player that can be ready in a year or so. Another smaller kid going the US college route is just depressing beyond belief. I don’t mind a kid going for a year. But when they stay for 3 years it barely pans out. I’d rather them head to Rockford after one year. They can always return to college if it doesn’t really pan out. So at this point I’d hope McTavish is the guy. He seems almost like a Mike Richards type player. A heat and soul guy. He’ll never lead your team in scoring, but he leads in many other ways!!! yeah, he is the guy that I hope drops to us at 11 (besides Wallstedt, but I know that won't happen). I don't know if he will, but I agree that he seems like a solid NHLer, nothing special but a guy that is a leader in the locker room and on the ice and does the dirty work necessary for a team to succeed. plus he has the skills to contribute on the offensive end and he has the size to play in the playoffs. |
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Post by tincup on Jun 4, 2021 18:58:09 GMT -6
I still can’t believe what Yzerman got for Mantha. So they can take the goalie and still get a usable player a few picks later. Columbus has three first round picks although one is going to be pretty deep. Surely we have some chaff in the system to entice them and get that Leaf pick off of them. This isn’t the draft where we get high end talent, maybe that’s in the next couple of drafts, but the right picks here could or should get the quality support players we’ll also need. That’s why I’m liking the most talented players that also have the words “hard working”, “no quit” and “tenacity” in their draft profile. Guys like McTavish, Sillinger, Coronato or maybe even Fyodor Svechkov, one of the outliers you might have been talking about. I’d say McTavish should be the kid unless he’s gone. I don’t think he’ll ever be top 20 in league scoring. But he may be that Bolland type player that kicks ass. We need role players and secondary scoring. We need NHL players. Picking at 11 in a weaker maybe unknown draft, probably not gonna get a future hall of Famer. But, we can get a useful player that can be ready in a year or so. Another smaller kid going the US college route is just depressing beyond belief. I don’t mind a kid going for a year. But when they stay for 3 years it barely pans out. I’d rather them head to Rockford after one year. They can always return to college if it doesn’t really pan out. So at this point I’d hope McTavish is the guy. He seems almost like a Mike Richards type player. A heat and soul guy. He’ll never lead your team in scoring, but he leads in many other ways!!! MvTavish was my pick back on page one of this thread and he’s still my favourite but he’s got such good buzz now I can’t see him being there for us. Probably why my second forward pick is a somewhat similar player in Sillinger, M.H. Tiger that had to go the USHL route to play this year which actually might have hurt his standing in the draft. Not going to college as far as I know. Probably back to the Dub. And after rewatching some under-18 games again and not being mesmerized by Michkov this time I’ve gotten a bit of a crush on Svechkov, a real nice, smart and well developed player on both sides of the puck, fourth ranked Euro skater but I like him more than Chibrikov right now. Going to the Ska system but I’d wait on him for a couple of years. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 4, 2021 19:48:05 GMT -6
I’d say McTavish should be the kid unless he’s gone. I don’t think he’ll ever be top 20 in league scoring. But he may be that Bolland type player that kicks ass. We need role players and secondary scoring. We need NHL players. Picking at 11 in a weaker maybe unknown draft, probably not gonna get a future hall of Famer. But, we can get a useful player that can be ready in a year or so. Another smaller kid going the US college route is just depressing beyond belief. I don’t mind a kid going for a year. But when they stay for 3 years it barely pans out. I’d rather them head to Rockford after one year. They can always return to college if it doesn’t really pan out. So at this point I’d hope McTavish is the guy. He seems almost like a Mike Richards type player. A heat and soul guy. He’ll never lead your team in scoring, but he leads in many other ways!!! yeah, he is the guy that I hope drops to us at 11 (besides Wallstedt, but I know that won't happen). I don't know if he will, but I agree that he seems like a solid NHLer, nothing special but a guy that is a leader in the locker room and on the ice and does the dirty work necessary for a team to succeed. plus he has the skills to contribute on the offensive end and he has the size to play in the playoffs. I was listening to Hextal the other day talking about how there’s a massive shortage of guys who do the dirty work. Hitters, grinders, shot blockers. There’s a shortage of them and the teams that load up on them destroy in the playoffs. Now is the time to load up on these types. We have exactly ZERO of these guys. Hagel is not one of them. I’m talking the Killorns, Tuchs, Wilson’s, Anderson’s, Gallagher’s, etc etc. We need a couple guys like that. I believe McTavish is cut from that same mold!!! |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 4, 2021 19:54:15 GMT -6
If Fabian Lysel is there at 11 he should be on the Hawks list. Might be the best offensive player in the draft, he's very fast with hands and IQ to match. thus far I've seen Lysel, Coronato, McTavish, and Sillinger taken by the 'hawks at 11. well, I've seen a couple other names too, but they seemed like one-offs. I think we will see the draft board change over and over again before July, though. I can't state how badly I want Wallstedt to drop to us. he is the player I want the most right now, tbh, and I KNOW the fucking wangs will take him and turn him into Vasilevskiy 2.0... If the Hawks can trade up with Detroit by using Boqvist as the sweetener, it might do it, then take Wallstedt. If not, there's some decent hard working kids with skill around 11. If the Hawks don't trade the #11 lets hope their 4th time drafting in that spot makes them 50/50 drafting there. |
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Post by vonbeck on Jun 4, 2021 20:24:03 GMT -6
Besides Jeremy Roenick and Doug Wilson when have the Hawks picked well in the mid-first round? Oh that's right... Never! I have no faith in their pick especially when that mope Stan is in charge...
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Post by shooter61 on Jun 4, 2021 21:09:46 GMT -6
2010 Kevin Hayes,24th,,2011 Phillip Danault 26th,,2012 Teuvo Teravainen 18th,,2013 Ryan Hartman 30th,,2014 Nick Schmaltz 20th,,Jokiharju 29th in17,now not the caliber of JR and Wilson, but a few i would like to have back , I always said it's not our drafting but the bone head Gm , that keeps giving them away , makes me saad LOL
Remember we had Saad and breadman, LOL and traded the both of them, and then for each other, and lost all three trades ,
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Post by number9 on Jun 4, 2021 22:01:30 GMT -6
If it were up to me, I would try to trade up and get Edvinson. He's going to be a sure fire top pairing defenseman. A couple of years ago when the Hawks picked Dach at number 3, I remember Craig Button saying they needed a Dman and that they didn't have a top pairing guy in the pipeline, and that Boquist was not going to be that good. Now he's saying Edvinson is going to be a top pairing guy for sure and he's a lot like Hedman.
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Post by vadarx on Jun 4, 2021 22:58:34 GMT -6
If it were up to me, I would try to trade up and get Edvinson. He's going to be a sure fire top pairing defenseman. A couple of years ago when the Hawks picked Dach at number 3, I remember Craig Button saying they needed a Dman and that they didn't have a top pairing guy in the pipeline, and that Boquist was not going to be that good. Now he's saying Edvinson is going to be a top pairing guy for sure and he's a lot like Hedman. depending on what we had to trade to move up, I could be on board with that. |
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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 5, 2021 5:51:12 GMT -6
i saw matty beniers was maybe going #2. i hope this ankle injury isn't as bad as it looks because it looks nasty. beniers was listed a scratch for tonight's game against canada but he took the warmups but not 100% sure he's playing. so that horrible looking injury wasn't near as bad as it looked. so good news for him, maybe not so good for canada. either way....i'm glad the kid's alright. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 5, 2021 8:19:08 GMT -6
If it were up to me, I would try to trade up and get Edvinson. He's going to be a sure fire top pairing defenseman. A couple of years ago when the Hawks picked Dach at number 3, I remember Craig Button saying they needed a Dman and that they didn't have a top pairing guy in the pipeline, and that Boquist was not going to be that good. Now he's saying Edvinson is going to be a top pairing guy for sure and he's a lot like Hedman. Button knows his stuff. He was saying how the Hawks should’ve taken Bowen Byram how he’s gonna be a #1 Dman. The Avs aren’t rushing him, and for the time he got this year, he looked unbelievable. I’m not saying Dach is a nothing and he’s worthless. I think he’ll be a good player. But we needed that stud dman and he was right there, but passed on. This is why I’ve said for a while we need a fresh set of eyes on this org. The GM now is “chasing the dream”. It’s over. But he’s too tied to the idea that he can rebuild on the fly. He can’t even build, let alone do it on the fly. This’ll be another long time before things get better. The D is terrible and hasn’t been properly addressed. It won’t change unless there’s real change!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 5, 2021 8:44:27 GMT -6
If it were up to me, I would try to trade up and get Edvinson. He's going to be a sure fire top pairing defenseman. A couple of years ago when the Hawks picked Dach at number 3, I remember Craig Button saying they needed a Dman and that they didn't have a top pairing guy in the pipeline, and that Boquist was not going to be that good. Now he's saying Edvinson is going to be a top pairing guy for sure and he's a lot like Hedman. Button knows his stuff. He was saying how the Hawks should’ve taken Bowen Byram how he’s gonna be a #1 Dman. The Avs aren’t rushing him, and for the time he got this year, he looked unbelievable. I’m not saying Dach is a nothing and he’s worthless. I think he’ll be a good player. But we needed that stud dman and he was right there, but passed on. This is why I’ve said for a while we need a fresh set of eyes on this org. The GM now is “chasing the dream”. It’s over. But he’s too tied to the idea that he can rebuild on the fly. He can’t even build, let alone do it on the fly. This’ll be another long time before things get better. The D is terrible and hasn’t been properly addressed. It won’t change unless there’s real change!!! Passed on Noah Dobson that year too.....right? He's gonna be a good one....as we thought back then. I haven't put much into who's available this time around.........should I beholding my breath or holding my nose? |
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Post by BigT on Jun 5, 2021 9:01:35 GMT -6
Button knows his stuff. He was saying how the Hawks should’ve taken Bowen Byram how he’s gonna be a #1 Dman. The Avs aren’t rushing him, and for the time he got this year, he looked unbelievable. I’m not saying Dach is a nothing and he’s worthless. I think he’ll be a good player. But we needed that stud dman and he was right there, but passed on. This is why I’ve said for a while we need a fresh set of eyes on this org. The GM now is “chasing the dream”. It’s over. But he’s too tied to the idea that he can rebuild on the fly. He can’t even build, let alone do it on the fly. This’ll be another long time before things get better. The D is terrible and hasn’t been properly addressed. It won’t change unless there’s real change!!! Passed on Noah Dobson that year too.....right? He's gonna be a good one....as we thought back then. I haven't put much into who's available this time around.........should I beholding my breath or holding my nose? You’re absolutely right about Dobson. Kid had just won the Memorial Cup and was the best player in that tourney. No offense to Boqvist, but he looks like the defensive version Nail Yakupov. Imagine if we had Dobson, Byram, Mitchell and Beaudin? That looks a shit ton better moving forward. As far as this year, I would hold my nose. I doubt there’s PK88 version 2.0 awaiting. I think the org should give up on finding gems in the middle of the first round. And aim to get the players we need to form a gawd damn team. This McTavish kid is like a Mike Richards type player. Heart and soul guy. I’d look to start there. Goes to the net hard and will be a playoff warrior. Once again here’s a kid if available, the regime will pass on him. I’m gonna look for this article I read the other day. Not a long one but a good one. Hextall was talking about how the league has a shortage of tougher players, guys who do the dirty work. And it’s hard to find them. Last year, Dawson Mercer was picked one pick after the Hawks pick. But they get another skilled kid that has concussion concerns. It’s like the regime is constantly trying to prove everyone else wrong. Mercer is a tough kid and will be another one of those kids that does what it takes!!! |
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Post by BigT on Jun 5, 2021 9:05:00 GMT -6
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Post by hsbob on Jun 5, 2021 9:16:35 GMT -6
Passed on Noah Dobson that year too.....right? He's gonna be a good one....as we thought back then. I haven't put much into who's available this time around.........should I beholding my breath or holding my nose? You’re absolutely right about Dobson. Kid had just won the Memorial Cup and was the best player in that tourney. No offense to Boqvist, but he looks like the defensive version Nail Yakupov. Imagine if we had Dobson, Byram, Mitchell and Beaudin? That looks a shit ton better moving forward. As far as this year, I would hold my nose. I doubt there’s PK88 version 2.0 awaiting. I think the org should give up on finding gems in the middle of the first round. And aim to get the players we need to form a gawd damn team. This McTavish kid is like a Mike Richards type player. Heart and soul guy. I’d look to start there. Goes to the net hard and will be a playoff warrior. Once again here’s a kid if available, the regime will pass on him. I’m gonna look for this article I read the other day. Not a long one but a good one. Hextall was talking about how the league has a shortage of tougher players, guys who do the dirty work. And it’s hard to find them. Last year, Dawson Mercer was picked one pick after the Hawks pick. But they get another skilled kid that has concussion concerns. It’s like the regime is constantly trying to prove everyone else wrong. Mercer is a tough kid and will be another one of those kids that does what it takes!!! I thought Boqvist woulda been quicker and more offensively skilled but to be fair to him.......maybe he just wasn't ready @19. FEW are! |
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Post by tincup on Jun 5, 2021 9:42:14 GMT -6
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Post by jacksalmon on Jun 5, 2021 10:47:06 GMT -6
I still can’t believe what Yzerman got for Mantha. So they can take the goalie and still get a usable player a few picks later. Columbus has three first round picks although one is going to be pretty deep. Surely we have some chaff in the system to entice them and get that Leaf pick off of them. This isn’t the draft where we get high end talent, maybe that’s in the next couple of drafts, but the right picks here could or should get the quality support players we’ll also need. That’s why I’m liking the most talented players that also have the words “hard working”, “no quit” and “tenacity” in their draft profile. Guys like McTavish, Sillinger, Coronato or maybe even Fyodor Svechkov, one of the outliers you might have been talking about. I’d say McTavish should be the kid unless he’s gone. I don’t think he’ll ever be top 20 in league scoring. But he may be that Bolland type player that kicks ass. We need role players and secondary scoring. We need NHL players. Picking at 11 in a weaker maybe unknown draft, probably not gonna get a future hall of Famer. But, we can get a useful player that can be ready in a year or so. Another smaller kid going the US college route is just depressing beyond belief. I don’t mind a kid going for a year. But when they stay for 3 years it barely pans out. I’d rather them head to Rockford after one year. They can always return to college if it doesn’t really pan out. So at this point I’d hope McTavish is the guy. He seems almost like a Mike Richards type player. A heat and soul guy. He’ll never lead your team in scoring, but he leads in many other ways!!! I'll play the advocate of the devil here. While McTavish might have been fine with Toews and Kane around five years ago, where is the scoring going to come from in the post Kane/Toews era besides the Cat, if they take a "Bolland type player that kicks ass"? Come to think of it, it seems pretty weird/odd to me that since the last Cup, other than the Cat, they have no forwards/centers that are worth much. Maybe that is why they have no puck possession and their 5 on 5 offense sucks. So, they end up with the Cat and Bolland II. Bolland I was a good role player and I suspect Bolland II will be no more. They will still have so far to go that I fear the journey cannot be completed. If they do get slightly better, they will still not get much opportunity from a draft that long ago produced Kane, Keith and Toews. It is guys like that will transform their team and they have no way to get them. I realize that they must continue to try to rebuild the team, but, I suspect it will be best for Hawk fans to be realistic and understand that this team will be middle of the pack for years to come, if they are lucky. Good draft picks in the next few years have the potential to turn them into the 10th best team in the league, instead of the 20th best, as they struggle to break out of the middle of the pack. I doubt that they will come streaking up on the outside to take the Kentucky Derby by a length. They will be in that indistinguishable glob of horses in the middle. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Jun 5, 2021 10:59:07 GMT -6
If it were up to me, I would try to trade up and get Edvinson. He's going to be a sure fire top pairing defenseman. A couple of years ago when the Hawks picked Dach at number 3, I remember Craig Button saying they needed a Dman and that they didn't have a top pairing guy in the pipeline, and that Boquist was not going to be that good. Now he's saying Edvinson is going to be a top pairing guy for sure and he's a lot like Hedman. Button knows his stuff. He was saying how the Hawks should’ve taken Bowen Byram how he’s gonna be a #1 Dman. The Avs aren’t rushing him, and for the time he got this year, he looked unbelievable. I’m not saying Dach is a nothing and he’s worthless. I think he’ll be a good player. But we needed that stud dman and he was right there, but passed on. This is why I’ve said for a while we need a fresh set of eyes on this org. The GM now is “chasing the dream”. It’s over. But he’s too tied to the idea that he can rebuild on the fly. He can’t even build, let alone do it on the fly. This’ll be another long time before things get better. The D is terrible and hasn’t been properly addressed. It won’t change unless there’s real change!!! I am only posting because you said "the D is terrible". I read this after I posted that the lack of quality forwards is what makes their 5 on 5 offense terrible. So, if you and I are right and the defense and the offense are terrible, what else is left? |
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Post by tincup on Jun 5, 2021 11:25:14 GMT -6
I’d say McTavish should be the kid unless he’s gone. I don’t think he’ll ever be top 20 in league scoring. But he may be that Bolland type player that kicks ass. We need role players and secondary scoring. We need NHL players. Picking at 11 in a weaker maybe unknown draft, probably not gonna get a future hall of Famer. But, we can get a useful player that can be ready in a year or so. Another smaller kid going the US college route is just depressing beyond belief. I don’t mind a kid going for a year. But when they stay for 3 years it barely pans out. I’d rather them head to Rockford after one year. They can always return to college if it doesn’t really pan out. So at this point I’d hope McTavish is the guy. He seems almost like a Mike Richards type player. A heat and soul guy. He’ll never lead your team in scoring, but he leads in many other ways!!! I'll play the advocate of the devil here. While McTavish might have been fine with Toews and Kane around five years ago, where is the scoring going to come from in the post Kane/Toews era besides the Cat, if they take a "Bolland type player that kicks ass"? Come to think of it, it seems pretty weird/odd to me that since the last Cup, other than the Cat, they have no forwards/centers that are worth much. Maybe that is why they have no puck possession and their 5 on 5 offense sucks. So, they end up with the Cat and Bolland II. Bolland I was a good role player and I suspect Bolland II will be no more. They will still have so far to go that I fear the journey cannot be completed. If they do get slightly better, they will still not get much opportunity from a draft that long ago produced Kane, Keith and Toews. It is guys like that will transform their team and they have no way to get them. I realize that they must continue to try to rebuild the team, but, I suspect it will be best for Hawk fans to be realistic and understand that this team will be middle of the pack for years to come, if they are lucky. Good draft picks in the next few years have the potential to turn them into the 10th best team in the league, instead of the 20th best, as they struggle to break out of the middle of the pack. I doubt that they will come streaking up on the outside to take the Kentucky Derby by a length. They will be in that indistinguishable glob of horses in the middle. Vegas is in the western semis with a legitimate chance to go all the way to the finals, and they have less first rounders playing for them than the Hawks. At this point there’s nothing wrong about building a quality core of support players with the right attitude and talent to augment the higher end talent you hope they’ll add in the future. Thirty two teams all fighting for the same things and the same players. This might take time and why I agree with others here that a different eye is required after some suspect or wasted opportunities in the last several drafts, poor contract decisions and never mind some of the other dartboard moves like picking up other teams failed #1’s. These were desperation moves that were required to cover up for those same mistakes. What kind of culture are they trying to build here? Can anyone say what identity the Hawks carry now? The closest analogy to me is that they play rope-a-dope for most of the game, take a lot of punishment and hope for the punchers chance to pull one out of the bag. We seriously need new people to oversee this. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Jun 5, 2021 12:01:37 GMT -6
You’re absolutely right about Dobson. Kid had just won the Memorial Cup and was the best player in that tourney. No offense to Boqvist, but he looks like the defensive version Nail Yakupov. Imagine if we had Dobson, Byram, Mitchell and Beaudin? That looks a shit ton better moving forward. As far as this year, I would hold my nose. I doubt there’s PK88 version 2.0 awaiting. I think the org should give up on finding gems in the middle of the first round. And aim to get the players we need to form a gawd damn team. This McTavish kid is like a Mike Richards type player. Heart and soul guy. I’d look to start there. Goes to the net hard and will be a playoff warrior. Once again here’s a kid if available, the regime will pass on him. I’m gonna look for this article I read the other day. Not a long one but a good one. Hextall was talking about how the league has a shortage of tougher players, guys who do the dirty work. And it’s hard to find them. Last year, Dawson Mercer was picked one pick after the Hawks pick. But they get another skilled kid that has concussion concerns. It’s like the regime is constantly trying to prove everyone else wrong. Mercer is a tough kid and will be another one of those kids that does what it takes!!! I thought Boqvist woulda been quicker and more offensively skilled but to be fair to him.......maybe he just wasn't ready @19. FEW are! A couple concussions and hard hits knocked the skill right out of him. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 5, 2021 12:03:50 GMT -6
You’re absolutely right about Dobson. Kid had just won the Memorial Cup and was the best player in that tourney. No offense to Boqvist, but he looks like the defensive version Nail Yakupov. Imagine if we had Dobson, Byram, Mitchell and Beaudin? That looks a shit ton better moving forward. As far as this year, I would hold my nose. I doubt there’s PK88 version 2.0 awaiting. I think the org should give up on finding gems in the middle of the first round. And aim to get the players we need to form a gawd damn team. This McTavish kid is like a Mike Richards type player. Heart and soul guy. I’d look to start there. Goes to the net hard and will be a playoff warrior. Once again here’s a kid if available, the regime will pass on him. I’m gonna look for this article I read the other day. Not a long one but a good one. Hextall was talking about how the league has a shortage of tougher players, guys who do the dirty work. And it’s hard to find them. Last year, Dawson Mercer was picked one pick after the Hawks pick. But they get another skilled kid that has concussion concerns. It’s like the regime is constantly trying to prove everyone else wrong. Mercer is a tough kid and will be another one of those kids that does what it takes!!! I thought Boqvist woulda been quicker and more offensively skilled but to be fair to him.......maybe he just wasn't ready @19. FEW are! You’re absolutely right. He wasn’t and still isn’t ready. He was rushed, now he may just not have the confidence abs with 5-6 concussions above his neck, he may just be damaged goods too. He needed a full 2 years overseas. I think it may be beneficial to send him to play a full year in Sweden, let him get the handle of pro hockey. Maybe he pans out? But we need some d help bad due to these kids not helping much!!! |
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Post by Tater on Jun 5, 2021 12:35:21 GMT -6
Vegas is in the western semis with a legitimate chance to go all the way to the finals, and they have less first rounders playing for them than the Hawks. At this point there’s nothing wrong about building a quality core of support players with the right attitude and talent to augment the higher end talent you hope they’ll add in the future. Thirty two teams all fighting for the same things and the same players. This might take time and why I agree with others here that a different eye is required after some suspect or wasted opportunities in the last several drafts, poor contract decisions and never mind some of the other dartboard moves like picking up other teams failed #1’s. These were desperation moves that were required to cover up for those same mistakes. What kind of culture are they trying to build here? Can anyone say what identity the Hawks carry now? The closest analogy to me is that they play rope-a-dope for most of the game, take a lot of punishment and hope for the punchers chance to pull one out of the bag. We seriously need new people to oversee this. Great post tincup. You said it much better than I could have.
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Post by jacksalmon on Jun 6, 2021 11:29:50 GMT -6
I'll play the advocate of the devil here. While McTavish might have been fine with Toews and Kane around five years ago, where is the scoring going to come from in the post Kane/Toews era besides the Cat, if they take a "Bolland type player that kicks ass"? Come to think of it, it seems pretty weird/odd to me that since the last Cup, other than the Cat, they have no forwards/centers that are worth much. Maybe that is why they have no puck possession and their 5 on 5 offense sucks. So, they end up with the Cat and Bolland II. Bolland I was a good role player and I suspect Bolland II will be no more. They will still have so far to go that I fear the journey cannot be completed. If they do get slightly better, they will still not get much opportunity from a draft that long ago produced Kane, Keith and Toews. It is guys like that will transform their team and they have no way to get them. I realize that they must continue to try to rebuild the team, but, I suspect it will be best for Hawk fans to be realistic and understand that this team will be middle of the pack for years to come, if they are lucky. Good draft picks in the next few years have the potential to turn them into the 10th best team in the league, instead of the 20th best, as they struggle to break out of the middle of the pack. I doubt that they will come streaking up on the outside to take the Kentucky Derby by a length. They will be in that indistinguishable glob of horses in the middle. Vegas is in the western semis with a legitimate chance to go all the way to the finals, and they have less first rounders playing for them than the Hawks. At this point there’s nothing wrong about building a quality core of support players with the right attitude and talent to augment the higher end talent you hope they’ll add in the future. Thirty two teams all fighting for the same things and the same players. This might take time and why I agree with others here that a different eye is required after some suspect or wasted opportunities in the last several drafts, poor contract decisions and never mind some of the other dartboard moves like picking up other teams failed #1’s. These were desperation moves that were required to cover up for those same mistakes. What kind of culture are they trying to build here? Can anyone say what identity the Hawks carry now? The closest analogy to me is that they play rope-a-dope for most of the game, take a lot of punishment and hope for the punchers chance to pull one out of the bag. We seriously need new people to oversee this. I posted about how I believe their current defense and offense is below par. The latter will only get worse after Kane/Toews are gone and Toews may be gone already. But, as you say, to rebuild a team needs a master planner, who has insights into players that are above average. It seems to me that other than DCat, the drafts of the last few years are a reflection of the lack of rebuilding skills possessed by the current planners. I agree that they need new people to oversee their rebuilding. Even then, it will be difficult. In several years, one will marvel at how lucky the Hawks were to have gotten Keith, Toews and Kane in the drafts of that era. I can't see anything close to that happening again. So, I don't know how the rebuilding can produce a winner any time soon. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 7, 2021 8:33:41 GMT -6
today's useless factoid o' the day. 1 hit out of 3 isn't very good for a #11 pick. hopefully we can move to .500 after this next draft. It is not useless. It explains why it is hard to get excited about a #11 pick and why it is so difficult to rebuild a team. Drafting guys like Kane and Toews happens once in a lifetime. Very true...however, good GMs and good scouts can pick up diamonds in the rough deep in the draft occasionally. See also: Datsyuk. Hell, we had a guys *everyone* passed over in Panarin, but we gave him away. In all honesty I for the Saad-for-Panarin trade at the time, but that completely didn't work. I'm just hoping we pull up someone at 11 (or on a trade-up) that is not fake-tits-on-a-zombie level of worthless like Beach. If it were up to me, I would try to trade up and get Edvinson. He's going to be a sure fire top pairing defenseman. A couple of years ago when the Hawks picked Dach at number 3, I remember Craig Button saying they needed a Dman and that they didn't have a top pairing guy in the pipeline, and that Boquist was not going to be that good. Now he's saying Edvinson is going to be a top pairing guy for sure and he's a lot like Hedman. See below since this goes into the next post... If it were up to me, I would try to trade up and get Edvinson. He's going to be a sure fire top pairing defenseman. A couple of years ago when the Hawks picked Dach at number 3, I remember Craig Button saying they needed a Dman and that they didn't have a top pairing guy in the pipeline, and that Boquist was not going to be that good. Now he's saying Edvinson is going to be a top pairing guy for sure and he's a lot like Hedman. Button knows his stuff. He was saying how the Hawks should’ve taken Bowen Byram how he’s gonna be a #1 Dman. The Avs aren’t rushing him, and for the time he got this year, he looked unbelievable. I’m not saying Dach is a nothing and he’s worthless. I think he’ll be a good player. But we needed that stud dman and he was right there, but passed on. This is why I’ve said for a while we need a fresh set of eyes on this org. The GM now is “chasing the dream”. It’s over. But he’s too tied to the idea that he can rebuild on the fly. He can’t even build, let alone do it on the fly. This’ll be another long time before things get better. The D is terrible and hasn’t been properly addressed. It won’t change unless there’s real change!!! Bingo. Until you have a solid D-corps, you can never have too many prospect D-men. I think Bowman the Beancounter got too complacent with the 3 guys we had for prospects, in some cases tried to rush them, then assumed if we pulled in Dach he might be the next Toews (even though Toews had another year to ripen). While I think it's too early to tell what Dach will be, I was all over Byram. Sure, he was a few years out buy if he was developed right he should end up being solid and a backup plan if Beaudin, Mitchell, and Boqvist don't pan out (especially on the defensive end). The problem is, as I've harped on many times, Bowman the Lesser has to be the smartest guy in the room, and knowing Byram would need some development, he likely wanted someone to plug in now. Hence Dach. Hell, we're seeing in in Boqvist as well. If he was a hockey mind as opposed to a legume-reckoner, he might have realized that the only way to have rebuilt on the fly would have been to start sometime around 2017-2018. I agree that he likley can't build, let alone rebuild, and it much to late to try on the fly. I also agree that things likely don't get better until he gets ousted. Button knows his stuff. He was saying how the Hawks should’ve taken Bowen Byram how he’s gonna be a #1 Dman. The Avs aren’t rushing him, and for the time he got this year, he looked unbelievable. I’m not saying Dach is a nothing and he’s worthless. I think he’ll be a good player. But we needed that stud dman and he was right there, but passed on. This is why I’ve said for a while we need a fresh set of eyes on this org. The GM now is “chasing the dream”. It’s over. But he’s too tied to the idea that he can rebuild on the fly. He can’t even build, let alone do it on the fly. This’ll be another long time before things get better. The D is terrible and hasn’t been properly addressed. It won’t change unless there’s real change!!! I am only posting because you said "the D is terrible". I read this after I posted that the lack of quality forwards is what makes their 5 on 5 offense terrible. So, if you and I are right and the defense and the offense are terrible, what else is left? Goaltending? I'm not hung up on Lankienen being good or bad yet; it's far too early in his career. His 1st-year numbers are worse than Crawford's were but then again, he's also behind a worse D--so .909 with no D vs. .914 with a great D might be equivalent...and we saw him getting exposed a bit late in the season so if he can improvise, adapt, and overcome he might just be a starter-quality goaltender. Truthfully, the 'hawks need just about everything. At 11 they can't afford to be picky unless what's remaining at 11 are a couple of players that are about the same level. In that case IMHO you'd want to err for a D-man since they take longer to develop, but I think the 'hawks should choose the best guy who remains. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Jun 7, 2021 8:43:37 GMT -6
I'll play the advocate of the devil here. While McTavish might have been fine with Toews and Kane around five years ago, where is the scoring going to come from in the post Kane/Toews era besides the Cat, if they take a "Bolland type player that kicks ass"? Come to think of it, it seems pretty weird/odd to me that since the last Cup, other than the Cat, they have no forwards/centers that are worth much. Maybe that is why they have no puck possession and their 5 on 5 offense sucks. So, they end up with the Cat and Bolland II. Bolland I was a good role player and I suspect Bolland II will be no more. They will still have so far to go that I fear the journey cannot be completed. If they do get slightly better, they will still not get much opportunity from a draft that long ago produced Kane, Keith and Toews. It is guys like that will transform their team and they have no way to get them. I realize that they must continue to try to rebuild the team, but, I suspect it will be best for Hawk fans to be realistic and understand that this team will be middle of the pack for years to come, if they are lucky. Good draft picks in the next few years have the potential to turn them into the 10th best team in the league, instead of the 20th best, as they struggle to break out of the middle of the pack. I doubt that they will come streaking up on the outside to take the Kentucky Derby by a length. They will be in that indistinguishable glob of horses in the middle. Vegas is in the western semis with a legitimate chance to go all the way to the finals, and they have less first rounders playing for them than the Hawks. At this point there’s nothing wrong about building a quality core of support players with the right attitude and talent to augment the higher end talent you hope they’ll add in the future. Thirty two teams all fighting for the same things and the same players. This might take time and why I agree with others here that a different eye is required after some suspect or wasted opportunities in the last several drafts, poor contract decisions and never mind some of the other dartboard moves like picking up other teams failed #1’s. These were desperation moves that were required to cover up for those same mistakes. What kind of culture are they trying to build here? Can anyone say what identity the Hawks carry now? The closest analogy to me is that they play rope-a-dope for most of the game, take a lot of punishment and hope for the punchers chance to pull one out of the bag. We seriously need new people to oversee this. Vegas has fewer first rounders playing for them than the Hawks. So, as you say there is nothing wrong with having a quality core of support players with the right attitude and TALENT. From what I've seen the Hawks don't have much of either compared to Vegas. Bowman has done a terrible job of keeping the Hawks competitive since the last Cup. What he has set up for his roster just does not cut it. That is why, as you say, new people are needed to oversee whatever it is they can do to build a competitive team. |
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Post by tincup on Jun 7, 2021 9:04:19 GMT -6
Vegas is in the western semis with a legitimate chance to go all the way to the finals, and they have less first rounders playing for them than the Hawks. At this point there’s nothing wrong about building a quality core of support players with the right attitude and talent to augment the higher end talent you hope they’ll add in the future. Thirty two teams all fighting for the same things and the same players. This might take time and why I agree with others here that a different eye is required after some suspect or wasted opportunities in the last several drafts, poor contract decisions and never mind some of the other dartboard moves like picking up other teams failed #1’s. These were desperation moves that were required to cover up for those same mistakes. What kind of culture are they trying to build here? Can anyone say what identity the Hawks carry now? The closest analogy to me is that they play rope-a-dope for most of the game, take a lot of punishment and hope for the punchers chance to pull one out of the bag. We seriously need new people to oversee this. Vegas has fewer first rounders playing for them than the Hawks. So, as you say there is nothing wrong with having a quality core of support players with the right attitude and TALENT. From what I've seen the Hawks don't have much of either compared to Vegas. Bowman has done a terrible job of keeping the Hawks competitive since the last Cup. What he has set up for his roster just does not cut it. That is why, as you say, new people are needed to oversee whatever it is they can do to build a competitive team. A weird draft due to circumstances but you have to hope the scouts are on top of this. So many mock drafts have players scattered everywhere. Maybe this is that kind of draft where there’s a nugget of gold buried deep, but I’m not sure the Hawk staff know how to mine that anyways. Like you say, and I’ll quote you, “the right attitude and TALENT”, that’s what I want as well. I want Hagel tenacity in a more talented package, I want self motivation and not pouters and whiners. There’s bound to be a couple of unexpected picks before Chicago’s, maybe we’ll get better than hoped for. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 7, 2021 10:38:29 GMT -6
One thing to keep in mind, I think everyone is getting caught up on getting all these high end scorers or the most talented. That usually ends up in a lot of misses or not getting what you need. Cant always take “the most talented”.
I know this is a different draft. There is always a possibility someone that should go 2nd or 3rd could fall due to no exposure. However, I think the Hawks need to shift gears and start looking for guys to fill different roles. It seems like the org is always looking for a high end puck moving dman in the draft. Then we see Kalynuk come in and look as offensively gifted as any of them. He’s a 7th round pick from Philly who took the long way due to no one wanting him. Can you rely on Kalynuk’s coming out every year? No. Just like you can’t rely on finding gems with every pick. It’s time to start picking guys like a Bolland. Yes he was a big end scorer in Jrs, but through his interviews and his development, he knew he probably wouldn’t be the high end scorer and he was told his last year in Jrs to go out and be a pest. He did. You can draft and develop guys like this. Same with Buff. Ladd, etc. We need role players so the top end guys like Kane, Dcat, Toews, Kubalik can do their thing.
We need to start drafting NHL players and more role players that can easily make the transition and make the Hawks tougher to play against.
If Mason McTavish is there, and he’s passed on. The problem lies very very deep. Cannot keep taking skill guys with no heart. Cannot have a team full of no skill and all heart players either. Need a good mix. McTavish should be the target!!!
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Post by jacksalmon on Jun 7, 2021 11:03:57 GMT -6
One thing to keep in mind, I think everyone is getting caught up on getting all these high end scorers or the most talented. That usually ends up in a lot of misses or not getting what you need. Cant always take “the most talented”. I know this is a different draft. There is always a possibility someone that should go 2nd or 3rd could fall due to no exposure. However, I think the Hawks need to shift gears and start looking for guys to fill different roles. It seems like the org is always looking for a high end puck moving dman in the draft. Then we see Kalynuk come in and look as offensively gifted as any of them. He’s a 7th round pick from Philly who took the long way due to no one wanting him. Can you rely on Kalynuk’s coming out every year? No. Just like you can’t rely on finding gems with every pick. It’s time to start picking guys like a Bolland. Yes he was a big end scorer in Jrs, but through his interviews and his development, he knew he probably wouldn’t be the high end scorer and he was told his last year in Jrs to go out and be a pest. He did. You can draft and develop guys like this. Same with Buff. Ladd, etc. We need role players so the top end guys like Kane, Dcat, Toews, Kubalik can do their thing. We need to start drafting NHL players and more role players that can easily make the transition and make the Hawks tougher to play against. If Mason McTavish is there, and he’s passed on. The problem lies very very deep. Cannot keep taking skill guys with no heart. Cannot have a team full of no skill and all heart players either. Need a good mix. McTavish should be the target!!! I just looked at a lists of Hawk draft picks going back to the 60s. What was most amazing to me was the number of draft picks who have never played even one game in the NHL. They comprised the majority of the picks. It shows that at least with the Hawks, they :"can't rely on finding gems with every pick". In fact, they can rely on getting lumps of coal with most picks. Getting the Cat in the 2d round was sure a winner as was getting Hjarlmsson (the Hammer) in the 4th round. Obviously, getting Kane and Toews with successive first round picks might have been the best successive first round picks in NHL history. I am too lazy to find out if that is true, but some of you internet geniuses might be curious enough to see if that is true, or not. Ii hope you are, as I would like to see what two successive first round picks turned out better than Toews and Kane. I did make the effort to see how the Oilers did with their draft picks back in the golden years and found this below. Of course Gretzky had already been acquired by Edmonton via trade with the Indy Racers ( no wonder the idiots aren't still around) before the WHA got folded into the NHL. 1979 1 21 Kevin Lowe Canada D Quebec Remparts (QMJHL) 1254 84 348 432 1498 — — — — — 1979 3 48 Mark Messier Canada LW/C Cincinnati Stingers (WHA) 1756 694 1193 1887 1910 — — — — — 1979 4 69 Glenn Anderson Canada RW University of Denver (WCHA) 1129 498 601 1099 1120 — — — — — 1979 4 84 Max Kostovich Canada LW Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) — — — — — — — — — — 1979 5 105 Mike Toal Canada C Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) 3 0 0 0 0 — — — — — 1979 6 126 Blair Barnes Canada RW Windsor Spitfires (OMJHL) 1 0 0 0 0 — — — — — 1980 1 6 Paul Coffey Canada D Kitchener Rangers (OMJHL) 1409 396 1135 1531 1800 — — — — — 1980 3 48 Shawn Babcock Canada RW Windsor Spitfires (OMJHL) — — — — — — — — — — 1980 4 69 Jari Kurri Finland RW Jokerit (SM-liiga) 1251 601 797 1398 545 The numbers right after the years are the rounds in which the players were chosen and which pick they were. While the other numbers shows games, goals, assists etc. In two years, they got Lowe, Messier, Anderson, Coffey and Kurri. Messier was the 48th pick of his draft (who says you gotta pick in the first round) and note that Kurri was a 4th round pick. No wonder they were so damn good. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Jun 7, 2021 11:08:44 GMT -6
Vegas has fewer first rounders playing for them than the Hawks. So, as you say there is nothing wrong with having a quality core of support players with the right attitude and TALENT. From what I've seen the Hawks don't have much of either compared to Vegas. Bowman has done a terrible job of keeping the Hawks competitive since the last Cup. What he has set up for his roster just does not cut it. That is why, as you say, new people are needed to oversee whatever it is they can do to build a competitive team. A weird draft due to circumstances but you have to hope the scouts are on top of this. So many mock drafts have players scattered everywhere. Maybe this is that kind of draft where there’s a nugget of gold buried deep, but I’m not sure the Hawk staff know how to mine that anyways. Like you say, and I’ll quote you, “the right attitude and TALENT”, that’s what I want as well. I want Hagel tenacity in a more talented package, I want self motivation and not pouters and whiners. There’s bound to be a couple of unexpected picks before Chicago’s, maybe we’ll get better than hoped for. Don't give me the credit for "right attitude and talent", I was quoting you from a prior post of yours. It is pretty amazing what Vegas has done with castoffs, picks, free agent signings and trades. Like 'em, or not, they are a high-powered team that last year showed the Hawks how it can be done and would have done the same this year, if given the chance. They might lose the series, but what they are doing with the Avs in this series, is pretty amazing. Gotta give 'em credit!!!! |
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Post by tincup on Jun 7, 2021 12:21:15 GMT -6
One thing to keep in mind, I think everyone is getting caught up on getting all these high end scorers or the most talented. That usually ends up in a lot of misses or not getting what you need. Cant always take “the most talented”. I know this is a different draft. There is always a possibility someone that should go 2nd or 3rd could fall due to no exposure. However, I think the Hawks need to shift gears and start looking for guys to fill different roles. It seems like the org is always looking for a high end puck moving dman in the draft. Then we see Kalynuk come in and look as offensively gifted as any of them. He’s a 7th round pick from Philly who took the long way due to no one wanting him. Can you rely on Kalynuk’s coming out every year? No. Just like you can’t rely on finding gems with every pick. It’s time to start picking guys like a Bolland. Yes he was a big end scorer in Jrs, but through his interviews and his development, he knew he probably wouldn’t be the high end scorer and he was told his last year in Jrs to go out and be a pest. He did. You can draft and develop guys like this. Same with Buff. Ladd, etc. We need role players so the top end guys like Kane, Dcat, Toews, Kubalik can do their thing. We need to start drafting NHL players and more role players that can easily make the transition and make the Hawks tougher to play against. If Mason McTavish is there, and he’s passed on. The problem lies very very deep. Cannot keep taking skill guys with no heart. Cannot have a team full of no skill and all heart players either. Need a good mix. McTavish should be the target!!! I just looked at a lists of Hawk draft picks going back to the 60s. What was most amazing to me was the number of draft picks who have never played even one game in the NHL. They comprised the majority of the picks. It shows that at least with the Hawks, they :"can't rely on finding gems with every pick". In fact, they can rely on getting lumps of coal with most picks. Getting the Cat in the 2d round was sure a winner as was getting Hjarlmsson (the Hammer) in the 4th round. Obviously, getting Kane and Toews with successive first round picks might have been the best successive first round picks in NHL history. I am too lazy to find out if that is true, but some of you internet geniuses might be curious enough to see if that is true, or not. Ii hope you are, as I would like to see what two successive first round picks turned out better than Toews and Kane. I did make the effort to see how the Oilers did with their draft picks back in the golden years and found this below. Of course Gretzky had already been acquired by Edmonton via trade with the Indy Racers ( no wonder the idiots aren't still around) before the WHA got folded into the NHL. 1979 1 21 Kevin Lowe Canada D Quebec Remparts (QMJHL) 1254 84 348 432 1498 — — — — — 1979 3 48 Mark Messier Canada LW/C Cincinnati Stingers (WHA) 1756 694 1193 1887 1910 — — — — — 1979 4 69 Glenn Anderson Canada RW University of Denver (WCHA) 1129 498 601 1099 1120 — — — — — 1979 4 84 Max Kostovich Canada LW Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) — — — — — — — — — — 1979 5 105 Mike Toal Canada C Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) 3 0 0 0 0 — — — — — 1979 6 126 Blair Barnes Canada RW Windsor Spitfires (OMJHL) 1 0 0 0 0 — — — — — 1980 1 6 Paul Coffey Canada D Kitchener Rangers (OMJHL) 1409 396 1135 1531 1800 — — — — — 1980 3 48 Shawn Babcock Canada RW Windsor Spitfires (OMJHL) — — — — — — — — — — 1980 4 69 Jari Kurri Finland RW Jokerit (SM-liiga) 1251 601 797 1398 545 The numbers right after the years are the rounds in which the players were chosen and which pick they were. While the other numbers shows games, goals, assists etc. In two years, they got Lowe, Messier, Anderson, Coffey and Kurri. Messier was the 48th pick of his draft (who says you gotta pick in the first round) and note that Kurri was a 4th round pick. No wonder they were so damn good. The ‘79 draft was a ground breaking one due to the league merger,( I’ll link a nice story below), lots of underagers because the WHA had tried to undermine the NHL on prospects, lots of side deals made, Gretzky on a personal service contract,etc. and as you’ll see, not a ton of Euros or even Americans selected. I’ll give the WHA credit for opening up the N.A. game to the players of the world, I don’t believe that very many NHL teams would have been heavily scouting Europe at the time, therefore some pretty good players were drafted deep. www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1979/79facts.htmlInteresting how you brought up the Blackhawks drafts, it’s always been the case that very few prospects get good careers out of hockey, but the Hawks history of first rounders outside of the obvious picks of Toews (lucky he fell to third) and the luck of winning the Kane lotto, leaves a lot to be desired. Second round and beyond not much different. You develop a fourth round guy to be a valuable player, more luck sometimes than insight I think. Some of the Blackhawk scouts and management with long time connections to the draft should be under the eye as well, but like any big corporation these guys bury in like ticks. |
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