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Post by hsbob on Oct 29, 2021 15:41:04 GMT -6
The president of the team tells his coaching staff to concentrate on hockey.we'll handle this.........the staff shoulda done what at that point? Beach harassed plyers all the time....smaller ones. Q, was the Dam coach. , if he had any balls he would have stood up and said something , but he didn't did he , he cared more about his name on the cup, than Beach's life I sorry but I lost all respect for Q Disobey the higher ups by saying something to who? The police? The press? HR? NOBODY else said a dam thing either,even the ex cop who heard the complaint did nothing other than giving McD a head's up instead of going directly to HR. SB was the Dam GM,he have any balls? He was Q's boss a as was McD. No one else was willing to wreck their career either. Aldredg is the villain here and unlike Mark Crawford,Q never abused anyone,how does the self righteous mob selectively dismiss that? Channel all your indignation and outrage at just one guy here if you want.....lose all respect for anyone else or just the HC? |
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Post by vadarx on Oct 29, 2021 15:41:13 GMT -6
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Post by hsbob on Oct 29, 2021 15:55:32 GMT -6
So Stan blamed Q? That's all he ever did. You're the guy to ask this constantly passed over question. Was it the coach's duty who actually took the complaint from the poor victim to go DIRECTLY to HR and if not,why not? Chevy the ast GM heard everything Q heard and also followed the same 'do your job and let us handle this' orders....this is a very selective assignment of blame IMO. Q also told the press about not having heard anything about this before the report was made public. I think that is probably a reason in Q getting the high-jump. As for your other question, I can't say for certain because I do not know what the NHL's or the Blackhawk's policies would be for what is expected for people not in senior management, but here's my opinion. From what I gather Beach told Vincent who told Gary who told upper management who had the infamous meeting. I don't necessarily think Vincent was wrong, but he could have gone to HR. Vincent telling Beach to see the team psychologist and being essentially mum about HR and the authorities doesn't look good, but it's not heinous IMHO. I think there could be a reasonable expectation that a competent sports psychologist would be better equipped to handle a sexual assault/abuse outcry than anyone else in the organization. Gary was 100% in the wrong, should have gone to HR, should have bypassed upper management, and depending on whether or not he could have been considered a mandatory reporter, should have gone to the authorities. Morally it could be argued that even if he wasn't a mandatory reporter, he should have encouraged Beach to go to the authorities first and foremost. In fact, on my hierarchy of fault on this, Gary is the 2nd worst person in all of this, below Aldrich himself. I think all of senior management severely dropped the ball in that meeting, and as I mentioned in my previous post, a piece of information we don't know is what was the expectation that someone goes around their supervisor. IMHO McD is below Gary at 3rd down in the Hierarchy of Fault. The buck stops with him. Below that, I think everyone in Senior management (including Stan) had an obligation to go above and beyond what their boss said for something of this nature, they could have taken steps to not see this swept under the rug. I don't think Q or Chevy were considered senior management for the record. As I said with Q's position, there might have been mitigating circumstances to him resigning--like his comments to the press before this broke contradicting what the report said, but IMHO it would hinge a lot on his culpability. If he had the power to keep Aldrich and Beach separate, he should have acted on that in my opinion. I don't know if he did have that power though. But like I said, He *did* admit that he owns his share in this, which is a redeeming factor in his favor. Chevy, according to the press release today was not considered senior management, and thus as probably the most junior person in that meeting probably couldn't actually do much--which is what the NHL gave as the reason he could stay. However, I am surprised he wasn't at least censured somewhat. I do expect him to have some statement soon, and I'm hoping it's more along the lines of what Q states and JC stated that what Bowman stated. I am surprised he wasn't let go, but I think others high up know more details than we do. To answer some of the things you've said here and elsewhere: If Hossa, (or others but I'll focus on him) was the one to make some of the boyfriend comments or the "did you like the blowjob" comments, I'd disavow him and probably drop some K-bombs in his name. It doesn't seem like it's in his character, but if he did do that, he deserves all the ire. As for Kane and Toews, the only thing I'm calling for both of them is, the next time they meet the press, to redact/recant their comments about Stan. I'm willing to bet that they both were floored with the report being dropped and possibly were in a denial state but as 30-year old men right now, I think they should own up to it. Beyond that? I have no problems with either on the team, or them keeping their letters. I just think Debrincat should be a full-time A. I never meant to insinuate a classy guy like Big Hoss would ever do the things you and I used as examples and I imagine you'd agree,I only used what I considered the most respected guy on the team as a 'what if'. Kane and Toews will be shit on over this and I GUARANTEE it's only Kane and Toews even though guys like Boynton and Carcillo? said everyone knew. I guess everyone consists of Q,Kane and Toews because I see everyone else get cover. |
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Post by BigT on Oct 29, 2021 16:09:34 GMT -6
Bob, I wasn’t going to comment. But I feel many don’t know this guys history. He called an opponent’s brother a “fucking retard” on many occasions. The refs finally caught him. Remember that kid that was drafted by Arizona? He did the same exact thing and got expelled by many here and by the world. Beach was a shot stain on every org he was involved with. His euro team no longer wants him. His career is done at 31. He needs to find money. So he literally lets this shit slide for 11 years and decided getting *u* on my back wasn’t cool. So he decides to sue and cash in. Many people are uneducated and think Alldick raped him and threaten his life with a baseball bat. I don’t know anyone who gets oral sex performed on them from a dude with a baseball bat in hand. I talked to my wife’s cousin who’s a very successful person and who’s gay, he said that he would never accept fellatio from a dude that would have a bat in hand!!! Aldrege is a predator and his history says he probably did at minimum coerce or even force himself on Beach but I do think Beach recklessly put himself in a bad position if the booze(under age)and hookers(illegal) story is right and it's in the report. The predator sees his chance to pounce in what's already a sex/booze filled situation. Unless Beach was forced to drink and participate sexually and that's hard to picture. I brought up Beach's past and his actions that night before the incident not to victim shame but to address his believability. A few questions... Could Beach himself have gone to HR or the law if he feels he was attached? Paul Vincent comes across as the hero here and I saw an article that says he feels vindicated........for what? This self righteous,finger pointer is the coach Beach told....did he go directly to HR? Did he call the police? Did he do either after the meeting when told we'll handle this by his superiors.....he did not since it wasn't reported to HR until the finals ended. All Paul Vincent did is make sure everyone knew and implicate them.......he also did nothing after the meeting which is what everyone else did because they were told to. Bob, you bring up valid points here. I apologize to everyone if I come off brash or a pure asshole. So I’m sorry. I fully understand people are labeling Beach the victim here. The report, says other wise. To me at least. I don’t understand why there’s not more of a question period here before they sewer everyone. At first it sound like Alldick lured Beach to his apartment, forced himself on him, and told him he’d break his legs if he said anything. Now it’s coming out differently. Is the media that big of scumbags where no one will call out what’s in the report? Why hasn’t the media asked Beach about the incidents in there about a hooker and drinking and playing strip poker? I was raised to ask questions. And I think people should be asking them before they label the guy the victim of all victims. Plus it is very convenient that the guys career is over and he has no real source of income. Is Alldick a horrendous human? Yes. But as Bob pointed out, Vincent is labeled a hero and he didn’t do that much. He failed on the same level as Q or even Bowman. If the players are next. And I can see it coming. I hope they shift gears and say Stan made them keep quiet. This is 10 fuckin years ago. 10 fuckin years. And you wanna sewer people over accusations? People are too quick to judge. The report says something different than what’s being reported. Enough said!!! |
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Post by shooter61 on Oct 29, 2021 16:09:38 GMT -6
you don't really believe that do you , who do you think HR answers too, It would have ended up in the same room, and the same win at all costs McD , Bowman and Q would have put it on the back burner You don't really believe that do you? This is still a small,family owned business,it's impossible to believe Rocky didn't know. Why do you want to absolve the ast GM who heard the same things Q did and also did nothing? Why absolve the only coach the victim actually told,also the senior member of he staff as far as age and experience who didn't go directly to HR? He also did nothing and he knew the MOST. It doesn't mention chevy as being in the room, why is it impossible that Rocky didn't know, none of the players knew ,we know for sure that, Q, Bowman, and McD, knew and they did squat, the ast coach did the most amongst all of them, he brought it to every ones attention , it was Q and McD that wanted to wait till the playoffs were done, I'm not letting anyone off the hook, including the Captain, who did nothing either , Oh, but he didn't know, Lets face it, they all knew as far as I'm concerned. that includes the players, |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 29, 2021 16:22:48 GMT -6
You don't really believe that do you? This is still a small,family owned business,it's impossible to believe Rocky didn't know. Why do you want to absolve the ast GM who heard the same things Q did and also did nothing? Why absolve the only coach the victim actually told,also the senior member of he staff as far as age and experience who didn't go directly to HR? He also did nothing and he knew the MOST. It doesn't mention chevy as being in the room, why is it impossible that Rocky didn't know, none of the players knew ,we know for sure that, Q, Bowman, and McD, knew and they did squat, the ast coach did the most amongst all of them, he brought it to every ones attention , it was Q and McD that wanted to wait till the playoffs were done, I'm not letting anyone off the hook, including the Captain, who did nothing either , Oh, but he didn't know, Lets face it, they all knew as far as I'm concerned. that includes the players, We can keep goin' round n round until we miss the Shit-stain on ice lose another one but you again blame only Q,McD and Toews just as the report wanted us to. The ast coach who did the most? All Vincent the finger pointer did with his law enforcement backround and decades of experience was give McD a heads up instead of going directly to HR after getting the ONLY first hand account from the victim himself. He also did nothing afterward because he also followed orders. What should the 21yro Toews have done? Why not ask this of the older veterans on the roster you once again selectively leave out. |
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Post by shooter61 on Oct 29, 2021 16:26:01 GMT -6
I'm done with this , you are just picking apart and twisting what I say to fit your narrative, ..... Guess you didn't read this , or chose not to ,,,,,,Lets face it, they all knew as far as I'm concerned. that includes the players,
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Post by LordKOTL on Oct 29, 2021 16:31:30 GMT -6
Q also told the press about not having heard anything about this before the report was made public. I think that is probably a reason in Q getting the high-jump. As for your other question, I can't say for certain because I do not know what the NHL's or the Blackhawk's policies would be for what is expected for people not in senior management, but here's my opinion. From what I gather Beach told Vincent who told Gary who told upper management who had the infamous meeting. I don't necessarily think Vincent was wrong, but he could have gone to HR. Vincent telling Beach to see the team psychologist and being essentially mum about HR and the authorities doesn't look good, but it's not heinous IMHO. I think there could be a reasonable expectation that a competent sports psychologist would be better equipped to handle a sexual assault/abuse outcry than anyone else in the organization. Gary was 100% in the wrong, should have gone to HR, should have bypassed upper management, and depending on whether or not he could have been considered a mandatory reporter, should have gone to the authorities. Morally it could be argued that even if he wasn't a mandatory reporter, he should have encouraged Beach to go to the authorities first and foremost. In fact, on my hierarchy of fault on this, Gary is the 2nd worst person in all of this, below Aldrich himself. I think all of senior management severely dropped the ball in that meeting, and as I mentioned in my previous post, a piece of information we don't know is what was the expectation that someone goes around their supervisor. IMHO McD is below Gary at 3rd down in the Hierarchy of Fault. The buck stops with him. Below that, I think everyone in Senior management (including Stan) had an obligation to go above and beyond what their boss said for something of this nature, they could have taken steps to not see this swept under the rug. I don't think Q or Chevy were considered senior management for the record. As I said with Q's position, there might have been mitigating circumstances to him resigning--like his comments to the press before this broke contradicting what the report said, but IMHO it would hinge a lot on his culpability. If he had the power to keep Aldrich and Beach separate, he should have acted on that in my opinion. I don't know if he did have that power though. But like I said, He *did* admit that he owns his share in this, which is a redeeming factor in his favor. Chevy, according to the press release today was not considered senior management, and thus as probably the most junior person in that meeting probably couldn't actually do much--which is what the NHL gave as the reason he could stay. However, I am surprised he wasn't at least censured somewhat. I do expect him to have some statement soon, and I'm hoping it's more along the lines of what Q states and JC stated that what Bowman stated. I am surprised he wasn't let go, but I think others high up know more details than we do. To answer some of the things you've said here and elsewhere: If Hossa, (or others but I'll focus on him) was the one to make some of the boyfriend comments or the "did you like the blowjob" comments, I'd disavow him and probably drop some K-bombs in his name. It doesn't seem like it's in his character, but if he did do that, he deserves all the ire. As for Kane and Toews, the only thing I'm calling for both of them is, the next time they meet the press, to redact/recant their comments about Stan. I'm willing to bet that they both were floored with the report being dropped and possibly were in a denial state but as 30-year old men right now, I think they should own up to it. Beyond that? I have no problems with either on the team, or them keeping their letters. I just think Debrincat should be a full-time A. I never meant to insinuate a classy guy like Big Hoss would ever do the things you and I used as examples and I imagine you'd agree,I only used what I considered the most respected guy on the team as a 'what if'. Kane and Toews will be shit on over this and I GUARANTEE it's only Kane and Toews even though guys like Boynton and Carcillo? said everyone knew. I guess everyone consists of Q,Kane and Toews because I see everyone else get cover. There are a fuckton of levels to this, but If I had to go through everyone I knew who was at least peripherally attached to this, I'd end up writing a novel. Ain't nobody got time for that!  I'm also trying to stick as hard to the facts that were disseminated in the report as possible, and my thoughts and feelings I know about it based on my own experiences and info I've gathered in life (i.e. learning stuff via osmosis through my wife), and I've tried to be as clear as possible when I'm stating something that's opinion or stating something that I'm guessing about, rather than painting in a broad brush, or at least explaining my take on something and trying to be dispassionate as much as I can. Although, it's hard to be dispassionate about what Gary did. I understand you used Hossa as an example, but I thought it was a good one for an example because, much like Mikita, nothing much has been said about him that is bad outside the rink (not as bad as Bobby Hull, anyway). So if something came out where Hossa was antagonistic towards Beach it would be a shock. But I think things have to come out as they come out. Kane and Toews were the faces of the franchise. Q was the coach they would be in the limelight for this. Ditto with Keith and he's said his piece on it. I'm curious about Sharp, after all, he was the other A. Ladd's said things about it as well. I don't necessarily thing it warrants a comment unless it's particularly noteworthy. But as I've said before, the players who slung the slurs at beach deserve some censure, but for the most part I don't think any of the players did much wrong. Sure, Kane and Toews could have worded their statements better, but IMHO that's fixable and there is a well-defined explanation that could explain why they said what they said. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Oct 29, 2021 16:32:26 GMT -6
I don't think it was a big problem for Q, at the first meeting, to say he wanted to concentrate on winning the Cup, which was HIS JOB. What the hell was he supposed to do? Advocate that the Hawks forfeit the rest of their games to investigate the allegation? Clearly, the answer is no and so it was ok to keep coaching and let management sort out what to do about Aldrich/Beach. Once the season was over and the Cup won, it gets more complicated and it comes down to whether Q knew that the team did not do the investigation or go to the cops and ask them to investigate. I think both needed to done. But, I am leaning toward saying that it was not Q's job to go to the cops. He couldn't do the investigation on his own. If the team did not follow up, I think he just had to live with that. If the league thought he should have gone to the cops and didn't, then getting him fired was too harsh for that violation.
In addition, if he only wrote a performance evaluation and not a letter of recommendation, there was no reason to fire him. Now, it gets tougher when one considers what LordKOTL brought up and that was Q's recent denial that he knew anything about the incident until he read/or heard about the recent J&B report. When it is shown that he was at the original meeting in 2010 and compare that to his denial, I could see where the league/the Panthers might want to disassociate themselves from Q. Politically speaking, it doesn't look good for him to deny he knew about it back then, when he was at the meeting. So, if he made that recent denial, I could see where firing him was what many owners might have wanted to do. It just doesn't look good and makes it look like he had something to hide. In addition, barely anyone shows up at Panther games anyway, at least when I watch their home games, so the owners might not have wanted to give the locals any more reasons to stay away from their games, so bye-bye Q. But, if he had not made that recent denial, I am thinking there was no obvious reason to have him fired for his involvement in the incident. The worst he did was fail to go to the cops when the team did not. I am not sure that was his job to do that and, even if someone says he could have gone to the cops anyway, I am not sure firing him is the correct punishment for that failure.
By the way, I have no problem with shit canning all the management/suits above Q who did nothing and covered it up. That would include the owner(s) if they knew about the allegation. They, of all people, should have demanded an internal investigation or gone to the cops. If things happened as Beach said they did, there was no way that Aldrich should have remained employed. It does look like he was forced to resign because of the incident, so it appears that management at least got rid of the bad apple, even if they did not investigate any further. They apparently believed Beach enough to force Aldrich to resign. They then could only be blamed for not going to the cops, which they should have done. Just forcing Aldrich to resign was not enough. So, by not going to the cops to save the org's reputation, they did what has justified canning them 10 years later.
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Post by LordKOTL on Oct 29, 2021 16:49:07 GMT -6
I don't think it was a big problem for Q, at the first meeting, to say he wanted to concentrate on winning the Cup, which was HIS JOB. What the hell was he supposed to do? Advocate that the Hawks forfeit the rest of their games to investigate the allegation? Clearly, the answer is no and so it was ok to keep coaching and let management sort out what to do about Aldrich/Beach. Once the season was over and the Cup won, it gets more complicated and it comes down to whether Q knew that the team did not do the investigation or go to the cops and ask them to investigate. I think both needed to done. But, I am leaning toward saying that it was not Q's job to go to the cops. He couldn't do the investigation on his own. If the team did not follow up, I think he just had to live with that. If the league thought he should have gone to the cops and didn't, then getting him fired was too harsh for that violation. In addition, if he only wrote a performance evaluation and not a letter of recommendation, there was no reason to fire him. Now, it gets tougher when one considers what LordKOTL brought up and that was Q's recent denial that he knew anything about the incident until he read/or heard about the recent J&B report. When it is shown that he was at the original meeting in 2010 and compare that to his denial, I could see where the league/the Panthers might want to disassociate themselves from Q. Politically speaking, it doesn't look good for him to deny he knew about it back then, when he was at the meeting. So, if he made that recent denial, I could see where firing him was what many owners might have wanted to do. It just doesn't look good and makes it look like he had something to hide. In addition, barely anyone shows up at Panther games anyway, at least when I watch their home games, so the owners might not have wanted to give the locals any more reasons to stay away from their games, so bye-bye Q. But, if he had not made that recent denial, I am thinking there was no obvious reason to have him fired for his involvement in the incident. The worst he did was fail to go to the cops when the team did not. I am not sure that was his job to do that and, even if someone says he could have gone to the cops anyway, I am not sure firing him is the correct punishment for that failure. By the way, I have no problem with shit canning all the management/suits above Q who did nothing and covered it up. That would include the owner(s) if they knew about the allegation. They, of all people, should have demanded an internal investigation or gone to the cops. If things happened as Beach said they did, there was no way that Aldrich should have remained employed. It does look like he was forced to resign because of the incident, so it appears that management at least got rid of the bad apple, even if they did not investigate any further. They apparently believed Beach enough to force Aldrich to resign. They then could only be blamed for not going to the cops, which they should have done. Just forcing Aldrich to resign was not enough. So, by not going to the cops to save the org's reputation, they did what has justified canning them 10 years later. That's the thing concerning Q, he might have been given the high jump because of the optics on the case--and then one has to ask, why DIDN'T Q be more forthcoming beforehand? It looks bad for him. And as I mentioned before, if Q has the ability to keep Aldrich and Beach separated, he should have and it would NOT have impacted the team in a meaningful way in my opinion. Aldrich on admin leave? Beach released from being a Black ace? I have 100% faith that if either of those happened Q could have come down full force on the players and said to focus on the job at hand, and I do believe the players would have responded. That would have solved an imminent threat and hostile work environment issue. Again, if Q had the ability to do so. I fully recognize that he might not have. If he had to go higher up to do so then yeah, he shouldn't be culpable for that aspect. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 30, 2021 8:14:59 GMT -6
I never meant to insinuate a classy guy like Big Hoss would ever do the things you and I used as examples and I imagine you'd agree,I only used what I considered the most respected guy on the team as a 'what if'. Kane and Toews will be shit on over this and I GUARANTEE it's only Kane and Toews even though guys like Boynton and Carcillo? said everyone knew. I guess everyone consists of Q,Kane and Toews because I see everyone else get cover. There are a fuckton of levels to this, but If I had to go through everyone I knew who was at least peripherally attached to this, I'd end up writing a novel. Ain't nobody got time for that! I'm also trying to stick as hard to the facts that were disseminated in the report as possible, and my thoughts and feelings I know about it based on my own experiences and info I've gathered in life (i.e. learning stuff via osmosis through my wife), and I've tried to be as clear as possible when I'm stating something that's opinion or stating something that I'm guessing about, rather than painting in a broad brush, or at least explaining my take on something and trying to be dispassionate as much as I can. Although, it's hard to be dispassionate about what Gary did. I understand you used Hossa as an example, but I thought it was a good one for an example because, much like Mikita, nothing much has been said about him that is bad outside the rink (not as bad as Bobby Hull, anyway). So if something came out where Hossa was antagonistic towards Beach it would be a shock. But I think things have to come out as they come out. Kane and Toews were the faces of the franchise. Q was the coach they would be in the limelight for this. Ditto with Keith and he's said his piece on it. I'm curious about Sharp, after all, he was the other A. Ladd's said things about it as well. I don't necessarily thing it warrants a comment unless it's particularly noteworthy. But as I've said before, the players who slung the slurs at beach deserve some censure, but for the most part I don't think any of the players did much wrong. Sure, Kane and Toews could have worded their statements better, but IMHO that's fixable and there is a well-defined explanation that could explain why they said what they said. Your first paragraph or two are why I ask you these questions and I always appreciate your responses! My ONLY mention of Hossa as a 'what if' had nothing to do with who allegedly insulted the victim,it was a 'what if' the team's most respected(and deservedly so)veteran also knew and relied on mgnt to do what they said they would so the great player could concentrate on the task at hand. I've asked why guys like Boynton and Sople who claimed everyone knew also did nothing at the time,I don't know for sure who knew but I'm sure these two knew because they admit to knowing. Can't find it now but I saw a Sople interview this morning saying how he supports the victim and he goes on to say he went to mgnt was assured they were handling it and then turned his attention to the ice. Isn't this exactly what Q was told and what he did? Why do the finger pointers like Vincent and the two players get to use "we'll handle this,you worry about your job" as their their explanations for doing nothing? I appreciate your informed reason why Gary was the one who should have immediately went to HR since this was his backround but I still feel Vincent,with his law enforcement backround AND him being the only one with a first hand account could have easily gone to HR immidiately instead of leaving it up to his superiors and his law enforcement experience would have carried TONS of weight if he reported it. Vincent is also the AC the victim trusted enough to confide in,other than finger pointing ten years later,what did Vincent do besides hand it to McD? He said he was infuriated after the meeting.....what more did he do after the infuriating meeting? He followed orders like everybody else after being the only official the victim trusted therefor failing him more than anyone else IMO. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 30, 2021 8:45:13 GMT -6
I don't think it was a big problem for Q, at the first meeting, to say he wanted to concentrate on winning the Cup, which was HIS JOB. What the hell was he supposed to do? Advocate that the Hawks forfeit the rest of their games to investigate the allegation? Clearly, the answer is no and so it was ok to keep coaching and let management sort out what to do about Aldrich/Beach. Once the season was over and the Cup won, it gets more complicated and it comes down to whether Q knew that the team did not do the investigation or go to the cops and ask them to investigate. I think both needed to done. But, I am leaning toward saying that it was not Q's job to go to the cops. He couldn't do the investigation on his own. If the team did not follow up, I think he just had to live with that. If the league thought he should have gone to the cops and didn't, then getting him fired was too harsh for that violation. In addition, if he only wrote a performance evaluation and not a letter of recommendation, there was no reason to fire him. Now, it gets tougher when one considers what LordKOTL brought up and that was Q's recent denial that he knew anything about the incident until he read/or heard about the recent J&B report. When it is shown that he was at the original meeting in 2010 and compare that to his denial, I could see where the league/the Panthers might want to disassociate themselves from Q. Politically speaking, it doesn't look good for him to deny he knew about it back then, when he was at the meeting. So, if he made that recent denial, I could see where firing him was what many owners might have wanted to do. It just doesn't look good and makes it look like he had something to hide. In addition, barely anyone shows up at Panther games anyway, at least when I watch their home games, so the owners might not have wanted to give the locals any more reasons to stay away from their games, so bye-bye Q. But, if he had not made that recent denial, I am thinking there was no obvious reason to have him fired for his involvement in the incident. The worst he did was fail to go to the cops when the team did not. I am not sure that was his job to do that and, even if someone says he could have gone to the cops anyway, I am not sure firing him is the correct punishment for that failure. By the way, I have no problem with shit canning all the management/suits above Q who did nothing and covered it up. That would include the owner(s) if they knew about the allegation. They, of all people, should have demanded an internal investigation or gone to the cops. If things happened as Beach said they did, there was no way that Aldrich should have remained employed. It does look like he was forced to resign because of the incident, so it appears that management at least got rid of the bad apple, even if they did not investigate any further. They apparently believed Beach enough to force Aldrich to resign. They then could only be blamed for not going to the cops, which they should have done. Just forcing Aldrich to resign was not enough. So, by not going to the cops to save the org's reputation, they did what has justified canning them 10 years later. This is a different 'can o worms' all together jack,I've supported Q's explanation that he was told his superiors would handle the situation and to concentrate on his job because even the finger pointers are using the same explanation but saying he knew nothing when he more than likely did is why we saw the league action as you said. However SB also said in his statement that they didn't know the seriousness of the allegations until earlier this year when the suit hit.....I can see how neither is believed about this. If the league took action only because of Q's statement saying he didn't know,then he's probably reinstated next year and since his hand picked assistant Andrew Brunette was appointed 'interim' HC,it could very well be back at the helm in Florida. Will a sullied reputation and a what amounts to nearly full year suspension be enough for some? |
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 30, 2021 9:56:39 GMT -6
I also have a couple questions that come to mind. And these are with the assumptions that McDonuts was shielding the Wirtz's from details. Plausible deniability.
McD told everyone at the meeting that this will be dealt with, so go about regular business of hockey so Q and staff went about their business and figured it was going to be handled. Now they see that pervert was fired and assumed that it was handled at that point. They may have assumed that McD and upper mgnt dealt with Kyle and pervert to Kyle's satisfaction. If not then Kyle should have gone to the police himself or with his family. The shitstorm that would have followed would be lot less than it is now. And yes the Hawks would come out smelling like a rose IF they had just backed the player in court rather than just bury it. Now they have put a stain on the ORG and the players and coaches during that time. Now was McDumDum also trying to shield perverts father from all this since he was a well respected employee of the Sharks? That didn't work out just 3 years later as pervert went to prison for 9 months.
Now my solution at that time would have been that the pervert should have been dealt with by physical means, beaten the crap out of, by a couple of players. Then say they were helping pervert since he fell down the stairs face first, repeatedly. Very clumsy pervert.
I'm just spitballing some thoughts that go through my mind.
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Oct 30, 2021 12:34:22 GMT -6
It's frustrating how so many people think Beach is a victim, if he truly cared about his career why the hell was he playing strip poker with a hooker and video coach doing drugs and getting drunk? Especially when he was picked as a black ace on a Cup run after he finished his junior career.
Yes Aldrich is a sick PoS and should be in jail but Beach was no angel.
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Post by jacksalmon on Oct 30, 2021 13:09:19 GMT -6
I don't think it was a big problem for Q, at the first meeting, to say he wanted to concentrate on winning the Cup, which was HIS JOB. What the hell was he supposed to do? Advocate that the Hawks forfeit the rest of their games to investigate the allegation? Clearly, the answer is no and so it was ok to keep coaching and let management sort out what to do about Aldrich/Beach. Once the season was over and the Cup won, it gets more complicated and it comes down to whether Q knew that the team did not do the investigation or go to the cops and ask them to investigate. I think both needed to done. But, I am leaning toward saying that it was not Q's job to go to the cops. He couldn't do the investigation on his own. If the team did not follow up, I think he just had to live with that. If the league thought he should have gone to the cops and didn't, then getting him fired was too harsh for that violation. In addition, if he only wrote a performance evaluation and not a letter of recommendation, there was no reason to fire him. Now, it gets tougher when one considers what LordKOTL brought up and that was Q's recent denial that he knew anything about the incident until he read/or heard about the recent J&B report. When it is shown that he was at the original meeting in 2010 and compare that to his denial, I could see where the league/the Panthers might want to disassociate themselves from Q. Politically speaking, it doesn't look good for him to deny he knew about it back then, when he was at the meeting. So, if he made that recent denial, I could see where firing him was what many owners might have wanted to do. It just doesn't look good and makes it look like he had something to hide. In addition, barely anyone shows up at Panther games anyway, at least when I watch their home games, so the owners might not have wanted to give the locals any more reasons to stay away from their games, so bye-bye Q. But, if he had not made that recent denial, I am thinking there was no obvious reason to have him fired for his involvement in the incident. The worst he did was fail to go to the cops when the team did not. I am not sure that was his job to do that and, even if someone says he could have gone to the cops anyway, I am not sure firing him is the correct punishment for that failure. By the way, I have no problem with shit canning all the management/suits above Q who did nothing and covered it up. That would include the owner(s) if they knew about the allegation. They, of all people, should have demanded an internal investigation or gone to the cops. If things happened as Beach said they did, there was no way that Aldrich should have remained employed. It does look like he was forced to resign because of the incident, so it appears that management at least got rid of the bad apple, even if they did not investigate any further. They apparently believed Beach enough to force Aldrich to resign. They then could only be blamed for not going to the cops, which they should have done. Just forcing Aldrich to resign was not enough. So, by not going to the cops to save the org's reputation, they did what has justified canning them 10 years later. This is a different 'can o worms' all together jack,I've supported Q's explanation that he was told his superiors would handle the situation and to concentrate on his job because even the finger pointers are using the same explanation but saying he knew nothing when he more than likely did is why we saw the league action as you said. However SB also said in his statement that they didn't know the seriousness of the allegations until earlier this year when the suit hit.....I can see how neither is believed about this. If the league took action only because of Q's statement saying he didn't know,then he's probably reinstated next year and since his hand picked assistant Andrew Brunette was appointed 'interim' HC,it could very well be back at the helm in Florida. Will a sullied reputation and a what amounts to nearly full year suspension be enough for some? From your questioning me about the letter of recommendation which may have only been a performance evaluation, as we discussed before, what I have seen so far is that Q did not write a letter of recommendation, but only did the evaluation. This would leave him guilty of not going to the cops when no action was taken by the org and recently denying that he knew about the incident back in 2010 when it appears that he was at a meeting when the incident was discussed back then. To me, not going to the cops is no reason to ban a coach from his profession, even if some think he violated some code in not doing so. Being guilty of those two "misdemeanors" does not justify a permanent ban from the NHL. Whether some team owner will want to hire him, including the Panthers, is another story. My guess is that next year, his "crimes" will be forgotten by the hockey public. But, regardless, I think he should be eligible then to be hired. After all, the league has not banned or suspended him, he only resigned of his own accord when he was probably about to be fired. So, I don't think there is any league action that prevents him from being hired by some team, if that is what a team wants to do. I doubt that that team would be the Blackhawks. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Oct 30, 2021 13:18:09 GMT -6
It's frustrating how so many people think Beach is a victim, if he truly cared about his career why the hell was he playing strip poker with a hooker and video coach doing drugs and getting drunk? Especially when he was picked as a black ace on a Cup run after he finished his junior career. Yes Aldrich is a sick PoS and should be in jail but Beach was no angel. Regardless of how much Beach can be blamed for playing with fire, he cannot be blamed for being shot instead of being burned. Beach was not an angel, but Aldrich committed a serious felony and Beach had no reason to expect that. While the team apparently told Aldrich to resign or be fired, once he resigned that took care of the Hawks' internal problem. They could do no more as a team. But, they can be blamed for not reporting the potential commission of a serious felony to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. Instead, they turned a sick predator loose to inflict harm on another victim. From a civil law perspective, it seems pretty clear that Aldrich's Michigan high school victim has a very credible tort claim against the Chicago Blackhawks for not going to the cops with their Aldrich information. There is a direct line between the team's failure to go to the cops and Aldrich's sexual abuse of the Michigan youth. That is exactly why the Blackhawk management had no choice but to resign. They chose to protect the team's image rather than admit that one of theirs had possibly committed a serious felony which justified a thorough law enforcement investigation. The Hawks' had already taken care of their internal problem, but they failed to do what was expected of them in an enlightened society. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 30, 2021 14:59:10 GMT -6
It's frustrating how so many people think Beach is a victim, if he truly cared about his career why the hell was he playing strip poker with a hooker and video coach doing drugs and getting drunk? Especially when he was picked as a black ace on a Cup run after he finished his junior career. Yes Aldrich is a sick PoS and should be in jail but Beach was no angel. Regardless of how much Beach can be blamed for playing with fire, he cannot be blamed for being shot instead of being burned. Beach was not an angel, but Aldrich committed a serious felony and Beach had no reason to expect that. While the team apparently told Aldrich to resign or be fired, once he resigned that took care of the Hawks' internal problem. They could do no more as a team. But, they can be blamed for not reporting the potential commission of a serious felony to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. Instead, they turned a sick predator loose to inflict harm on another victim. From a civil law perspective, it seems pretty clear that Aldrich's Michigan high school victim has a very credible tort claim against the Chicago Blackhawks for not going to the cops with their Aldrich information. There is a direct line between the team's failure to go to the cops and Aldrich's sexual abuse of the Michigan youth. That is exactly why the Blackhawk management had no choice but to resign. They chose to protect the team's image rather than admit that one of theirs had possibly committed a serious felony which justified a thorough law enforcement investigation. The Hawks' had already taken care of their internal problem, but they failed to do what was expected of them in an enlightened society. Are you also asking the Univ. of Miami-Ohio the same question? He got fired there for "inappropriate behavior" with 2 young college hockey players. They never reported this either to the police. Then he went to that Michigan high school. |
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Post by squishy24 on Oct 30, 2021 17:21:46 GMT -6
It's frustrating how so many people think Beach is a victim, if he truly cared about his career why the hell was he playing strip poker with a hooker and video coach doing drugs and getting drunk? Especially when he was picked as a black ace on a Cup run after he finished his junior career. Yes Aldrich is a sick PoS and should be in jail but Beach was no angel. this was mentioned before, another unfortunate mistake is no one challenging Beach's story. Everyone involved have all "fell on the sword", getting fired, resigning, punishing themselves. If they chose to challenge Beach's story then their careers and reputations might still be intact. Instead they all look guilty of wrongdoing and Beach word is gospel |
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Post by mvr on Oct 30, 2021 18:37:55 GMT -6
There are some important details we will never really know.
First, how detailed was management's understanding about the Beach accusations?
Thanks to the report, we now know exactly what Beach alleged happened, but what was known 11 years ago and by whom? What details did Beach pass along to Vincent at the time? Was Beach as forthcoming then as he is now?
As stories make their way around a room, details get added and left out. Did Vincent relay the full story to management? The wrong choice of words can soften or weaken intended impact. The term "sexual assault" is so broad in its definition as to be almost meaningless.
Second, how clearly were roles assigned at the meeting?
When McD. allegedly told the coach and the others he would "handle the situation," how was everyone to interpret what that meant? Did it mean he would conduct a private investigation on his own or call in the police? Did it mean that the team would delay taking any action until after the playoffs? Do we know for certain that this plan of action was agreed by all?
Another interpretation is that everyone involved (unfortunately and without what we know now in hindsight) believed Beach was lying. The on-ice staff was busy preparing for the cup run, and they considered Beech's immaturity as a nuisance.
McD. told everyone not to get distracted from the task at hand; he would follow up and make the necessary inquiries.
When nothing happened, the coaching staff likely interpreted Aldrich's continued employment as a signal that the investigators had determined that Beach was lying. Nobody asked questions, but that's not surprising all things considered.
I suspect this is more likely the real story. This is not some big "cover up" by the team. It is a tragedy similar to the old fable about "the boy who cried wolf."
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Post by mvr on Oct 30, 2021 18:49:49 GMT -6
Why is everyone "involved" (other than Bowman perhaps) so willingly falling on the sword?
They feel terrible about the situation. They are haunted with guilt. If any had been more assertive, there would be no other victims.
It just not seem worth it to put up a fight. People's minds are already made up.
For years, nobody believed Beech. They thought he was a problem and likely treated him unfairly. Now they have to face the reality that they were largely wrong about the kid. It must feel awful to live with this.
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Post by nighbor on Oct 30, 2021 19:08:12 GMT -6
Vincent is seen as a hero but is he. Beach went to him so I would think they would have kept in touch so Vincent would have known nothing was done. In a situation like this who knew would have been on a need to know basis. Who would need to know more than all the people in that room. The people in the room did not agree to keep it under raps forever but until the end of the playoffs. After the playoffs if those individuals took action they would still be employed. This story did not just affect Kyle Beach and Brad Aldrich but the 23 man roster, the Black Aces, innocent coaches, trainers, equipment personnel and stadium employees and their rights deserved to be also taken under consideration. If this story broke in the midst of the payoffs it would have become a circus going over and over the same questions. Toews and Kane just made statements and instead of believing them perople are accusing them of lying. People are saying without proof that the players had to know. There are many instances of woman being abused by their spouse and only discovered after their violent death. Beach earned a reputation for being a tough player so he is not going to come into a dressing room or stand on top of the United Center proudly saying I GOT A BLOW JOB FROM ALDRICH. Like the Blackhawks he was going to hide it.
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Post by mvr on Oct 30, 2021 19:32:15 GMT -6
How did Vincent word the story to upper management?
Who came up with the phrase, "tried to get under the sheets"? Does that wording not seem to minimize the assault?
Somewhere along the communication line, the events surrounding the story were softened. Vincent believed Beech, but others who heard the story later on did not. By the time the story reached the meeting room, the context of the events being discussed had changed. The audience receiving the news then did not take the event seriously enough to respond correctly.
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 30, 2021 21:11:01 GMT -6
Does this open the door for Q coming back to the Hawks next year?
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Post by jacksalmon on Oct 30, 2021 23:40:15 GMT -6
Regardless of how much Beach can be blamed for playing with fire, he cannot be blamed for being shot instead of being burned. Beach was not an angel, but Aldrich committed a serious felony and Beach had no reason to expect that. While the team apparently told Aldrich to resign or be fired, once he resigned that took care of the Hawks' internal problem. They could do no more as a team. But, they can be blamed for not reporting the potential commission of a serious felony to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. Instead, they turned a sick predator loose to inflict harm on another victim. From a civil law perspective, it seems pretty clear that Aldrich's Michigan high school victim has a very credible tort claim against the Chicago Blackhawks for not going to the cops with their Aldrich information. There is a direct line between the team's failure to go to the cops and Aldrich's sexual abuse of the Michigan youth. That is exactly why the Blackhawk management had no choice but to resign. They chose to protect the team's image rather than admit that one of theirs had possibly committed a serious felony which justified a thorough law enforcement investigation. The Hawks' had already taken care of their internal problem, but they failed to do what was expected of them in an enlightened society. Are you also asking the Univ. of Miami-Ohio the same question? He got fired there for "inappropriate behavior" with 2 young college hockey players. They never reported this either to the police. Then he went to that Michigan high school. Hell yes, let the Univ. of Miami-Ohio be a co-defendant with the Hawks. I have no problem with that. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Oct 31, 2021 8:18:41 GMT -6
Are you also asking the Univ. of Miami-Ohio the same question? He got fired there for "inappropriate behavior" with 2 young college hockey players. They never reported this either to the police. Then he went to that Michigan high school. Hell yes, let the Univ. of Miami-Ohio be a co-defendant with the Hawks. I have no problem with that. So far the Hawks have done nothing criminal as far as the law goes. You can argue unethical, immoral maybe, but not criminal. |
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Post by jacksalmon on Oct 31, 2021 8:55:15 GMT -6
Hell yes, let the Univ. of Miami-Ohio be a co-defendant with the Hawks. I have no problem with that. So far the Hawks have done nothing criminal as far as the law goes. You can argue unethical, immoral maybe, but not criminal. I am not saying that the Hawks (either Chicago or Miami) did anything criminal. I posted that the Michigan victim might have a civil case against Chicago for not going to the cops with the Aldrich info. You asked me if Univ of Miami would also be to blame because they did not go to the cops with what they knew about Beach. I said that they could be co-defendants with Chicago in a civil case by the young Michigan victim. I did not say that either Hawk org should or could be criminally prosecuted and I don't think they could be. Even the civil case, while it has potential, would be subject to the question of whether Chicago or Miami going to the cops with what they knew about Beach would have resulted in a conviction or enough of a mess for Beach that he never would have been hired by the Michigan high school and thus the young kid would not have been victimized. P.S. To show you how behind I am, I just found out that the Michigan victim has sued the Hawks and the latter has moved to dismiss it saying they were not required to go to the cops under Illinois law, among other things. I suspect the issue will be not what was required by Illinois law, but what a reasonable person would have done under the circumstances. |
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Post by BigT on Oct 31, 2021 9:04:23 GMT -6
It's frustrating how so many people think Beach is a victim, if he truly cared about his career why the hell was he playing strip poker with a hooker and video coach doing drugs and getting drunk? Especially when he was picked as a black ace on a Cup run after he finished his junior career. Yes Aldrich is a sick PoS and should be in jail but Beach was no angel. Thank you. Thank you. I’ve said before and I’ll say it again. As a parent I would not like to hear this about any of my kids. My job as a parent is to NOT be my child’s best friend and teach them how to be an adult. I’m not saying Beach’s parents are bad. By no means. What I’m saying is if my young adult children put themselves in a shit situation, I’ll tell them to walk it off. Put your tail between your legs and limp home. Yes I’ll be mad. But we cannot live in a world where “it’s easy to blame yourself, but it’s even easier to blame someone else”. And I think that is the case here. Beach put himself in a shitty situation and he regrets it. Horribly. So instead of wondering what he could a done better, he’s looking for a pay day. I for one am actually happy that the Hawks have still requested for this to be thrown out of court. I think they should play hard hall and give him one year of a players league minimum salary at that time. If he won’t accept it, too bad. This is where he’s gonna play the victim role better than he played his role on the ice. He’s probably seeking a lotto winnings. Probably 15-20 million. This is where scumbag lawyers promise you everything and when he doesn’t get it, he’s gonna owe this lawyer a good chunk and end up bankrupt. Best case for the guy. Is he gets a position within the NHL, that pays him 250 k per year, and it’s just a figure head position that helps bring awareness to sexual abuse and other types of abuse. The Hawks fine alone pays for 8 years of that. They can give him a comfy job for the next 25 years and then cut ties with him. That would be the best case for him!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 31, 2021 10:16:35 GMT -6
This is a different 'can o worms' all together jack,I've supported Q's explanation that he was told his superiors would handle the situation and to concentrate on his job because even the finger pointers are using the same explanation but saying he knew nothing when he more than likely did is why we saw the league action as you said. However SB also said in his statement that they didn't know the seriousness of the allegations until earlier this year when the suit hit.....I can see how neither is believed about this. If the league took action only because of Q's statement saying he didn't know,then he's probably reinstated next year and since his hand picked assistant Andrew Brunette was appointed 'interim' HC,it could very well be back at the helm in Florida. Will a sullied reputation and a what amounts to nearly full year suspension be enough for some? From your questioning me about the letter of recommendation which may have only been a performance evaluation, as we discussed before, what I have seen so far is that Q did not write a letter of recommendation, but only did the evaluation. This would leave him guilty of not going to the cops when no action was taken by the org and recently denying that he knew about the incident back in 2010 when it appears that he was at a meeting when the incident was discussed back then. To me, not going to the cops is no reason to ban a coach from his profession, even if some think he violated some code in not doing so. Being guilty of those two "misdemeanors" does not justify a permanent ban from the NHL. Whether some team owner will want to hire him, including the Panthers, is another story. My guess is that next year, his "crimes" will be forgotten by the hockey public. But, regardless, I think he should be eligible then to be hired. After all, the league has not banned or suspended him, he only resigned of his own accord when he was probably about to be fired. So, I don't think there is any league action that prevents him from being hired by some team, if that is what a team wants to do. I doubt that that team would be the Blackhawks. Like I said jack,it looks like Q lied about what he knew in a recent interview 11 years after the fact and he's paid a high price for it but let's discuss 'going to the cops'. Paul Vincent was a former cop and the AC who got the actual first hand account,if he personally heard the allegation and didn't go to the cops himself,how does anyone else? |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 31, 2021 10:18:44 GMT -6
Regardless of how much Beach can be blamed for playing with fire, he cannot be blamed for being shot instead of being burned. Beach was not an angel, but Aldrich committed a serious felony and Beach had no reason to expect that. While the team apparently told Aldrich to resign or be fired, once he resigned that took care of the Hawks' internal problem. They could do no more as a team. But, they can be blamed for not reporting the potential commission of a serious felony to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. Instead, they turned a sick predator loose to inflict harm on another victim. From a civil law perspective, it seems pretty clear that Aldrich's Michigan high school victim has a very credible tort claim against the Chicago Blackhawks for not going to the cops with their Aldrich information. There is a direct line between the team's failure to go to the cops and Aldrich's sexual abuse of the Michigan youth. That is exactly why the Blackhawk management had no choice but to resign. They chose to protect the team's image rather than admit that one of theirs had possibly committed a serious felony which justified a thorough law enforcement investigation. The Hawks' had already taken care of their internal problem, but they failed to do what was expected of them in an enlightened society. Are you also asking the Univ. of Miami-Ohio the same question? He got fired there for "inappropriate behavior" with 2 young college hockey players. They never reported this either to the police. Then he went to that Michigan high school. ND was also sandwiched in there and also did nothing. |
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Post by hsbob on Oct 31, 2021 10:21:50 GMT -6
It's frustrating how so many people think Beach is a victim, if he truly cared about his career why the hell was he playing strip poker with a hooker and video coach doing drugs and getting drunk? Especially when he was picked as a black ace on a Cup run after he finished his junior career. Yes Aldrich is a sick PoS and should be in jail but Beach was no angel. this was mentioned before, another unfortunate mistake is no one challenging Beach's story. Everyone involved have all "fell on the sword", getting fired, resigning, punishing themselves. If they chose to challenge Beach's story then their careers and reputations might still be intact. Instead they all look guilty of wrongdoing and Beach word is gospel IMO,one wrong word about the victim's past or his behavior on the night in question would be the worst possible optic and would be labeled victim blaming at this point,I doubt the league would have gone along. |
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