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Post by mvr on Oct 27, 2021 7:18:38 GMT -6
There is plenty of righteous indignation being written in the press right now - and for the most part, rightfully so.
But the world is full of layers of grey.
My guess is that management and the coaching staff at the time fully believed the video coach's interpretation of what happened that day. They did not have the luxury of knowing about his subsequent indiscretions. They also likely knew him personally much better than the player.
We do not know for certain which player made the accusations. Defence lawyers (often unfairly) put a rape victim's history on the stand to provide context. Without naming names, there were at least two young players on the Black Aces with problematic pasts involving conflicts with teammates etc. It could be that the management chose to believe what they wanted.
Certainly, John McD. should be condemned for not taking action. So should Stan Bowman, who showed his true colours yesterday in his attempt to deflect all responsibility by pointing fingers at his boss and his coach.
But I am not convinced the others - Quenneville, Chevy, the players on the ice. etc. - should own this. They were all very busy at the time. They likely assumed that management had investigated the allegation and determined it wasn't worth addressing.
It is tragic that this story happened. But let's not create more victims here than necessary.
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Post by hsbob on Oct 27, 2021 7:52:52 GMT -6
I predicted the victim would be settled with,I predicted McD would get the blame,I predicted the investigation would drag out at least until after the Olympics and I predicted this would then blow over. Looks like the first two will happen but I missed by a MILE on the last two.
I purposely took a break from this issue last night,not even sure I checked a score on NHLN and I appreciate every single opinion of every post I've read this morning.
Thought I knew what there was to know or more like what I cared to know until I read the last page or two here.
I admit to being struck by the effort to make sure we were told the Wirtz's didn't know,it does sound like McD kept it from Rocky and Daniel was probably busy with the new warehouse complex being built in Cicero and had nothing to do with the team then. I'm sure Rocky knew nothing of (IT) when it happened but it's hard to believe he knew nothing of it till the suit was filed in May but it's possible I guess.
I put (IT) in brackets because of something SB said in his statement,he said
"eleven years ago,while serving in my first year as general manager,I was made aware of potential inappropriate behavior by a then video coach involving a player. I promptly reported the matter to the then president and CEO who committed to handling the matter. I learned THIS year that the inappropriate behavior involved a serious allegation of sexual assault."
If this is accurate,did nobody actually know that the allegations were as serious as they turned out to be at the time or is SB lying?
The 'first year GM' was mentioned by 'Prince Daniel' too like that's an excuse for a guy who had already been the asst GM for years.
Several players still contend they knew nothing including Kane,if the team's GM didn't know how serious the allegations were until THIS year,is there a chance the HC or players didn't know either?
I do wonder how us here and the other diehards left would have answered this question back in'10' on the eve of the SCF.....
There are rumors of an abuse scandal involving the team.....would you prefer they aw dealt with AFTER the series? Answer honestly.
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Post by BigT on Oct 27, 2021 7:53:56 GMT -6
Well said MVR. Couldn’t have said it better myself!!!
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Post by BigT on Oct 27, 2021 8:01:09 GMT -6
I predicted the victim would be settled with,I predicted McD would get the blame,I predicted the investigation would drag out at least until after the Olympics and I predicted this would then blow over. Looks like the first two will happen but I missed by a MILE on the last two. I purposely took a break from this issue last night,not even sure I checked a score on NHLN and I appreciate every single opinion of every post I've read this morning. Thought I knew what there was to know or more like what I cared to know until I read the last page or two here. I admit to being struck by the effort to make sure we were told the Wirtz's didn't know,it does sound like McD kept it from Rocky and Daniel was probably busy with the new warehouse complex being built in Cicero and had nothing to do with the team then. I'm sure Rocky knew nothing of (IT) when it happened but it's hard to believe he knew nothing of it till the suit was filed in May but it's possible I guess. I put (IT) in brackets because of something SB said in his statement,he said "eleven years ago,while serving in my first year as general manager,I was made aware of potential inappropriate behavior by a then video coach involving a player. I promptly reported the matter to the then president and CEO who committed to handling the matter. I learned THIS year that the inappropriate behavior involved a serious allegation of sexual assault." If this is accurate,did nobody actually know that the allegations were as serious as they turned out to be at the time or is SB lying? The 'first year GM' was mentioned by 'Prince Daniel' too like that's an excuse for a guy who had already been the asst GM for years. Several players still contend they knew nothing including Kane,if the team's GM didn't know how serious the allegations were until THIS year,is there a chance the HC or players didn't know either? I do wonder how us here and the other diehards left would have answered this question back in'10' on the eve of the SCF..... There are rumors of an abuse scandal involving the team.....would you prefer they aw dealt with AFTER the series? Answer honestly. I will gladly admit that I would rather it be dealt with by upper management away from the team and after if possible. At the time it was just an allegation. So it was up to the management to do something. The players and coaches have jobs to do. That type of distraction can ruin a Cup run. I don’t blame the guys on the bench or ice for not being involved or absolving themselves from it. They couldn’t do a damn thing anyways. Management had to. And it seems Scambo will not own any of this. And I wonder if his old man seems retribution for what happened to his boy. I could see Q getting booted from hockey because Scam did something wrong!!! |
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Post by jimakablkhwks918 on Oct 27, 2021 8:13:40 GMT -6
Grown ass men in positions of power were told of a possible sexual assault by a member of their organization. They consciously elected to ignore it in pursuit of their own glory. They partied with the rapist, and let his name be put on the Cup. Then forgot about it as the organization they were in charge of bungled it. There is a direct line between the inaction of those grown ass men in power because of their pursuit of personal glory to a kid in Michigan getting raped by the same guy. They can all own it.
Disappointed in the attempts to absolve people here. I have the perspective of living with a victim of sexual assault and watching the long term devastation it causes; perhaps this is coloring my judgement.
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Post by LordKOTL on Oct 27, 2021 8:41:59 GMT -6
At least until November 9th. I see what you did there! And yes. Hoss for coach!
Yes. As things stand now even thought I get the feeling Hoss would perfer to stay in Zvolen...I'm pretty sure he lives near there. However, IF he was one of those that were taunting? He should go down in infamy. He is one of my favorite 'hawks of all time but I'll call a spade a spade here. Honestly, I think we should let John Doe continue to be John Doe True, I was just curious but it doesn't matter who it was. The poor guy had his career ruined. I'm just glad it's out there now and the people who covered it up are gone, hopefully John Doe is well taken care of. I think everyone is curious, but at the same time if John Doe doesn't want to be outed (even though the report all but doxxed him), I think he shouldn't be outed. There is plenty of righteous indignation being written in the press right now - and for the most part, rightfully so. But the world is full of layers of grey. My guess is that management and the coaching staff at the time fully believed the video coach's interpretation of what happened that day. They did not have the luxury of knowing about his subsequent indiscretions. They also likely knew him personally much better than the player. We do not know for certain which player made the accusations. Defence lawyers (often unfairly) put a rape victim's history on the stand to provide context. Without naming names, there were at least two young players on the Black Aces with problematic pasts involving conflicts with teammates etc. It could be that the management chose to believe what they wanted. Certainly, John McD. should be condemned for not taking action. So should Stan Bowman, who showed his true colours yesterday in his attempt to deflect all responsibility by pointing fingers at his boss and his coach. But I am not convinced the others - Quenneville, Chevy, the players on the ice. etc. - should own this. They were all very busy at the time. They likely assumed that management had investigated the allegation and determined it wasn't worth addressing. It is tragic that this story happened. But let's not create more victims here than necessary. The 'hawks that were present in the meeting--which includes Q and Chevy, failed to follow the 'hawks own policy on sexual harassment: Q, according to the report, was one of the people pushing for postponing the investigation (along with McD) until after the 'hawks finished their cup run. This violates the "promptly" part of the policy. This was referenced in the summation: Now, McD, Stan, etc. Should share the lion's share of the blame and the fallout since the buck stopped with them, but per the report Q has some culpability since he pushed to postpone the investigation. He put a player's safety secondary to winning the cup. He should not be given a free pass for that. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Oct 27, 2021 8:54:39 GMT -6
I predicted the victim would be settled with,I predicted McD would get the blame,I predicted the investigation would drag out at least until after the Olympics and I predicted this would then blow over. Looks like the first two will happen but I missed by a MILE on the last two. I purposely took a break from this issue last night,not even sure I checked a score on NHLN and I appreciate every single opinion of every post I've read this morning. Thought I knew what there was to know or more like what I cared to know until I read the last page or two here. I admit to being struck by the effort to make sure we were told the Wirtz's didn't know,it does sound like McD kept it from Rocky and Daniel was probably busy with the new warehouse complex being built in Cicero and had nothing to do with the team then. I'm sure Rocky knew nothing of (IT) when it happened but it's hard to believe he knew nothing of it till the suit was filed in May but it's possible I guess. I put (IT) in brackets because of something SB said in his statement,he said "eleven years ago,while serving in my first year as general manager,I was made aware of potential inappropriate behavior by a then video coach involving a player. I promptly reported the matter to the then president and CEO who committed to handling the matter. I learned THIS year that the inappropriate behavior involved a serious allegation of sexual assault." If this is accurate,did nobody actually know that the allegations were as serious as they turned out to be at the time or is SB lying? The 'first year GM' was mentioned by 'Prince Daniel' too like that's an excuse for a guy who had already been the asst GM for years. Several players still contend they knew nothing including Kane,if the team's GM didn't know how serious the allegations were until THIS year,is there a chance the HC or players didn't know either? I do wonder how us here and the other diehards left would have answered this question back in'10' on the eve of the SCF..... There are rumors of an abuse scandal involving the team.....would you prefer they aw dealt with AFTER the series? Answer honestly. I wish they would have addressed it promptly. In any scenario like this, the longer you wait, the more chances the assailant has to continue the pattern of assault. Of course, alleged is implied. I think this is why the 'hawks policy said, "Promptly". They didn't. In my opinion: Stan, McD, and the hockey operations brass had the ability, once the outcry happened, to get Aldrich out. Call it "administration leave" if you will. By not doing so they created a hostile work environment and gave Aldrich opportunity. Q might have been able to do that as well--but I can't say for certain on that and even though in my opinion Q should not be given a free pass for wanting to postpone the investigation as per the report, if he couldn't get Aldrich out of there from a hierarchy point-of-view that does limit his culpability, but doesn't eliminate it. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 27, 2021 8:54:44 GMT -6
Grown ass men in positions of power were told of a possible sexual assault by a member of their organization. They consciously elected to ignore it in pursuit of their own glory. They partied with the rapist, and let his name be put on the Cup. Then forgot about it as the organization they were in charge of bungled it. There is a direct line between the inaction of those grown ass men in power because of their pursuit of personal glory to a kid in Michigan getting raped by the same guy. They can all own it. Disappointed in the attempts to absolve people here. I have the perspective of living with a victim of sexual assault and watching the long term devastation it causes; perhaps this is coloring my judgement. This is what should have been done at the time. Doe went to skating coach, skating coach goes to head coach, head coach beats the fuck out of video coach and puts him in the hospital for 6 months Problem solved. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Oct 27, 2021 9:40:01 GMT -6
Well, no matter the reason, Stan is gone. It sure looks like some, or all of the management was involved in the usual cover up to protect the franchise. That is sick. But, what is sicker is what the perpetrator did. After all, this was 2010 and by that time anyone should have been able to get what he wanted sexually by mutual consent. There was no need to resort to what allegedly happened in this situation. But, I guess just cuz it's free doesn't mean that predatory behavior disappears. I guess for some being a predator is part of the experience, or necessary if one is lacking in the "social skills" needed to have a consensual encounter. In the meantime, it seems that the current team will be prey for most NHL teams this year.
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Post by mvr on Oct 27, 2021 9:55:19 GMT -6
There are countless tragic stories of children at birthday parties dying in swimming pools because of a diffusion of responsibility. All the adults thought someone else was watching the kids.
Sure, Quenneville attended the meeting. He might have been one to push for the investigation to be delayed, as Bowman alleges. But that call should come exclusively from management regardless. Like so much about this story, what is true depends on who you believe is telling the truth.
Clearly the coach and the players assumed management would take care of the situation. They trusted those in charge to do their jobs and investigate.
When nothing came of the situation, the likely conclusion they came to was that the investigators had turned up nothing.
People do make false accusations. Male on male rape is not common. The accuser here was an athlete (and likely more physically fit than the coach).
No doubt coercion played a role here because of the heavily imbalanced power dynamic. The victim was young and immature.
But let's also recall how a president coerced a 21 year old intern a few years earlier. We now live in a different age with a much healthier understanding of these issues. The "Me Too" movement has been a good thing. We must be careful not to judge historical actors with our present lenses. Our progressive Canadian Liberal prime minister wore blackface two decades ago.
The times have changed for the better. Hopefully, this would not happen today.
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Post by mvr on Oct 27, 2021 10:31:40 GMT -6
The decision made in the meeting, the report said, was “that Hockey Operations personnel should devote their exclusive attention to on-ice matters heading into the Stanley Cup Final, and that other appropriate Club personnel within the organization would take responsibility for ‘handling’ the Aldrich situation.”
Accounts of the meeting "vary significantly."
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Post by hsbob on Oct 27, 2021 10:48:53 GMT -6
I don't think we need to wonder who the 'one witness' who said McD and Q were more concerned with winning a cup was do we? The report doesn't mention what others in the room said including the witness/GM or if SB's contention that they didn't know how serious the allegations were at the time was accurate.
I don't want to split hairs on such a serious issue and they all could be lying and Q coulda said I want him off MY staff immediately and go w/o a video dept in the SCF. I also don't want to absolve anyone,even Q who I obviously admire,so what do we make of six players,Q and Chevy saying they didn't know and SB saying he knew but not how serious?
Could they possible have been vague,unsubstantiated charges at the time of the meeting or are every one of these guys just telling their own less than truthful version?
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Post by hsbob on Oct 27, 2021 10:58:19 GMT -6
The decision made in the meeting, the report said, was “that Hockey Operations personnel should devote their exclusive attention to on-ice matters heading into the Stanley Cup Final, and that other appropriate Club personnel within the organization would take responsibility for ‘handling’ the Aldrich situation.” Accounts of the meeting "vary significantly." I haven't read the entire report mvr so thanks. I'm still not sure of so many things,like were the allegations at the time lacking the severity necessary to blow things wide open as SB said. Could the GM,Ast GM or the HC still have told McD 'okay we won't go to the police but we want him gone NOW'? The perp celebrating alongside of his victim and getting a day with the cup are gut wrenching to hear. I doubt Q and Chevy come out unscathed. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 27, 2021 11:19:47 GMT -6
The decision made in the meeting, the report said, was “that Hockey Operations personnel should devote their exclusive attention to on-ice matters heading into the Stanley Cup Final, and that other appropriate Club personnel within the organization would take responsibility for ‘handling’ the Aldrich situation.” Accounts of the meeting "vary significantly." I haven't read the entire report mvr so thanks. I'm still not sure of so many things,like were the allegations at the time lacking the severity necessary to blow things wide open as SB said. Could the GM,Ast GM or the HC still have told McD 'okay we won't go to the police but we want him gone NOW'? The perp celebrating alongside of his victim and getting a day with the cup are gut wrenching to hear. I doubt Q and Chevy come out unscathed. I think that Q will get less repercussion than chevy since he was more "middle management" as coach compared to "upper management" Asst. GM up to President. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 27, 2021 11:29:09 GMT -6
I haven't read the entire report mvr so thanks. I'm still not sure of so many things,like were the allegations at the time lacking the severity necessary to blow things wide open as SB said. Could the GM,Ast GM or the HC still have told McD 'okay we won't go to the police but we want him gone NOW'? The perp celebrating alongside of his victim and getting a day with the cup are gut wrenching to hear. I doubt Q and Chevy come out unscathed. I think that Q will get less repercussion than chevy since he was more "middle management" as coach compared to "upper management" Asst. GM up to President. Maybe but it was Q's staff and Q had a higher profile at the time. I'd like to hear more from Paul Vincent as far of what they knew and when,he seems like the most honest one of em in the meeting. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 27, 2021 11:41:33 GMT -6
I think that Q will get less repercussion than chevy since he was more "middle management" as coach compared to "upper management" Asst. GM up to President. Maybe but it was Q's staff and Q had a higher profile at the time. I'd like to hear more from Paul Vincent as far of what they knew and when,he seems like the most honest one of em in the meeting. Did Q inherit aldrich as video coach since Q was in his 2nd year, almost, as HC? Now aldrich's dad is the equipment manager of the Sharks and I'm sure was hired based on that alone before Q was hired. I mean if bowman could use the "I was a rookie GM" as his excuse, why can't Q. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 27, 2021 11:54:21 GMT -6
I think that Q will get less repercussion than chevy since he was more "middle management" as coach compared to "upper management" Asst. GM up to President. Maybe but it was Q's staff and Q had a higher profile at the time. I'd like to hear more from Paul Vincent as far of what they knew and when,he seems like the most honest one of em in the meeting. I thought I read or saw somewhere that chevy and Q were going to meet with Bettman today or tomorrow. |
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Post by Tater on Oct 27, 2021 12:03:37 GMT -6
Looks like Q's meeting has been postponed until tomorrow.
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Post by mvr on Oct 27, 2021 12:29:58 GMT -6
The decision made in the meeting, the report said, was “that Hockey Operations personnel should devote their exclusive attention to on-ice matters heading into the Stanley Cup Final, and that other appropriate Club personnel within the organization would take responsibility for ‘handling’ the Aldrich situation.” Accounts of the meeting "vary significantly." I haven't read the entire report mvr so thanks. I'm still not sure of so many things,like were the allegations at the time lacking the severity necessary to blow things wide open as SB said. Could the GM,Ast GM or the HC still have told McD 'okay we won't go to the police but we want him gone NOW'? The perp celebrating alongside of his victim and getting a day with the cup are gut wrenching to hear. I doubt Q and Chevy come out unscathed. The nuances of what has not been said publicly is really telling. As I said above, my guess is that the entire staff believed what Aldrich was saying. They viewed the situation as a young troubled (drunk and likely high) kid exploring his sexuality but then ravaged later with guilt and humiliation at the possibility that he would be outed. The purpose behind burying the story was to protect the reputation not only of the team, but also the player and the coach. Hockey is a masculine sport. Not one active player in the history of the game has ever come out as homosexual. If we believe the latest research findings, one out of 20 males is gay or bisexual (which translates roughly into one player on every team). The fact that a woman alleges the victim and coach had engaged in a threesome with her in the hours before the incident does cloud the picture. We do not know the accuser, and we do not know his prior history. Having said that, clearly McD. and his staff should not have played the role of criminal investigator and jury. If the player wanted to go to the police, it should have been solely up to him to file charges. Management made a poor decision, and doing so led to the coach victimizing others later on. |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 27, 2021 12:48:20 GMT -6
There is plenty of righteous indignation being written in the press right now - and for the most part, rightfully so. But the world is full of layers of grey. My guess is that management and the coaching staff at the time fully believed the video coach's interpretation of what happened that day. They did not have the luxury of knowing about his subsequent indiscretions. They also likely knew him personally much better than the player. We do not know for certain which player made the accusations. Defence lawyers (often unfairly) put a rape victim's history on the stand to provide context. Without naming names, there were at least two young players on the Black Aces with problematic pasts involving conflicts with teammates etc. It could be that the management chose to believe what they wanted. Certainly, John McD. should be condemned for not taking action. So should Stan Bowman, who showed his true colours yesterday in his attempt to deflect all responsibility by pointing fingers at his boss and his coach. But I am not convinced the others - Quenneville, Chevy, the players on the ice. etc. - should own this. They were all very busy at the time. They likely assumed that management had investigated the allegation and determined it wasn't worth addressing. It is tragic that this story happened. But let's not create more victims here than necessary. |
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Post by mvr on Oct 27, 2021 13:42:15 GMT -6
My feeling is the team did "investigate" which means they did follow their harassment policies to a degree. How thoroughly they did this job is really the question here. The problem is that the investigators came to the wrong conclusion.
They believed the perpetrator, not the victim.
In hindsight, given Aldrich's following behaviour, we now know what a scumbag he really is.
This was not the only time this happened. They also believed the Rockford coach and not the victim Akim Aliu concerning the racism/harassment allegations.
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Post by BigT on Oct 27, 2021 15:21:18 GMT -6
We’ll hear a lot more tonight as John Doe reveals himself!!!
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Post by jacksalmon on Oct 27, 2021 15:28:02 GMT -6
To me, this was primarily a hockey team with a rogue coach. If the charge was originally made before the playoffs were complete, I can understand how they might want to delay full attention to the investigation of the charge until after the season was over. That could have been done as a conscious decision; or as a fakeout to ensure that full attention was devoted to the main task at hand----winning the Cup. But, it is pretty clear that once the Cup was won, the organization thru its sick management just swept the allegation and investigation under the rug. That is why the organization deserves severe criticism and why Stanbo had to go.
In reality, any organization can have a rogue employee that does something like what was allegedly done here. The organization is not to blame for that type of rogue, unsanctioned behavior. The org has to step up and investigate and call in law enforcement, if a crime is involved and go after the individual if he is guilty of the charge. If the public can't understand that the org is not responsible for every rogue act of an individual who is an employee, then the hell with the public. These days people should understand that an org can't be held responsible for the rogue acts of an individual just because he is an employee, unless there was a culture in the org that encouraged the behavior. It does not seem like that the was the case here, so it was a true rogue act that should have been investigated and acted upon no matter what the cost was to the org. Then, the org could have held its collective head high and said that we are not responsible for rogue acts, but we investigated and terminated the employment of the actor, if that was merited. Instead, out of a fear of exposing the org to bad publicity, the org chose to ignore the charge and now everyone responsible for that decision should be held accountable.
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Post by nighbor on Oct 27, 2021 15:36:28 GMT -6
Here's where the Hawks ORG F'd up at the time. They hear from the player through the system what happened. Instead of firing the guy on the spot and backing the player with any charge he would have to report to the police. Instead they just fire the guy and tell everyone it's been handled. All blame falls on Rocky, McDonuts and Bowman. They were the top 3 dogs in the ORG. The rest of the other guys were just fearing their jobs would be over. Q already had a cup as an assistant. He had a great coaching record and would have been hired again. Stan on the other hand was a rookie GM and as many have said Stan was not a hockey man so this would have probably been a one and done. Both Stan and Q are said to have agreed that they would leave it up to their superior to do the right thing and both wanted to keep silent until after the playoffs. The bad part was not the three week delay as there were only accusations but that it wasn't handled right after the cup win. |
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Post by nighbor on Oct 27, 2021 16:08:58 GMT -6
I think they wanted to rid themselves of the front office because of the bad hockey decisions but this is a way for them to accomplish that and look like they’re doing it for the proper reasons. A fortuitous happenstance for the club. But seriously, in business or politics, you rarely see the head of the snake fall. This is as close as it gets. There’s likely more fallout to come as all the deniers will be called out again. Sad display for what was for awhile the franchise face of the NHL. Now let’s hire the right people, get a fresh set of eyes on the operation from minors through the scouting department all the way up and get this back on track. Amen to that, lets start with the coach Stan hired. Crawford knows the players and team so he can take over for now. If the Hunters wanna take over in the summer that'll be huge for the franchise. But all that matters now is Bowman is gone 🤗 You do realize that Stan hired Crawford. Crawford is part of the problem. JC and Crawford coached together in Sweden. One would hope that if Crawford knew how to fix things he would have put the team before self and convinced his HC to change directions. |
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Post by gigecj on Oct 27, 2021 16:18:54 GMT -6
At least until November 9th.
I see what you did there! And yes. Hoss for coach!
All for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by number9 on Oct 27, 2021 16:54:55 GMT -6
So it was Kyle Beach. Kudos to him for stepping up.
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Post by jimakablkhwks918 on Oct 27, 2021 16:57:02 GMT -6
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Post by number9 on Oct 27, 2021 17:16:01 GMT -6
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Oct 27, 2021 17:26:26 GMT -6
Beach was my second guess, it's a shame cause he had skill and size. I wouldn't have taken him were the Hawks were drafting but he would've went in the first round or 2nd.
Hawks high end prospect who just finished his CHL career and played 4gms with Rockford then became a black ace, then that nasty PoS totally messed up his career.
He wasn't known for being level headed but he was still a kid at that point and he must've been in awe from playing in juniors to being around one of the best teams ever in the same year. Then someone with power abused it and totally messed him up.
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