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Post by Hockey is great on Jan 31, 2024 20:11:04 GMT -6
Hopefully Johnsons back soon, there's also Blackwell, and if they want a right handed dman, Murphy. Chicago has some depth players other teams would want, even Zaitsev half retained. Plus NY wants a good pick, KD has a surplus of picks. I would think that Kakko still has some value. He did manage like 40 points last year. Has a wicked shot. And has decent size at 6’2” 205. Maybe Tyler Johnson half retained and a 2nd rounder? Or the same with Murphy? I would have to think having him play with Bedard would invigorate his career. It would make it easier to swallow if the Hawks (assuming no 1st overall) took righty dman Anton Silyev if Murphy was moved. He very well could be NHL ready right now. I’m not privy to his contractual obligations in Russia. But the kid seems like the real deal. Could be a Hedman type. Hard to find!!! FYI silyev is a lefty playing on the right side |
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Post by 2old4this on Jan 31, 2024 22:11:01 GMT -6
Given the serious failings of the forwards that have been paraded thru the lineup this year, why hasn't Dach been given a serious try out, if he has so much potential? His stats are not really very impressive at Rockford, but maybe he brings more to the game than his stats. If so, what is it that makes him valuable? Smashmouth hockey? |
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Post by mvr on Feb 24, 2024 11:07:43 GMT -6
After 50-plus years of obsessing about this team, I am having a hard time remaining interested in what is going on given the deliberate and cynical tanking job.
I am reaching an existential crisis here. What really is the point? I watch the game for about an hour, and then lose motivation and find something else to do. At some point, I might not bother to continue. I am having a hard time seeing how the end justifies the means.
Should the Hawks become contenders again at some point, does this future justify what is happening now? How many atrocious finishes are ok to set the team up for one cup run?
Perhaps Davidson is doing me a favour. I am starting not to care which might be a good thing.
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Post by mvr on Feb 24, 2024 11:17:01 GMT -6
We have endured bad teams before.
But this time it is different. Tallon tried to make the team better. Smith got the team into the playoffs.
Davidson is not even attempting to sugarcoat the present reality..... His team remains years away from being competitive.
I find this approach distasteful.
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Post by T-man2010 on Feb 24, 2024 12:02:40 GMT -6
We have endured bad teams before. But this time it is different. Tallon tried to make the team better. Smith got the team into the playoffs. Davidson is not even attempting to sugarcoat the present reality..... His team remains years away from being competitive. I find this approach distasteful. We've never endured bad teams after having a "dynasty" before. We've had bad teams after mediocre to good teams. but never after a great team. |
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Post by mvr on Feb 24, 2024 14:15:34 GMT -6
I understand the need for "patience." Good things come to those who wait.
But I also am not willing to be taken for granted.
Moving forward, my continued interest depends on management making an attempt. Call me "fair weather" or not, my guess is that there are more disgruntled fans than ownership would like to believe, especially given the fact that this painful "rebuild" was largely self-inflicted. Like others, I certainly never supported the insane Davidson scorched-earth "plan."
How long will the remaining fanbase continue to support the "process" before ticket prices collapse and television ratings tank? I am sure the bleeding has already started. This offseason is going to be very important.
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Post by vadarx on Feb 24, 2024 15:18:27 GMT -6
I understand the need for "patience." Good things come to those who wait. But I also am not willing to be taken for granted. Moving forward, my continued interest depends on management making an attempt. Call me "fair weather" or not, my guess is that there are more disgruntled fans than ownership would like to believe, especially given the fact that this painful "rebuild" was largely self-inflicted. Like others, I certainly never supported the insane Davidson scorched-earth "plan." How long will the remaining fanbase continue to support the "process" before ticket prices collapse and television ratings tank? I am sure the bleeding has already started. This offseason is going to be very important. I believe I saw somewhere recently that the 'hawks are 4th in league attendance this year, thus far. until that changes, I wouldn't expect much deviation from The Plan. and rightly so, imo, as I do not share you disdain for the current plan. the team's prospect pool was absolutely terrible under Bowman and is now flourishing (and is only going to get better). that is the new reality in the NHL, you have to build it - buying doesn't work any longer, at least not with any sustainability. I hear ya on it being hard to stay interested at times, though. having 98 back makes it a whole lot easier. once the younger guys start playing on the big team, I believe the interest level will skyrocket. |
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Post by BigT on Feb 24, 2024 15:58:35 GMT -6
After 50-plus years of obsessing about this team, I am having a hard time remaining interested in what is going on given the deliberate and cynical tanking job. I am reaching an existential crisis here. What really is the point? I watch the game for about an hour, and then lose motivation and find something else to do. At some point, I might not bother to continue. I am having a hard time seeing how the end justifies the means. Should the Hawks become contenders again at some point, does this future justify what is happening now? How many atrocious finishes are ok to set the team up for one cup run? Perhaps Davidson is doing me a favour. I am starting not to care which might be a good thing. This is exactly why no owner wants to rebuild. They hold on for fans that won’t support it. It’s very tough. I’m not happy either. I couldn’t make it through a game without Bedard. I have way too many things going on to watch a sub par bottom basement team. I’ve really struggled with it this year. However, I know it’ll get better real soon. If I miss games this year and next. So be it. The entertainment value isn’t there. But it’ll be there. And I’ve already stated that I doubt Luke or KD will be around very far into this!!! |
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Post by mvr on Feb 24, 2024 19:06:31 GMT -6
Here is the thing. If a team produces several bottom of the barrel finishes in the same decade it emerges to compete for cups, the average during that extended time is at best middle of the pack.
How can we take any pride in that approach given that other organizations such as the Bruins maintain a competitive roster always? Is there any honour in deliberately tanking in order to load up on prospects? Even if the team eventually does become a contender again, is this really worthy of respect?
I despised the Red Wings of an earlier era for buying their Championships. But this approach does not pass my smell test either.
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Post by BigT on Feb 24, 2024 19:51:46 GMT -6
Here is the thing. If a team produces several bottom of the barrel finishes in the same decade it emerges to compete for cups, the average during that extended time is at best middle of the pack. How can we take any pride in that approach given that other organizations such as the Bruins maintain a competitive roster always? Is there any honour in deliberately tanking in order to load up on prospects? Even if the team eventually does become a contender again, is this really worthy of respect? I despised the Red Wings of an earlier era for buying their Championships. But this approach does not pass my smell test either. We have to understand that the last regime chased the dream a little too long. What Boston do in 2015 was absolutely heroic. They took 2 down years and loaded back up. While the Hawks kept trading for older players and trading away valuable assets. If the org would have either kept Panera, or got a much better return for him, that would a been great. They could a got a couple first rounders or good young talent instead of Saad. Never should have given Seabs that deal. I was all for signing him. But he should a got 2 of the 3 components of that deal. Cannot give a guy that old and worn out a NTC, Term, Money. Give him 2 of the 3 at most. The Hjalmarsson trade. Sure he didn’t have that much left. But that lead to the downfall of the D. The last GM had a partial strategy with trading Hammer for Murphy. Old for younger. But just missed it by a few miles. The missed draft picks, or misuse of them. Kirby Dach recently mentioned as a rookie they had him out there chasing the leagues best centermen. That’s what fucked him up. He lost his confidence. There are too many to mention with the olde regime. There was no other path but to rebuild. I just don’t think it has to be this bad. If next year is this bad, I doubt many tune in. But, I’m sure Bedard will create the magic that the last dynasty had!!! |
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Post by galaxytrash on Feb 24, 2024 20:07:09 GMT -6
Here is the thing. If a team produces several bottom of the barrel finishes in the same decade it emerges to compete for cups, the average during that extended time is at best middle of the pack. How can we take any pride in that approach given that other organizations such as the Bruins maintain a competitive roster always? Is there any honour in deliberately tanking in order to load up on prospects? Even if the team eventually does become a contender again, is this really worthy of respect? I despised the Red Wings of an earlier era for buying their Championships. But this approach does not pass my smell test either. deliberately tanking? idk. i can't find the numbers but we need to be near the top of the league in man games lost this year do to injury (and stupidity). but why make any major moves? what does it accomplish? i understand that even if things go pretty much perfect for our current and future prospects and if KD make way more great moves than bad...it's still long odds to win a cup. but treading water for 5 or 6 years after winning a cup while hoping for the best smells a bit ripe as well. better odds to do it this way. whether KfC is the guy to take us there remains to be seen. but i'd say so far, so good. jmo. |
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Post by BigT on Feb 24, 2024 21:42:54 GMT -6
Here is the thing. If a team produces several bottom of the barrel finishes in the same decade it emerges to compete for cups, the average during that extended time is at best middle of the pack. How can we take any pride in that approach given that other organizations such as the Bruins maintain a competitive roster always? Is there any honour in deliberately tanking in order to load up on prospects? Even if the team eventually does become a contender again, is this really worthy of respect? I despised the Red Wings of an earlier era for buying their Championships. But this approach does not pass my smell test either. deliberately tanking? idk. i can't find the numbers but we need to be near the top of the league in man games lost this year do to injury (and stupidity). but why make any major moves? what does it accomplish? i understand that even if things go pretty much perfect for our current and future prospects and if KD make way more great moves than bad...it's still long odds to win a cup. but treading water for 5 or 6 years after winning a cup while hoping for the best smells a bit ripe as well. better odds to do it this way. whether KfC is the guy to take us there remains to be seen. but i'd say so far, so good. jmo. I’m not speaking for MVR. But my take on him is that he’d be ok with never winning a Cup, and just have a competitive team. Which is not a bad thing. I’ve made it clear that I wanted a rebuild for some time. This year has been really bad. I agree with MVR that they should have weaponized their cap space and got a decent player or two. Injuries were there, yet he managed to snag Beauvillier and Megna. Not a fan of those moves. I really don’t think they’re any better than what came up from the farm. Anyways, with mismanagement from yesteryear and a mass amount of turnover the last two years. It’s hard to get some traction. The turnover will continue for another year or two. Hopefully Bedard gets the team heading in the right direction. He seems to be able to carry the team on his back at 18. I can only imagine what he’d do at 22 or 23!!! |
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Post by mvr on Feb 25, 2024 6:26:44 GMT -6
Winning cups requires not only good management and talent but also luck (and an owner willing to spend).
The Hawks of the previous decade were extremely fortunate. During every cup run, they avoided the kinds of injuries that can't be overcome. Talented Hawks teams of the 1990s (Chelios, Smith, Roenick, Brown, Belfour) and the mid 1980s (Secord, Sutter, Fraser, Bob Murray etc) could have done much better if key injuries had not devastated the roster at unfortunate times. Those teams also could have benefitted if Bill Wirtz was willing to invest in them.
Boston won one cup during the previous decade plus. They were competitive, however, always, which should be the guiding mandate for every team (but especially those in large markets).
Inevitably, there will be down periods in a team's history. But for teams which spend to the cap, these should be short-lived. The NHL designed thte entry level draft as an equalizer primarily to help small markets become competitive. Teams like Edmonton and Winnipeg depend on the draft to counter the imbalance their economic reality demands.
The Hawks remain one of the wealthiest organizations in the league. Davidson is sitting on tens of millions of dollars in cap space. He has not fully weaponized it. Instead, he has traded away a full roster of NHL players (Debrincat, Kane, Strome, Hagel, Lankinen, DeHaan, Kubilik, etc.....), replacing them with scrubs. The purpose is to tank - in effect, to steal high picks from small market teams which depend on them for survival.
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Post by BigT on Feb 25, 2024 8:07:37 GMT -6
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Feb 25, 2024 10:33:43 GMT -6
Winning cups requires not only good management and talent but also luck (and an owner willing to spend). The Hawks of the previous decade were extremely fortunate. During every cup run, they avoided the kinds of injuries that can't be overcome. Talented Hawks teams of the 1990s (Chelios, Smith, Roenick, Brown, Belfour) and the mid 1980s (Secord, Sutter, Fraser, Bob Murray etc) could have done much better if key injuries had not devastated the roster at unfortunate times. Those teams also could have benefitted if Bill Wirtz was willing to invest in them. Boston won one cup during the previous decade plus. They were competitive, however, always, which should be the guiding mandate for every team (but especially those in large markets). Inevitably, there will be down periods in a team's history. But for teams which spend to the cap, these should be short-lived. The NHL designed thte entry level draft as an equalizer primarily to help small markets become competitive. Teams like Edmonton and Winnipeg depend on the draft to counter the imbalance their economic reality demands. The Hawks remain one of the wealthiest organizations in the league. Davidson is sitting on tens of millions of dollars in cap space. He has not fully weaponized it. Instead, he has traded away a full roster of NHL players (Debrincat, Kane, Strome, Hagel, Lankinen, DeHaan, Kubilik, etc.....), replacing them with scrubs. The purpose is to tank - in effect, to steal high picks from small market teams which depend on them for survival. Last season they deliberately tanked by trading and letting players go to restock the prospect pool and get the best odds at a generational talent, and with good luck they got it. This season wasn't a deliberate tank and as GT pointed out, they have many man games lost, 2nd most to San Jose last I checked. This season was supposed to be the start of an upward trajectory with some vets brought in to help the kids. Except injuries and Perry messed that up. And some players have taken a step back like Raddysh and Reichel. Next season there'll be more growing pains but a much younger and more talented team. And with the #2 ranked prospect pool I don't know how you can't see how things will be better, especially when it was in the 20s when KD took over. |
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Post by hsbob on Feb 25, 2024 11:11:48 GMT -6
Some different thoughts on rebuilding,there are many ways to do it and there are examples of different,successful and unsuccessful ways all over the league.
After a promising start,the Yotes are mired in a terrible losing streak and will be sellers once again.......the 'perpetual' rebuild.
The Devils finished '22-23' with 112pts,a +65 goal diff and won a round,'23-24- finds the team on an 89pt pace with a -9 goal diff five points out of a spot. NJ was bad for a while,drafted their good,young players with six 1st rounders on the roster,two #1 over-all's and one #2.
The Sabres finished last year with 91pts,3rd most goals scored and missed by a point,this year sees em a game under,25th most goals scored and not even sniffin' a spot. Buffalo also has good,young players drafted after several woeful seasons,with six 1st rounders of their own on the roster.
The Sens also looked to be 'on the come' last year only to regress this year. Another team that was bad for years,drafted their own good,young players because of it,also with six 1st rounders in the line-up. These three teams also tanked for years,and that resulted in all three drafting many top qulity young players yet here we are.....what happened?
The Rangers ate a few bad contracts and were bad for what.....two years before constructing a team capable of winning it's division and about to put-up it's 3rd straight 100pt season. Their worst season was five games under back in '17-18' and they were four games under the following year before they turned the corner.
Detroit's turn-around season is yet TBD to be fair,there's a lotta hockey left to play and they look ready to play it after taking apart a Blues team that was playing pretty well,comming-off a 4-0 drubbing of the Isle. Stevie Y added a number of high quality veterans to his high quality young players and it's worked-out pretty well so far. The Wings have five of thier own drafted 1st rounders in the line-up but the added vets have young players Berggren and Edvinsson chopmin' at the bit and playing very well in Grand Rapids while they wait their turns.......like Detroit always did in the past.
Chicago,Anaheim and San Jose are all in the early stages of their rebuilds but there are lessons to be learned from the above examples. Support those high quality,young draft picks with a proper,well balanced roster or waste their early years.
Edmonton and Toronto both drafted some of the game's greatest plyers too and couldn't it be said their early years were wasted? Jack Eichel got tired of wasting his!
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Post by mvr on Feb 27, 2024 11:56:13 GMT -6
As I anticipated, the tanking approach means the club is burning through prospects as confidences get shattered and frustrations build.
Reichel and Kaiser are in the minors now and might never return. Phillips looks more hesitant and inconsistent in the few games he plays and likely also will be sent down soon. The goalie, Soderblum, might never recover from the psychological damage done. Raddysh has five goals after producing 20 last year. Katchouk can't stay in the lineup.
Sure, not all kids will make it. They have to want it and earn their roles. We have seen some positive developments. Bedard and KK are here to stay. Vlasic has exceeded all expectations.
But the numbers are not good for far too many of the prospects, and I am not at all surprised. I blame Davidson entirely. If the team had surrounded the kids with quality, likely the results would have been much better.
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Post by hawkfaninpdx on Feb 27, 2024 13:00:40 GMT -6
As I anticipated, the tanking approach means the club is burning through prospects as confidences get shattered and frustrations build. Reichel and Kaiser are in the minors now and might never return. Phillips looks more hesitant and inconsistent in the few games he plays and likely also will be sent down soon. The goalie, Soderblum, might never recover from the psychological damage done. Raddysh has five goals after producing 20 last year. Katchouk can't stay in the lineup. Sure, not all kids will make it. They have to want it and earn their roles. We have seen some positive developments. Bedard and KK are here to stay. Vlasic has exceeded all expectations. But the numbers are not good for far too many of the prospects, and I am not at all surprised. I blame Davidson entirely. If the team had surrounded the kids with quality, likely the results would have been much better. I don't know if I blame Davidson entirely. Obviously, there was some bad luck involved. We all know about injuries'n such. What we have discovered, though, is that Bedard does not a team make. We need a whole lot more of quality players, and by all indications the cavalry from Rockford is not coming. |
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Post by 2old4this on Feb 27, 2024 13:34:49 GMT -6
Vlasic has exceeded all expectations. Not mine. I had him labeled as a top tier d-man from the first time I saw him skate (early this season). I still want to see him get a bit more physical, and develop a decent slap shot. Then he should be able to quarterback the power play (?) |
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Post by vadarx on Feb 27, 2024 13:49:35 GMT -6
Vlasic has exceeded all expectations. Not mine. I had him labeled as a top tier d-man from the first time I saw him skate (early this season). I still want to see him get a bit more physical, and develop a decent slap shot. Then he should be able to quarterback the power play (?) I dunno that he will ever be tasked with that position. he will always be a defensive d-man, imo. which is good, we need a guy to lead the top pk unit and be out there at the end of games. |
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Post by 2old4this on Feb 27, 2024 14:53:40 GMT -6
Not mine. I had him labeled as a top tier d-man from the first time I saw him skate (early this season). I still want to see him get a bit more physical, and develop a decent slap shot. Then he should be able to quarterback the power play (?) I dunno that he will ever be tasked with that position. he will always be a defensive d-man, imo. which is good, we need a guy to lead the top pk unit and be out there at the end of games. Sorry I wasn't clear. The question mark meant he would be a backup QB if needed. I agree with you on his role in penalty killing. |
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Post by shooter61 on Feb 27, 2024 15:26:39 GMT -6
As I anticipated, the tanking approach means the club is burning through prospects as confidences get shattered and frustrations build. Reichel and Kaiser are in the minors now and might never return. Phillips looks more hesitant and inconsistent in the few games he plays and likely also will be sent down soon. The goalie, Soderblum, might never recover from the psychological damage done. Raddysh has five goals after producing 20 last year. Katchouk can't stay in the lineup. Sure, not all kids will make it. They have to want it and earn their roles. We have seen some positive developments. Bedard and KK are here to stay. Vlasic has exceeded all expectations. But the numbers are not good for far too many of the prospects, and I am not at all surprised. I blame Davidson entirely. If the team had surrounded the kids with quality, likely the results would have been much better. I wouldn't paint it like that at all, Kaiser's play down in Rockford, according to the athletic, for a 3rd rounder like most, it's consistency he's lacking, his brief stint last year, proved he can hang in the NHL, I think that is why they kept him up so long this year, he did have a few good games but mostly he struggled, I don't know how you can say it's confidence ,I think it more of a learning curve , Reichel, I agree is not the same player as last year, is it confidence , or lack of drive, or just not thinking the game, I don't know Phillips, shouldn't been up here in the first place, injury's I believe was the reason he was here, Raddysh had 11 goals the year before, could blame it on all the injury's ,different line mates, We have to remember these are all just kids, learning the Pro game , we just have to give them a chance before we hang people out to dry , |
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