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Post by OldTimeHawky on Oct 27, 2021 18:10:11 GMT -6
That was hard to watch, I couldn't imagine being in that situation because I wouldn't have put myself in it, but being called homophobic slurs by some of the players when you're just starting your pro career must've been devastating. I mentioned before he wasn't level heading back then and he basically said everything I brought up, even mentioned snapping, which he did a few times in juniors and AHL. Knowing this, and Aldrich being the predator he is, he used it against him and the team and organization let him down when he had the courage to admit what happened. Stan calling out Q with what he might've said in a meeting and now what Beach said, I can't see how he doesn't face a full investigation and if Beach told the names of the players using slurs this could get uglier. |
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Post by vadarx on Oct 27, 2021 18:24:08 GMT -6
That was hard to watch, I couldn't imagine being in that situation because I wouldn't have put myself in it, but being called homophobic slurs by some of the players when you're just starting your pro career must've been devastating. I mentioned before he wasn't level heading back then and he basically said everything I brought up, even mentioned snapping, which he did a few times in juniors and AHL. Knowing this, and Aldrich being the predator he is, he used it against him and the team and organization let him down when he had the courage to admit what happened. Stan calling out Q with what he might've said in a meeting and now what Beach said, I can't see how he doesn't face a full investigation and if Beach told the names of the players using slurs this could get uglier. this might not be popular, but I'm gonna have a hard time blaming any of the players for harassing him, because I don't believe any of them actually knew or understood what happened to him. they knew something strange happened and that the guy was fired, but I have a very hard time believing the players would actually harass him if they knew the effect it had had on him. until I hear actual proof that his teammates knew exactly what happened and also that they understood what happened and the effect it had upon him and continued to verbally abuse him, then I will continue to believe that what they did was nothing different than what goes on still to this day in regards to hazing the new guys. now, whether THAT is ok is a different discussion for another day. |
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Post by hawkfaninpdx on Oct 27, 2021 18:25:32 GMT -6
Kudos to Kyle for speaking out like he did. I am really, really impressed!
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Post by BigT on Oct 27, 2021 18:55:27 GMT -6
This will be unpopular to say. But Beach has his moments too. He was suspended in the WHL for making fun of another players brother who was mentally handicapped. The on ice officials thought they heard that before but weren’t sure. When the player complained the refs actually caught him. He also fought Aliu at a team meal. He was a hot head and I don’t think he gelled very well with the Hawks players.
However, looking at all the evidence, I can see how management probably didn’t put much merit into it. Even though they should have followed their protocol. The whole situation sucks. Cuz I’m someone who believes everyone deserves another chance. And Beach was a young kid at the time and he very well could have straightened out and had a decent career.
I will still maintain that this is management’s mess. They should have followed their own good book and passed it on the HR and let them investigate this thing from the start. Let’s just hope we don’t see this shit again!!!
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Post by jimakablkhwks918 on Oct 27, 2021 19:45:56 GMT -6
That was hard to watch, I couldn't imagine being in that situation because I wouldn't have put myself in it, but being called homophobic slurs by some of the players when you're just starting your pro career must've been devastating. I mentioned before he wasn't level heading back then and he basically said everything I brought up, even mentioned snapping, which he did a few times in juniors and AHL. Knowing this, and Aldrich being the predator he is, he used it against him and the team and organization let him down when he had the courage to admit what happened. Stan calling out Q with what he might've said in a meeting and now what Beach said, I can't see how he doesn't face a full investigation and if Beach told the names of the players using slurs this could get uglier. RE the players....it's time for the "best captain ever" to be made available to the press for questions about this. No more bullshit, clearly the players knew |
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Post by mvr on Oct 27, 2021 20:26:24 GMT -6
This will be unpopular to say. But Beach has his moments too. He was suspended in the WHL for making fun of another players brother who was mentally handicapped. The on ice officials thought they heard that before but weren’t sure. When the player complained the refs actually caught him. He also fought Aliu at a team meal. He was a hot head and I don’t think he gelled very well with the Hawks players. However, looking at all the evidence, I can see how management probably didn’t put much merit into it. Even though they should have followed their protocol. The whole situation sucks. Cuz I’m someone who believes everyone deserves another chance. And Beach was a young kid at the time and he very well could have straightened out and had a decent career. I will still maintain that this is management’s mess. They should have followed their own good book and passed it on the HR and let them investigate this thing from the start. Let’s just hope we don’t see this shit again!!! This is the unspoken story here. Now that Beach has come forward, the entire picture emerges. Beach had the troubled past. Because of this history, nobody in management believed his version of the story. They blamed him. It was exactly the same story with Aliu. Aliu had that troubled past. When the issues with Peters began, it was Aliu's fault. He could not get along with people. We also now have a much better read on the later problems Beach had with teammates in Rockford. Was he the cancer beating up on undersized teammates? Perhaps. But perhaps he was responding to others taunting or verbally abusing him about his rumoured sexuality. Whatever the case, the Hawks did an atrocious job nurturing and developing their prospects during this era. The Beach and Aliu stories suggest a reason why. I am very glad Bowman is not running the show any longer. |
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Post by vadarx on Oct 27, 2021 21:01:58 GMT -6
That was hard to watch, I couldn't imagine being in that situation because I wouldn't have put myself in it, but being called homophobic slurs by some of the players when you're just starting your pro career must've been devastating. I mentioned before he wasn't level heading back then and he basically said everything I brought up, even mentioned snapping, which he did a few times in juniors and AHL. Knowing this, and Aldrich being the predator he is, he used it against him and the team and organization let him down when he had the courage to admit what happened. Stan calling out Q with what he might've said in a meeting and now what Beach said, I can't see how he doesn't face a full investigation and if Beach told the names of the players using slurs this could get uglier. RE the players....it's time for the "best captain ever" to be made available to the press for questions about this. No more bullshit, clearly the players knew what did they know? |
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Post by mvr on Oct 27, 2021 21:17:23 GMT -6
The problem is how one defines the word "know."
I am sure many did hear the story that an encounter took place. Like management, they came to believe the video coach's version that the sex was consensual. They did not believe Beach's accusations. They thought the player was embarrassed about participating in a homosexual act.
I suspect the young hotshot rookie Beach was never really liked by the other players. This story did not help him meld with the others. The majority knew the coach much better and had worked with him individually all year.
We all tend to believe and support those whom we know. The outsider is perceived as the problem. The story the players thought they knew was not the one they are hearing now. In a sense, then, they really "knew" nothing.
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Post by mvr on Oct 27, 2021 21:32:10 GMT -6
We must remember that the only reason we all believe Kyle Beach now is because of the victims who bravely came forward over the past several months.
Aldrich continues to maintain that the sex was consensual. Eleven years ago, who would we have believed?
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Post by bigbarn27 on Oct 28, 2021 0:11:43 GMT -6
Just watched interview think thats it for Q. What everyone needs to remember is this report was done for the Blackhawks no one is under oath. This whole report is to put the Wirtz and the Bowmans in the best light possible.
and to turn the page as quickly as possible by bringing up Q and players! I feel for Kyle when he googled that scumbag it must of torn him apart! Sounds like he starting to processes this and thats gotta be some hard ass work.
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Post by jimakablkhwks918 on Oct 28, 2021 5:47:11 GMT -6
RE the players....it's time for the "best captain ever" to be made available to the press for questions about this. No more bullshit, clearly the players knew what did they know? At least one player was quoted as calling him a faggot and asking if he liked the sex. Patrick Kane double spoke in his interview yesterday where he embarrassingly fawned over Stan Bowman and at one point said he knew nothing, then said there were rumors in the locker room, so apparently players knew. Whether anyone likes it or not, this is US Olympic Gymnastics, OSU wrestling, and Penn State. Perhaps not in scope, but certainly in egregiousness. This will be my last comment on this. There is clearly a desire on these boards to shrug this off, celebrate that Stan is gone, and focus on who the next GM will be. Joe Paterno's supporters came to his defense to the level of making death threats to the press who dared challenge his reputation. One of the culpable in the OSU wrestling was elected to the US House of Representatives, so it's not surprising. Carry on in downplaying it and blaming Beach for his reputation. |
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Post by mvr on Oct 28, 2021 7:03:35 GMT -6
I understand the need for some to seek justice and punish everyone even peripherally involved given the ugliness of the situation.
But I am just not ready to throw Toews, Kane, Keith and Quenneville under the bus here. The players and coach weren't there. They had to rely on what they were told.
There are some big differences here between this case and the others.
1) the victim in this case was already an adult of consenting age.
2) the victim was male and 6'3" and 200 pounds. He was not a waif gymnast who could not physically overcome her abuser.
3) the victim allegedly had participated in a threesome earlier in the night.
4) details of the incident remain unclear - ie) the date the attack took place, the fact that Aldrich held a baseball hat to restrain his victim while at the same time performing oral sex.
To my mind, this story more closely resembles the Weinstein "casting coach" abusages. We all agree Aldrich should have been removed from the team when the story first emerged. The question is who should be held accountable. The problem here is that nobody believed Beach's story.
Our understanding of how an imbalanced power relationship can lead to rape coercion didn't really exist before the revelations of the "Me Too" movement. Clearly we are all interpreting the Monica Lewinsky affair in a much different way today than we did in the 1990s.
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Post by vadarx on Oct 28, 2021 7:29:36 GMT -6
At least one player was quoted as calling him a faggot and asking if he liked the sex. Patrick Kane double spoke in his interview yesterday where he embarrassingly fawned over Stan Bowman and at one point said he knew nothing, then said there were rumors in the locker room, so apparently players knew. Whether anyone likes it or not, this is US Olympic Gymnastics, OSU wrestling, and Penn State. Perhaps not in scope, but certainly in egregiousness. This will be my last comment on this. There is clearly a desire on these boards to shrug this off, celebrate that Stan is gone, and focus on who the next GM will be. Joe Paterno's supporters came to his defense to the level of making death threats to the press who dared challenge his reputation. One of the culpable in the OSU wrestling was elected to the US House of Representatives, so it's not surprising. Carry on in downplaying it and blaming Beach for his reputation. I don't think I agree with the idea that anyone here is downplaying what happened to Kyle Beach. imo, everyone here is in agreement that what happened was despicable and absolutely handled in the worst possible way by those in charge of the organization. what I think you are seeing is folks trying to reason out why it happened, not to absolve blame, but instead to wrap their head around how something like this happened when the right choices that should have been made at the time are so obvious to us and yet they were not made by the folks that needed to make them. that there are some here that would like to move on and talk about things moving forward isn't terribly surprising in that this isn't something too many want to talk about (thus why it took 11 years for it to even come out), in addition to the fact that what are any of us here going to do about it anyway? in regard to the players, I'll ask again: what did they actually know? that is what I would like to know and I suspect I will never get an answer, or at least not one that will be sufficient from all parties involved. not even Beach could answer this question. IMO, I have very serious doubts that ANY of the players knew or understood exactly what happened to Beach. all they "knew" were innuendo and rumor. that they made fun of him should absolutely be of no surprise. he was a rookie, a new guy, and as such everyone on this board should understand how that usually goes. you are going to get an earful from the older guys to see how you handle it. Beach likely handled it poorly (for obvious reasons to us now) and that almost always just results in more harassment... as I said previously, whether calling those names or harassing him to begin is ok is a different discussion. anyone that has played any sport or even participated in any male dominant group activity in that age group should absolutely understand how the group think operates. so, is it at all a surprise that they would do such a thing? does that make it right? should the players be held over the fire for something that happens all the time or should we instead examine that behavior and try to correct it for future generations? is it even correctable? there are a lot of tough questions to answer and tough conversations to have going forward here and I hope that you participate, Jim. I hope that you do not think I am trying to just sweep this under a rug here in regards to the players, as I that is not my intention, it is just that I personally have a hard time persecuting them when I do not believe what they did was necessarily malicious (but in the longer view of things also not right). I have a very hard time believing that had any of theose players actually understood or knew what happened to Beach that they would have done what they did. |
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Post by BigT on Oct 28, 2021 8:21:55 GMT -6
I understand the need for some to seek justice and punish everyone even peripherally involved given the ugliness of the situation. But I am just not ready to throw Toews, Kane, Keith and Quenneville under the bus here. The players and coach weren't there. They had to rely on what they were told. There are some big differences here between this case and the others. 1) the victim in this case was already an adult of consenting age. 2) the victim was male and 6'3" and 200 pounds. He was not a waif gymnast who could not physically overcome her abuser. 3) the victim allegedly had participated in a threesome earlier in the night. 4) details of the incident remain unclear - ie) the date the attack took place, the fact that Aldrich held a baseball hat to restrain his victim while at the same time performing oral sex. To my mind, this story more closely resembles the Weinstein "casting coach" abusages. We all agree Aldrich should have been removed from the team when the story first emerged. The question is who should be held accountable. The problem here is that nobody believed Beach's story. Our understanding of how an imbalanced power relationship can lead to rape coercion didn't really exist before the revelations of the "Me Too" movement. Clearly we are all interpreting the Monica Lewinsky affair in a much different way today than we did in the 1990s. While I do believe you bring up a lot of valid points or questions. The fact still remains that Q, Keith, Kane or Toews we’re not in charge of the team and this is exactly what upper management gets paid to do. McD and Stan dropped the ball here. Deflecting blame just shows you how much of cowards these guys are. McD won’t ever face the music. And Stan has decided it’s easy to blame himself, but it’s even easier to blame someone else. And that’s exactly what he did. And to another point, this is exactly why you don’t hire young impressionable people to be managers. Stans biggest mistake was being put in a very powerful position. Let’s say for shits and giggles that Q did tell him to put off the investigation. Sure that’s an asshole move. But it’s still Stan Bowman’s call to make. I don’t see no reason here for anyone but McD and Stan to share the blame. Blaming the players is even worse. They were very young men and should not shoulder any of this. Again. This is why Stan Bowman is as an awful person to put in charge. Many stuck up for him being a yes man. This is what you get. Inexperience and very timid to make the right decision plus being impressionable by older co workers. It’s a recipe for disaster. Even Dcats comments on Stan were quite alarming. “I understand why they had to get rid of him”. He did say that Stan treated him well, but also reiterated that he understands that they had to get rid of him. Why would he say that? Cuz Stan was a fan boy who didn’t take care of his own house, he was in way over his head and he started pointing fingers. He was too young and inexperienced to have a position like that. Shame on the Hawks for allowing that. They better fucking learn. This Davidson fella should not see the light of day as GM!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 28, 2021 8:49:01 GMT -6
At least one player was quoted as calling him a faggot and asking if he liked the sex. Patrick Kane double spoke in his interview yesterday where he embarrassingly fawned over Stan Bowman and at one point said he knew nothing, then said there were rumors in the locker room, so apparently players knew. Whether anyone likes it or not, this is US Olympic Gymnastics, OSU wrestling, and Penn State. Perhaps not in scope, but certainly in egregiousness. This will be my last comment on this. There is clearly a desire on these boards to shrug this off, celebrate that Stan is gone, and focus on who the next GM will be. Joe Paterno's supporters came to his defense to the level of making death threats to the press who dared challenge his reputation. One of the culpable in the OSU wrestling was elected to the US House of Representatives, so it's not surprising. Carry on in downplaying it and blaming Beach for his reputation. I understand your stance here especially since you've said how the issue has affected you personally and I'll readily admit to an admiration of Q but you can't compare this one time decision to what Penn State allowed Sandusky to do for over a decade. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 28, 2021 9:34:38 GMT -6
Going back to when Aliu charged the Org with abuse of a different type,he was either called a liar or blamed for the music he was playing,even those who said Peters was wrong were also quick to include Aliu's past behavior.....the terms punk and thug were used. It was said the issue was only coming up years later as a money grab due to a failed career.
Beach's past has already been mentioned and he was an absolute tooth ache for every single org he had been with much like Aliu so I won't elaborate.
If the reports of a liquor filled,three way with a prostitute which by the way is illegal activity in itself prior to the attack is true,I can see a jaundiced eye toward the allegations. Was Beach forced to partake in the drinking and whoring at the point of a baseball bat or was he a willing participant who put himself in a bad situation when things escalated?
BUT since the perp has been subsequently convicted and jailed for the same type of attack,Beach's allegations carry weight to be fair....we'll all decide how much ourselves.
It's a big shit sandwich and everybody will have to take a bite I guess.
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Post by BigT on Oct 28, 2021 10:03:30 GMT -6
Going back to when Aliu charged the Org with abuse of a different type,he was either called a liar or blamed for the music he was playing,even those who said Peters was wrong were also quick to include Aliu's past behavior.....the terms punk and thug were used. It was said the issue was only coming up years later as a money grab due to a failed career. Beach's past has already been mentioned and he was an absolute tooth ache for every single org he had been with much like Aliu so I won't elaborate. If the reports of a liquor filled,three way with a prostitute which by the way is illegal activity in itself prior to the attack is true,I can see a jaundiced eye toward the allegations. Was Beach forced to partake in the drinking and whoring at the point of a baseball bat or was he a willing participant who put himself in a bad situation when things escalated? BUT since the perp has been subsequently convicted and jailed for the same type of attack,Beach's allegations carry weight to be fair....we'll all decide how much ourselves. It's a big shit sandwich and everybody will have to take a bite I guess. Good post and valid points. One thing I will say is that I hope the Hawks don’t promote the next youngen to be the GM. That’s how things get missed, not just with the hockey ops, but with legal matters. Our last two GMs were rookies. It’s time to look at a seasoned vet. The org had massive problems with both, regardless of the team iced. The RFA fiasco. Now the Beach fiasco. Bill Peters fiasco. Stan was there for all. And all of them happened around the same time. Maybe a year or so apart. That’s a lot of eff ups in a short amount of time. I just hope to avoid future lunacy, the Hawks hire a good GM, and surround him with a solid cast so nothing like this gets put by the way side. This org has had a lot of terrible things surrounding it. They gotta make it right very soon. Due to this cloud around, the era is over. They need to move on and start again with a fresh batch. It’s the only way to move forward!!! |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Oct 28, 2021 10:07:06 GMT -6
Hawks file for dismissal of both lawsuits. I will be done talking about this , hoping it goes to trial if thats what Kyle wants. I love talking hockey with all you guys, but this has layers of stuff that I dont need to be talking about on a message board.
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Post by LordKOTL on Oct 28, 2021 10:23:30 GMT -6
This will be unpopular to say. But Beach has his moments too. He was suspended in the WHL for making fun of another players brother who was mentally handicapped. The on ice officials thought they heard that before but weren’t sure. When the player complained the refs actually caught him. He also fought Aliu at a team meal. He was a hot head and I don’t think he gelled very well with the Hawks players. However, looking at all the evidence, I can see how management probably didn’t put much merit into it. Even though they should have followed their protocol. The whole situation sucks. Cuz I’m someone who believes everyone deserves another chance. And Beach was a young kid at the time and he very well could have straightened out and had a decent career. I will still maintain that this is management’s mess. They should have followed their own good book and passed it on the HR and let them investigate this thing from the start. Let’s just hope we don’t see this shit again!!! Doesn't mean he deserved to be sexually assaulted. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Oct 28, 2021 10:27:18 GMT -6
That was hard to watch, I couldn't imagine being in that situation because I wouldn't have put myself in it, but being called homophobic slurs by some of the players when you're just starting your pro career must've been devastating. I mentioned before he wasn't level heading back then and he basically said everything I brought up, even mentioned snapping, which he did a few times in juniors and AHL. Knowing this, and Aldrich being the predator he is, he used it against him and the team and organization let him down when he had the courage to admit what happened. Stan calling out Q with what he might've said in a meeting and now what Beach said, I can't see how he doesn't face a full investigation and if Beach told the names of the players using slurs this could get uglier. this might not be popular, but I'm gonna have a hard time blaming any of the players for harassing him, because I don't believe any of them actually knew or understood what happened to him. they knew something strange happened and that the guy was fired, but I have a very hard time believing the players would actually harass him if they knew the effect it had had on him. until I hear actual proof that his teammates knew exactly what happened and also that they understood what happened and the effect it had upon him and continued to verbally abuse him, then I will continue to believe that what they did was nothing different than what goes on still to this day in regards to hazing the new guys. now, whether THAT is ok is a different discussion for another day. Uhh...not quite. I don't blame the players like I do for the upper management, Gary, and *possibly* the coaches depending on how much power the coaches could have exerted to get Aldrich away from the team on something like "administrative leave". The players likely didn't have the power to do much. However, whoever made the alleged comment of "Did you enjoy the blowjob?" Yeah, no. That was uncalled for. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Oct 28, 2021 10:42:33 GMT -6
I understand the need for some to seek justice and punish everyone even peripherally involved given the ugliness of the situation. But I am just not ready to throw Toews, Kane, Keith and Quenneville under the bus here. The players and coach weren't there. They had to rely on what they were told. There are some big differences here between this case and the others. 1) the victim in this case was already an adult of consenting age. 2) the victim was male and 6'3" and 200 pounds. He was not a waif gymnast who could not physically overcome her abuser. 3) the victim allegedly had participated in a threesome earlier in the night. 4) details of the incident remain unclear - ie) the date the attack took place, the fact that Aldrich held a baseball hat to restrain his victim while at the same time performing oral sex. To my mind, this story more closely resembles the Weinstein "casting coach" abusages. We all agree Aldrich should have been removed from the team when the story first emerged. The question is who should be held accountable. The problem here is that nobody believed Beach's story. Our understanding of how an imbalanced power relationship can lead to rape coercion didn't really exist before the revelations of the "Me Too" movement. Clearly we are all interpreting the Monica Lewinsky affair in a much different way today than we did in the 1990s. Wow. You are so wrong it's not even funny. It's tragic. The victim's age has nothing to do with it. He was allegedly sexually assaulted. The victim's size doesn't matter, either. Further, people *properly* trained to investigate these matters knew back in 2010 that unbalanced power relationships exist. Laypeople, like yourself, probably didn't. Professionals, like my wife, most certainly did. I would put real money on the fact that none of McD, McIsaac, Stan, Q, Chevy, and even Gary do not have the proper training to conduct a proper investigation into an alleged sexual assault case. Instead they violated the 'hawks own internal policies by not doing anything about it, not putting Aldrich on something like "administrative leave" to get him away from Beach and any other potential victims until they had professionals conduct a proper investigation. They didn't believe Beach's story, and swept it under the rug. The top brass is accountable. McD, Stan, and McIsaac. ALL of them definitely had the power. The question is whether or not Q and Chevy had the power to get Aldrich out of the situation. Right now I don't know if they did or not. If they did, they should be gone. If not, then no. |
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Post by BigT on Oct 28, 2021 10:51:43 GMT -6
This will be unpopular to say. But Beach has his moments too. He was suspended in the WHL for making fun of another players brother who was mentally handicapped. The on ice officials thought they heard that before but weren’t sure. When the player complained the refs actually caught him. He also fought Aliu at a team meal. He was a hot head and I don’t think he gelled very well with the Hawks players. However, looking at all the evidence, I can see how management probably didn’t put much merit into it. Even though they should have followed their protocol. The whole situation sucks. Cuz I’m someone who believes everyone deserves another chance. And Beach was a young kid at the time and he very well could have straightened out and had a decent career. I will still maintain that this is management’s mess. They should have followed their own good book and passed it on the HR and let them investigate this thing from the start. Let’s just hope we don’t see this shit again!!! Doesn't mean he deserved to be sexually assaulted. You’re absolutely right. But I still think more has to come of this story before it’s said and done. He and Alldick pick up a hooker. All three have different stories. I find the story has many holes in it. But that’s still not to say he’s the only one telling the truth. But we will never find out. So let’s just hope something like this never happens again!!! |
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Post by jacksalmon on Oct 28, 2021 11:19:58 GMT -6
I understand the need for some to seek justice and punish everyone even peripherally involved given the ugliness of the situation. But I am just not ready to throw Toews, Kane, Keith and Quenneville under the bus here. The players and coach weren't there. They had to rely on what they were told. There are some big differences here between this case and the others. 1) the victim in this case was already an adult of consenting age. 2) the victim was male and 6'3" and 200 pounds. He was not a waif gymnast who could not physically overcome her abuser. 3) the victim allegedly had participated in a threesome earlier in the night. 4) details of the incident remain unclear - ie) the date the attack took place, the fact that Aldrich held a baseball hat to restrain his victim while at the same time performing oral sex. To my mind, this story more closely resembles the Weinstein "casting coach" abusages. We all agree Aldrich should have been removed from the team when the story first emerged. The question is who should be held accountable. The problem here is that nobody believed Beach's story. Our understanding of how an imbalanced power relationship can lead to rape coercion didn't really exist before the revelations of the "Me Too" movement. Clearly we are all interpreting the Monica Lewinsky affair in a much different way today than we did in the 1990s. Wow. You are so wrong it's not even funny. It's tragic. The victim's age has nothing to do with it. He was allegedly sexually assaulted. The victim's size doesn't matter, either. Further, people *properly* trained to investigate these matters knew back in 2010 that unbalanced power relationships exist. Laypeople, like yourself, probably didn't. Professionals, like my wife, most certainly did. I would put real money on the fact that none of McD, McIsaac, Stan, Q, Chevy, and even Gary do not have the proper training to conduct a proper investigation into an alleged sexual assault case. Instead they violated the 'hawks own internal policies by not doing anything about it, not putting Aldrich on something like "administrative leave" to get him away from Beach and any other potential victims until they had professionals conduct a proper investigation. They didn't believe Beach's story, and swept it under the rug.The top brass is accountable. McD, Stan, and McIsaac. ALL of them definitely had the power. The question is whether or not Q and Chevy had the power to get Aldrich out of the situation. Right now I don't know if they did or not. If they did, they should be gone. If not, then no. I agree with all that you said in the highlighted portion of your post. There is no doubt that this should have been turned over to the proper professionals for a valid investigation. Instead, they did nothing. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Oct 28, 2021 11:20:49 GMT -6
Doesn't mean he deserved to be sexually assaulted. You’re absolutely right. But I still think more has to come of this story before it’s said and done. He and Alldick pick up a hooker. All three have different stories. I find the story has many holes in it. But that’s still not to say he’s the only one telling the truth. But we will never find out. So let’s just hope something like this never happens again!!! Which is why I think the team--and that mean McD, Stan, and McIssac, SERIOUSLY dropped the ball and those in the 'hawks employ deserved to get canned. I've said before what I think of the situation of Q, Chevy, and the players: their cuplability is proportianal to the amount of power they had to affect the situation. The players? didn't have much. Q and Chevy? I really don't know if they could have affected it or not. If they could have and didn't, they should be canned. if they couldn't, then they shouldn't. In my opinion, the team should have got Aldrich away from Beach as a precaution. The logical way would have been sending Aldrich to "Administrative leave", but even though it would have been a dickish move, removing Beach from the Black Aces would have worked as well to get him away from a potentially dangerous situation, then get professionals in to do an investigation--like the police. Have people be interviewed at the time. Have the phone logs pulled. Basically: don't sit on it and don't sweep it under the rug. The 'hawks did. The fact that this is all coming out does give me hope that it will help things like this from happening, or at least get it into the limelight. |
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Post by hawkfaninpdx on Oct 28, 2021 12:14:39 GMT -6
I understand the need for some to seek justice and punish everyone even peripherally involved given the ugliness of the situation. But I am just not ready to throw Toews, Kane, Keith and Quenneville under the bus here. The players and coach weren't there. They had to rely on what they were told. There are some big differences here between this case and the others. 1) the victim in this case was already an adult of consenting age. 2) the victim was male and 6'3" and 200 pounds. He was not a waif gymnast who could not physically overcome her abuser. 3) the victim allegedly had participated in a threesome earlier in the night. 4) details of the incident remain unclear - ie) the date the attack took place, the fact that Aldrich held a baseball hat to restrain his victim while at the same time performing oral sex. To my mind, this story more closely resembles the Weinstein "casting coach" abusages. We all agree Aldrich should have been removed from the team when the story first emerged. The question is who should be held accountable. The problem here is that nobody believed Beach's story. Our understanding of how an imbalanced power relationship can lead to rape coercion didn't really exist before the revelations of the "Me Too" movement. Clearly we are all interpreting the Monica Lewinsky affair in a much different way today than we did in the 1990s. I think that you're missing the bigger picture, or context, here: their positions were asymmetric. Aldrich was the coach and Beach was an aspiring NHL player. For us, perhaps, it may seem that Beach could've told Aldrich to go take a hike; his NHL career did not hinge on Aldrich or his assessment. However, we are not looking at this through Kyle's eyes. Aldrich was a coach; he was authority. For what it's worth, in this society -- and probably most others -- we are taught to defer and acquiesce to authority. Yes, Kyle was a big strong man, but it's not like Nassar forcibly raped the gymnasts. He manipulated them and wielded power over them. In this sense, the two situations lie on the same continuum. |
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Post by vadarx on Oct 28, 2021 12:19:49 GMT -6
Hawks file for dismissal of both lawsuits. I will be done talking about this , hoping it goes to trial if thats what Kyle wants. I love talking hockey with all you guys, but this has layers of stuff that I dont need to be talking about on a message board. you've gotta be kidding me..... I can only assume the plaintiff have decided not to settle. fun times are ahead... |
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 28, 2021 12:28:33 GMT -6
Hawks file for dismissal of both lawsuits. I will be done talking about this , hoping it goes to trial if thats what Kyle wants. I love talking hockey with all you guys, but this has layers of stuff that I dont need to be talking about on a message board. you've gotta be kidding me..... I can only assume the plaintiff have decided not to settle. fun times are ahead... I haven't looked but has the attorney also filed against Notre Dame and the Uni. of Ohio-Miami? Both hired him after the Hawks. And Ohio fired him for making advances to a couple players there. Don't know why he left Notre Dame, can't find info on that. Or maybe he got a better offer from Ohio. |
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Post by vadarx on Oct 28, 2021 13:11:49 GMT -6
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Post by mvr on Oct 28, 2021 13:20:14 GMT -6
I understand the need for some to seek justice and punish everyone even peripherally involved given the ugliness of the situation. But I am just not ready to throw Toews, Kane, Keith and Quenneville under the bus here. The players and coach weren't there. They had to rely on what they were told. There are some big differences here between this case and the others. 1) the victim in this case was already an adult of consenting age. 2) the victim was male and 6'3" and 200 pounds. He was not a waif gymnast who could not physically overcome her abuser. 3) the victim allegedly had participated in a threesome earlier in the night. 4) details of the incident remain unclear - ie) the date the attack took place, the fact that Aldrich held a baseball hat to restrain his victim while at the same time performing oral sex. To my mind, this story more closely resembles the Weinstein "casting coach" abusages. We all agree Aldrich should have been removed from the team when the story first emerged. The question is who should be held accountable. The problem here is that nobody believed Beach's story. Our understanding of how an imbalanced power relationship can lead to rape coercion didn't really exist before the revelations of the "Me Too" movement. Clearly we are all interpreting the Monica Lewinsky affair in a much different way today than we did in the 1990s. I think that you're missing the bigger picture, or context, here: their positions were asymmetric. Aldrich was the coach and Beach was an aspiring NHL player. For us, perhaps, it may seem that Beach could've told Aldrich to go take a hike; his NHL career did not hinge on Aldrich or his assessment. However, we are not looking at this through Kyle's eyes. Aldrich was a coach; he was authority. For what it's worth, in this society -- and probably most others -- we are taught to defer and acquiesce to authority. Yes, Kyle was a big strong man, but it's not like Nassar forcibly raped the gymnasts. He manipulated them and wielded power over them. In this sense, the two situations lie on the same continuum. I am not missing this picture at all. The allegations disgust me. I do understand how Beach must have felt helpless in this situation. I do understand the power coercion dynamic. Nobody here is minimizing Beach's anguish or suggesting he is at fault. He deserves any financial compensation he can get from the team, the league and the players' association. As fans of the team, we are trying to understand what happened and why. We are sorting out who should face consequences. Bowman and McD. did not do their jobs. There is no question about this reality. Even if they did not believe Beach's story, they should have taken action and informed the authorities immediately. They do not have the experience or training to be judge and jury. The personal life coach also did not do his job. His advice to Beach disgusts me as does the lack of engagement from the players' association. My concern is for those on the periphery (players and coaches) who also seem to be smeared with the same brush of irresponsibility. In the Penn State situation, there were witnesses who saw what was going on. Regarding the gymnasts, the doctor involved was allowed to continue his assaults long after the initial allegations surfaced. The problem with the Beach tragedy is that there were no witnesses. Those involved but not in positions of authority (the players and coaches) were relying on determining truths based on two diametrically opposed versions of an event. Given the situation (Beach's age, his size, the threesome incident, Beach's previous history etc), it does not surprise that they trusted the coach's version of events and not the victim's. Obviously, they were wrong to come to that conclusion. But should they be punished for thinking that way then? |
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Post by mvr on Oct 28, 2021 13:38:34 GMT -6
Regarding Coach Quenneville:
We are hearing conflicting stories about what words he said at that meeting. Obviously, he would have been frustrated with the situation, and perhaps he was dismissive. No doubt, he had other priorities. Beach was not one of his players at the time.
The meeting occurred more than 10 years ago. People's memories are not reliable.
We know that Stan Bowman threw the coach under the bus and made him appear selfish and unsympathetic, suggesting Quenneville encouraged the team to bury the story until after the playoffs. Nobody else to my knowledge has made these allegations (though they might be true).
We do know that the previous coach and general manager did not get along in the final years. They started blaming each other for the team's declining on-ice performance.
It does not surprise me that Bowman's version of the story paints Quenneville in a particularly bad light. I'm not going to take Bowman's interpretation as the gospel of what happened that day. To my mind, he could be deflecting criticism by pointing fingers elsewhere.
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