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Post by mikeveisor on Dec 20, 2023 19:53:36 GMT -6
Not sure what to make of your first sentence but you know as well as I do that no single win or loss defines any team's season,let alone it's entire rebuilding plan. I said some time back that the team will occasionally out-work better opponents and beat em on the nights when they don't have their 'legs' and even the best teams don't have their 'legs' every night. With 3 years of high picks and lots of cap space next summer, the Hawks will be much better next season, especially if they land Pettersson or the better Nylander. I would not bet on Pettersson from Van - Tyler Myers comes off the books after this year, there's the extra $$ to more than cover his need$. Zadorov comes off, too. Their replacements, I do not know about their farm system at all, but Elias Pettersson (the forward) seems like a guy that Van would be nuts to part with given his age, and being homegrown talent. If I have the wrong Pettersson, never mind.  |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 20, 2023 20:08:26 GMT -6
After a game like tonight, the rebuild is complete and now it is just a matter of picking a few more good vets. But, more importantly, they played tonight as the equal, or better, than one of the so-called better teams in the league and stayed with them all the way. So what if Makar wasn't there, they still had plenty of their big names available and they got outplayed and outhustled. Piss on the Avs, they suck and won't be winning any Cups this year. It was good to see the Hawks get the better of them, even if their victory string won't go on for very long. Not sure what to make of your first sentence but you know as well as I do that no single win or loss defines any team's season,let alone it's entire rebuilding plan. I said some time back that the team will occasionally out-work better opponents and beat em on the nights when they don't have their 'legs' and even the best teams don't have their 'legs' every night. C'mon, boys, not everything I write is to be taken literally. That first sentence was pure hyperbole; or an obvious falsehood to emphasize how ridiculous the statement is. Saying the "rebuild is complete" referred to the ridiculous notion that since they beat the Avs the work of rebuilding the team is done except for picking up a few more good vets. Obviously, they got all they need if they beat the mighty Avs, right? Of course not and as you said, we both know this single win was a pure aberration and nothing more than probably due to the fact that the Avs thought they could sleepwalk thru the game and still win. So, make things clear, I firmly believe that the rebuild is not complete and that it will take much more work and a positive outcome is no certainty. In fact, I think to make a Cup competitive team the odds are against it, but I still hope they can defy the odds. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 20, 2023 20:36:54 GMT -6
I know we’ve talked about this in this thread. But the Yzerplan is failing miserably. He did exactly what MVR has preached. Those are the results. They’re gonna lose again tonight. They’re one of the worst teams in the league…… again. Sure they have a few decent kids coming. But not many stars. Their coaching is horrible. They’re not physical, and they just suck.
Let’s hope that the Hawks add a bit to the roster, but don’t try to build a team outta 3rd liners. Man, it’s tough to watch this version of the Yzerplan!!!
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 20, 2023 23:45:49 GMT -6
I know we’ve talked about this in this thread. But the Yzerplan is failing miserably. He did exactly what MVR has preached. Those are the results. They’re gonna lose again tonight. They’re one of the worst teams in the league…… again. Sure they have a few decent kids coming. But not many stars. Their coaching is horrible. They’re not physical, and they just suck. Let’s hope that the Hawks add a bit to the roster, but don’t try to build a team outta 3rd liners. Man, it’s tough to watch this version of the Yzerplan!!! I just want to understand what you are saying. I assume that you believe that the best team can be built by getting the best players thru the draft and then adding top notch vets by trade and/or free agency. The opposite of this is exemplified by what is happening in Detroit where the primary focus has been on acquiring vets, but only of a third line quality. Thus, instead of tanking to get draft picks, the Wings have maintained some quality in their team and plan to rebuild by acquiring the third liners of whom you speak, but will not get the top draft picks. You believe that this will not work, but instead prefer the approach of KD which is to build thru a strong draft while adding a few top notch vets in the future as can be done and needed. Is that your thinking? What am I missing, if it is not? I am not arguing against your thinking, if I have spelled it out correctly. It could easily be a better way to rebuild a team. I am just trying to understand your thinking and approach. |
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Post by squishy24 on Dec 21, 2023 0:04:17 GMT -6
With 3 years of high picks and lots of cap space next summer, the Hawks will be much better next season, especially if they land Pettersson or the better Nylander. I would not bet on Pettersson from Van - Tyler Myers comes off the books after this year, there's the extra $$ to more than cover his need$. Zadorov comes off, too. Their replacements, I do not know about their farm system at all, but Elias Pettersson (the forward) seems like a guy that Van would be nuts to part with given his age, and being homegrown talent. If I have the wrong Pettersson, never mind. I second this, theyd probably also trade Garland or that russian guy (name eludes me right now) if they need to make more room. But also, you have to see if Petterson does a Tkachuk/Gudreau and inform the Nucks hes not interested in re-signing with them. I doubt it, but that can happen |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Dec 21, 2023 9:57:24 GMT -6
Petterson is a RFA he is not going anywhere.
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Post by LordKOTL on Dec 21, 2023 10:05:37 GMT -6
I know we’ve talked about this in this thread. But the Yzerplan is failing miserably. He did exactly what MVR has preached. Those are the results. They’re gonna lose again tonight. They’re one of the worst teams in the league…… again. Sure they have a few decent kids coming. But not many stars. Their coaching is horrible. They’re not physical, and they just suck. Let’s hope that the Hawks add a bit to the roster, but don’t try to build a team outta 3rd liners. Man, it’s tough to watch this version of the Yzerplan!!! I just want to understand what you are saying. I assume that you believe that the best team can be built by getting the best players thru the draft and then adding top notch vets by trade and/or free agency. The opposite of this is exemplified by what is happening in Detroit where the primary focus has been on acquiring vets, but only of a third line quality. Thus, instead of tanking to get draft picks, the Wings have maintained some quality in their team and plan to rebuild by acquiring the third liners of whom you speak, but will not get the top draft picks. You believe that this will not work, but instead prefer the approach of KD which is to build thru a strong draft while adding a few top notch vets in the future as can be done and needed. Is that your thinking? What am I missing, if it is not? I am not arguing against your thinking, if I have spelled it out correctly. It could easily be a better way to rebuild a team. I am just trying to understand your thinking and approach. is correct in this. Your top core talent almost always has to be acquired via the draft: See also Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrook. But, you can't fill everything via the draft. Not ever prospect pans out exactly as their scouting report says. You'll need fill-in players that cover the exact gaps that your drafted, developed talent can't adequately cover. Brian Campbell, for example, PPQB that we needed. Then you need good coaching, a system which all of the players buy into, a critical mass of talent playing below their cap hit, and some luck. Rebuilds-in-situ are possible, but it is rare and requires luck to get talent at the bottom of the draft pool and enough hockey knowledge to know who to acquire and who to lose, and when. The 'hawks might have been able to to that somewhere circa 2017-2019, but look at the GM we were stuck with at the time. In my opinion, for a build like we're in, you have to draft the top-end talent and develop it. Once that happens you have to see exactly what your prospect pool is--what holes does the team have in it's overall game. That way you know what holes you need to fill. Coaching also needs to tailor their gameplan to the team they have. To wit: the system the 2010 hawks used to win the cup would have failed if it was used by the 2011 Bruins--and vice-versa. Continuing my opinion on this: the 'hawks tanked out last season as much as they could. They were lucky and blagged Bedard. This season we've seen Bedard look good and Vlassic look good--who are two players who could very well be the start of a good core (it's still really early and things can still go pear-shaped), but there's no reason to tank or go for it. Let the kids--especially the rest of the kids make their mistakes. Let's see what's missing from the lineup. What are the collective gaps in Bedard, Reichel, Vlassic, Korchinski, Phillips, Kaiser, Crevier, and Soderblom's games? Can the holes be developed out with experience? Are there better options long term outside of the club? Is anyone superfluous and can be used as trade-bait? What about the vets--will they stand the test of time? What is the realistic projection of their aging? If they are stopgaps, what's the succession plan? If we are stuck with them long term, how do they fit within the lineup while not blocking a potentially better player, but still contributing? This is a year where we're finding all of this out. This would be a year to say, "Oh, Reichel took a step back and is not #2C material. How many potential #2Cs do we have in the system? How soon will they hit? Should we be looking outside of the club? If so, who is out there what we can reasonably target who can grow with our club?" It's not a year to ditch anyone who could keep us out of the cellar, nor is it a year that we should be acquiring someone with real assets who would raise us to, at best, be a middling team at the expense of the current youth. This is a marathon, not a sprint. I agree that the Yzerplan is not doing it right because there is very little way they could pick up another Yzerman, Zetterberg, or Datsyuk without a not of luck. We're actually doing it somewhat close to how we previously did it--as long as Kyle from Chicago sticks to the plan. It would also help if he got a real PP coach. LR might not be the long term answer, either. But, neither was Yawney. |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 21, 2023 12:08:25 GMT -6
I know we’ve talked about this in this thread. But the Yzerplan is failing miserably. He did exactly what MVR has preached. Those are the results. They’re gonna lose again tonight. They’re one of the worst teams in the league…… again. Sure they have a few decent kids coming. But not many stars. Their coaching is horrible. They’re not physical, and they just suck. Let’s hope that the Hawks add a bit to the roster, but don’t try to build a team outta 3rd liners. Man, it’s tough to watch this version of the Yzerplan!!! That's a bold claim with 50 games left and the team 4pts out of 3rd place in their division! The 4 game losing streak doesn't define the team any more than going 6-1-0 after returning from Sweeden or going 5-1-0 to start does. Two of their last 4 losses were 2-1 and 1-0 games because Lalonde is trying to get the team to tighten-up defensively,two of their three GT's are out,Larkin just returned from injury and Perron is due back from suspension tomorrow. Lotta hockey left. Rebuilds don't go in a srtaight line and will have bumps along the way,would you say Bufalo or Ottawa's look any better at this point? What do you 'preach' that Detroit should have done differently? Be a bottom-feeder for longer? Keep on sucking till you suck-ceed? The Wings currently have several of their 1st and 2nd round picks in the line-up with a few years under their belts and 27yro Larkin's window is now,that's why they pivoted to adding vets the last two years.........the outcome is FAR from being determined. Detroit's system still consists of two forwards taken in the 1st round,two in the 2nd and two in the 3rd,and two D-men taken in the 1st round,six in the 2nd and one more in the 3rd. One GT taken in the 1st and one in the 2nd also. The Yzer-plan worked well in Tampa. We're gonna do it better than this guy,we got a better plan than that team,we don't just want to be a PO contender or a one and done team and just wait,we'll show em......we'll see! Constructing a bottom-five roster and trading good players is one thing,constructing a competitive roster and acquiring/developing good players is another thing all together.....we'll see how that goes at some point too. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 21, 2023 13:29:51 GMT -6
I know we’ve talked about this in this thread. But the Yzerplan is failing miserably. He did exactly what MVR has preached. Those are the results. They’re gonna lose again tonight. They’re one of the worst teams in the league…… again. Sure they have a few decent kids coming. But not many stars. Their coaching is horrible. They’re not physical, and they just suck. Let’s hope that the Hawks add a bit to the roster, but don’t try to build a team outta 3rd liners. Man, it’s tough to watch this version of the Yzerplan!!! That's a bold claim with 50 games left and the team 4pts out of 3rd place in their division! The 4 game losing streak doesn't define the team any more than going 6-1-0 after returning from Sweeden or going 5-1-0 to start does. Two of their last 4 losses were 2-1 and 1-0 games because Lalonde is trying to get the team to tighten-up defensively,two of their three GT's are out,Larkin just returned from injury and Perron is due back from suspension tomorrow. Lotta hockey left. Rebuilds don't go in a srtaight line and will have bumps along the way,would you say Bufalo or Ottawa's look any better at this point? What do you 'preach' that Detroit should have done differently? Be a bottom-feeder for longer? Keep on sucking till you suck-ceed? The Wings currently have several of their 1st and 2nd round picks in the line-up with a few years under their belts and 27yro Larkin's window is now,that's why they pivoted to adding vets the last two years.........the outcome is FAR from being determined. Detroit's system still consists of two forwards taken in the 1st round,two in the 2nd and two in the 3rd,and two D-men taken in the 1st round,six in the 2nd and one more in the 3rd. One GT taken in the 1st and one in the 2nd also. The Yzer-plan worked well in Tampa. We're gonna do it better than this guy,we got a better plan than that team,we don't just want to be a PO contender or a one and done team and just wait,we'll show em......we'll see! Constructing a bottom-five roster and trading good players is one thing,constructing a competitive roster and acquiring/developing good players is another thing all together.....we'll see how that goes at some point too. I’ll come right out and say this. They have too many one trick ponies. No toughness, they’re a perimeter team for the most part. Dcat scores goals. But he’s a perimeter guy (ya I said it) that sets on top of the outer faceoff circle and waits for a pass. There’s a reason why he hasn’t played a playoff game yet and probably won’t this year. Larkin is in the same boat. When all of your so called stars would be 2-3 line players on a good team, it’s hard to win. Whether we like it or not, a team has to actually bottom out. Like NJ did, Colorado, Chicago, SJ will make sure they get there. What you’re describing is rebuilding to get a playoff team. Which is fine. The Wings wanted to accelerate their plans when Stevie Y took over. He had enough of being on the bottom. Also, this isn’t Mike Illitchs team. His kids run it now and they run it like a business. They don’t care about winning. Look at the Tigers. They just don’t spend money or a lot of it. So it’s not the good ole days. Let’s say the wings do slip into the playoffs and get bounced in the 1st round. But…….. they’ve got a couple of kids coming picked 9th or lower! Great. They’ll replace exactly what they have now. You need top end talent. Top 5 picks. Preferably top 3. The Wings have had none of that. I personally don’t buy what Yzerman is selling. I don’t see it working now, and I don’t see it working longer term. There’s really not much there. They have NHL caliber players. And maybe your complaint is the Hawks really don’t? I’d rather be in the Hawks position than the Wings. Even if the Hawks didn’t get Bedard!!! |
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Post by mvr on Dec 21, 2023 14:08:52 GMT -6
Big T: I am certainly not here to defend Yzerman (though I think we all would agree he did a good job in Tampa).
Like most here, I strongly believe a team should build through the draft (and would only rarely consider trading a 1st round pick away). I do not think it is wise nor feasible to buy core players via UFA.
My preference is to spend a large chunk of the cap dollars on big centres and top three defenders. But I also recognize that a team consists of 23 players all of whom need to be able to play a role. Too much focus on star players and "core pieces" is a recipe for failure.
Like Yzerman (perhaps) I think a team should make the effort every year to compete. I do not support deliberately tanking. As much as possible, I want to keep my veteran players through a rebuild (similar to both Detroit and the LA Kings).
In the past, people here have called me a "dumpster diver." I have no problem with that label. I am firmly in favor of capitalizing on situations when they present themselves rather than being slavish to some long term "plan."
By constantly tinkering with the bottom of the roster, I think a team can improve quickly. I would take full advantage of the waiver wire, of college and European free agents, and of salary cap dump opportunities. A team needs several good players, but they do not need superstars necessarily. Depth matters more than elite talent.
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Post by mvr on Dec 21, 2023 14:22:38 GMT -6
When we look at the last Hawk core, only Toews and Kane were products of dreadful seasons.
Kane was a lottery pick win and Toews a lucky break (in that two teams bypassed grabbing him).
Sharp was a trade acquisition. Seabrook was picked outside the top 10. Keith, Bolland and Crawford were second round picks. Hjalmarsson was a fourth rounder. Hossa was a UFA (salary cap circumvention). Byfuglien was an 8th rounder. Versteeg a trade acquisition.
The Hawks won because of their depth. Toews and Kane were contributors, but they had plenty of help. Kane was a magic man for many years, but he only won one Hart trophy in his career, and that came after the team's third cup. Toews never won the MVP trophy, though he was always among the best at his position.
Let's also remember: the team's other high picks, Barker and Skille in particular, were not a big part of the team's future success. Ruutu and Babchuk were not key pieces either.
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Post by hsbob on Dec 21, 2023 14:34:12 GMT -6
That's a bold claim with 50 games left and the team 4pts out of 3rd place in their division! The 4 game losing streak doesn't define the team any more than going 6-1-0 after returning from Sweeden or going 5-1-0 to start does. Two of their last 4 losses were 2-1 and 1-0 games because Lalonde is trying to get the team to tighten-up defensively,two of their three GT's are out,Larkin just returned from injury and Perron is due back from suspension tomorrow. Lotta hockey left. Rebuilds don't go in a srtaight line and will have bumps along the way,would you say Bufalo or Ottawa's look any better at this point? What do you 'preach' that Detroit should have done differently? Be a bottom-feeder for longer? Keep on sucking till you suck-ceed? The Wings currently have several of their 1st and 2nd round picks in the line-up with a few years under their belts and 27yro Larkin's window is now,that's why they pivoted to adding vets the last two years.........the outcome is FAR from being determined. Detroit's system still consists of two forwards taken in the 1st round,two in the 2nd and two in the 3rd,and two D-men taken in the 1st round,six in the 2nd and one more in the 3rd. One GT taken in the 1st and one in the 2nd also. The Yzer-plan worked well in Tampa. We're gonna do it better than this guy,we got a better plan than that team,we don't just want to be a PO contender or a one and done team and just wait,we'll show em......we'll see! Constructing a bottom-five roster and trading good players is one thing,constructing a competitive roster and acquiring/developing good players is another thing all together.....we'll see how that goes at some point too. I’ll come right out and say this. They have too many one trick ponies. No toughness, they’re a perimeter team for the most part. Dcat scores goals. But he’s a perimeter guy (ya I said it) that sets on top of the outer faceoff circle and waits for a pass. There’s a reason why he hasn’t played a playoff game yet and probably won’t this year. Larkin is in the same boat. When all of your so called stars would be 2-3 line players on a good team, it’s hard to win. Whether we like it or not, a team has to actually bottom out. Like NJ did, Colorado, Chicago, SJ will make sure they get there. What you’re describing is rebuilding to get a playoff team. Which is fine. The Wings wanted to accelerate their plans when Stevie Y took over. He had enough of being on the bottom. Also, this isn’t Mike Illitchs team. His kids run it now and they run it like a business. They don’t care about winning. Look at the Tigers. They just don’t spend money or a lot of it. So it’s not the good ole days. Let’s say the wings do slip into the playoffs and get bounced in the 1st round. But…….. they’ve got a couple of kids coming picked 9th or lower! Great. They’ll replace exactly what they have now. You need top end talent. Top 5 picks. Preferably top 3. The Wings have had none of that. I personally don’t buy what Yzerman is selling. I don’t see it working now, and I don’t see it working longer term. There’s really not much there. They have NHL caliber players. And maybe your complaint is the Hawks really don’t? I’d rather be in the Hawks position than the Wings. Even if the Hawks didn’t get Bedard!!! Kane was a perimeter player too and it led to multiple cups! D-Cat's job is to find open ice to shoot from and he does that very well and he has as many assists as goals in his career,he can rush the puck and he's yet to miss a single game to injury. You were as high as anyone on the team when they had a hot start and were happy Larkin finally had an elite linemate............DeBrincat's leading the team in goals and points. Not counting the 'bubble' games D-Cat ain't played for a PO team.......has he? How many PO games did Jack Eichel play in before last year? How many PO games will Connor Bedard play in before he pulls an 'Eichel' of his own? Can't suck forever! And Rocky's kid took over here,along with SB's assistant and we know they've figured-out how to bottom-out real good,figuring the rest out is a LOT harder and Yzerman's proven he can figure out the rest. I'm sorry but I'll go with Stevie Y in this instance. If we're giving final grades on rebuilds 32 games in,where are 4 games over NJ or 4 games under Buffalo or 5 games under Ottawa at compared to 2 games over Detroit? Do you really believe Chicago's and San Jose's tanking "makes sure they get there"? |
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Post by steamer on Dec 21, 2023 14:44:20 GMT -6
When we look at the last Hawk core, only Toews and Kane were products of dreadful seasons. Kane was a lottery pick win and Toews a lucky break (in that two teams bypassed grabbing him). Sharp was a trade acquisition. Seabrook was picked outside the top 10. Keith, Bolland and Crawford were second round picks. Hjalmarsson was a fourth rounder. Hossa was a UFA (salary cap circumvention). Byfuglien was an 8th rounder. Versteeg a trade acquisition. The Hawks won because of their depth. Toews and Kane were contributors, but they had plenty of help. Kane was a magic man for many years, but he only won one Hart trophy in his career, and that came after the team's third cup. Toews never won the MVP trophy, though he was always among the best at his position. Let's also remember: the team's other high picks, Barker and Skille in particular, were not a big part of the team's future success. Ruutu and Babchuk were not key pieces either. I will be surprised if in a couple of years the roster isn’t similar in the nature of the array of draft picks from different rounds, trade acquisitions and free agent signings. It took years and some luck before and it is likely to again. |
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Post by mvr on Dec 21, 2023 15:10:15 GMT -6
A strong argument could be made that the Hawks have already lucked into their Toews/Kane player.
Bedard might actually have a higher upside than either.
The goal now should be to find support pieces and build depth. There is no justification to continue deliberately losing. The top is now ok. Build from the bottom up rather than the top down.
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 21, 2023 16:41:13 GMT -6
I just want to understand what you are saying. I assume that you believe that the best team can be built by getting the best players thru the draft and then adding top notch vets by trade and/or free agency. The opposite of this is exemplified by what is happening in Detroit where the primary focus has been on acquiring vets, but only of a third line quality. Thus, instead of tanking to get draft picks, the Wings have maintained some quality in their team and plan to rebuild by acquiring the third liners of whom you speak, but will not get the top draft picks. You believe that this will not work, but instead prefer the approach of KD which is to build thru a strong draft while adding a few top notch vets in the future as can be done and needed. Is that your thinking? What am I missing, if it is not? I am not arguing against your thinking, if I have spelled it out correctly. It could easily be a better way to rebuild a team. I am just trying to understand your thinking and approach. is correct in this. Your top core talent almost always has to be acquired via the draft: See also Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrook. But, you can't fill everything via the draft. Not ever prospect pans out exactly as their scouting report says. You'll need fill-in players that cover the exact gaps that your drafted, developed talent can't adequately cover. Brian Campbell, for example, PPQB that we needed. Then you need good coaching, a system which all of the players buy into, a critical mass of talent playing below their cap hit, and some luck. Rebuilds-in-situ are possible, but it is rare and requires luck to get talent at the bottom of the draft pool and enough hockey knowledge to know who to acquire and who to lose, and when. The 'hawks might have been able to to that somewhere circa 2017-2019, but look at the GM we were stuck with at the time. In my opinion, for a build like we're in, you have to draft the top-end talent and develop it. Once that happens you have to see exactly what your prospect pool is--what holes does the team have in it's overall game. That way you know what holes you need to fill. Coaching also needs to tailor their gameplan to the team they have. To wit: the system the 2010 hawks used to win the cup would have failed if it was used by the 2011 Bruins--and vice-versa. Continuing my opinion on this: the 'hawks tanked out last season as much as they could. They were lucky and blagged Bedard. This season we've seen Bedard look good and Vlassic look good--who are two players who could very well be the start of a good core (it's still really early and things can still go pear-shaped), but there's no reason to tank or go for it. Let the kids--especially the rest of the kids make their mistakes. Let's see what's missing from the lineup. What are the collective gaps in Bedard, Reichel, Vlassic, Korchinski, Phillips, Kaiser, Crevier, and Soderblom's games? Can the holes be developed out with experience? Are there better options long term outside of the club? Is anyone superfluous and can be used as trade-bait? What about the vets--will they stand the test of time? What is the realistic projection of their aging? If they are stopgaps, what's the succession plan? If we are stuck with them long term, how do they fit within the lineup while not blocking a potentially better player, but still contributing? This is a year where we're finding all of this out. This would be a year to say, "Oh, Reichel took a step back and is not #2C material. How many potential #2Cs do we have in the system? How soon will they hit? Should we be looking outside of the club? If so, who is out there what we can reasonably target who can grow with our club?" It's not a year to ditch anyone who could keep us out of the cellar, nor is it a year that we should be acquiring someone with real assets who would raise us to, at best, be a middling team at the expense of the current youth. This is a marathon, not a sprint. I agree that the Yzerplan is not doing it right because there is very little way they could pick up another Yzerman, Zetterberg, or Datsyuk without a not of luck. We're actually doing it somewhat close to how we previously did it--as long as Kyle from Chicago sticks to the plan. It would also help if he got a real PP coach. LR might not be the long term answer, either. But, neither was Yawney. Good summary of an approach that makes sense to me. The Hawks will get another early first round pick in the 2024 draft. Hopefully, they get lucky and get a prime draft pick. The problem I see for them is that they have so many young players who will not be developed anytime soon that it will be difficult to decide what the needs are with proven vets. There is no one on the current team who will be cementing a spot on the eventual team the franchise wants except Bedard. The guys already drafted who are playing in the colleges/juniors/AHL are a long way from showing whether they belong in the NHL and what positives and negatives they wlll bring to the franchise. So, all the assessing what vet skills are needed is another two, or three years away. They may just have to go for the best vets available to improve their performance somewhat and bring a positive force to a team loaded with young guys who have near zero NHL experience. Will that work? I don't know, but they may just have to take a gamble on a couple of vets and hope they fill the needs that will eventually be revealed. If they don't get a couple of vets for next season, then, again, they will have this youth dominated team that is going to result in them getting more lottery picks. |
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Post by steamer on Dec 21, 2023 16:50:24 GMT -6
I am hoping KD does much of what mvr, hsbob and BigT have suggested, namely think beyond merely building from the draft and not feeling he has to stick too rigidly to a plan or to having only top notch skating as a prerequisite for joining the organization. I think it needs to be a combination of talent and hardworkers to be successful and yes depth is important and should come in time. And let’s not forget the netminder(s) as strong goaltending is a hallmark of the strongest teams come playoff time. IMO it’s still way too early to conclude the GM has succeeded or failed.
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 21, 2023 17:19:48 GMT -6
I am hoping KD does much of what mvr, hsbob and BigT have suggested, namely think beyond merely building from the draft and not feeling he has to stick too rigidly to a plan or to having only top notch skating as a prerequisite for joining the organization. I think it needs to be a combination of talent and hardworkers to be successful and yes depth is important and should come in time. And let’s not forget the netminder(s) as strong goaltending is a hallmark of the strongest teams come playoff time. IMO it’s still way too early to conclude the GM has succeeded or failed. You are right that they do need to seriously consider getting the netminder of the future. |
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Post by steamer on Dec 21, 2023 17:50:42 GMT -6
I am hoping KD does much of what mvr, hsbob and BigT have suggested, namely think beyond merely building from the draft and not feeling he has to stick too rigidly to a plan or to having only top notch skating as a prerequisite for joining the organization. I think it needs to be a combination of talent and hardworkers to be successful and yes depth is important and should come in time. And let’s not forget the netminder(s) as strong goaltending is a hallmark of the strongest teams come playoff time. IMO it’s still way too early to conclude the GM has succeeded or failed. You are right that they do need to seriously consider getting the netminder of the future. A lot of games are decided by a goal whether in regulation or OT. Mrazek is currently doing a great job - better than I would ever have predicted but he’s had injury issues most seasons and he’s 32. If he stays healthy this season, he could fetch players and/or picks but it wouldn’t bother me to see him sign a 3 year deal for $5mm per or maybe a tad higher and give the Hawks adequate time to develop Commesso and Gajan and whomever else they acquire. Soderblom could surprise but the rebound control is concerning. Maybe I should have put this on the GT thread? |
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Post by LordKOTL on Dec 21, 2023 17:56:29 GMT -6
BigT is correct in this. Your top core talent almost always has to be acquired via the draft: See also Toews/Kane/Keith/Seabrook. But, you can't fill everything via the draft. Not ever prospect pans out exactly as their scouting report says. You'll need fill-in players that cover the exact gaps that your drafted, developed talent can't adequately cover. Brian Campbell, for example, PPQB that we needed. Then you need good coaching, a system which all of the players buy into, a critical mass of talent playing below their cap hit, and some luck. Rebuilds-in-situ are possible, but it is rare and requires luck to get talent at the bottom of the draft pool and enough hockey knowledge to know who to acquire and who to lose, and when. The 'hawks might have been able to to that somewhere circa 2017-2019, but look at the GM we were stuck with at the time. In my opinion, for a build like we're in, you have to draft the top-end talent and develop it. Once that happens you have to see exactly what your prospect pool is--what holes does the team have in it's overall game. That way you know what holes you need to fill. Coaching also needs to tailor their gameplan to the team they have. To wit: the system the 2010 hawks used to win the cup would have failed if it was used by the 2011 Bruins--and vice-versa. Continuing my opinion on this: the 'hawks tanked out last season as much as they could. They were lucky and blagged Bedard. This season we've seen Bedard look good and Vlassic look good--who are two players who could very well be the start of a good core (it's still really early and things can still go pear-shaped), but there's no reason to tank or go for it. Let the kids--especially the rest of the kids make their mistakes. Let's see what's missing from the lineup. What are the collective gaps in Bedard, Reichel, Vlassic, Korchinski, Phillips, Kaiser, Crevier, and Soderblom's games? Can the holes be developed out with experience? Are there better options long term outside of the club? Is anyone superfluous and can be used as trade-bait? What about the vets--will they stand the test of time? What is the realistic projection of their aging? If they are stopgaps, what's the succession plan? If we are stuck with them long term, how do they fit within the lineup while not blocking a potentially better player, but still contributing? This is a year where we're finding all of this out. This would be a year to say, "Oh, Reichel took a step back and is not #2C material. How many potential #2Cs do we have in the system? How soon will they hit? Should we be looking outside of the club? If so, who is out there what we can reasonably target who can grow with our club?" It's not a year to ditch anyone who could keep us out of the cellar, nor is it a year that we should be acquiring someone with real assets who would raise us to, at best, be a middling team at the expense of the current youth. This is a marathon, not a sprint. I agree that the Yzerplan is not doing it right because there is very little way they could pick up another Yzerman, Zetterberg, or Datsyuk without a not of luck. We're actually doing it somewhat close to how we previously did it--as long as Kyle from Chicago sticks to the plan. It would also help if he got a real PP coach. LR might not be the long term answer, either. But, neither was Yawney. Good summary of an approach that makes sense to me. The Hawks will get another early first round pick in the 2024 draft. Hopefully, they get lucky and get a prime draft pick. The problem I see for them is that they have so many young players who will not be developed anytime soon that it will be difficult to decide what the needs are with proven vets. There is no one on the current team who will be cementing a spot on the eventual team the franchise wants except Bedard. The guys already drafted who are playing in the colleges/juniors/AHL are a long way from showing whether they belong in the NHL and what positives and negatives they wlll bring to the franchise. So, all the assessing what vet skills are needed is another two, or three years away. They may just have to go for the best vets available to improve their performance somewhat and bring a positive force to a team loaded with young guys who have near zero NHL experience. Will that work? I don't know, but they may just have to take a gamble on a couple of vets and hope they fill the needs that will eventually be revealed. If they don't get a couple of vets for next season, then, again, they will have this youth dominated team that is going to result in them getting more lottery picks. I would add Vlassic in with Bedard. He's already the best defenseman we have and would likely be a 3-5 on any other team. his career can go pear-shaped but right now I see no reason *not* to keep him long term. He may not be using his size to crash & bang but he's using his reach and breaking up plays in the backend as good as any seasoned D, and better than all of our vets. They are right in that you can't build exclusively from the draft. BUT, draft capital has value. That can always help on the trade market. Remember, we were able to land Leddy by taking on Kim Johnsson. There's no reason we can't do the same in reverse--send out a superfluous prospect (hopefully with someone that we don't want long term), in excange for someone who ideally in the here-and-now slots in and can for awhile (even though I don't think that was Barker). However, looking at the team realistically: Who can play with Bedard at a high level? Who besides Vlassic is consistently good on the D-side of the puck? Id there a bonafied #2C that maybe also has some defensive upside? I don't see definitive answers to that in the system right now. There are some guys who might have some promise, but no guarantees. I think it would be safe to look towards filling those voids if an opportunity presents itself. You're correct that it might take an additional year or two to completely flesh the team out (kinda like 2006, 2007, and 2008), but I think even back in 2006 Tallon started getting a good idea of what the team's future strengths were and what holes the team needed to fill--both long-term and stopgap. Others? We shall see. Keep in mind the only move that produced anything in 2006 towards to cup was Ellison out and Sharp/Meloche in. In 2007 some other moves happened, like signing Lalime as a stopgap, Havlat & Smolinski as a stopgap, Handzus round 1 as a stopgap, , getting Versteeg round 1 for Bochinski, and flipping Lasse into Calder, and Calder back for Williams as a stopgap. If that holdsw true, I think this summer we might start seeing more. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Dec 21, 2023 18:03:16 GMT -6
You are right that they do need to seriously consider getting the netminder of the future. A lot of games are decided by a goal whether in regulation or OT. Mrazek is currently doing a great job - better than I would ever have predicted but he’s had injury issues most seasons and he’s 32. If he stays healthy this season, he could fetch players and/or picks but it wouldn’t bother me to see him sign a 3 year deal for $5mm per or maybe a tad higher and give the Hawks adequate time to develop Commesso and Gajan and whomever else they acquire. Soderblom could surprise but the rebound control is concerning. Maybe I should have put this on the GT thread? I agree he has to control rebounds better, but the D now looks a lot like the 2012 D--but a lot less skill. There's only one guy who is willing to clear the crease (Phillips now, Seabrook back then), so it would be ill-advised for Mrazek, Soder, or whoever, to try to absorb pucks. They have to play the deflection game otherwise the 5th or 6th whack at the puck will go in--like it did for Crawford and Emery back then. The real question is whether or not Soder can be developed, and whether or not he is developed here or maybe down in the A if we can get someone else to back Mrazek up. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 21, 2023 20:02:27 GMT -6
Good summary of an approach that makes sense to me. The Hawks will get another early first round pick in the 2024 draft. Hopefully, they get lucky and get a prime draft pick. The problem I see for them is that they have so many young players who will not be developed anytime soon that it will be difficult to decide what the needs are with proven vets. There is no one on the current team who will be cementing a spot on the eventual team the franchise wants except Bedard. The guys already drafted who are playing in the colleges/juniors/AHL are a long way from showing whether they belong in the NHL and what positives and negatives they wlll bring to the franchise. So, all the assessing what vet skills are needed is another two, or three years away. They may just have to go for the best vets available to improve their performance somewhat and bring a positive force to a team loaded with young guys who have near zero NHL experience. Will that work? I don't know, but they may just have to take a gamble on a couple of vets and hope they fill the needs that will eventually be revealed. If they don't get a couple of vets for next season, then, again, they will have this youth dominated team that is going to result in them getting more lottery picks. I would add Vlassic in with Bedard. He's already the best defenseman we have and would likely be a 3-5 on any other team. his career can go pear-shaped but right now I see no reason *not* to keep him long term. He may not be using his size to crash & bang but he's using his reach and breaking up plays in the backend as good as any seasoned D, and better than all of our vets. They are right in that you can't build exclusively from the draft. BUT, draft capital has value. That can always help on the trade market. Remember, we were able to land Leddy by taking on Kim Johnsson. There's no reason we can't do the same in reverse--send out a superfluous prospect (hopefully with someone that we don't want long term), in excange for someone who ideally in the here-and-now slots in and can for awhile (even though I don't think that was Barker). However, looking at the team realistically: Who can play with Bedard at a high level? Who besides Vlassic is consistently good on the D-side of the puck? Id there a bonafied #2C that maybe also has some defensive upside? I don't see definitive answers to that in the system right now. There are some guys who might have some promise, but no guarantees. I think it would be safe to look towards filling those voids if an opportunity presents itself. You're correct that it might take an additional year or two to completely flesh the team out (kinda like 2006, 2007, and 2008), but I think even back in 2006 Tallon started getting a good idea of what the team's future strengths were and what holes the team needed to fill--both long-term and stopgap. Others? We shall see. Keep in mind the only move that produced anything in 2006 towards to cup was Ellison out and Sharp/Meloche in. In 2007 some other moves happened, like signing Lalime as a stopgap, Havlat & Smolinski as a stopgap, Handzus round 1 as a stopgap, , getting Versteeg round 1 for Bochinski, and flipping Lasse into Calder, and Calder back for Williams as a stopgap. If that holdsw true, I think this summer we might start seeing more. Good history lesson and I would guess that KD is going to have to repeat that course, more or less. From 06 to the Cup in 10 was a 4 year process. I can see such a lengthy process repeating itself, if all the moves pan out. They have a lot of holes to fill and a lot more decisions to be made before they get to the seriously competitive point. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 22, 2023 6:53:52 GMT -6
I’ll come right out and say this. They have too many one trick ponies. No toughness, they’re a perimeter team for the most part. Dcat scores goals. But he’s a perimeter guy (ya I said it) that sets on top of the outer faceoff circle and waits for a pass. There’s a reason why he hasn’t played a playoff game yet and probably won’t this year. Larkin is in the same boat. When all of your so called stars would be 2-3 line players on a good team, it’s hard to win. Whether we like it or not, a team has to actually bottom out. Like NJ did, Colorado, Chicago, SJ will make sure they get there. What you’re describing is rebuilding to get a playoff team. Which is fine. The Wings wanted to accelerate their plans when Stevie Y took over. He had enough of being on the bottom. Also, this isn’t Mike Illitchs team. His kids run it now and they run it like a business. They don’t care about winning. Look at the Tigers. They just don’t spend money or a lot of it. So it’s not the good ole days. Let’s say the wings do slip into the playoffs and get bounced in the 1st round. But…….. they’ve got a couple of kids coming picked 9th or lower! Great. They’ll replace exactly what they have now. You need top end talent. Top 5 picks. Preferably top 3. The Wings have had none of that. I personally don’t buy what Yzerman is selling. I don’t see it working now, and I don’t see it working longer term. There’s really not much there. They have NHL caliber players. And maybe your complaint is the Hawks really don’t? I’d rather be in the Hawks position than the Wings. Even if the Hawks didn’t get Bedard!!! Kane was a perimeter player too and it led to multiple cups! D-Cat's job is to find open ice to shoot from and he does that very well and he has as many assists as goals in his career,he can rush the puck and he's yet to miss a single game to injury. You were as high as anyone on the team when they had a hot start and were happy Larkin finally had an elite linemate............DeBrincat's leading the team in goals and points. Not counting the 'bubble' games D-Cat ain't played for a PO team.......has he? How many PO games did Jack Eichel play in before last year? How many PO games will Connor Bedard play in before he pulls an 'Eichel' of his own? Can't suck forever! And Rocky's kid took over here,along with SB's assistant and we know they've figured-out how to bottom-out real good,figuring the rest out is a LOT harder and Yzerman's proven he can figure out the rest. I'm sorry but I'll go with Stevie Y in this instance. If we're giving final grades on rebuilds 32 games in,where are 4 games over NJ or 4 games under Buffalo or 5 games under Ottawa at compared to 2 games over Detroit? Do you really believe Chicago's and San Jose's tanking "makes sure they get there"? I’m not shitting on any of them. I’m just splainin what I’m seein. Sure Bedard is lucky 🍀, and a once in a lifetime talent. But the hawks had a plan that ensured them a solid chance on getting him. For the record, I’ll even take SJ over the Wings. Not for today. But in general. After this year they’ll have a wicked prospect pool and another 2-3 years at her. Detroit was always around 5-9. The backward Dolly Parton plan! And I don’t believe they even got 5. The Hawks at least have their crown jewel. Detroit has nothing. Because of you Bob I watched the Caps game. And teams are “collapsing” a lot on OV. They leave him be. And have all their players collapse towards the tendy and block all his shit. The same will happen for Dcat at some point. 5 on 5 scoring is a must. Unless you’re really good and can make the D move on the pp. No one is afraid of Kane anymore. He’s still unreal in my eyes. And he’s the only difference maker on that squad. But he’s not home grown and is 35. If he wasn’t there, the last half of games would be disastrous for the winged wheel. All of the guys that they got over the last two years were mid to bottom guys. I was talking to a lot of fans at a game recently. And everyone seems to think the Wings missed the boat. I was fully excepting of this, and not only because they bought me 3 drinks! 🍺 The wings and their fans know this is not a good situation. They’ll try for a couple more Free Agents. And a couple more trades. But for trades, in order to better the team, they literally have to trade the guys you’ve boasted about. If they keep them. They’ll have to go through growing pains and wait on them like the Hawks. So when is their Cup parade? By the time those kids get better and or ready (and there’s really on 2 guys), Kane won’t be there or prevelent any more. Dcat more than likely moves on. And so does all the guys they’ve signed to 3 and 4 year deals. Then what? Bring in more 10-20 draft picks? They’re screwed. They know it. The quick fix will not get them much!!! |
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Post by BigT on Dec 22, 2023 7:18:20 GMT -6
Big T: I am certainly not here to defend Yzerman (though I think we all would agree he did a good job in Tampa). Like most here, I strongly believe a team should build through the draft (and would only rarely consider trading a 1st round pick away). I do not think it is wise nor feasible to buy core players via UFA. My preference is to spend a large chunk of the cap dollars on big centres and top three defenders. But I also recognize that a team consists of 23 players all of whom need to be able to play a role. Too much focus on star players and "core pieces" is a recipe for failure. Like Yzerman (perhaps) I think a team should make the effort every year to compete. I do not support deliberately tanking. As much as possible, I want to keep my veteran players through a rebuild (similar to both Detroit and the LA Kings). In the past, people here have called me a "dumpster diver." I have no problem with that label. I am firmly in favor of capitalizing on situations when they present themselves rather than being slavish to some long term "plan." By constantly tinkering with the bottom of the roster, I think a team can improve quickly. I would take full advantage of the waiver wire, of college and European free agents, and of salary cap dump opportunities. A team needs several good players, but they do not need superstars necessarily. Depth matters more than elite talent. What Yzerman did in Tampa has absolutely no barring on what happens in Detroit. Absolutely none. With that said. What makes you think that the Hawks are purposely tanking? Look at the facts. Perry is gone, Hall is done, AA has missed most of the season so far. Seth is out. Korchinski is out, Vlasic is out and a laundry list of others. It’s just bad luck at this point. It really is. Now they have no depth. It’s just what they got. They weren’t purposely tanking. Are the Wings, Sens, BJs, Blues all purposely tanking? They all did what you have claimed they should do. And it fails. It fails miserably. The Hawks have a plan. Let’s see it through, cuz it can be worse than any of those teams plans!!! |
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Post by BigT on Dec 22, 2023 7:26:37 GMT -6
I am hoping KD does much of what mvr, hsbob and BigT have suggested, namely think beyond merely building from the draft and not feeling he has to stick too rigidly to a plan or to having only top notch skating as a prerequisite for joining the organization. I think it needs to be a combination of talent and hardworkers to be successful and yes depth is important and should come in time. And let’s not forget the netminder(s) as strong goaltending is a hallmark of the strongest teams come playoff time. IMO it’s still way too early to conclude the GM has succeeded or failed. However, the next couple of years have to be about breaking in more kids and seeing what you got. Look at Ottawa. They had a kid ( great fuckin name) Angus Cruikshank get his first goal. Why is this significant? Because they’re still working kids in. How can you contend when you’re still working kids in? How? Even Stutzle is finally understanding the NHL game. It took 3 years. Bedard is no different. It’ll take him 3 years to become the player we want. Sure it’ll be exciting along the way. But he needs to figure out what works and what doesn’t. Hawks have 2 more years of adding what they see fit. And there’s usually 2 years of growing pains. So the Hawks won’t contend for a playoff spot for another 3-4 years. But it’ll be exciting. The Hawks will be in the middle, but on their way up. If they exceed expectations like the 2010 team. Then it’ll be super exciting!!! |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Dec 22, 2023 9:32:06 GMT -6
Yes the rebuild officially started when KD took over but as I've mentioned many times, 2019 is when the last regime started drafting bigger dmen and this year they're getting valuable minutes.
Vlasic, Phillips, and now Crevier. Plus Allan and Del Mastro are in their first year of pro hockey. Kaiser isn't big but there's flashbacks of Keith. Then their's the biggest of them all, 3rd rounder, Taige Harding. Not all will make it but that's a good number of dmen.
Then KD takes Korchinski and Rinzel to add to the D pool.
Now they have Bedard and drafted a lot of forwards the past 2yrs. KD knows to stay the course and next summer is when he'll bring in help from trades and free agency, and not older vets on 1yr contracts. That was just to help the kids and hopefully add more draft picks at the TDL.
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Post by hsbob on Dec 22, 2023 9:39:35 GMT -6
Kane was a perimeter player too and it led to multiple cups! D-Cat's job is to find open ice to shoot from and he does that very well and he has as many assists as goals in his career,he can rush the puck and he's yet to miss a single game to injury. You were as high as anyone on the team when they had a hot start and were happy Larkin finally had an elite linemate............DeBrincat's leading the team in goals and points. Not counting the 'bubble' games D-Cat ain't played for a PO team.......has he? How many PO games did Jack Eichel play in before last year? How many PO games will Connor Bedard play in before he pulls an 'Eichel' of his own? Can't suck forever! And Rocky's kid took over here,along with SB's assistant and we know they've figured-out how to bottom-out real good,figuring the rest out is a LOT harder and Yzerman's proven he can figure out the rest. I'm sorry but I'll go with Stevie Y in this instance. If we're giving final grades on rebuilds 32 games in,where are 4 games over NJ or 4 games under Buffalo or 5 games under Ottawa at compared to 2 games over Detroit? Do you really believe Chicago's and San Jose's tanking "makes sure they get there"? I’m not shitting on any of them. I’m just splainin what I’m seein. Sure Bedard is lucky 🍀, and a once in a lifetime talent. But the hawks had a plan that ensured them a solid chance on getting him. For the record, I’ll even take SJ over the Wings. Not for today. But in general. After this year they’ll have a wicked prospect pool and another 2-3 years at her. Detroit was always around 5-9. The backward Dolly Parton plan! And I don’t believe they even got 5. The Hawks at least have their crown jewel. Detroit has nothing. Because of you Bob I watched the Caps game. And teams are “collapsing” a lot on OV. They leave him be. And have all their players collapse towards the tendy and block all his shit. The same will happen for Dcat at some point. 5 on 5 scoring is a must. Unless you’re really good and can make the D move on the pp. No one is afraid of Kane anymore. He’s still unreal in my eyes. And he’s the only difference maker on that squad. But he’s not home grown and is 35. If he wasn’t there, the last half of games would be disastrous for the winged wheel. All of the guys that they got over the last two years were mid to bottom guys. I was talking to a lot of fans at a game recently. And everyone seems to think the Wings missed the boat. I was fully excepting of this, and not only because they bought me 3 drinks! 🍺 The wings and their fans know this is not a good situation. They’ll try for a couple more Free Agents. And a couple more trades. But for trades, in order to better the team, they literally have to trade the guys you’ve boasted about. If they keep them. They’ll have to go through growing pains and wait on them like the Hawks. So when is their Cup parade? By the time those kids get better and or ready (and there’s really on 2 guys), Kane won’t be there or prevelent any more. Dcat more than likely moves on. And so does all the guys they’ve signed to 3 and 4 year deals. Then what? Bring in more 10-20 draft picks? They’re screwed. They know it. The quick fix will not get them much!!! You might end-up being right T,the jury is still out on Stevie Y's results but he might not be done either. I appreciate the back n forth,gets the juices goin'! LOL! I won't pretend to know how to rebuild a hockey team,some decent GM's have failed at it but I do believe there are more ways than one. Top 5 picks are absolutely an advantage but many great players came after #5 and later. A team needs that #1 center through the draft......right? Dylan Larkin's coming off back-back 30gl seasons that saw him win 52 & 54% of his draws and he plays a solid two-way game. I consider that a #1 center regardless of him being taken at #15. Seider already has two very good years behind him @22,he's on pace for a 3rd and the big kid has size and should improve further at his age,he's developing a bit of snarl too. This isn't the potential #1 D-man a team needs through the draft because he came at #6 in his draft? Lucas Raymond was a #4 over-all and he has 50/126 through his first 188gms,he'll turn 22 in late March. 1st round picks Rasmussen(24) and Veleno(23) are both on pace for their best seasons so far,Ras is huge and Veleno's 6'1" 205lbs too. Is this enough to pivot? Along with a still promising system......Yzerman must of thought so. Time will tell. Detroit never did 'luck' into that big #1 pick but they have been bad for a while and Larkin being 27 might have had some influence on their timing. Is is hard to blame mgnt for wanting to get him some better teammates. Most of the forwards they got the last two years are bottom-six,but almost all have PO or cup experience,all signed fairly short-term and all fairly effective at what they do. I personally think having few long-term contracts is advantageous for Detroit going forward. Ovi=D-Cat......C'mon man! I've seen a lotta Ovi so far and I saw him fumble a few more passes again last night before Strome set his up for the OT winner,Ovi's not scoring because his game looks terrible. Defenses have been unable to stop Ovi until this year and D-Cat's on pace for his 3rd 40gl season @25 with one season at a 50gl pace before Covid shut it down and he has 6 on the PP already this year. If teams could stop these two goal scorers from scoring by simply collapsing........they've done a poor job of it. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours! |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 22, 2023 10:01:25 GMT -6
I am hoping KD does much of what mvr, hsbob and BigT have suggested, namely think beyond merely building from the draft and not feeling he has to stick too rigidly to a plan or to having only top notch skating as a prerequisite for joining the organization. I think it needs to be a combination of talent and hardworkers to be successful and yes depth is important and should come in time. And let’s not forget the netminder(s) as strong goaltending is a hallmark of the strongest teams come playoff time. IMO it’s still way too early to conclude the GM has succeeded or failed. I take no issue with sticking to a plan of rebuilding through the draft what soever, but the team will have twenty two prospects who came from the first 3 round the last 3 years after next summer's draft,not counting the prospects taken prior to '22' or later round picks.......and this haul includes Bedard. The following two drafts contain all of team's own picks plus an extra 1st and 2 extra 2nds',at what point is a team done rebuilding through the draft and how many prospects can one system handle properly? It is way too early to grade the new GM and apparently it will be for a few more years.........I could be coaxed out of retirement with job security like that! |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 22, 2023 10:08:50 GMT -6
Big T: I am certainly not here to defend Yzerman (though I think we all would agree he did a good job in Tampa). Like most here, I strongly believe a team should build through the draft (and would only rarely consider trading a 1st round pick away). I do not think it is wise nor feasible to buy core players via UFA. My preference is to spend a large chunk of the cap dollars on big centres and top three defenders. But I also recognize that a team consists of 23 players all of whom need to be able to play a role. Too much focus on star players and "core pieces" is a recipe for failure. Like Yzerman (perhaps) I think a team should make the effort every year to compete. I do not support deliberately tanking. As much as possible, I want to keep my veteran players through a rebuild (similar to both Detroit and the LA Kings). In the past, people here have called me a "dumpster diver." I have no problem with that label. I am firmly in favor of capitalizing on situations when they present themselves rather than being slavish to some long term "plan." By constantly tinkering with the bottom of the roster, I think a team can improve quickly. I would take full advantage of the waiver wire, of college and European free agents, and of salary cap dump opportunities. A team needs several good players, but they do not need superstars necessarily. Depth matters more than elite talent. What Yzerman did in Tampa has absolutely no barring on what happens in Detroit. Absolutely none. With that said. What makes you think that the Hawks are purposely tanking? Look at the facts. Perry is gone, Hall is done, AA has missed most of the season so far. Seth is out. Korchinski is out, Vlasic is out and a laundry list of others. It’s just bad luck at this point. It really is. Now they have no depth. It’s just what they got. They weren’t purposely tanking. Are the Wings, Sens, BJs, Blues all purposely tanking? They all did what you have claimed they should do. And it fails. It fails miserably. The Hawks have a plan. Let’s see it through, cuz it can be worse than any of those teams plans!!! Again, this is just for my understanding. I am not taking sides, or criticizing positions. What is it you say that MVR said the "Wings, Sens, BJs,Blues" should have done to make their teams better, which you said has failed miserably? I am just trying to understand the differences between the various approaches on how to rebuild a team. Thanks for responding. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 22, 2023 10:21:41 GMT -6
I am hoping KD does much of what mvr, hsbob and BigT have suggested, namely think beyond merely building from the draft and not feeling he has to stick too rigidly to a plan or to having only top notch skating as a prerequisite for joining the organization. I think it needs to be a combination of talent and hardworkers to be successful and yes depth is important and should come in time. And let’s not forget the netminder(s) as strong goaltending is a hallmark of the strongest teams come playoff time. IMO it’s still way too early to conclude the GM has succeeded or failed. I take no issue with sticking to a plan of rebuilding through the draft what soever, but the team will have twenty two prospects who came from the first 3 round the last 3 years after next summer's draft,not counting the prospects taken prior to '22' or later round picks.......and this haul includes Bedard. The following two drafts contain all of team's own picks plus an extra 1st and 2 extra 2nds',at what point is a team done rebuilding through the draft and how many prospects can one system handle properly? It is way too early to grade the new GM and apparently it will be for a few more years.........I could be coaxed out of retirement with job security like that! Not only is it too early to grade KD, it is also too early to grade the draft picks already playing in Chicago and also playing down below. We know a few things about those likely to be drafted in 2024, but we don't know anything about how they will perform at the NHL level of play, if they even get there. So, you ask good questions when you ask when is it time to stop trying to acquire more picks and draft as high as possible; and then start focusing on filling the gaps with vets. Your question about how many prospects one system can handle propertly is part of a bigger issue and that is that the Hawks really don't have a clue about how well all these draft picks will perform at the NHL level. Therefore, they don't know very well what are the needs that they have to fulfill with vet acquisition. Will they have to get vets who can score more; defend better or can tend the goal? They better get some answers to these questions. Finally, it will possibly be another 3 to 4 years before they have some real insights on how well their draft picks will perform in the NHL and what holes they still need to plug up. Previously, it took them from 2006 to 2010 to figure it out and they got lucky with their trades, free agents and draft picks, most of whom panned out well. Will that happen again? Obviously, it could go either way. As another matter, it is also time to start the movement toward my plan for revising the salary cap system so that about the time the Hawks get good, they will not have to get rid of the guys who made them good because they can't afford to pay them. See my thoughts about revising the salary cap in the NHL section. |
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Post by mvr on Dec 22, 2023 14:57:41 GMT -6
Jack: Essentially, I believe it all comes down to tanking.
Big T and others (including the present general manager) believe that teams need top-end draft picks to win. They recognize that many contenders have "franchise" type players acquired very early in the draft (ie Toronto, Edmonton, Colorado, Tampa Bay etc). They feel the best way to set a team up to get these players is to "rebuild," which in effect means to lose deliberately by stripping a team of all talent and then winning the lottery (with luck, more than once). I call this approach the "top-down or trickle-down" model. If a team has a few generational players, according to this way of thinking, those stars can carry the rest of the roster and improve everyone else.
My feeling is that this approach is not necessary nor is it good sportsmanship.
I prefer adding players without subtracting ("reloading" without tearing anything down), building depth throughout the roster using all means available. I don't think "Big Name" first overall pick/allstars are necessary for a contending team. I call this approach the "bottoms-up" model (ie the St Louis Blues/Boston Bruins/LA King strategy - fewer stars but greater depth). If a team has quality talent throughout the entire roster, according to this way of thinking, it can roll four lines and three defence pairs.
The Hawks have won two lotteries in the last four years (Dach and Bedard). They have stripped the team of all talent (including sending two First Ballot Hall of Famers packing), and they remain in last place, looking worse now than last year. Typically, I am a patient guy. But this "rebuild" looks like it might take an awful long time.
Davidson has more than $10 M in cap space that cannot be saved for next year. Why not spend some of it and look for ways of improving the team? The only real explanation is that his goal is to continue losing to get another franchise player.
The problem to my mind is that franchise players now command huge chunks of a team's cap space. The best players are making $10+ M/year after their entry level deals have expired.
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