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Post by hsbob on Jun 15, 2022 14:44:07 GMT -6
Bob mentions above several of the failed CHL prospects from the Bowman era - ie McNeil, Knott, Beaudin, perhaps even Dach. Do these failures mean that the CHL is not a place to scout? Or do these failures represent the fact that the Hawks under Kelley/Bowman did not spend enough resources scouting these leagues? Why did other teams avoid these players and choose others from the same leagues instead? I just mentioned the CHL kids taken in the first two rounds since '09' that you conveniently left out and the fact that only three NCAA/USND kids came in the 1st round(and 1 of them played OHL) but I feel like I'm speaking in tongues. Six other CHL players and four Euros also came in the 1st round. Of course you don't stop scouting ANY feeder(especially the best one) because a pick or two from it didn't work out. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 15, 2022 16:51:44 GMT -6
Bob mentions above several of the failed CHL prospects from the Bowman era - ie McNeil, Knott, Beaudin, perhaps even Dach. Do these failures mean that the CHL is not a place to scout? Or do these failures represent the fact that the Hawks under Kelley/Bowman did not spend enough resources scouting these leagues? Why did other teams avoid these players and choose others from the same leagues instead? Or it could be both of them thought they were the smartest guys in the room and gambled on higher risk players... |
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Post by squishy24 on Jun 16, 2022 14:33:50 GMT -6
lol facts, "in my mind" does not equal facts. when someone disagree or prove your post is wrong, they are "Exceptions" Dcat - should stay away from small scoring wingers - contra example Kane, Stlouis, Fleury - your response "those are exceptions" SB didnt draft in CHL as much as you want - shows sample of CHL drafts - your response "they didnt spend enough resources to scout" thats why those CHL picks are failures (are they exceptions too?) - see how the argument changes? how do you even know how much SB's group spend on resources on scouting different leagues? Let alone claiming other teams' scouting/spending choices? - nothing but pure speculation based nothing on facts maybe they didnt draft CHL kids because they truly believe at the spot of their draft pick, a non-CHL pick is better? this is more a failure on bad scouting, than saying they choose not to draft CHL kids or saying they dont spend enough scouting them. Dcat proves they scouted him enough that they traded up. So it does somewhat prove they do scout CHL and pick CHL kids. not enough to change your "facts" ? Squishy: If the sample size was smaller, sure, I would agree with you. The Bowman/Kelley draft pattern was established over a decade plus - there have been more than one hundred picks. Every single idea raised here on these boards is "speculation." None of us (that I know of) is in the room or privy to inside information. We observe, and we comment. They are opinions and not facts. As an outside observer, do you think there was no slant towards US college players? Do you believe the Hawks took the best player available each draft and did not avoid the CHL? The high ratio of US college kids drafted over 12 years does not say anything to you? yea, sorry. i guess i went overboard. honestly, there are alot of yours (and others') opinions i disagree with and you have every right to them. And you probably dont agree with mine and others as well. we all just ignore most of them. Opinions are opinions - were all entitled to each of ours. probably pet-peeve of mine when people claim speculations and opinions as facts. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 16, 2022 16:55:44 GMT -6
No problem, squishy.
You were quite right to call me on it. My word choice for that particular response was terrible. I should be more careful. "Facts" should be indisputable and verifiable. The word should not be used the way I used it. I should know better.
When we all have the same opinion, the conversation gets boring. We need more Stan Bowman defenders here, like we had on the old boards. I almost want to take up the cause just for entertainment.
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 16, 2022 17:22:45 GMT -6
No problem, squishy. You were quite right to call me on it. My word choice for that particular response was terrible. I should be more careful. "Facts" should be indisputable and verifiable. The word should not be used the way I used it. I should know better. When we all have the same opinion, the conversation gets boring. We need more Stan Bowman defenders here, like we had on the old boards. I almost want to take up the cause just for entertainment. Or we can forget about Bowman and move on to never speak his name again, but that won't happen. |
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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 16, 2022 17:50:56 GMT -6
Squishy: If the sample size was smaller, sure, I would agree with you. The Bowman/Kelley draft pattern was established over a decade plus - there have been more than one hundred picks. Every single idea raised here on these boards is "speculation." None of us (that I know of) is in the room or privy to inside information. We observe, and we comment. They are opinions and not facts. As an outside observer, do you think there was no slant towards US college players? Do you believe the Hawks took the best player available each draft and did not avoid the CHL? The high ratio of US college kids drafted over 12 years does not say anything to you? yea, sorry. i guess i went overboard. honestly, there are alot of yours (and others') opinions i disagree with and you have every right to them. And you probably dont agree with mine and others as well. we all just ignore most of them. Opinions are opinions - were all entitled to each of ours. probably pet-peeve of mine when people claim speculations and opinions as facts. my pet-peeve as well. i think that's been a problem with public message boards since the dawn of time. : ) |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 17, 2022 8:23:17 GMT -6
No problem, squishy. You were quite right to call me on it. My word choice for that particular response was terrible. I should be more careful. "Facts" should be indisputable and verifiable. The word should not be used the way I used it. I should know better. When we all have the same opinion, the conversation gets boring. We need more Stan Bowman defenders here, like we had on the old boards. I almost want to take up the cause just for entertainment. I was one mvr! Many won't remember or weren't on the old boards when T or a few others and I had SPIRITED debates with me defending the old GM. I didn't care for the summer of '10',I knew $$$ had to go but it seemed the physical aspect the first to be jettisoned,Buff and Ladd were gonna be due big paydays but some including you did suggest possibilities of how one or both could of been retained. What bothered me more actually was why cheap tougher guys like Eager,Burish and Frasier all went too,cheap vets like Sopel and Madden were still useful too IMO. Guys like Scott and Bollig were brought in but that shit never works.....you need a tough team not one or two tough guys who ain't good enough to play! The team struggled for a few years until guys like Shaw and Bicks could offer some skill and physicality in the PO's.....and away we went. We had our great core and they were all mostly healthy in 11&12 but the team was still an easy out. I gave the last GM big props for adding players like Shaw and Saad through the draft and Oduya was a good trade,Roszival and Handzus were big in '13' and Richards and Vermette were big in '15'......I said that then and I'll say it now. It's what's happened since that has made defending the un-defensible impossible for me. Going with three GT's that probably don't make another roster instead of getting one of the many cheap vets available at the time and breaking up a solid 4th line,sending Bouma,Hayden and useful vet D-man Franson down after CC got hurt in '18' didn't sit well with me and watching someone so undeserving get handed total control after Q got the boot was a HUGE mistake. I've mentioned all the missed draft picks and bad trades when better players were available the last several years but last year's trade for Jones and what's turned out to be a tragic amount of assets given up for a player who'd be an UFA the following summer was a back-breaker for a rebuilding team. The BJ's got a GREAT young D-man with OUR pick last year and they have ours again this year......Boqvist had his struggles but he was rushed into the league and could still straighten out.........he was taken over bigger.better D-men too! I'd still like to hear the conversation between DUMBASS and Potter when they decided to trade a 20yro D-man who was and is the real deal for a fucking BUM.....BRUTAL! |
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Post by steamer on Jun 17, 2022 8:52:22 GMT -6
No problem, squishy. You were quite right to call me on it. My word choice for that particular response was terrible. I should be more careful. "Facts" should be indisputable and verifiable. The word should not be used the way I used it. I should know better. When we all have the same opinion, the conversation gets boring. We need more Stan Bowman defenders here, like we had on the old boards. I almost want to take up the cause just for entertainment. I was one mvr! Many won't remember or weren't on the old boards when T or a few others and I had SPIRITED debates with me defending the old GM. I didn't care for the summer of '10',I knew $$$ had to go but it seemed the physical aspect the first to be jettisoned,Buff and Ladd were gonna be due big paydays but some including you did suggest possibilities of how one or both could of been retained. What bothered me more actually was why cheap tougher guys like Eager,Burish and Frasier all went too,cheap vets like Sopel and Madden were still useful too IMO. Guys like Scott and Bollig were brought in but that shit never works.....you need a tough team not one or two tough guys who ain't good enough to play! The team struggled for a few years until guys like Shaw and Bicks could offer some skill and physicality in the PO's.....and away we went. We had our great core and they were all mostly healthy in 11&12 but the team was still an easy out. I gave the last GM big props for adding players like Shaw and Saad through the draft and Oduya was a good trade,Roszival and Handzus were big in '13' and Richards and Vermette were big in '15'......I said that then and I'll say it now. It's what's happened since that has made defending the un-defensible impossible for me. Going with three GT's that probably don't make another roster instead of getting one of the many cheap vets available at the time and breaking up a solid 4th line,sending Bouma,Hayden and useful vet D-man Franson down after CC got hurt in '18' didn't sit well with me and watching someone so undeserving get handed total control after Q got the boot was a HUGE mistake. I've mentioned all the missed draft picks and bad trades when better players were available the last several years but last year's trade for Jones and what's turned out to be a tragic amount of assets given up for a player who'd be an UFA the following summer was a back-breaker for a rebuilding team. The BJ's got a GREAT young D-man with OUR pick last year and they have ours again this year......Boqvist had his struggles but he was rushed into the league and could still straighten out.........he was taken over bigger.better D-men too! I'd still like to hear the conversation between DUMBASS and Potter when they decided to trade a 20yro D-man who was and is the real deal for a fucking BUM.....BRUTAL! I think this is a fair summary of the former GM's moves. I don't want to minimize what it takes to be an NHL GM - navigating the cap etc. - but if the team is pretty well set, then the holes are quite obvious and you try to go and fill them which he did. But from 2017 on he could not maintain a competitive team and it got worse as time went on . . . RE the draft - do you think KD has had preliminary talks with 19 and 88? If either wants to me moved and has conveyed that, it could impact the draft fairly significantly. |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 17, 2022 9:13:38 GMT -6
I was one mvr! Many won't remember or weren't on the old boards when T or a few others and I had SPIRITED debates with me defending the old GM. I didn't care for the summer of '10',I knew $$$ had to go but it seemed the physical aspect the first to be jettisoned,Buff and Ladd were gonna be due big paydays but some including you did suggest possibilities of how one or both could of been retained. What bothered me more actually was why cheap tougher guys like Eager,Burish and Frasier all went too,cheap vets like Sopel and Madden were still useful too IMO. Guys like Scott and Bollig were brought in but that shit never works.....you need a tough team not one or two tough guys who ain't good enough to play! The team struggled for a few years until guys like Shaw and Bicks could offer some skill and physicality in the PO's.....and away we went. We had our great core and they were all mostly healthy in 11&12 but the team was still an easy out. I gave the last GM big props for adding players like Shaw and Saad through the draft and Oduya was a good trade,Roszival and Handzus were big in '13' and Richards and Vermette were big in '15'......I said that then and I'll say it now. It's what's happened since that has made defending the un-defensible impossible for me. Going with three GT's that probably don't make another roster instead of getting one of the many cheap vets available at the time and breaking up a solid 4th line,sending Bouma,Hayden and useful vet D-man Franson down after CC got hurt in '18' didn't sit well with me and watching someone so undeserving get handed total control after Q got the boot was a HUGE mistake. I've mentioned all the missed draft picks and bad trades when better players were available the last several years but last year's trade for Jones and what's turned out to be a tragic amount of assets given up for a player who'd be an UFA the following summer was a back-breaker for a rebuilding team. The BJ's got a GREAT young D-man with OUR pick last year and they have ours again this year......Boqvist had his struggles but he was rushed into the league and could still straighten out.........he was taken over bigger.better D-men too! I'd still like to hear the conversation between DUMBASS and Potter when they decided to trade a 20yro D-man who was and is the real deal for a fucking BUM.....BRUTAL! I think this is a fair summary of the former GM's moves. I don't want to minimize what it takes to be an NHL GM - navigating the cap etc. - but if the team is pretty well set, then the holes are quite obvious and you try to go and fill them which he did. But from 2017 on he could not maintain a competitive team and it got worse as time went on . . . RE the draft - do you think KD has had preliminary talks with 19 and 88? If either wants to me moved and has conveyed that, it could impact the draft fairly significantly. I really don't know steamer but calling both untouchable has me thinking. Is it just due to the NMC's or have both already shared their intentions on finishing here? I know Kane said so but he also mentioned playing with a player like D-Cat if he stayed,JT seemed open to moving in most of his public comments so I really can't say. Lotta factors at work like making the cap floor after D-Cat's 6.5M and deHAAN-job's 4.4M go. The team basically CAN'T move all of D-Cat,Kane,JT and Strome's 30M plus and make the floor let alone move the Jones deal too. A lot of HUGE decisions for the young GM this summer and I doubt the Org trades all the guys who can fill seats but which one's do you keep and why? |
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Post by BigT on Jun 17, 2022 12:46:00 GMT -6
This is just me speculating. I was listening to Jay Zawaski and his crew today. One thing Jay said that I believe is true is that it seems that KD has no attachment to the old guard here and he doesn’t seem to care for much of what The Garbage Man did. I agree with him. He also thinks that the Hawks more than likely trade all three of them.
Toews and Kane were still hoping the team would out spend their problems. I think it’s clear as light beer that the Hawks are not spending much, and are in a full rebuild. I believe Dcat is the final straw. I believe that’s why you’re hearing all these rumours out there. It’s getting people ready for the inevitable.
Mario on CHGO with Zawaski said something that I’ve been saying. Trading Dcat is not an awful thing. He said this. The potential trade with NJ for Dcat. Even if they give up Holtz and the 2nd pick for Dcat. That’s a win win. Because the Hawks more the. Likely get the 1st pick next year due to the team being poor. So in turn, by trading Dcat. You’re getting Holtz, Slafkovsky and Bedard. That’s a Huge step forward in rebuilding. Add in Dach and Reichel, and the team has 5 pretty awesome forwards to start the rebuild. The later picks they can add in dmen. Hawks will end up having 3-4 extra first rounders over the next few drafts. I’d draft a shit ton of dmen to try and corner that part of the market.
Change is coming. I don’t think 19/88 suffer this out. I do believe that KD is saying that the big 3 contracts are untouchable due NMC. If they want out. He’s gonna make sure they get their wish!!!
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Post by nighbor on Jun 17, 2022 15:06:43 GMT -6
I have no reason to doubt Stan and company picked the best player available on their draft list. Others may not agree with the list but it was theirs.
The CHL may be the best feeder league for the NHL but it doesn't have a monopoly on the best players. In '06 the best player was from college. Should Tallon have passed on Toews because he didn't play in the CHL. At some point the elite players from the major junior leagues have been exhausted and it is best to shift focus to the other sources of elite talent or do you continue and draft inferior talent because the played in the CHL.
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Post by squishy24 on Jun 17, 2022 15:54:06 GMT -6
No problem, squishy. You were quite right to call me on it. My word choice for that particular response was terrible. I should be more careful. "Facts" should be indisputable and verifiable. The word should not be used the way I used it. I should know better. When we all have the same opinion, the conversation gets boring. We need more Stan Bowman defenders here, like we had on the old boards. I almost want to take up the cause just for entertainment. I was one mvr! Many won't remember or weren't on the old boards when T or a few others and I had SPIRITED debates with me defending the old GM. I didn't care for the summer of '10',I knew $$$ had to go but it seemed the physical aspect the first to be jettisoned,Buff and Ladd were gonna be due big paydays but some including you did suggest possibilities of how one or both could of been retained. What bothered me more actually was why cheap tougher guys like Eager,Burish and Frasier all went too,cheap vets like Sopel and Madden were still useful too IMO. Guys like Scott and Bollig were brought in but that shit never works.....you need a tough team not one or two tough guys who ain't good enough to play! The team struggled for a few years until guys like Shaw and Bicks could offer some skill and physicality in the PO's.....and away we went. We had our great core and they were all mostly healthy in 11&12 but the team was still an easy out. I gave the last GM big props for adding players like Shaw and Saad through the draft and Oduya was a good trade,Roszival and Handzus were big in '13' and Richards and Vermette were big in '15'......I said that then and I'll say it now. It's what's happened since that has made defending the un-defensible impossible for me. Going with three GT's that probably don't make another roster instead of getting one of the many cheap vets available at the time and breaking up a solid 4th line,sending Bouma,Hayden and useful vet D-man Franson down after CC got hurt in '18' didn't sit well with me and watching someone so undeserving get handed total control after Q got the boot was a HUGE mistake. I've mentioned all the missed draft picks and bad trades when better players were available the last several years but last year's trade for Jones and what's turned out to be a tragic amount of assets given up for a player who'd be an UFA the following summer was a back-breaker for a rebuilding team. The BJ's got a GREAT young D-man with OUR pick last year and they have ours again this year......Boqvist had his struggles but he was rushed into the league and could still straighten out.........he was taken over bigger.better D-men too! I'd still like to hear the conversation between DUMBASS and Potter when they decided to trade a 20yro D-man who was and is the real deal for a fucking BUM.....BRUTAL! i was also a Stan-defender, pre-2017. I also from time to time defend some of his moves after 2017 or at least offer a different perspective other than the usual conclusion of "stan doesnt know what hes doing, he sucks" i'd like an spirited debate, but it normally turns out into different arguments. we start with one thing and all of a sudden we're all over the whole decade of GM-ing. it never stays on topic. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 17, 2022 16:00:48 GMT -6
Who cares about “Stan the Garbage man”? The Hawks will have a massive amount of talk around them and also moves. There will be a lot to digest very soon.
We do have the other thread of former GMs to talk about. Let’s talk draft and possible draft positions or players to be taken!!!
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Post by hsbob on Jun 18, 2022 7:43:29 GMT -6
I was one mvr! Many won't remember or weren't on the old boards when T or a few others and I had SPIRITED debates with me defending the old GM. I didn't care for the summer of '10',I knew $$$ had to go but it seemed the physical aspect the first to be jettisoned,Buff and Ladd were gonna be due big paydays but some including you did suggest possibilities of how one or both could of been retained. What bothered me more actually was why cheap tougher guys like Eager,Burish and Frasier all went too,cheap vets like Sopel and Madden were still useful too IMO. Guys like Scott and Bollig were brought in but that shit never works.....you need a tough team not one or two tough guys who ain't good enough to play! The team struggled for a few years until guys like Shaw and Bicks could offer some skill and physicality in the PO's.....and away we went. We had our great core and they were all mostly healthy in 11&12 but the team was still an easy out. I gave the last GM big props for adding players like Shaw and Saad through the draft and Oduya was a good trade,Roszival and Handzus were big in '13' and Richards and Vermette were big in '15'......I said that then and I'll say it now. It's what's happened since that has made defending the un-defensible impossible for me. Going with three GT's that probably don't make another roster instead of getting one of the many cheap vets available at the time and breaking up a solid 4th line,sending Bouma,Hayden and useful vet D-man Franson down after CC got hurt in '18' didn't sit well with me and watching someone so undeserving get handed total control after Q got the boot was a HUGE mistake. I've mentioned all the missed draft picks and bad trades when better players were available the last several years but last year's trade for Jones and what's turned out to be a tragic amount of assets given up for a player who'd be an UFA the following summer was a back-breaker for a rebuilding team. The BJ's got a GREAT young D-man with OUR pick last year and they have ours again this year......Boqvist had his struggles but he was rushed into the league and could still straighten out.........he was taken over bigger.better D-men too! I'd still like to hear the conversation between DUMBASS and Potter when they decided to trade a 20yro D-man who was and is the real deal for a fucking BUM.....BRUTAL! i was also a Stan-defender, pre-2017. I also from time to time defend some of his moves after 2017 or at least offer a different perspective other than the usual conclusion of "stan doesnt know what hes doing, he sucks" i'd like an spirited debate, but it normally turns out into different arguments. we start with one thing and all of a sudden we're all over the whole decade of GM-ing. it never stays on topic. I thought I offered more than just "stan doesn't know what he's doing, he sucks" ,I'll discuss any move from the last four years that I strongly disagree with and I can also go back to when I thought he did okay. Other than a more appropriate thread,what's wrong with revisiting the whole decade when assessing the last guy,I brought up the first half to point out some of the things I thought were done correctly also. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 18, 2022 8:33:48 GMT -6
Yes I'm an Canadian but I don't care where they draft from, if they trade Debrincat to NJ I mentioned getting Slafkovsky, a Slovak playing in the Liiga.
You take the best player available, if it's close you go with a D or center, yes Slafkovsky is a winger but it's not often you see a kid this big with hands and plays a powerforward style.
If the Hawks don't get a first round pick there's still some really good players in the second round, especially with their early second.
We're less than a month away so we'll soon see the direction KD and company are going.
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 8:55:46 GMT -6
It’s no secret I’ve been a huge supporter of the draft and developing players. However, it’s obvious next year is the better draft. If the Hawks can get a #2 overall. Cool. Take it. But I believe it’s slim pickins after that. There’s a couple Dmen worth noting but not sure their the “ones”.
With that said. If I’m KD. And 19/88 want out. Or they’ve agreed to leave. I want next years picks for them. I’m not saying next years draft is gonna be like 2015. But go look at how many good NHLers made it out of that draft.
Hawks need 3-4 1st rounders in a draft like that (2023). Not sure if that’s gonna happen. But I’d wait to deal 19/88. If they had 3 picks in the 20-32 range. I package 2 of them and try and move up. Then I try and trade the last late pick and take on a bad contract to move up. Having 3 picks in the top 16 would be great. As of now. The Hawks have their own pick, Tampa’s pick. My hope is to get a first rounder for each of 19/88 for next years draft!!!
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 9:02:14 GMT -6
www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2015e.htmlThe first round is amazing. Even in the 5th round Kaprizov was drafted. This may be the best draft ever. But 2023 is lining up to be a doozy too. So my advice to KD is this…….. “If you’re not patient, you’ll become one”!!!
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 9:13:39 GMT -6
Also, look at Boston. They had picks 13, 14, 15. The best they got was Jake Debrusk. The next 3 picks were Barzal, Kyle Connor and Chabot. If they would have too all three of them. Their team is set for another decade. Their drafting has also been piss poor. Yes they got lucky with Pastrnak in 2016. But they’ve missed on far too many.
This is why I employ to not just look for a position. In 2015 the Coyotes took Strome over Marner. Looking back they are killing themselves. I’m all for taking centers and D. But they’ve gotta be good. A few years back Kotkaniemi was ranked 12th. The Habs took him at 3 because he was the top center next to go. It was a waste of a pick. I see similarities with the Dach pick. Byram was the consensus #3. Dach was barely mentioned in the top 5. Gotta take the best player available. Not just a Center or dman. Now, if there’s both available take what you need more!!!
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 18, 2022 9:51:07 GMT -6
Also, look at Boston. They had picks 13, 14, 15. The best they got was Jake Debrusk. The next 3 picks were Barzal, Kyle Connor and Chabot. If they would have too all three of them. Their team is set for another decade. Their drafting has also been piss poor. Yes they got lucky with Pastrnak in 2016. But they’ve missed on far too many. This is why I employ to not just look for a position. In 2015 the Coyotes took Strome over Marner. Looking back they are killing themselves. I’m all for taking centers and D. But they’ve gotta be good. A few years back Kotkaniemi was ranked 12th. The Habs took him at 3 because he was the top center next to go. It was a waste of a pick. I see similarities with the Dach pick. Byram was the consensus #3. Dach was barely mentioned in the top 5. Gotta take the best player available. Not just a Center or dman. Now, if there’s both available take what you need more!!! Seems like you're indirectly quoting my last post, I said take the best player available but if it's close with all positions you take a D or center. If the Hawks get the #2 Slafkovsky is clearly the next best player available, LWer. I'm not gonna waste my time talking about previous drafts and who the Hawks should've taken because this is the 2022 draft thread, no point in looking back. Just like the Hagel trade I'd get a pick for next years draft but I'd still look to get more this year. |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 18, 2022 9:58:59 GMT -6
Let me get this straight you guys,centers and D-men aren't more importent than 24yro 35.6 goals a year wingers? Or just this one? 18yro wingers are because they're bigger?
Wake me TF up next time we draft a 40 goal a year guy and I'll climb back on board too!
And for the record,I'm good with trading the kid because there's nothing he can do here except help the team win more games than they need to.
Does Kane stay when D-Cat's moved? Probably not but most seem done with him too. Does JT stay?.....ditto. Does the team keep Strome w/o any of the other three and why would they?
Let's say MAF's 7M and deHAAH-job's 4.4M is obviously gone and D-Cat's 6.5M is gone and Strome's 3M is gone and we retain around 10M moving K&T.....now get me to the cap-floor. Put some asses in the building while your at it.
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 10:34:53 GMT -6
Let me get this straight you guys,centers and D-men aren't more importent than 24yro 35.6 goals a year wingers? Or just this one? 18yro wingers are because they're bigger? Wake me TF up next time we draft a 40 goal a year guy and I'll climb back on board too! And for the record,I'm good with trading the kid because there's nothing he can do here except help the team win more games than they need to. Does Kane stay when D-Cat's moved? Probably not but most seem done with him too. Does JT stay?.....ditto. Does the team keep Strome w/o any of the other three and why would they? Let's say MAF's 7M and deHAAH-job's 4.4M is obviously gone and D-Cat's 6.5M is gone and Strome's 3M is gone and we retain around 10M moving K&T.....now get me to the cap-floor. Put some asses in the building while your at it. I’ve stated many times. Many times. The trading of any of the core guys is to get more assets. Asset management is key. We need 3 assets for one. Also. We all know that if we keep them all. The major problem is that the team won’t be able to get better until their done. So I ask this to you Bob. Why do you seem to accept it yet seem to be pissed about it at the same time? I don’t believe you fully accept it. And you seem to think that trading Dcat is some sort of slap in his face? Again. Asset management is key. I fully understand people wanna be able entertained. Let’s say the Hawks re-sign Dcat. But after next year the duo of 19/88 leave. Dcats production drops to 18 goals 23 assists. How do you trade a 10 million dollar guy like that now? If Dcat got those types of numbers on the 3rd line, he’s gonna be playing with 3/4 liners in a couple years anyways. Right players, wrong time. It sucks but here we are. As far as the cap floor goes. The Hawks can easily overpay for UFAs on one or two year deals. Plus I’d bet the farm he’s already looking into taking back bad contracts. Hawks can afford 2-3 years of them. I feel it’s all doable. There’s gonna be a team that wants to unload a huge contract. And the Hawks will clean up. I could see the Leaves being players. They have a few contracts to get rid of. Mrazek comes to mind. I could actually see Toews going there too. The options are limitless. The Hawks have a unique situation. While many see doom and gloom. I see nothing but opportunities!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 18, 2022 11:21:45 GMT -6
Let me get this straight you guys,centers and D-men aren't more importent than 24yro 35.6 goals a year wingers? Or just this one? 18yro wingers are because they're bigger? Wake me TF up next time we draft a 40 goal a year guy and I'll climb back on board too! And for the record,I'm good with trading the kid because there's nothing he can do here except help the team win more games than they need to. Does Kane stay when D-Cat's moved? Probably not but most seem done with him too. Does JT stay?.....ditto. Does the team keep Strome w/o any of the other three and why would they? Let's say MAF's 7M and deHAAH-job's 4.4M is obviously gone and D-Cat's 6.5M is gone and Strome's 3M is gone and we retain around 10M moving K&T.....now get me to the cap-floor. Put some asses in the building while your at it. I’ve stated many times. Many times. The trading of any of the core guys is to get more assets. Asset management is key. We need 3 assets for one. Also. We all know that if we keep them all. The major problem is that the team won’t be able to get better until their done. So I ask this to you Bob. Why do you seem to accept it yet seem to be pissed about it at the same time? I don’t believe you fully accept it. And you seem to think that trading Dcat is some sort of slap in his face? Again. Asset management is key. I fully understand people wanna be able entertained. Let’s say the Hawks re-sign Dcat. But after next year the duo of 19/88 leave. Dcats production drops to 18 goals 23 assists. How do you trade a 10 million dollar guy like that now? If Dcat got those types of numbers on the 3rd line, he’s gonna be playing with 3/4 liners in a couple years anyways. Right players, wrong time. It sucks but here we are. As far as the cap floor goes. The Hawks can easily overpay for UFAs on one or two year deals. Plus I’d bet the farm he’s already looking into taking back bad contracts. Hawks can afford 2-3 years of them. I feel it’s all doable. There’s gonna be a team that wants to unload a huge contract. And the Hawks will clean up. I could see the Leaves being players. They have a few contracts to get rid of. Mrazek comes to mind. I could actually see Toews going there too. The options are limitless. The Hawks have a unique situation. While many see doom and gloom. I see nothing but opportunities!!! What I accepted was trading a 24yro proven 40 goal scorer for that supposed more important center or D-prospect but now it's trade that 24yro 40 goal scorer for another wing prospect too? I said at the time of Alex DeBrincat's mind-numbingly stupid mis-use back in 19-20 that it'd be used against him in the future and here we are.....it was also a 70 game season. He's never seen another one like it and never will again! He does deserve better than playing with a talentless,open sewer of a team though ,so absolutely trade him and Kane and JT and Strome. I thought we were gonna draft a bunch of studs for 24 yro D-Cat to play with......no? I do accept the need to move the great players but that doesn't mean I like it or it and it doesn't mean there's any guarantee anything good comes of it.......I'll find entertainment elsewhere. How does the team reach the floor going forward when all the great payers are gone though? |
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 11:51:22 GMT -6
I’ve stated many times. Many times. The trading of any of the core guys is to get more assets. Asset management is key. We need 3 assets for one. Also. We all know that if we keep them all. The major problem is that the team won’t be able to get better until their done. So I ask this to you Bob. Why do you seem to accept it yet seem to be pissed about it at the same time? I don’t believe you fully accept it. And you seem to think that trading Dcat is some sort of slap in his face? Again. Asset management is key. I fully understand people wanna be able entertained. Let’s say the Hawks re-sign Dcat. But after next year the duo of 19/88 leave. Dcats production drops to 18 goals 23 assists. How do you trade a 10 million dollar guy like that now? If Dcat got those types of numbers on the 3rd line, he’s gonna be playing with 3/4 liners in a couple years anyways. Right players, wrong time. It sucks but here we are. As far as the cap floor goes. The Hawks can easily overpay for UFAs on one or two year deals. Plus I’d bet the farm he’s already looking into taking back bad contracts. Hawks can afford 2-3 years of them. I feel it’s all doable. There’s gonna be a team that wants to unload a huge contract. And the Hawks will clean up. I could see the Leaves being players. They have a few contracts to get rid of. Mrazek comes to mind. I could actually see Toews going there too. The options are limitless. The Hawks have a unique situation. While many see doom and gloom. I see nothing but opportunities!!! What I accepted was trading a 24yro proven 40 goal scorer for that supposed more important center or D-prospect but now it's trade that 24yro 40 goal scorer for another wing prospect too? I said at the time of Alex DeBrincat's mind-numbingly stupid mis-use back in 19-20 that it'd be used against him in the future and here we are.....it was also a 70 game season. He's never seen another one like it and never will again! He does deserve better than playing with a talentless,open sewer of a team though ,so absolutely trade him and Kane and JT and Strome. I thought we were gonna draft a bunch of studs for 4 yro D-Cat to play with......no? I do accept the need to move the great players but that doesn't mean I like it or it and it doesn't mean there's any guarantee anything good comes of it.......I'll find entertainment elsewhere. How does the team reach the floor going forward when all the great payers are gone though? I’ve said a lot of repeated jargon over the last while. I’ll say this again. If the Hawks trade Dcat to NJ for Holtz and #2. Yes both are wingers. Both with good to great size. Now. By trading Dcat. The team is almost assured a top two pick. Bedard, Fantilli, and Mishkov are all slated to be franchise players. Only Mishkov is a winger. But compared to Ovechkin. So look at it this way. Hawks will get Holtz, Slafkovsky and Bedard for Dcat. That’s a top line for Dcat. Who doesn’t do that? If you or anyone else cares, here’s a list of next years draft class and mock draft!!! www.lines.com/nhl/drafts/2023 |
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 11:59:57 GMT -6
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Post by mvr on Jun 18, 2022 12:45:00 GMT -6
Debrincat's position (scoring winger) is part of the equation here. This is the type of player you invest in towards the end of a rebuild, not at the very beginning.
By far the bigger issue is the contract. The player makes $9 M this year. Next year - assuming he re-signs - is his last before UFA. There is no guarantee he wants to return. If he does, he is certainly deserving of a long term deal with a NMC.
Rebuilding teams need to maintain roster and cap flexibility.
This is the primary reason I believe why he is being shopped.
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 13:59:18 GMT -6
Debrincat's position (scoring winger) is part of the equation here. This is the type of player you invest in towards the end of a rebuild, not at the very beginning. By far the bigger issue is the contract. The player makes $9 M this year. Next year - assuming he re-signs - is his last before UFA. There is no guarantee he wants to return. If he does, he is certainly deserving of a long term deal with a NMC. Rebuilding teams need to maintain roster and cap flexibility. This is the primary reason I believe why he is being shopped. Absolutely. If you can get 2/3 of your top line for him, plus make yourself the front runner for the top pick. It’s an easy decision!!! |
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Post by mvr on Jun 18, 2022 14:03:39 GMT -6
What I accepted was trading a 24yro proven 40 goal scorer for that supposed more important center or D-prospect but now it's trade that 24yro 40 goal scorer for another wing prospect too? I said at the time of Alex DeBrincat's mind-numbingly stupid mis-use back in 19-20 that it'd be used against him in the future and here we are.....it was also a 70 game season. He's never seen another one like it and never will again! He does deserve better than playing with a talentless,open sewer of a team though ,so absolutely trade him and Kane and JT and Strome. I thought we were gonna draft a bunch of studs for 4 yro D-Cat to play with......no? I do accept the need to move the great players but that doesn't mean I like it or it and it doesn't mean there's any guarantee anything good comes of it.......I'll find entertainment elsewhere. How does the team reach the floor going forward when all the great payers are gone though? I’ve said a lot of repeated jargon over the last while. I’ll say this again. If the Hawks trade Dcat to NJ for Holtz and #2. Yes both are wingers. Both with good to great size. Now. By trading Dcat. The team is almost assured a top two pick. Bedard, Fantilli, and Mishkov are all slated to be franchise players. Only Mishkov is a winger. But compared to Ovechkin. So look at it this way. Hawks will get Holtz, Slafkovsky and Bedard for Dcat. That’s a top line for Dcat. Who doesn’t do that? If you or anyone else cares, here’s a list of next years draft class and mock draft!!! www.lines.com/nhl/drafts/2023The two young players on your trade target list here are each about five-six years younger. Neither will get a $9 M/year salary for at least six years or more. Hopefully by then, the team is better positioned. But if not, they would be trade bait (until the team has the depth at the key positions to compete). The cap savings from moving out Debrincat allows the Hawks some flexibility to add more depth to the present roster (which again can be flipped for futures). |
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Post by squishy24 on Jun 18, 2022 14:08:00 GMT -6
i was also a Stan-defender, pre-2017. I also from time to time defend some of his moves after 2017 or at least offer a different perspective other than the usual conclusion of "stan doesnt know what hes doing, he sucks" i'd like an spirited debate, but it normally turns out into different arguments. we start with one thing and all of a sudden we're all over the whole decade of GM-ing. it never stays on topic. I thought I offered more than just "stan doesn't know what he's doing, he sucks" ,I'll discuss any move from the last four years that I strongly disagree with and I can also go back to when I thought he did okay. Other than a more appropriate thread,what's wrong with revisiting the whole decade when assessing the last guy,I brought up the first half to point out some of the things I thought were done correctly also. I wasnt specifically referring to your post per say, i meant in a more general terms. Debates/arguments tend to get out of hand and out of topic. |
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Post by mvr on Jun 18, 2022 14:08:35 GMT -6
If Seth Jones now wants out, I would be also shopping him hard for the same reason.
If there is a deal out there with some quality futures involved, it should be made. It might be worthwhile to eat some of the contract or take a bad one back to get a deal done.
The most important consideration right now has to be long term roster flexibility.
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Post by vadarx on Jun 18, 2022 14:33:22 GMT -6
I thought I offered more than just "stan doesn't know what he's doing, he sucks" ,I'll discuss any move from the last four years that I strongly disagree with and I can also go back to when I thought he did okay. Other than a more appropriate thread,what's wrong with revisiting the whole decade when assessing the last guy,I brought up the first half to point out some of the things I thought were done correctly also. I wasnt specifically referring to your post per say, i meant in a more general terms. Debates/arguments tend to get out of hand and out of topic. indeed. as is the norm on message boards. this board is EASILY the most cordial and tolerant of discussion of both sides that I have seen. |
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