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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 26, 2023 20:39:10 GMT -6
The one thing I don’t think you want to come to grips with is that you just can’t spend to the cap limit. No one really wants a one or two year deal. And if they did, the Hawks found them. So is it worth it to sign guys to 4-7 year deals just to pay someone to take them in 3 years time because they need cap space. So there’s no sense in pretending we know that someone wants to take a 1 year deal in free agency. If they get injured, they won’t have a chance to cash in again. It’s just not smart!!! Exactly. Right now duration has to be looked at. The 'hawks have a plethora of kids. Not all will make it but some will. Do we really want someone who will take 7M for 4-5 years as a stopgap? What is the chance that they can be flipped early if a kid develops quick? I agree with getting outside help (if avaliable) to be *part* of the budding core and spenmding the capital to do it. However, anyone who is a stopgap should have low-duration deals. We do need the roster agility to be able to slot-in new, permanent players as-needed. Losing some of the vets, and kids for a bit, sucked. But the long game has to be in play here. Korch, Bedard, Vlassic, those guys are most likley the future. They have to learn to take their knocks. At some point Hall, Foligno, Jones, etc. would not be there for them. Why not learn now rather than later? And on that point I'm not buying the losing culture, either. If that was the case then Keith and Seabs would have been ruined in 2006 and 2007. They weren't. If Reichel and Soder can't hack it, then we might as well ship them out and kick the can down the road. Either they will glom onto a winning team but start sucking again when that team starts to inevitably lose, or they needed a change of scenery. Either way I think we want the players who will rise to the adversity and try to overcome it. We want players who will make us good, not only be good when they are surrounded by othe3r good players. Granted, both ar young and may still be fixible, but still, almost every leader of every winning francise out there at some point learned to play on bad teams and do what they can to get them out of it. OK, so KD is tanking again, at least as MVR thinks and I don't disagree. Do you think another intentional tank is going on? Presumably, this will be the last one as it will be time to get as many of the draft picks as possible into Hawk uniforms to begin their transformation into NHL regulars; and to start playing to win. It seems that you are saying that you believe that the team should acquire some short term vets as at little cost as possible in order to shore up the forces somewhat and provide some experience and help to the youngsters. Thus, it appears that you are envisioning a team in the next year, or two, of mostly as many of the latest draft picks that can possibly play at the NHL level along with a few short duration vets. Right? I would assume that this type of roster would continue until they have a better idea of how good are the draft picks and what they will need in the way of long-term free agents to make it a solid team. Is that your view? If I have misstated your proposals for making this a better team, please let me know. I am only trying to understand what posters here are thinking about how to create a Cup competitive team. Thanks |
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Post by LordKOTL on Dec 26, 2023 23:10:30 GMT -6
Exactly. Right now duration has to be looked at. The 'hawks have a plethora of kids. Not all will make it but some will. Do we really want someone who will take 7M for 4-5 years as a stopgap? What is the chance that they can be flipped early if a kid develops quick? I agree with getting outside help (if avaliable) to be *part* of the budding core and spenmding the capital to do it. However, anyone who is a stopgap should have low-duration deals. We do need the roster agility to be able to slot-in new, permanent players as-needed. Losing some of the vets, and kids for a bit, sucked. But the long game has to be in play here. Korch, Bedard, Vlassic, those guys are most likley the future. They have to learn to take their knocks. At some point Hall, Foligno, Jones, etc. would not be there for them. Why not learn now rather than later? And on that point I'm not buying the losing culture, either. If that was the case then Keith and Seabs would have been ruined in 2006 and 2007. They weren't. If Reichel and Soder can't hack it, then we might as well ship them out and kick the can down the road. Either they will glom onto a winning team but start sucking again when that team starts to inevitably lose, or they needed a change of scenery. Either way I think we want the players who will rise to the adversity and try to overcome it. We want players who will make us good, not only be good when they are surrounded by othe3r good players. Granted, both ar young and may still be fixible, but still, almost every leader of every winning francise out there at some point learned to play on bad teams and do what they can to get them out of it. OK, so KD is tanking again, at least as MVR thinks and I don't disagree. Do you think another intentional tank is going on? Presumably, this will be the last one as it will be time to get as many of the draft picks as possible into Hawk uniforms to begin their transformation into NHL regulars; and to start playing to win. It seems that you are saying that you believe that the team should acquire some short term vets as at little cost as possible in order to shore up the forces somewhat and provide some experience and help to the youngsters. Thus, it appears that you are envisioning a team in the next year, or two, of mostly as many of the latest draft picks that can possibly play at the NHL level along with a few short duration vets. Right? I would assume that this type of roster would continue until they have a better idea of how good are the draft picks and what they will need in the way of long-term free agents to make it a solid team. Is that your view? If I have misstated your proposals for making this a better team, please let me know. I am only trying to understand what posters here are thinking about how to create a Cup competitive team. Thanks Not a deliberate, intentional tank. More like a "let the kids do what they can with what we got, and if they don't do that well we get another high pick. If they do indeed do well, then it's gravy." But, we are not doing well. So I can see how this looks like a deliberate tank, but it's more like not giving up assets to win now in the short-term, but carefully making moves that benefit the squad long-term. I think the main difference is that last year, KD/LR tried to insulate and isolate as many of the kids in the juniors/AHL as possible, while this year we're seeing more of the kids coming up with a chance to show their stuff, and allowing the kids the chance to make mistakes and learn from them. So, instead of sending, say, Reichel to Rockford to "avoid the losing culture" and bringing up someone who's "just a guy" like Gust. This year he's allowed to sink or swim on his own merits. Same with all the other kids. Last year we wouldn't have had Vlassic, Kaiser, Phillips, etc. up for the extended periods like we have this season. I think over a sizable chuink of the season we are seeing what these kids are made of--if not for them being part of our plans, or for them being a piece we let them max the value and bring in another needed asset, then just to register if we cut them loose or not. My opinion on how to do another build is no so much short-term vets at this point as much as it's to think long term rather than short term. Which kids do we have are going to be part of the next gen of players? Which ones don't look like they'll cut it. Which vets do we want to keep around because they're providing leadership? Which ones aren't and that we should part ways with? If a vet is doing well for us, like Foligno, then yeah, we should keep him around for a few years. If not, like Zaitszev, we should be trying to ditch them as soon as possible, but not giving up real assets to do so. If we have holes in our lineup (and we have many--some Goatse.cx sized), then how do we go about filling them? Not all of our prospects are going to hit, so the ones that aren't, or the superfluous ones, we should be looking into moving them and acquiring someone who will fill those holes--preferably someone young, proven, and if they are someone who can fill a hole well, then sign them long-term as someone who will be part of the new core. See Also: Brian Campbell. We have some idea about where some guys are already. On the positive: I think Vlasic is the defensive part of a pair and could max out as a #2, but more likely a 3/4. On the negative, Reichel is not the coveted #2C. So, ideally we do not need to look for someone who is a Vlassic--at least a lefty. On the other side we know we'll likely need a #2C, so if we can acquire that via a trade and not giving up the farm, or via an FA acquisition this offseason then great--especially if Moore, Nazar, etc. are a few years out. But, for making the team better right now? I don't see many moves. Any player we have who is really worth a squirt of piss on the trade market is likely in our future plans--even if the short-term future (I'd think Foligno would fall into that category). We couldn't give away anyone else--either they are bad, old, or they are paid way too much. So, why make a move for the sake of making a move? But other than that, we also have to consider some of the kids' timelines. Come 2027 Bedard will need to be paid. Korchinski, if he settles down and gets better, will also need to be paid. Vlassic is due a decent raise this offseason. The rest of the roster needs to be filled but if the only acquisitions who could be had are sitting on, or wanting 4-5 year deals or more, it doesn't help unless they are going to be new core members, not stopgaps. Thankfully no one aside from Seth Jones is signed beyond when Bedard comes due. There will be guys who will be signed beyond that time but every one who is, is money that can go into filling the roster better afterwards. So we have to be smart on *how* we weaponize our cap. Taking on a guy not doing much for the duration (like Couturier from the Flyers) doesn't help the team at all, but if they are short duration then it might make sense to look into weaponizing the cap even if we have to live with an albatross contract--especially if the pieces coming back are nice. It would be foolish to do another Seth Jones move. A player we didn't need in the moment except to try to go for it again when the previous core was well past the use-by date that anyone with any hockey IQ (Read: not a beancounter) could see; who could have been acquired cheaper a year later, and without a contract that would pay him the duration. Yeah, he might be a 2/3 guy depending on whether or not his partner is defensively responsible, but even if we do get 9.5M of play out of him at some point, it's likely not going to happen in 2028, 2029, or even 2030 when he's up for UFA. We have the cap now to absorb his deal somewhat (like we had the cap to absorb Khabi's albatross deal in 2006), but any more contracts like that will hurt. It sucks that they are losing now (and playing a lot like the previous gen did back in 2006), but I don't want to mortgage the future for non-guaranteed short-term success this year at the expense of turning out like Edmonton or Toronto have. |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 27, 2023 10:45:47 GMT -6
When an insecure new boss comes in, he cleans house. He does not want to be questioned or second guessed. Older staff members have histories with their employers. When they speak, others listen. Davidson felt threatened by Toews and Kane. Sending them packing was for the general manager's benefit, not any of the young players. This is the real reason. This is why I will never like him. That's a lot of assumptions there. One thing I never got from KD was the feeling he was insecure, but you can assume whatever you want. And KDs been very open about talking to and listening to everyone around him, plus he knew he had to strip this team down. It's been mentioned many times that Kane and Toews both said they don't want to be part of a full rebuild at their stages of their careers, yet you keep saying KD wanted them gone. To be fair,let's consider what everyone actually said publicly. Kane and Toews did say they weren't interested in a full rebuild but wasn't that some time ago? It was certainly well before the team won the Bedard sweeps. Wasn't it just last April when the GM called JT into his office to advise him the team would be offering no contract the following season and then repeating the same about Kane in the media? If that's not the UN-welcome mat.....what is? |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 27, 2023 11:15:42 GMT -6
OK, so KD is tanking again, at least as MVR thinks and I don't disagree. Do you think another intentional tank is going on? Presumably, this will be the last one as it will be time to get as many of the draft picks as possible into Hawk uniforms to begin their transformation into NHL regulars; and to start playing to win. It seems that you are saying that you believe that the team should acquire some short term vets as at little cost as possible in order to shore up the forces somewhat and provide some experience and help to the youngsters. Thus, it appears that you are envisioning a team in the next year, or two, of mostly as many of the latest draft picks that can possibly play at the NHL level along with a few short duration vets. Right? I would assume that this type of roster would continue until they have a better idea of how good are the draft picks and what they will need in the way of long-term free agents to make it a solid team. Is that your view? If I have misstated your proposals for making this a better team, please let me know. I am only trying to understand what posters here are thinking about how to create a Cup competitive team. Thanks Not a deliberate, intentional tank. More like a "let the kids do what they can with what we got, and if they don't do that well we get another high pick. If they do indeed do well, then it's gravy." But, we are not doing well. So I can see how this looks like a deliberate tank, but it's more like not giving up assets to win now in the short-term, but carefully making moves that benefit the squad long-term. I think the main difference is that last year, KD/LR tried to insulate and isolate as many of the kids in the juniors/AHL as possible, while this year we're seeing more of the kids coming up with a chance to show their stuff, and allowing the kids the chance to make mistakes and learn from them. So, instead of sending, say, Reichel to Rockford to "avoid the losing culture" and bringing up someone who's "just a guy" like Gust. This year he's allowed to sink or swim on his own merits. Same with all the other kids. Last year we wouldn't have had Vlassic, Kaiser, Phillips, etc. up for the extended periods like we have this season. I think over a sizable chuink of the season we are seeing what these kids are made of--if not for them being part of our plans, or for them being a piece we let them max the value and bring in another needed asset, then just to register if we cut them loose or not. My opinion on how to do another build is no so much short-term vets at this point as much as it's to think long term rather than short term. Which kids do we have are going to be part of the next gen of players? Which ones don't look like they'll cut it. Which vets do we want to keep around because they're providing leadership? Which ones aren't and that we should part ways with? If a vet is doing well for us, like Foligno, then yeah, we should keep him around for a few years. If not, like Zaitszev, we should be trying to ditch them as soon as possible, but not giving up real assets to do so. If we have holes in our lineup (and we have many--some Goatse.cx sized), then how do we go about filling them? Not all of our prospects are going to hit, so the ones that aren't, or the superfluous ones, we should be looking into moving them and acquiring someone who will fill those holes--preferably someone young, proven, and if they are someone who can fill a hole well, then sign them long-term as someone who will be part of the new core. See Also: Brian Campbell. We have some idea about where some guys are already. On the positive: I think Vlasic is the defensive part of a pair and could max out as a #2, but more likely a 3/4. On the negative, Reichel is not the coveted #2C. So, ideally we do not need to look for someone who is a Vlassic--at least a lefty. On the other side we know we'll likely need a #2C, so if we can acquire that via a trade and not giving up the farm, or via an FA acquisition this offseason then great--especially if Moore, Nazar, etc. are a few years out. But, for making the team better right now? I don't see many moves. Any player we have who is really worth a squirt of piss on the trade market is likely in our future plans--even if the short-term future (I'd think Foligno would fall into that category). We couldn't give away anyone else--either they are bad, old, or they are paid way too much. So, why make a move for the sake of making a move? But other than that, we also have to consider some of the kids' timelines. Come 2027 Bedard will need to be paid. Korchinski, if he settles down and gets better, will also need to be paid. Vlassic is due a decent raise this offseason. The rest of the roster needs to be filled but if the only acquisitions who could be had are sitting on, or wanting 4-5 year deals or more, it doesn't help unless they are going to be new core members, not stopgaps. Thankfully no one aside from Seth Jones is signed beyond when Bedard comes due. There will be guys who will be signed beyond that time but every one who is, is money that can go into filling the roster better afterwards. So we have to be smart on *how* we weaponize our cap. Taking on a guy not doing much for the duration (like Couturier from the Flyers) doesn't help the team at all, but if they are short duration then it might make sense to look into weaponizing the cap even if we have to live with an albatross contract--especially if the pieces coming back are nice. It would be foolish to do another Seth Jones move. A player we didn't need in the moment except to try to go for it again when the previous core was well past the use-by date that anyone with any hockey IQ (Read: not a beancounter) could see; who could have been acquired cheaper a year later, and without a contract that would pay him the duration. Yeah, he might be a 2/3 guy depending on whether or not his partner is defensively responsible, but even if we do get 9.5M of play out of him at some point, it's likely not going to happen in 2028, 2029, or even 2030 when he's up for UFA. We have the cap now to absorb his deal somewhat (like we had the cap to absorb Khabi's albatross deal in 2006), but any more contracts like that will hurt. It sucks that they are losing now (and playing a lot like the previous gen did back in 2006), but I don't want to mortgage the future for non-guaranteed short-term success this year at the expense of turning out like Edmonton or Toronto have. The first part of the rebuild process reminds me of building a cedar fence a couple of years ago. I went to the lumber yard and rummaged through the pile of fence boards and discarded all defective boards with knots, holes and defects until I finally ended up with 90 boards that were fine specimens and made the cut to be nailed to the cross. After that process occurs, or during it when enough is known about the pluses and minuses of each draftee NHL wannabee, the team will have to start signing the best, cheapest free agents or trade targets available for the known needs of the franchise. Then, it will be a matter of putting the financials together and seeing how well they can get the entire roster to perform together. It won't be easy and the road to Cupville will be loaded with potholes and ambushes. |
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Post by 2old4this on Dec 27, 2023 21:12:55 GMT -6
I believe that there is no such thing as an accidental tank. A tank is deliberate and intentional, orchestrated by the GM. And the owners are probably in on it. But not the players. They want to win more than anything. As does the coach.
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Post by BigT on Dec 27, 2023 23:00:43 GMT -6
I believe that there is no such thing as an accidental tank. A tank is deliberate and intentional, orchestrated by the GM. And the owners are probably in on it. But not the players. They want to win more than anything. As does the coach. Of course it’s intentional. KD laid out his plan from day one. He was already part of the Hawks front office. He knew what was going on. He wanted his team. A different direction. The main problem with rebuilding is teams don’t see through the plan. They gave half way through to save their asses. And I get that. No one wants to be fired. And when the GM is fired or leaves half way through. The new guy doesn’t want to finish it, and they usually turn to free agency or trade valuable assets for a player. Like what the Leaves did for Kessel. Only to start a full rebuild 7 years later. They should have seen it through but Burke had other plans. I don’t believe the Hawks front office was putting out the worst roster ever. But they did what MVR has exactly said to do. They got what was available on the free agent market for short term. Donato, AA, Perry, Foligno etc. picked up Hall. They have to let the kids play. There’s no arguing that. And they are letting them. If this team where whole. I truly believe they’d be in contention for a playoff spot. Maybe not 2-3 points back. But within striking distance. I’d think 6-9 points. The west is rather weak. But the list of injuries is unreal. Get those guys back and things are looking much better!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 28, 2023 11:08:24 GMT -6
I believe that there is no such thing as an accidental tank. A tank is deliberate and intentional, orchestrated by the GM. And the owners are probably in on it. But not the players. They want to win more than anything. As does the coach.
Of course it’s intentional. KD laid out his plan from day one. He was already part of the Hawks front office. He knew what was going on. He wanted his team. A different direction. The main problem with rebuilding is teams don’t see through the plan. They gave half way through to save their asses. And I get that. No one wants to be fired. And when the GM is fired or leaves half way through. The new guy doesn’t want to finish it, and they usually turn to free agency or trade valuable assets for a player. Like what the Leaves did for Kessel. Only to start a full rebuild 7 years later. They should have seen it through but Burke had other plans. I don’t believe the Hawks front office was putting out the worst roster ever. But they did what MVR has exactly said to do. They got what was available on the free agent market for short term. Donato, AA, Perry, Foligno etc. picked up Hall. They have to let the kids play. There’s no arguing that. And they are letting them. If this team where whole. I truly believe they’d be in contention for a playoff spot. Maybe not 2-3 points back. But within striking distance. I’d think 6-9 points. The west is rather weak. But the list of injuries is unreal. Get those guys back and things are looking much better!!! I'm a bit lost,was the team intentionally tanking this year or was it a PO contender if whole? Wouldn't being a PO contender this year be 'not seeing things through'? It seems every loss is proof the plan's working and every win proves how far ahead of schedule things are........the FO is in a true 'no-lose' situation for several years. |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 28, 2023 11:10:18 GMT -6
I believe that there is no such thing as an accidental tank. A tank is deliberate and intentional, orchestrated by the GM. And the owners are probably in on it. But not the players. They want to win more than anything. As does the coach. The conclusion is easy when a team is 10-15M under the cap. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 28, 2023 11:45:06 GMT -6
Of course it’s intentional. KD laid out his plan from day one. He was already part of the Hawks front office. He knew what was going on. He wanted his team. A different direction. The main problem with rebuilding is teams don’t see through the plan. They gave half way through to save their asses. And I get that. No one wants to be fired. And when the GM is fired or leaves half way through. The new guy doesn’t want to finish it, and they usually turn to free agency or trade valuable assets for a player. Like what the Leaves did for Kessel. Only to start a full rebuild 7 years later. They should have seen it through but Burke had other plans. I don’t believe the Hawks front office was putting out the worst roster ever. But they did what MVR has exactly said to do. They got what was available on the free agent market for short term. Donato, AA, Perry, Foligno etc. picked up Hall. They have to let the kids play. There’s no arguing that. And they are letting them. If this team where whole. I truly believe they’d be in contention for a playoff spot. Maybe not 2-3 points back. But within striking distance. I’d think 6-9 points. The west is rather weak. But the list of injuries is unreal. Get those guys back and things are looking much better!!! I'm a bit lost,was the team intentionally tanking this year or was it a PO contender if whole? Wouldn't being a PO contender this year be 'not seeing things through'? It seems every loss is proof the plan's working and every win proves how far ahead of schedule things are........the FO is in a true 'no-lose' situation for several years. Sorry, I wasn’t the most clear. The tank is intentional by not spending to the cap and not looking to make the team as good as it could be. Now, by doing that, the team would be giving up assets they terribly need. Hence, not seeing it through. The West is meh this year. The Hawks would be a much better team if they were “whole” or not injured. The team is depleted as of now. It is deliberate to not get help. They’re holding on to their assets. Nazar has a litany of assists today. 4 I believe. That’s who other teams will want. They don’t want the Hawks B prospects. They want the top prospects and or the young kids on the roster. Vlasic, Reichel, Korchinski etc. So while it’s deliberate to let the team tank. They did try to better the team in the offseason. It has failed with injuries. So, I hope I cleared that up!!! |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Dec 28, 2023 17:09:39 GMT -6
I'm a bit lost,was the team intentionally tanking this year or was it a PO contender if whole? Wouldn't being a PO contender this year be 'not seeing things through'? It seems every loss is proof the plan's working and every win proves how far ahead of schedule things are........the FO is in a true 'no-lose' situation for several years. Sorry, I wasn’t the most clear. The tank is intentional by not spending to the cap and not looking to make the team as good as it could be. Now, by doing that, the team would be giving up assets they terribly need. Hence, not seeing it through. The West is meh this year. The Hawks would be a much better team if they were “whole” or not injured. The team is depleted as of now. It is deliberate to not get help. They’re holding on to their assets. Nazar has a litany of assists today. 4 I believe. That’s who other teams will want. They don’t want the Hawks B prospects. They want the top prospects and or the young kids on the roster. Vlasic, Reichel, Korchinski etc. So while it’s deliberate to let the team tank. They did try to better the team in the offseason. It has failed with injuries. So, I hope I cleared that up!!! I think the tank this year compared to last was to get a top 10 pick, or top 15. Last season was for the #1, 4-5 being the lowest. But injuries changed that and it's now for the top 5 again. Sucks short term but it'll definitely help long term, especially with drafting high in each round. |
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Post by mvr on Dec 28, 2023 19:43:46 GMT -6
I believe that there is no such thing as an accidental tank. A tank is deliberate and intentional, orchestrated by the GM. And the owners are probably in on it. But not the players. They want to win more than anything. As does the coach. The conclusion is easy when a team is 10-15M under the cap. Perhaps if we are talking about the Ottawa Senators or some other small market team..... But we are not. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 28, 2023 21:45:28 GMT -6
The conclusion is easy when a team is 10-15M under the cap. Perhaps if we are talking about the Ottawa Senators or some other small market team..... But we are not. I think you are assuming that the Hawks could have spent to the cap with all short term deals? Who or what are you referring to? Who to sign? How long? And remember Hawks are a bottom team. Who wants to come to Chicago at this point? We can all assume but it makes an ASS out of U and ME. I think it’s not rational to think that every UFA wants to come to Chicago and on the short term. It’s rational to think that the Hawks signed as many short term guys as they could. The so called tanking is from the injuries!!! |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 28, 2023 21:45:49 GMT -6
Hell, they might as well tank and see what they can get. This is not a playoff team and there is little point in trying to improve their position much. They might as well finish in the lottery zone and hope for the best. Then, go for it, whatever that might involve, next year. But, they will still be a pretty weak team next year.
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Post by BigT on Dec 28, 2023 21:57:08 GMT -6
Hell, they might as well tank and see what they can get. This is not a playoff team and there is little point in trying to improve their position much. They might as well finish in the lottery zone and hope for the best. Then, go for it, whatever that might involve, next year. But, they will still be a pretty weak team next year. You’re right. It’s a full rebuild. I think we’ll see a better team next year mainly by additions from subtraction. Gotta think 2 of Nazar, Moore and Dach get full time status next year. And at least another Dman will make it. So there’ll be some growing pains. But the team will hit a good stride after Xmas next year. Just watch!!! |
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Post by vadarx on Dec 28, 2023 22:03:46 GMT -6
Hell, they might as well tank and see what they can get. This is not a playoff team and there is little point in trying to improve their position much. They might as well finish in the lottery zone and hope for the best. Then, go for it, whatever that might involve, next year. But, they will still be a pretty weak team next year. You’re right. It’s a full rebuild. I think we’ll see a better team next year mainly by additions from subtraction. Gotta think 2 of Nazar, Moore and Dach get full time status next year. And at least another Dman will make it. So there’ll be some growing pains. But the team will hit a good stride after Xmas next year. Just watch!!! they'll also have their fledgling superstar playing with a year of pro experience under his belt. I'd like to see Dach a bit this season, if only to see what we might have on the power forward front. Moore almost certainly will spend another season in Minnesota. Frankie might make the jump, though. |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 29, 2023 9:58:09 GMT -6
I'm a bit lost,was the team intentionally tanking this year or was it a PO contender if whole? Wouldn't being a PO contender this year be 'not seeing things through'? It seems every loss is proof the plan's working and every win proves how far ahead of schedule things are........the FO is in a true 'no-lose' situation for several years. Sorry, I wasn’t the most clear. The tank is intentional by not spending to the cap and not looking to make the team as good as it could be. Now, by doing that, the team would be giving up assets they terribly need. Hence, not seeing it through. The West is meh this year. The Hawks would be a much better team if they were “whole” or not injured. The team is depleted as of now. It is deliberate to not get help. They’re holding on to their assets. Nazar has a litany of assists today. 4 I believe. That’s who other teams will want. They don’t want the Hawks B prospects. They want the top prospects and or the young kids on the roster. Vlasic, Reichel, Korchinski etc. So while it’s deliberate to let the team tank. They did try to better the team in the offseason. It has failed with injuries. So, I hope I cleared that up!!! This team doesn't need to part with ANY prospect at this point and shouldn't,especially important prospects. Their ability to improve substantially comes from their abundance of quality draft picks and the amount of cap-space that has to be spent just to reach the floor. The only prospect I ever recall anyone mentioning in a trade out is possibly one of the many left-shot D-men but I see no hurry for that ether because this team has the luxury of another few years to take their time with their kids. This combined with that 'treasure trove' of draft capitol and cap-space should yield outstanding results if things go well at all. I've never suggested trading prospects but I have suggested parting with some of the draft 'surplus' to obtain a quality player or two in the early 20's. The team's added five year's worth of 1st,2nd and 3rd round picks in the last two drafts alone and has two extra 1st's and three extra 2nd's in the next two and two extra 2nd's in '26' as well. What could TB's 1'st and LA's 2nd fetch next summer or Toronto's 1'st and Dallas' 2nd? There will be cap-strapped,pick-hungry teams with RFA's that they just won't be able to keep and the Hawks have enough 'bait' to land more than one of em. I'm not sure what anyone expected from Hall and Perry but I believe they we brought-in for two reasons,10M towards reaching the cap-floor and looking at their production from their last few years,they wouldn't upset the 'apple cart' as far as the team's record. Foligno's 4M helps too and the guy's been a welcomed addition in every way but the old warrior could fatigue or get injured with the minutes he's seeing. All three were character guy's though........or were supposed to be. |
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Post by mikeveisor on Dec 29, 2023 10:43:56 GMT -6
Sorry, I wasn’t the most clear. The tank is intentional by not spending to the cap and not looking to make the team as good as it could be. Now, by doing that, the team would be giving up assets they terribly need. Hence, not seeing it through. The West is meh this year. The Hawks would be a much better team if they were “whole” or not injured. The team is depleted as of now. It is deliberate to not get help. They’re holding on to their assets. Nazar has a litany of assists today. 4 I believe. That’s who other teams will want. They don’t want the Hawks B prospects. They want the top prospects and or the young kids on the roster. Vlasic, Reichel, Korchinski etc. So while it’s deliberate to let the team tank. They did try to better the team in the offseason. It has failed with injuries. So, I hope I cleared that up!!! This team doesn't need to part with ANY prospect at this point and shouldn't,especially important prospects. Their ability to improve substantially comes from their abundance of quality draft picks and the amount of cap-space that has to be spent just to reach the floor. The only prospect I ever recall anyone mentioning in a trade out is possibly one of the many left-shot D-men but I see no hurry for that ether because this team has the luxury of another few years to take their time with their kids. This combined with that 'treasure trove' of draft capitol and cap-space should yield outstanding results if things go well at all. Not sure how to wrangle in BigBarn's thoughts from Hawks Moves page that are relevant here, so I will do it the old fashioned by cutting/pasting: << Yeah out of the 3 I like Phillips the most maybe just because I have watched him a lot. Kaisier would be the best to move but will bring you the least. I have yet to see KD do any heavy lifting so I believe he does nothing. >> I am leery of giving up Philips - he reminds me a bit of Buff who never blossomed into a monster on D until he became a cap casualty and went to the Thrashers/Jets. I believe our strength through the 2024 draft is our prospect pool and its potential additions next Summer. If the next draft class is not overall as highly-ranked as 2023, fine - that capital still in hand helps more approaching the draft, moreso than the trade deadline (unless a bounty of talent can be extracted), IMHO. Hence Vlasic/Korch/Philips are all almost untouchable, Kaiser and Crevier less so (though Kaiser's speed reminds me of Keith; can't teach height). I would not push to trade any D-prospects for a "quick fix" of the Hall/Perry/AA Sh-tstorm of 2023, even if Wright is involved unless the Kraken are proposing and willing to overpay. That said, I would certainly have to hope that there is some heavy lifting prepwork that the team does everyday with guys they have their eye on and then putting out feelers to those other teams. I believe that with every prospect that comes up and shows well (Vlasic early-season; Philips the last month or so), our ability to use those increasing-assets will get us the best deal for the long haul and not just this season or next with another stopgap guy like much of the roster currently is. If a deal works at all - I would have to think that the GM and staff debate these things daily/weekly. As they say "work smarter, not harder" KD - don't try to convince everyone that you are the smartest guy in the room. From his "Kyle from Chicago" demeanor, I don't think he's doing that with other GMs nor with his in-house guys. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Dec 29, 2023 16:24:36 GMT -6
You’re right. It’s a full rebuild. I think we’ll see a better team next year mainly by additions from subtraction. Gotta think 2 of Nazar, Moore and Dach get full time status next year. And at least another Dman will make it. So there’ll be some growing pains. But the team will hit a good stride after Xmas next year. Just watch!!! they'll also have their fledgling superstar playing with a year of pro experience under his belt. I'd like to see Dach a bit this season, if only to see what we might have on the power forward front. Moore almost certainly will spend another season in Minnesota. Frankie might make the jump, though. Given the serious failings of the forwards that have been paraded thru the lineup this year, why hasn't Dach been given a serious try out, if he has so much potential? His stats are not really very impressive at Rockford, but maybe he brings more to the game than his stats. If so, what is it that makes him valuable? |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Dec 30, 2023 8:58:20 GMT -6
they'll also have their fledgling superstar playing with a year of pro experience under his bel I'd like to see Dach a bit this season, if only to see what we might have on the power forward front. Moore almost certainly will spend another season in Minnesota. Frankie might make the jump, though. Given the serious failings of the forwards that have been paraded thru the lineup this year, why hasn't Dach been given a serious try out, if he has so much potential? His stats are not really very impressive at Rockford, but maybe he brings more to the game than his stats. If so, what is it that makes him valuable? 16 pnts in 22 games are not bad at all for a power forward. Probs there best forward yes brings more plays with an edge bigger body. just no need to bring him up first year as a pro. Sure he will get late call up before hogs playoff if they make it. |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 30, 2023 11:02:46 GMT -6
they'll also have their fledgling superstar playing with a year of pro experience under his belt. I'd like to see Dach a bit this season, if only to see what we might have on the power forward front. Moore almost certainly will spend another season in Minnesota. Frankie might make the jump, though. Given the serious failings of the forwards that have been paraded thru the lineup this year, why hasn't Dach been given a serious try out, if he has so much potential? His stats are not really very impressive at Rockford, but maybe he brings more to the game than his stats. If so, what is it that makes him valuable? You'll get more informed answers than mine because I don't follow the kids like some others do but in general,I let the potential power forward develop for longer. That's a big 6'4" 200lb frame the soon to be 21yro's still growing into and this is his first AHL season,I'd let him finish it and probably another too. How many 6'3"-6'5" 20 year olds have you ever seen that weren't a bit 'gangly' or clumsy? Oddly enough we see the smaller/speedier fowards make it at earlier ages nowadays due to their ability to 'skate' the game and we see guys like Hughes,Bedard,Caufield and Debrincat excell early-on because they can out-skate opponents and avoid trouble and injuries because of it. We also see some of the larger framed D-men make it at earlier ages too,as long as they can skate well enough but a lot of the large framed forwards like Thompson or Lafreniere took a few more years. I'll leave it up to the Org if they want to give him a 'look-see' later this year but I'd let him develop and get hungry myself. |
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Post by hsbob on Dec 30, 2023 11:22:14 GMT -6
This team doesn't need to part with ANY prospect at this point and shouldn't,especially important prospects. Their ability to improve substantially comes from their abundance of quality draft picks and the amount of cap-space that has to be spent just to reach the floor. The only prospect I ever recall anyone mentioning in a trade out is possibly one of the many left-shot D-men but I see no hurry for that ether because this team has the luxury of another few years to take their time with their kids. This combined with that 'treasure trove' of draft capitol and cap-space should yield outstanding results if things go well at all. Not sure how to wrangle in BigBarn's thoughts from Hawks Moves page that are relevant here, so I will do it the old fashioned by cutting/pasting: << Yeah out of the 3 I like Phillips the most maybe just because I have watched him a lot. Kaisier would be the best to move but will bring you the least. I have yet to see KD do any heavy lifting so I believe he does nothing. >> I am leery of giving up Philips - he reminds me a bit of Buff who never blossomed into a monster on D until he became a cap casualty and went to the Thrashers/Jets. I believe our strength through the 2024 draft is our prospect pool and its potential additions next Summer. If the next draft class is not overall as highly-ranked as 2023, fine - that capital still in hand helps more approaching the draft, moreso than the trade deadline (unless a bounty of talent can be extracted), IMHO. Hence Vlasic/Korch/Philips are all almost untouchable, Kaiser and Crevier less so (though Kaiser's speed reminds me of Keith; can't teach height). I would not push to trade any D-prospects for a "quick fix" of the Hall/Perry/AA Sh-tstorm of 2023, even if Wright is involved unless the Kraken are proposing and willing to overpay. That said, I would certainly have to hope that there is some heavy lifting prepwork that the team does everyday with guys they have their eye on and then putting out feelers to those other teams. I believe that with every prospect that comes up and shows well (Vlasic early-season; Philips the last month or so), our ability to use those increasing-assets will get us the best deal for the long haul and not just this season or next with another stopgap guy like much of the roster currently is. If a deal works at all - I would have to think that the GM and staff debate these things daily/weekly. As they say "work smarter, not harder" KD - don't try to convince everyone that you are the smartest guy in the room. From his "Kyle from Chicago" demeanor, I don't think he's doing that with other GMs nor with his in-house guys. I do see some redundancy immerging at the young,left-shot D-man position w/size BUT they're getting some ice time to develop and to be assessed with a lot more to come this year and next. I wouldn't push to trade ANY of the prospects at this point and the team doesn't have to unless it's TOTALLY on their terms IMO. Even a less patient fan like me realizes it'll take a few more years to properly develop the MANY kids in the system but I do not see another five years of struggling at the bottom as a necessity for success considering the inordinate amount of quality picks already in the system and the train-loads still on the way. The next two years will see more transitory/place-holders out of necessity alone but I agree,the best deals would be for the "long haul" and any major move should be for younger more age appropriate palyer(s). |
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Post by vadarx on Dec 30, 2023 12:49:48 GMT -6
Given the serious failings of the forwards that have been paraded thru the lineup this year, why hasn't Dach been given a serious try out, if he has so much potential? His stats are not really very impressive at Rockford, but maybe he brings more to the game than his stats. If so, what is it that makes him valuable? You'll get more informed answers than mine because I don't follow the kids like some others do but in general,I let the potential power forward develop for longer. That's a big 6'4" 200lb frame the soon to be 21yro's still growing into and this is his first AHL season,I'd let him finish it and probably another too. How many 6'3"-6'5" 20 year olds have you ever seen that weren't a bit 'gangly' or clumsy? Oddly enough we see the smaller/speedier fowards make it at earlier ages nowadays due to their ability to 'skate' the game and we see guys like Hughes,Bedard,Caufield and Debrincat excell early-on because they can out-skate opponents and avoid trouble and injuries because of it. We also see some of the larger framed D-men make it at earlier ages too,as long as they can skate well enough but a lot of the large framed forwards like Thompson or Lafreniere took a few more years. I'll leave it up to the Org if they want to give him a 'look-see' later this year but I'd let him develop and get hungry myself. this right here. let em marinate, as many as possible, for as long as possible. Dach will get a look this year at some point, but there is absolutely no rush. |
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Post by BigT on Dec 30, 2023 17:46:20 GMT -6
One thing I’ll say about Dach, he looked ready in this years camp. I’m not against him staying down there. But he looked like a man on a mission. He’s also a human. He can’t help but feel what he does. If he’s better than most in camp and really deserves a spot. He should get it. After this year in the Always Hungry League. He’ll be used to the pro game.
I remember ring on an island here with Korchinski. I can’t think of another board member who agreed with me that if he’s good enough. He should be here. There’s nothing he would’ve learnt in Jrs. He’s learning way more here. Korchinski is looking like he’s gonna be a good one. I will stick my neck out and say that Colton is the better Dach by a lot. He will be better because he was sent back to Jrs. He played on the WJC gold medal team. He’s got a year of pro under his shoulder pads too. I think he’ll make it. And the Hawks have time let him start on the 4th line. Then the 3rd, then where ever he ends up.
Even the Ducks have done a great job with Leo. He was playing every 3rd game to start the year, then it was every 2nd game. Now they’ve said he will be playing every game. I think that’s a pretty sweet approach to the kids career!!!
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Post by galaxytrash on Jan 20, 2024 18:46:59 GMT -6
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jan 20, 2024 21:18:21 GMT -6
One thing I’ll say about Dach, he looked ready in this years camp. I’m not against him staying down there. But he looked like a man on a mission. He’s also a human. He can’t help but feel what he does. If he’s better than most in camp and really deserves a spot. He should get it. After this year in the Always Hungry League. He’ll be used to the pro game. I remember ring on an island here with Korchinski. I can’t think of another board member who agreed with me that if he’s good enough. He should be here. There’s nothing he would’ve learnt in Jrs. He’s learning way more here. Korchinski is looking like he’s gonna be a good one. I will stick my neck out and say that Colton is the better Dach by a lot. He will be better because he was sent back to Jrs. He played on the WJC gold medal team. He’s got a year of pro under his shoulder pads too. I think he’ll make it. And the Hawks have time let him start on the 4th line. Then the 3rd, then where ever he ends up. Even the Ducks have done a great job with Leo. He was playing every 3rd game to start the year, then it was every 2nd game. Now they’ve said he will be playing every game. I think that’s a pretty sweet approach to the kids career!!! I was one of the members who said Korchinski should start in Chicago and not go back to Seattle. And I also said Dach was one of the better forwards, but I understand why he started in Rockford, he needs some experience down there. He'll be on the starting roster next season. |
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Post by Nikos on Jan 31, 2024 12:13:35 GMT -6
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jan 31, 2024 16:00:15 GMT -6
I'd much rather have Kakko on the Hawks over the Vancouver Russian, he's younger and bigger with more NHL experience. Or KD tries to get both. But he should definitely be on the phone and get Kakko. |
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Post by hawkfaninpdx on Jan 31, 2024 16:23:17 GMT -6
I'd much rather have Kakko on the Hawks over the Vancouver Russian, he's younger and bigger with more NHL experience. Or KD tries to get both. But he should definitely be on the phone and get Kakko. The article mentions that the Rangers are in the "win now" mode. They probably don't want prospects, and the Hawks don't have much to offer in the way of established contributors. Tyler Johnson is the only player I can think of, assuming that he will be healthy soon. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jan 31, 2024 16:32:35 GMT -6
I'd much rather have Kakko on the Hawks over the Vancouver Russian, he's younger and bigger with more NHL experience. Or KD tries to get both. But he should definitely be on the phone and get Kakko. The article mentions that the Rangers are in the "win now" mode. They probably don't want prospects, and the Hawks don't have much to offer in the way of established contributors. Tyler Johnson is the only player I can think of, assuming that he will be healthy soon. Hopefully Johnsons back soon, there's also Blackwell, and if they want a right handed dman, Murphy. Chicago has some depth players other teams would want, even Zaitsev half retained. Plus NY wants a good pick, KD has a surplus of picks. |
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Post by BigT on Jan 31, 2024 19:51:00 GMT -6
The article mentions that the Rangers are in the "win now" mode. They probably don't want prospects, and the Hawks don't have much to offer in the way of established contributors. Tyler Johnson is the only player I can think of, assuming that he will be healthy soon. Hopefully Johnsons back soon, there's also Blackwell, and if they want a right handed dman, Murphy. Chicago has some depth players other teams would want, even Zaitsev half retained. Plus NY wants a good pick, KD has a surplus of picks. I would think that Kakko still has some value. He did manage like 40 points last year. Has a wicked shot. And has decent size at 6’2” 205. Maybe Tyler Johnson half retained and a 2nd rounder? Or the same with Murphy? I would have to think having him play with Bedard would invigorate his career. It would make it easier to swallow if the Hawks (assuming no 1st overall) took righty dman Anton Silyev if Murphy was moved. He very well could be NHL ready right now. I’m not privy to his contractual obligations in Russia. But the kid seems like the real deal. Could be a Hedman type. Hard to find!!! |
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