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Post by BigT on Dec 22, 2023 15:47:37 GMT -6
What Yzerman did in Tampa has absolutely no barring on what happens in Detroit. Absolutely none. With that said. What makes you think that the Hawks are purposely tanking? Look at the facts. Perry is gone, Hall is done, AA has missed most of the season so far. Seth is out. Korchinski is out, Vlasic is out and a laundry list of others. It’s just bad luck at this point. It really is. Now they have no depth. It’s just what they got. They weren’t purposely tanking. Are the Wings, Sens, BJs, Blues all purposely tanking? They all did what you have claimed they should do. And it fails. It fails miserably. The Hawks have a plan. Let’s see it through, cuz it can be worse than any of those teams plans!!! Again, this is just for my understanding. I am not taking sides, or criticizing positions. What is it you say that MVR said the "Wings, Sens, BJs,Blues" should have done to make their teams better, which you said has failed miserably? I am just trying to understand the differences between the various approaches on how to rebuild a team. Thanks for responding. I believe they should have stripped the team down and rebuilt. I would’ve traded Larkin and a few others. I would have invested 5 years into the rebuild. Instead they half assed it. Same with the other teams. The Sens highest pick was 3. Then they had one more down year and traded the 7th overall away for a guy who really didn’t want to be there. The Blues got a Cup. Their team has been trending downward ever since. They will need to do a full rebuild at some point soon. But they’re locked into too many stupid contracts. So they’ll be stuck in the middle for many years. I don’t think many understand the terminology of rebuild and full rebuild. A rebuild is what the Wings, Blues and a couple others are doing. A full rebuild is what the Hawks, Sharks, Yotes, Sens, Sabres are all doing. Except the Sens and Sabres got sick of it and didn’t take the extra year or 2 to see all the way through. They start spending money that will cripple them down the road. I thought Dorion did well for the most part. But he was awful at coming out of the rebuild. He made a horrible move for Dcat. And for Chychrun. Neither of those guys have ever played a playoff game. They gave up a lot of draft capital for them while they were still rebuilding. It’s stupid at best. When he could have just signed some free agents like Giroux and Tarasenko. Those two moves were great and needed. They also should have looked into guys like Foligno, Hall etc. neither are on long term deals. Even Donato would a been good there. But to trade 2 top 10 picks for guys that are either not there, or not to great. Is why they’re in the shape they are. Ottawa and Buffalo are in much better shape to take on solid vets to help get them into the playoffs while some of the other kids cook in the farm. Or wherever. I truly believe KD is going about this the right way. My only concern for him, just like Dorion. I don’t know if he’s the guy to lead the team once they’re rebuilt. Will he make the right moves at the right time? Is he in love with his guys too much? Or his coach? Time will tell!!! |
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Post by BigT on Dec 22, 2023 15:58:19 GMT -6
Jack: Essentially, I believe it all comes down to tanking. Big T and others (including the present general manager) believe that teams need top-end draft picks to win. They recognize that many contenders have "franchise" type players acquired very early in the draft (ie Toronto, Edmonton, Colorado, Tampa Bay etc). They feel the best way to set a team up to get these players is to "rebuild," which in effect means to lose deliberately by stripping a team of all talent and then winning the lottery (with luck, more than once). I call this approach the "top-down or trickle-down" model. If a team has a few generational players, according to this way of thinking, those stars can carry the rest of the roster and improve everyone else. My feeling is that this approach is not necessary nor is it good sportsmanship. I prefer adding players without subtracting ("reloading" without tearing anything down), building depth throughout the roster using all means available. I don't think "Big Name" first overall pick/allstars are necessary for a contending team. I call this approach the "bottoms-up" model (ie the St Louis Blues/Boston Bruins/LA King strategy - fewer stars but greater depth). If a team has quality talent throughout the entire roster, according to this way of thinking, it can roll four lines and three defence pairs. The Hawks have won two lotteries in the last four years (Dach and Bedard). They have stripped the team of all talent (including sending two First Ballot Hall of Famers packing), and they remain in last place, looking worse now than last year. Typically, I am a patient guy. But this "rebuild" looks like it might take an awful long time. Davidson has more than $10 M in cap space that cannot be saved for next year. Why not spend some of it and look for ways of improving the team? The only real explanation is that his goal is to continue losing to get another franchise player. The problem to my mind is that franchise players now command huge chunks of a team's cap space. The best players are making $10+ M/year after their entry level deals have expired. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I don’t think many listened to Kyle from Chicago when he was asked about what direction he was taking the team. He said clearly “We’re gonna rebuild, a full rebuild is needed”. A rebuild can be a couple years. But a full rebuild is more than likely 5+. I believe we’re in year 3. KD will have3 drafts after this year. He needs at least 5 drafts to get what he needs. The team will get better every year. But towards the end, if you have enough prospects, you can trade draft capital for help now. And don’t do what Ottawa did and trade top 10 picks for guys who don’t wanna be there. So there is a major difference in the terminology. Rebuild vs full rebuild is total strip down and start over. And they have. The Hawks have the best cap situation I e seen in some time. They’ll be more than fine. Way more than fine!!! |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 22, 2023 16:05:47 GMT -6
Jack: Essentially, I believe it all comes down to tanking. Big T and others (including the present general manager) believe that teams need top-end draft picks to win. They recognize that many contenders have "franchise" type players acquired very early in the draft (ie Toronto, Edmonton, Colorado, Tampa Bay etc). They feel the best way to set a team up to get these players is to "rebuild," which in effect means to lose deliberately by stripping a team of all talent and then winning the lottery (with luck, more than once). I call this approach the "top-down or trickle-down" model. If a team has a few generational players, according to this way of thinking, those stars can carry the rest of the roster and improve everyone else. My feeling is that this approach is not necessary nor is it good sportsmanship. I prefer adding players without subtracting ("reloading" without tearing anything down), building depth throughout the roster using all means available. I don't think "Big Name" first overall pick/allstars are necessary for a contending team. I call this approach the "bottoms-up" model (ie the St Louis Blues/Boston Bruins/LA King strategy - fewer stars but greater depth). If a team has quality talent throughout the entire roster, according to this way of thinking, it can roll four lines and three defence pairs. The Hawks have won two lotteries in the last four years (Dach and Bedard). They have stripped the team of all talent (including sending two First Ballot Hall of Famers packing), and they remain in last place, looking worse now than last year. Typically, I am a patient guy. But this "rebuild" looks like it might take an awful long time. Davidson has more than $10 M in cap space that cannot be saved for next year. Why not spend some of it and look for ways of improving the team? The only real explanation is that his goal is to continue losing to get another franchise player. The problem to my mind is that franchise players now command huge chunks of a team's cap space. The best players are making $10+ M/year after their entry level deals have expired. Thanks, MVR. That was a very good explanation of the two different approaches to reloading/rebuilding a team. This should be marked with a star and saved somewhere for all to be able to use a reference anytime this debate about how to make a team competitive again comes up. I appreciate you taking the time to set this out. I think the Bolts are the most successful franchise in the league since they lost to the Hawks in 2015. Obviously, they did and are still doing something right to remain Cup competitive and successful. Here is an article that sort of sets out how they did it. It's a pretty good read. They engaged in a combination of what you and MVR are recommending. It is amazing that Kucherov was the 58th pick in the 2011draft pick and that they so many others in later rounds due to their good sense of spotting talent. www.nbcsports.com/nhl/news/strikingly-smart-how-tampa-bay-lightning-were-built |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 22, 2023 16:18:10 GMT -6
Again, this is just for my understanding. I am not taking sides, or criticizing positions. What is it you say that MVR said the "Wings, Sens, BJs,Blues" should have done to make their teams better, which you said has failed miserably? I am just trying to understand the differences between the various approaches on how to rebuild a team. Thanks for responding. I believe they should have stripped the team down and rebuilt. I would’ve traded Larkin and a few others. I would have invested 5 years into the rebuild. Instead they half assed it. Same with the other teams. The Sens highest pick was 3. Then they had one more down year and traded the 7th overall away for a guy who really didn’t want to be there. The Blues got a Cup. Their team has been trending downward ever since. They will need to do a full rebuild at some point soon. But they’re locked into too many stupid contracts. So they’ll be stuck in the middle for many years. I don’t think many understand the terminology of rebuild and full rebuild. A rebuild is what the Wings, Blues and a couple others are doing. A full rebuild is what the Hawks, Sharks, Yotes, Sens, Sabres are all doing. Except the Sens and Sabres got sick of it and didn’t take the extra year or 2 to see all the way through. They start spending money that will cripple them down the road. I thought Dorion did well for the most part. But he was awful at coming out of the rebuild. He made a horrible move for Dcat. And for Chychrun. Neither of those guys have ever played a playoff game. They gave up a lot of draft capital for them while they were still rebuilding. It’s stupid at best. When he could have just signed some free agents like Giroux and Tarasenko. Those two moves were great and needed. They also should have looked into guys like Foligno, Hall etc. neither are on long term deals. Even Donato would a been good there. But to trade 2 top 10 picks for guys that are either not there, or not to great. Is why they’re in the shape they are. Ottawa and Buffalo are in much better shape to take on solid vets to help get them into the playoffs while some of the other kids cook in the farm. Or wherever. I truly believe KD is going about this the right way. My only concern for him, just like Dorion. I don’t know if he’s the guy to lead the team once they’re rebuilt. Will he make the right moves at the right time? Is he in love with his guys too much? Or his coach? Time will tell!!! Thanks, Big T for your explanation. I just thanked MVR for doing the same from his perspective and then you did the same thing from yours. Both of your responses should be saved as references for alternative to build a Cup competitive team. You both have clearly spelled out the differences and that is what I was looking for from you guys who well understand the nitty gritty of the sport. Thanks again for responding with your ideas. I think the Bolts are the most successful franchise in the league since they lost to the Hawks in 2015. Obviously, they did and are still doing something right to remain Cup competitive and successful. Here is an article that sort of sets out how they did it. It's a pretty good read. They engaged in a combination of what you and MVR are recommending. It is amazing that Kucherov was the 58th pick in the 2011draft pick and that they so many others in later rounds due to their good sense of spotting talent. www.nbcsports.com/nhl/news/strikingly-smart-how-tampa-bay-lightning-were-built |
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Post by mvr on Dec 22, 2023 21:09:39 GMT -6
One other feature of the modern game which I think is important to recognize ---
If a team can squeak into the playoffs, it has a chance to win. We saw this with LA twice. Florida almost followed suit.
The truth is that the parity in the league following the salary cap squeeze means that every team has holes. The team who makes the smart deadline moves can make some noise. There will likely never be another dynasty like the Hawks from 2010-15 or the Canadiens/Islanders from the 1970s-1980s.
Moving forward, "franchise" type players increasingly will follow the dollar signs like in the other professional sports. "Windows" to win will become shorter and shorter.
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Post by BigT on Dec 22, 2023 22:03:37 GMT -6
One other feature of the modern game which I think is important to recognize --- If a team can squeak into the playoffs, it has a chance to win. We saw this with LA twice. Florida almost followed suit. The truth is that the parity in the league following the salary cap squeeze means that every team has holes. The team who makes the smart deadline moves can make some noise. There will likely never be another dynasty like the Hawks from 2010-15 or the Canadiens/Islanders from the 1970s-1980s. Moving forward, "franchise" type players increasingly will follow the dollar signs like in the other professional sports. "Windows" to win will become shorter and shorter. I see what you’re saying . However both those teams you mentioned did full rebuilds just before. Florida a few high picks. Barkov, Ekblad and Huberdeau. Sure they made a good trade to get Tkachuk. But they don’t get him without having Huberdeau. LA got Doughty at #2. Kopitar at 11. They did make a couple great trades to get Carter and Richards. They were both in their prime and that’s why Philly always sucks. But I’m not against making a good bold trade. It’s ok. But they don’t need that now. Maybe the Hawks already have that said player in the wings? But they don’t get a chance because the Hawks used up that slot. Anyways. We have to realize we’re in the throes of a full rebuild. This year and peony ext won’t be the best!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 23, 2023 10:53:56 GMT -6
Again, this is just for my understanding. I am not taking sides, or criticizing positions. What is it you say that MVR said the "Wings, Sens, BJs,Blues" should have done to make their teams better, which you said has failed miserably? I am just trying to understand the differences between the various approaches on how to rebuild a team. Thanks for responding. I believe they should have stripped the team down and rebuilt. I would’ve traded Larkin and a few others. I would have invested 5 years into the rebuild. Instead they half assed it. Same with the other teams. The Sens highest pick was 3. Then they had one more down year and traded the 7th overall away for a guy who really didn’t want to be there. The Blues got a Cup. Their team has been trending downward ever since. They will need to do a full rebuild at some point soon. But they’re locked into too many stupid contracts. So they’ll be stuck in the middle for many years. I don’t think many understand the terminology of rebuild and full rebuild. A rebuild is what the Wings, Blues and a couple others are doing. A full rebuild is what the Hawks, Sharks, Yotes, Sens, Sabres are all doing. Except the Sens and Sabres got sick of it and didn’t take the extra year or 2 to see all the way through. They start spending money that will cripple them down the road. I thought Dorion did well for the most part. But he was awful at coming out of the rebuild. He made a horrible move for Dcat. And for Chychrun. Neither of those guys have ever played a playoff game. They gave up a lot of draft capital for them while they were still rebuilding. It’s stupid at best. When he could have just signed some free agents like Giroux and Tarasenko. Those two moves were great and needed. They also should have looked into guys like Foligno, Hall etc. neither are on long term deals. Even Donato would a been good there. But to trade 2 top 10 picks for guys that are either not there, or not to great. Is why they’re in the shape they are. Ottawa and Buffalo are in much better shape to take on solid vets to help get them into the playoffs while some of the other kids cook in the farm. Or wherever. I truly believe KD is going about this the right way. My only concern for him, just like Dorion. I don’t know if he’s the guy to lead the team once they’re rebuilt. Will he make the right moves at the right time? Is he in love with his guys too much? Or his coach? Time will tell!!! When you say the Wings "half assed it" and the Sens and Sabres "got sick of it",do you mean they weren't purposefully bad for even longer? All three teams were bad for a long time. A team can finish bottom-three and still have bad lottery luck or have a weaker draft class to pick from when they finally do land that #1 over-all. I do believe in strength in numbers when it comes to high quality prospects and the number of high quality prospects the Hawks should have in their system after next summer's draft oughta be big with the picks from the last three drafts(22 prospects from the first 3 rounds alone). The team has good hauls the following two years also.........do you suggest the team should keep em all and continue to tank for a few more years? Ottawa gave-up a 1st and a 4th for a 24yro coming-off his 3rd outstanding season and got a 1st(albeit a lower 1st),a 4th and Kubalik back,just horrible! He wanted out because he knew there'd be a new GM and HC right around the corner and there was,he's worth every penny Detroit's paying him and Kane was a bonus of that signing. Tarasenko's 32 and had 18gls last year and he's on pace for 19 this year.......DeBrincat will lap the Russian in goals and points this year. The Sens were a more competitive team last year w/D-Cat and that's even with Norris back in the line-up. Chychrun was the prize a lotta teams were chasing and rightly so,the 25yro,6'2" 210lb smooth skating defender is on pace for 16/64 and he's signed for one more for a very reasonable 4.6M,he has struggled with injuries in the past but has played em all so far. 22yro Sanderson and 26yro Chabot are both left shot D-men like Chychrun,which will allow Ott to trade the older of the three.....Chabot. How many PO games did Jack Eichel play in before last year? The 'nay-sayers' were loud and numerous when LV mortgaged their future by trading for high-paid Stone and Eichel and signing Pietrangello to a max deal but those moves won em a cup and they ain't done yet. |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 23, 2023 12:41:08 GMT -6
Jack: Essentially, I believe it all comes down to tanking. Big T and others (including the present general manager) believe that teams need top-end draft picks to win. They recognize that many contenders have "franchise" type players acquired very early in the draft (ie Toronto, Edmonton, Colorado, Tampa Bay etc). They feel the best way to set a team up to get these players is to "rebuild," which in effect means to lose deliberately by stripping a team of all talent and then winning the lottery (with luck, more than once). I call this approach the "top-down or trickle-down" model. If a team has a few generational players, according to this way of thinking, those stars can carry the rest of the roster and improve everyone else. My feeling is that this approach is not necessary nor is it good sportsmanship. I prefer adding players without subtracting ("reloading" without tearing anything down), building depth throughout the roster using all means available. I don't think "Big Name" first overall pick/allstars are necessary for a contending team. I call this approach the "bottoms-up" model (ie the St Louis Blues/Boston Bruins/LA King strategy - fewer stars but greater depth). If a team has quality talent throughout the entire roster, according to this way of thinking, it can roll four lines and three defence pairs. The Hawks have won two lotteries in the last four years (Dach and Bedard). They have stripped the team of all talent (including sending two First Ballot Hall of Famers packing), and they remain in last place, looking worse now than last year. Typically, I am a patient guy. But this "rebuild" looks like it might take an awful long time. Davidson has more than $10 M in cap space that cannot be saved for next year. Why not spend some of it and look for ways of improving the team? The only real explanation is that his goal is to continue losing to get another franchise player. The problem to my mind is that franchise players now command huge chunks of a team's cap space. The best players are making $10+ M/year after their entry level deals have expired. Thanks, MVR. That was a very good explanation of the two different approaches to reloading/rebuilding a team. This should be marked with a star and saved somewhere for all to be able to use a reference anytime this debate about how to make a team competitive again comes up. I appreciate you taking the time to set this out. I think the Bolts are the most successful franchise in the league since they lost to the Hawks in 2015. Obviously, they did and are still doing something right to remain Cup competitive and successful. Here is an article that sort of sets out how they did it. It's a pretty good read. They engaged in a combination of what you and MVR are recommending. It is amazing that Kucherov was the 58th pick in the 2011draft pick and that they so many others in later rounds due to their good sense of spotting talent. www.nbcsports.com/nhl/news/strikingly-smart-how-tampa-bay-lightning-were-built There are more than two approaches to rebuilding a team and many competitive teams have rookies playing very well for em this year,well-run teams can find quality prospects well past the top five picks! The Hawks are far from the first team to move-out good players they don't see suited for their plan due to timing,age or cap-hit but they might be the only team I recall demanding draft picks exclusively in return. The Sabres got Thompson and Tuch in trade along with 1st's and 2nd's when they traded Eichel and O'Reilly. Ottawa got Josh Norris along with a 1st and two 2nd's when they traded Karlsson. The Jets got 24yro Vilardi and 22 Kupari along with a 2nd when they unloaded the malcontent Dubois. The Wild also snagged very promising 21yro D-man Brock Faber along with a 1st when they moved Fiala. It's actually rare when a GM doesn't pluck a quality prospect from a trade partner along with quality pick(s)when they move a star player. Boston allowed Buffalo to draft,develop and then give-up on Linus Ullmark before signing him as a UFA @27.........that's how the Bruins acquired their stud goaltend and that's why the Bruins are good every year and Buffalo still sucks. The Sabres have seven 1st round picks in their line-up and two 2nd's,two of those 1st round picks were #1 over-all D-men who'll make over 19M combined next year yet the team's 26th in the league and allows goals at almost the same rate as the Hawks do! The Flyers were rebuilding too when they traded a 35yro pure rental who gave em only Fla as a choice,yet they got 24yro Tippett(27gls last year,30gl pace this year)along with a 1st and a 3rd for Giroux and the Flyers are much better for it! Teams DO part with good young players when they have to. A loaded system like the Hawks have,and they do have one,or will have one,is a big advantage but it is not a guarantee. AZ and many other teams have been bad forever with the picks to match and with little to show for it. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 23, 2023 13:17:54 GMT -6
I believe they should have stripped the team down and rebuilt. I would’ve traded Larkin and a few others. I would have invested 5 years into the rebuild. Instead they half assed it. Same with the other teams. The Sens highest pick was 3. Then they had one more down year and traded the 7th overall away for a guy who really didn’t want to be there. The Blues got a Cup. Their team has been trending downward ever since. They will need to do a full rebuild at some point soon. But they’re locked into too many stupid contracts. So they’ll be stuck in the middle for many years. I don’t think many understand the terminology of rebuild and full rebuild. A rebuild is what the Wings, Blues and a couple others are doing. A full rebuild is what the Hawks, Sharks, Yotes, Sens, Sabres are all doing. Except the Sens and Sabres got sick of it and didn’t take the extra year or 2 to see all the way through. They start spending money that will cripple them down the road. I thought Dorion did well for the most part. But he was awful at coming out of the rebuild. He made a horrible move for Dcat. And for Chychrun. Neither of those guys have ever played a playoff game. They gave up a lot of draft capital for them while they were still rebuilding. It’s stupid at best. When he could have just signed some free agents like Giroux and Tarasenko. Those two moves were great and needed. They also should have looked into guys like Foligno, Hall etc. neither are on long term deals. Even Donato would a been good there. But to trade 2 top 10 picks for guys that are either not there, or not to great. Is why they’re in the shape they are. Ottawa and Buffalo are in much better shape to take on solid vets to help get them into the playoffs while some of the other kids cook in the farm. Or wherever. I truly believe KD is going about this the right way. My only concern for him, just like Dorion. I don’t know if he’s the guy to lead the team once they’re rebuilt. Will he make the right moves at the right time? Is he in love with his guys too much? Or his coach? Time will tell!!! When you say the Wings "half assed it" and the Sens and Sabres "got sick of it",do you mean they weren't purposefully bad for even longer? All three teams were bad for a long time. A team can finish bottom-three and still have bad lottery luck or have a weaker draft class to pick from when they finally do land that #1 over-all. I do believe in strength in numbers when it comes to high quality prospects and the number of high quality prospects the Hawks should have in their system after next summer's draft oughta be big with the picks from the last three drafts(22 prospects from the first 3 rounds alone). The team has good hauls the following two years also.........do you suggest the team should keep em all and continue to tank for a few more years? Ottawa gave-up a 1st and a 4th for a 24yro coming-off his 3rd outstanding season and got a 1st(albeit a lower 1st),a 4th and Kubalik back,just horrible! He wanted out because he knew there'd be a new GM and HC right around the corner and there was,he's worth every penny Detroit's paying him and Kane was a bonus of that signing. Tarasenko's 32 and had 18gls last year and he's on pace for 19 this year.......DeBrincat will lap the Russian in goals and points this year. The Sens were a more competitive team last year w/D-Cat and that's even with Norris back in the line-up. Chychrun was the prize a lotta teams were chasing and rightly so,the 25yro,6'2" 210lb smooth skating defender is on pace for 16/64 and he's signed for one more for a very reasonable 4.6M,he has struggled with injuries in the past but has played em all so far. 22yro Sanderson and 26yro Chabot are both left shot D-men like Chychrun,which will allow Ott to trade the older of the three.....Chabot. How many PO games did Jack Eichel play in before last year? The 'nay-sayers' were loud and numerous when LV mortgaged their future by trading for high-paid Stone and Eichel and signing Pietrangello to a max deal but those moves won em a cup and they ain't done yet. I think the problem is Buffalo and Detroit were multiple GMs. Holland was trying to retool. Buffalo thought they were done when they got Eichel. But there was more work to be done and they bottomed out 2 more times. They’ve had pretty poor drafting. www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005054.htmlAnyways. I feel is quite evident that I like the way KD has done this. I don’t like every move, but he’s done good in my eyes!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 23, 2023 13:39:59 GMT -6
When you say the Wings "half assed it" and the Sens and Sabres "got sick of it",do you mean they weren't purposefully bad for even longer? All three teams were bad for a long time. A team can finish bottom-three and still have bad lottery luck or have a weaker draft class to pick from when they finally do land that #1 over-all. I do believe in strength in numbers when it comes to high quality prospects and the number of high quality prospects the Hawks should have in their system after next summer's draft oughta be big with the picks from the last three drafts(22 prospects from the first 3 rounds alone). The team has good hauls the following two years also.........do you suggest the team should keep em all and continue to tank for a few more years? Ottawa gave-up a 1st and a 4th for a 24yro coming-off his 3rd outstanding season and got a 1st(albeit a lower 1st),a 4th and Kubalik back,just horrible! He wanted out because he knew there'd be a new GM and HC right around the corner and there was,he's worth every penny Detroit's paying him and Kane was a bonus of that signing. Tarasenko's 32 and had 18gls last year and he's on pace for 19 this year.......DeBrincat will lap the Russian in goals and points this year. The Sens were a more competitive team last year w/D-Cat and that's even with Norris back in the line-up. Chychrun was the prize a lotta teams were chasing and rightly so,the 25yro,6'2" 210lb smooth skating defender is on pace for 16/64 and he's signed for one more for a very reasonable 4.6M,he has struggled with injuries in the past but has played em all so far. 22yro Sanderson and 26yro Chabot are both left shot D-men like Chychrun,which will allow Ott to trade the older of the three.....Chabot. How many PO games did Jack Eichel play in before last year? The 'nay-sayers' were loud and numerous when LV mortgaged their future by trading for high-paid Stone and Eichel and signing Pietrangello to a max deal but those moves won em a cup and they ain't done yet. I think the problem is Buffalo and Detroit were multiple GMs. Holland was trying to retool. Buffalo thought they were done when they got Eichel. But there was more work to be done and they bottomed out 2 more times. They’ve had pretty poor drafting. www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005054.htmlAnyways. I feel is quite evident that I like the way KD has done this. I don’t like every move, but he’s done good in my eyes!!! He moved out some quality assets to amass a mountain of draft picks and he constructed teams sure to finish in the bottom-five for what'll be the 3rd consecutive year to assure those picks are good ones. I'll personally wait for the results from that mountain of high picks before I draw any conclusions on his job performance but you're not alone in your opinion........the guy's the toast of the town in Chicago before accomplishing ANYTHING. |
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Post by mvr on Dec 24, 2023 7:55:03 GMT -6
Lucas Reichel did not play a shift in the third period last night. Soderblom allowed six goals, including yet another softie to end it.
Two highly touted prospects before the start of this year - both floundering. Confidence destroyed.
I am far from surprised. This is the human consequence of deliberately tanking. Sure, a team sets itself up to get its high "franchise" picks. By doing so, however, it burns through many promising young players.
A team's culture actually does matter to develop talent.
Meanwhile, the golden child, Bedard, does not feel it necessary to play below the blue line in the defensive zone most nights. His shifts often approach a minute thirty or longer...... What is he learning about team play in this environment?
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Post by mvr on Dec 24, 2023 8:14:36 GMT -6
One other point about last night's game.... the coach is obviously frustrated.
But shortening the bench in the second of a back-to-back is a highly questionable move. Are there not other ways to send messages?
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Post by hawkinmontreal on Dec 24, 2023 8:51:06 GMT -6
Lucas Reichel did not play a shift in the third period last night. Soderblom allowed six goals, including yet another softie to end it. Two highly touted prospects before the start of this year - both floundering. Confidence destroyed. I am far from surprised. This is the human consequence of deliberately tanking. Sure, a team sets itself up to get its high "franchise" picks. By doing so, however, it burns through many promising young players. A team's culture actually does matter to develop talent. Meanwhile, the golden child, Bedard, does not feel it necessary to play below the blue line in the defensive zone most nights. His shifts often approach a minute thirty or longer...... What is he learning about team play in this environment? Great post MVR, I absolutely agree with you, Bedards defensive skills are very minimal, to the point where even Pat Kane in his prime played better defensively and that’s a scary thought. I agree the Hawks are suffering from the consequences of tanking as well, but that’s the price they paid for Bedard, and let’s let’s be thankful they won the draft, because if it was Fantilli on this team or Carlsson I really don’t think the optimism around here would be the same. MVR I know it will never happen, but I would love to see KD swallow his pride and bring Toews back, I don’t care if he had 10 points the whole season, he is the type of player the Hawks need, and put Hossa behind the bench. I keep going back to the Kings teams, Kopiatar and Doughty are the calming presence that team needed while building and look at the team now. The prospects aren’t lost, but if the culture doesn’t change they will be. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 24, 2023 9:48:40 GMT -6
Lucas Reichel did not play a shift in the third period last night. Soderblom allowed six goals, including yet another softie to end it. Two highly touted prospects before the start of this year - both floundering. Confidence destroyed. I am far from surprised. This is the human consequence of deliberately tanking. Sure, a team sets itself up to get its high "franchise" picks. By doing so, however, it burns through many promising young players. A team's culture actually does matter to develop talent. Meanwhile, the golden child, Bedard, does not feel it necessary to play below the blue line in the defensive zone most nights. His shifts often approach a minute thirty or longer...... What is he learning about team play in this environment? Again. I don’t believe they’re purposely tanking. Hall, Perry, Seth, Anderson, AA, Vlasic, Korchinski, Tinordi, Blackwell etc etc. have all missed significant time or the year. What are they to do? Sure they could go to the waiver wire and exactly what they got now and get pretty much the same result. I’m sure he’s looked for trades. He said he has. But he’s not giving up a first this year. And he’s not giving up any of the young kids on display at the WJC. It’s just not smart. Many have questioned whether Reichel was even an NHL player. The Hawks touted him because he was all they had. Literally not one other forward prospect was available for a talking point. I honestly think that the Hawks may have contended for a playoff spot this year if healthy. And or Perry fiasco never happened. Think of the lineup. Hall-Bedard-Kurashev Reichel-AA-Donato Foligno-Dicky-Blackwell. Those are 3 decent lines plus Entwistle-Johnson-Perry etc. I’m truly believe in the shitty western conference, they would have been in the hunt for the playoffs. Maybe not 2 points back. But at least 7-8. And be lurking around close but not close enough. But I don’t believe it’s fair to say they’re tanking. Half the team is hurt. It is what it is. Merry Christmas buddy. Hope you have a great holiday season. And we’ll continue our epic great debates in the new year!!! |
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Post by mvr on Dec 24, 2023 9:56:35 GMT -6
Kane waited for a phone call. He eventually signed for $2.75 M.....
Toews still has not signed anywhere. Neither has Kessell....
So many waiver wire options.... So many potential low cost trade possibilities with teams anxious to dump contracts...
Well over $10 million in cap space. Tons more if Davidson puts some players on LTIR.
And yet Davidson is not deliberately tanking???
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Post by hsbob on Dec 24, 2023 13:08:24 GMT -6
Lucas Reichel did not play a shift in the third period last night. Soderblom allowed six goals, including yet another softie to end it. Two highly touted prospects before the start of this year - both floundering. Confidence destroyed. I am far from surprised. This is the human consequence of deliberately tanking. Sure, a team sets itself up to get its high "franchise" picks. By doing so, however, it burns through many promising young players. A team's culture actually does matter to develop talent. Meanwhile, the golden child, Bedard, does not feel it necessary to play below the blue line in the defensive zone most nights. His shifts often approach a minute thirty or longer...... What is he learning about team play in this environment? Again. I don’t believe they’re purposely tanking. Hall, Perry, Seth, Anderson, AA, Vlasic, Korchinski, Tinordi, Blackwell etc etc. have all missed significant time or the year. What are they to do? Sure they could go to the waiver wire and exactly what they got now and get pretty much the same result. I’m sure he’s looked for trades. He said he has. But he’s not giving up a first this year. And he’s not giving up any of the young kids on display at the WJC. It’s just not smart. Many have questioned whether Reichel was even an NHL player. The Hawks touted him because he was all they had. Literally not one other forward prospect was available for a talking point. I honestly think that the Hawks may have contended for a playoff spot this year if healthy. And or Perry fiasco never happened. Think of the lineup. Hall-Bedard-Kurashev Reichel-AA-Donato Foligno-Dicky-Blackwell. Those are 3 decent lines plus Entwistle-Johnson-Perry etc. I’m truly believe in the shitty western conference, they would have been in the hunt for the playoffs. Maybe not 2 points back. But at least 7-8. And be lurking around close but not close enough. But I don’t believe it’s fair to say they’re tanking. Half the team is hurt. It is what it is. Merry Christmas buddy. Hope you have a great holiday season. And we’ll continue our epic great debates in the new year!!! Hall's 32 and coming off 16 goals on the best regular season team ever and had 10 the year before. 38yro Perry was playing better than anticipated, but he hasn't broke 20 goals in 7 years with a few single digit goal years in between,on great teams. AA potted 20 last year when he saw a lotta PP and 5 on 5 time with Kane,his prior 3 seasons saw 11,10 and 11 goals. I'm not sure where Jones gets the team if healthy,they looked better at times defensively when he's out. They definitely missed Vlasic and KK too but most of the other injured guys wouldn't even make most teams.........contend for a PO spot? With who in net? With so many young D-men learning the ropes? Didn't Detroit,Ottawa and Bufflo give up on their rebuilds by trying to become competitive to soon? Why would our GM have done the same with his roster then? |
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Post by Nikos on Dec 24, 2023 13:24:57 GMT -6
Kane waited for a phone call. He eventually signed for $2.75 M..... Toews still has not signed anywhere. Neither has Kessell.... So many waiver wire options.... So many potential low cost trade possibilities with teams anxious to dump contracts... Well over $10 million in cap space. Tons more if Davidson puts some players on LTIR. And yet Davidson is not deliberately tanking??? I believe the injuries and the Perry fiasco has allowed Davidson to pack it in and try to get another top 3 pick. Low risks moves are available, waiver options or Mantha/Garland type of moves are out. The have the draft capital, cap space and top of the waiver position to improve team, if he says he is not able he is not being honest. I do worry about the losing culture and bad habits, however at this point might as well try and get another high end pick. My biggest concern right now is Reichel and will he use the rest of the seaon to show he is part of core. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 24, 2023 14:22:46 GMT -6
Kane waited for a phone call. He eventually signed for $2.75 M..... Toews still has not signed anywhere. Neither has Kessell.... So many waiver wire options.... So many potential low cost trade possibilities with teams anxious to dump contracts... Well over $10 million in cap space. Tons more if Davidson puts some players on LTIR. And yet Davidson is not deliberately tanking??? We can’t sit here and say we know what has happened. Both Toews and Kane said for a fact they wanted no part of a rebuilding team. So the team did what they had to. Toews is retiring. I doubt he makes it back. Just the way she goes. I heard many times and we spoke on here about 19/88 wanting multi year deals. Toews hasn’t played and Kane just started. So they wouldn’t have been much help anyways. So to that end. They loaded the lineup as best they could to reach the cap floor and not handcuff the team moving forward. It’s not that bad. It’ll work out. We’ve already got a few nice pieces in place. Let’s watch the grow. We should be happy we have an actual plan in place. The team lacked a direction for a decade. I don’t think they’ve purposely tanked. They did exactly what you clamoured for!!! |
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Post by mvr on Dec 24, 2023 15:14:48 GMT -6
The Davidson tank job is not at all what I "clamoured for." The results, however, match pretty much exactly what I anticipated.
You might recall, I wanted Toews and Kane offered above market contracts with term. I suggested the team resign Kubalik, Lankinen, Caleb Jones and many of the others to build some roster stability.
I would have been active this summer and spent close to the cap. I would be making an effort throughout the season to claim players on waivers, take on salary dumps and sign college/Euro free agents to stock the AHL team and make it competitive.
Until I'd fully settled the ship, several of the young impressionable kids - including Kevin Korchinski and Lucas Reichel, would still be in Juniors or the AHL.
I probably would have traded down from the first overall pick. Though I am impressed with Bedard, one star player does not make a team. I still think a real opportunity has been lost to stock the system.
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Post by BigT on Dec 24, 2023 16:59:47 GMT -6
The Davidson tank job is not at all what I "clamoured for." The results, however, match pretty much exactly what I anticipated. You might recall, I wanted Toews and Kane offered above market contracts with term. I suggested the team resign Kubalik, Lankinen, Caleb Jones and many of the others to build some roster stability. I would have been active this summer and spent close to the cap. I would be making an effort throughout the season to claim players on waivers, take on salary dumps and sign college/Euro free agents to stock the AHL team and make it competitive. Until I'd fully settled the ship, several of the young impressionable kids - including Kevin Korchinski and Lucas Reichel, would still be in Juniors or the AHL. I probably would have traded down from the first overall pick. Though I am impressed with Bedard, one star player does not make a team. I still think a real opportunity has been lost to stock the system. The one thing I don’t think you want to come to grips with is that you just can’t spend to the cap limit. No one really wants a one or two year deal. And if they did, the Hawks found them. So is it worth it to sign guys to 4-7 year deals just to pay someone to take them in 3 years time because they need cap space. So there’s no sense in pretending we know that someone wants to take a 1 year deal in free agency. If they get injured, they won’t have a chance to cash in again. It’s just not smart!!! |
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Post by shooter61 on Dec 25, 2023 8:12:42 GMT -6
Kane waited for a phone call. He eventually signed for $2.75 M..... Toews still has not signed anywhere. Neither has Kessell.... So many waiver wire options.... So many potential low cost trade possibilities with teams anxious to dump contracts... Well over $10 million in cap space. Tons more if Davidson puts some players on LTIR. And yet Davidson is not deliberately tanking??? OMG, How do you know he waited for a phone call that never came, Toews, won't sign anywhere till he's ready if he is ever ready, dumpster diving is what the hawks have done in the 80's and 90's , look how fart that got them , yes lets spend all our cap on wavier wire pick ups, would that change your view on tanking, For a fan base that has gone through what the hawk fans have put up with , I don't see why we have to second guess every move and non move KD makes, Can we not give him a chance to finish what he started, it's only been 2 years and you guys are already picking apart his work, Reichel, might not make it , but you guys want to blame the system, I just don't get it. this should be a time of excitement and hope , not a bunch of glass have full guys |
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Post by T-man2010 on Dec 25, 2023 8:25:36 GMT -6
Kane waited for a phone call. He eventually signed for $2.75 M..... Toews still has not signed anywhere. Neither has Kessell.... So many waiver wire options.... So many potential low cost trade possibilities with teams anxious to dump contracts... Well over $10 million in cap space. Tons more if Davidson puts some players on LTIR. And yet Davidson is not deliberately tanking??? OMG, How do you know he waited for a phone call that never came, Toews, won't sign anywhere till he's ready if he is ever ready, dumpster diving is what the hawks have done in the 80's and 90's , look how fart that got them , yes lets spend all our cap on wavier wire pick ups, would that change your view on tanking, For a fan base that has gone through what the hawk fans have put up with , I don't see why we have to second guess every move and non move KD makes, Can we not give him a chance to finish what he started, it's only been 2 years and you guys are already picking apart his work, Reichel, might not make it , but you guys want to blame the system, I just don't get it. this should be a time of excitement and hope , not a bunch of glass have full guys Glad the glass is half full instead of bone dry. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 25, 2023 19:07:32 GMT -6
OMG, How do you know he waited for a phone call that never came, Toews, won't sign anywhere till he's ready if he is ever ready, dumpster diving is what the hawks have done in the 80's and 90's , look how fart that got them , yes lets spend all our cap on wavier wire pick ups, would that change your view on tanking, For a fan base that has gone through what the hawk fans have put up with , I don't see why we have to second guess every move and non move KD makes, Can we not give him a chance to finish what he started, it's only been 2 years and you guys are already picking apart his work, Reichel, might not make it , but you guys want to blame the system, I just don't get it. this should be a time of excitement and hope , not a bunch of glass have full guys Glad the glass is half full instead of bone dry. If the glass is half full, you’ve got too big of a glass!!! |
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Post by LordKOTL on Dec 26, 2023 12:16:04 GMT -6
The Davidson tank job is not at all what I "clamoured for." The results, however, match pretty much exactly what I anticipated. You might recall, I wanted Toews and Kane offered above market contracts with term. I suggested the team resign Kubalik, Lankinen, Caleb Jones and many of the others to build some roster stability. I would have been active this summer and spent close to the cap. I would be making an effort throughout the season to claim players on waivers, take on salary dumps and sign college/Euro free agents to stock the AHL team and make it competitive. Until I'd fully settled the ship, several of the young impressionable kids - including Kevin Korchinski and Lucas Reichel, would still be in Juniors or the AHL. I probably would have traded down from the first overall pick. Though I am impressed with Bedard, one star player does not make a team. I still think a real opportunity has been lost to stock the system. The one thing I don’t think you want to come to grips with is that you just can’t spend to the cap limit. No one really wants a one or two year deal. And if they did, the Hawks found them. So is it worth it to sign guys to 4-7 year deals just to pay someone to take them in 3 years time because they need cap space. So there’s no sense in pretending we know that someone wants to take a 1 year deal in free agency. If they get injured, they won’t have a chance to cash in again. It’s just not smart!!! Exactly. Right now duration has to be looked at. The 'hawks have a plethora of kids. Not all will make it but some will. Do we really want someone who will take 7M for 4-5 years as a stopgap? What is the chance that they can be flipped early if a kid develops quick? I agree with getting outside help (if avaliable) to be *part* of the budding core and spenmding the capital to do it. However, anyone who is a stopgap should have low-duration deals. We do need the roster agility to be able to slot-in new, permanent players as-needed. Losing some of the vets, and kids for a bit, sucked. But the long game has to be in play here. Korch, Bedard, Vlassic, those guys are most likley the future. They have to learn to take their knocks. At some point Hall, Foligno, Jones, etc. would not be there for them. Why not learn now rather than later? And on that point I'm not buying the losing culture, either. If that was the case then Keith and Seabs would have been ruined in 2006 and 2007. They weren't. If Reichel and Soder can't hack it, then we might as well ship them out and kick the can down the road. Either they will glom onto a winning team but start sucking again when that team starts to inevitably lose, or they needed a change of scenery. Either way I think we want the players who will rise to the adversity and try to overcome it. We want players who will make us good, not only be good when they are surrounded by othe3r good players. Granted, both ar young and may still be fixible, but still, almost every leader of every winning francise out there at some point learned to play on bad teams and do what they can to get them out of it. |
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Post by mvr on Dec 26, 2023 14:23:41 GMT -6
The one thing I don’t think you want to come to grips with is that you just can’t spend to the cap limit. No one really wants a one or two year deal. And if they did, the Hawks found them. So is it worth it to sign guys to 4-7 year deals just to pay someone to take them in 3 years time because they need cap space. So there’s no sense in pretending we know that someone wants to take a 1 year deal in free agency. If they get injured, they won’t have a chance to cash in again. It’s just not smart!!! Exactly. Right now duration has to be looked at. The 'hawks have a plethora of kids. Not all will make it but some will. Do we really want someone who will take 7M for 4-5 years as a stopgap? What is the chance that they can be flipped early if a kid develops quick? I agree with getting outside help (if avaliable) to be *part* of the budding core and spenmding the capital to do it. However, anyone who is a stopgap should have low-duration deals. We do need the roster agility to be able to slot-in new, permanent players as-needed. Losing some of the vets, and kids for a bit, sucked. But the long game has to be in play here. Korch, Bedard, Vlassic, those guys are most likley the future. They have to learn to take their knocks. At some point Hall, Foligno, Jones, etc. would not be there for them. Why not learn now rather than later? And on that point I'm not buying the losing culture, either. If that was the case then Keith and Seabs would have been ruined in 2006 and 2007. They weren't. If Reichel and Soder can't hack it, then we might as well ship them out and kick the can down the road. Either they will glom onto a winning team but start sucking again when that team starts to inevitably lose, or they needed a change of scenery. Either way I think we want the players who will rise to the adversity and try to overcome it. We want players who will make us good, not only be good when they are surrounded by othe3r good players. Granted, both ar young and may still be fixible, but still, almost every leader of every winning francise out there at some point learned to play on bad teams and do what they can to get them out of it. I agree with everything you wrote here (at least until the final paragraph). Any additions should be short term. The problem as I see it is that Davidson (and his admirers) present rebuilds as a binary situation. This is a false argument. A team easily can improve the present roster while fully committing to the long term (ie keeping all draft picks, preserving future cap space etc). Quality players are made available all the time, and many are signed to short term deals. It is not difficult to improve the present roster given how much unused cap space the team is holding back. The team just needs to be willing to spend money. Davidson is deliberately tanking (again), and anyone who believes otherwise is not seeing the situation clearly. |
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Post by mvr on Dec 26, 2023 14:53:04 GMT -6
Keith and Seabrook joined a team on the upswing with several players brought in by Tallon to help steady the roster. Davidson had these anchors (Toews and Kane) who could help with the transition. According to Scott Wheeler of The Athletic (and other national beat guys) the Hawks made it clear the players were not welcome. www.hawksinsider.com/Patrick-Kane-exposes-the-Blackhawks-for-blindsiding-him-and-Jonathan-Toews-306468Given this report, it seems clear that Kane would have been more than happy to come back if presented the opportunity. Of course, the player could have been misquoted. But I don't think so. |
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Post by 2old4this on Dec 26, 2023 15:08:33 GMT -6
Regarding the final paragraph. Keith and Seabrook joined a team on the upswing with several players brought in by Tallon to help steady the roster. Davidson had these anchors (Toews and Kane) who could help with the transition. According to Scott Wheeler of The Athletic (and other national beat guys) the Hawks made it clear the players were not welcome. www.hawksinsider.com/Patrick-Kane-exposes-the-Blackhawks-for-blindsiding-him-and-Jonathan-Toews-306468Given this report, it seems clear that Kane would have been more than happy to come back if presented the opportunity. Of course, the player could have been misquoted. But I don't think so. In one of his early press conferences, Davidson was asked if there was a place for Toews and Kane on the team, He took his time answering yes after a silence in which he was clearly choosing his words carefully. "yes, there is a place for them on this team" (last half of the quote not sure about them exact wording) As far as I'm concerned, he was lying. He clearly wanted them for trade fodder. |
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Post by ukhawk on Dec 26, 2023 16:05:40 GMT -6
I can understand why KD didn't offer Toews and Kane deals (not that I think it was right). That dynasty was done and ended, he needs Bedard (or whomever at the time was drafted) to create their own and be a leader in the room. If Toews and Kane are in the room that is never going to happen - they are HOFs of the sport, not just Blackhawk legends.
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Post by mvr on Dec 26, 2023 18:37:35 GMT -6
When an insecure new boss comes in, he cleans house. He does not want to be questioned or second guessed. Older staff members have histories with their employers. When they speak, others listen.
Davidson felt threatened by Toews and Kane. Sending them packing was for the general manager's benefit, not any of the young players.
This is the real reason. This is why I will never like him.
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Dec 26, 2023 20:19:55 GMT -6
When an insecure new boss comes in, he cleans house. He does not want to be questioned or second guessed. Older staff members have histories with their employers. When they speak, others listen. Davidson felt threatened by Toews and Kane. Sending them packing was for the general manager's benefit, not any of the young players. This is the real reason. This is why I will never like him. That's a lot of assumptions there. One thing I never got from KD was the feeling he was insecure, but you can assume whatever you want. And KDs been very open about talking to and listening to everyone around him, plus he knew he had to strip this team down. It's been mentioned many times that Kane and Toews both said they don't want to be part of a full rebuild at their stages of their careers, yet you keep saying KD wanted them gone. |
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