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Post by OldTimeHawky on Nov 19, 2021 7:36:01 GMT -6
Seth Jones got his 300th point with his goal vs the Kraken. It sucked giving up the pick that landed Mctavish but if the Hawks keep surging the pick the Jackets get next season won't be a 10 pick, and Jones is a big upgrade figuratively and literally over Boqvist. Sillinger? I'd be even more pissed if we gave up McTavish for Jones! That's right, I knew it was a name of an old NHLer, wrong one. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 19, 2021 9:41:08 GMT -6
Seth Jones got his 300th point with his goal vs the Kraken. It sucked giving up the pick that landed Sillinger but if the Hawks keep surging the pick the Jackets get next season won't be a 10 pick, and Jones is a big upgrade figuratively and literally over Boqvist. I said I thought the team could have spent another year rebuilding and then sign Jones w/o giving up the assets too but I liked the acquisition in general. He's a #1 IMO and he's putin' up points like crazy on a low scoring team,he looks TONS better defensively since the coaching change and he's skatin' the puck out more and joining the rush more.....Kane notices that. Jones could end up with a BIG offensive year. It looks like all the 'next' #1's SB drafted are far from it so.....how else do we get a #1? |
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Post by T-man2010 on Nov 19, 2021 10:49:45 GMT -6
Seth Jones got his 300th point with his goal vs the Kraken. It sucked giving up the pick that landed Sillinger but if the Hawks keep surging the pick the Jackets get next season won't be a 10 pick, and Jones is a big upgrade figuratively and literally over Boqvist. I said I thought the team could have spent another year rebuilding and then sign Jones w/o giving up the assets too but I liked the acquisition in general. He's a #1 IMO and he's putin' up points like crazy on a low scoring team,he looks TONS better defensively since the coaching change and he's skatin' the puck out more and joining the rush more.....Kane notices that. Jones could end up with a BIG offensive year. It looks like all the 'next' #1's SB drafted are far from it so..... how else do we get a #1? By being #32 for several years first. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 19, 2021 18:06:59 GMT -6
I said I thought the team could have spent another year rebuilding and then sign Jones w/o giving up the assets too but I liked the acquisition in general. He's a #1 IMO and he's putin' up points like crazy on a low scoring team,he looks TONS better defensively since the coaching change and he's skatin' the puck out more and joining the rush more.....Kane notices that. Jones could end up with a BIG offensive year. It looks like all the 'next' #1's SB drafted are far from it so..... how else do we get a #1? By being #32 for several years first. Are you saying a first overall is guaranteed to be a #1 D-man?  |
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Post by mvr on Nov 19, 2021 18:29:38 GMT -6
Top-end number-one defencemen are ridiculously difficult to find. There are really only 10-12 of them in the game. All contenders need one to be successful.
The good ones play close to half the game. They carry the team offensively, and they play in all the shutdown situations.
Jones is a legit number-one guy. Clearly, he started the season roughly as he adjusted to new linemates and a new city, But he is settling in nicely, and the Hawks are benefitting from his game.
Jones can play in all situations. He is big and physical. He can skate. He can play the angles. As he gets more comfortable, he will get even better.
Bowman made a wise decision to get him here and lock him up. Sure, it is possible, though not certain, that he gave up a couple of valuable pieces to get him. But the likelihood that Columbus finds a number-one core type defenceman in the trade is low.
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Post by mvr on Nov 19, 2021 18:41:36 GMT -6
Cup winners over the last decade and a half.....
What unites them. Every one without exception had a number one core defenceman
Tampa Bay Hedman
Washington Carlson
St. Louis. Pieterangelo
Chicago - Keith
Pittsburgh - Letang
LA - Doughty
Boston - Chara
Anaheim - Niedermeyer and Pronger
Detroit - Lidstrom
Perhaps the last cup winner without one was Carolina.
To my mind, this is why teams like the Maple Leafs and the Oilers are not serious Contenders. They have good defensemen, but no core number one guy.
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Post by T-man2010 on Nov 19, 2021 19:34:39 GMT -6
By being #32 for several years first. Are you saying a first overall is guaranteed to be a #1 D-man? I suppose if a Hedman or Ekblad is available unless a Kane or McDavid type comes along first. |
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Post by BigT on Nov 19, 2021 22:39:24 GMT -6
Cup winners over the last decade and a half..... What unites them. Every one without exception had a number one core defenceman Tampa Bay Hedman Washington Carlson St. Louis. Pieterangelo Chicago - Keith Pittsburgh - Letang LA - Doughty Boston - Chara Anaheim - Niedermeyer and Pronger Detroit - Lidstrom Perhaps the last cup winner without one was Carolina. To my mind, this is why teams like the Maple Leafs and the Oilers are not serious Contenders. They have good defensemen, but no core number one guy. I fully agree. On the old boards and here I posted the last 30 Cup winners and they all had a Dman that was either a Norris trophy winner or runner up. Need that top Dman!!! |
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Post by vadarx on Nov 19, 2021 23:38:07 GMT -6
Top-end number-one defencemen are ridiculously difficult to find. There are really only 10-12 of them in the game. All contenders need one to be successful. The good ones play close to half the game. They carry the team offensively, and they play in all the shutdown situations. Jones is a legit number-one guy. Clearly, he started the season roughly as he adjusted to new linemates and a new city, But he is settling in nicely, and the Hawks are benefitting from his game. Jones can play in all situations. He is big and physical. He can skate. He can play the angles. As he gets more comfortable, he will get even better. Bowman made a wise decision to get him here and lock him up. Sure, it is possible, though not certain, that he gave up a couple of valuable pieces to get him. But the likelihood that Columbus finds a number-one core type defenceman in the trade is low. I cannot (and did not at the time of the trade) disagree with your assessment of Jones. he is a number 1 dman in the NHL. no question... ... the problem I had (and still have) was/is whether making the trade was prudent or necessary at the time it was made. the team is likely years from contending. so, while having a legit number 1 guy is great now, will he still be the legit number 1 guy in 3-5 years when the team has been rebuilt? does the trading of the picks actually hurt the rebuild effort, thereby making the making it less likely it is done in a timely manner and therefore making it likely he is even older when it is done (and thus making it less likely he is a legit number 1 d when it happens)? Bowman made that trade because he thought we were a number 1 guy away from contending in the next season or 2, otherwise he doesn't make that trade. does anyone here actually think that is likely? I'd love to say that I do, as I would like very much to be enjoying playoff runs again, but I have a hard time seeing it. I hope I am wrong, but... again, love the player. glad he is on our team. I just have to question the idea that the trade was worth stunting the rebuild when it is more likely that he will no longer the player we need him to be once the rebuild is finished. it also still boggles my mind we had to give up 2 first rounders for him when the jackets had almost no leverage. the 2021 1st (rather than swapping 1sts), Boqvist (a top ten pick), and a 2nd or even 2 2nds should have been plenty. imo, anyway..... |
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Post by BigT on Nov 20, 2021 7:34:34 GMT -6
Top-end number-one defencemen are ridiculously difficult to find. There are really only 10-12 of them in the game. All contenders need one to be successful. The good ones play close to half the game. They carry the team offensively, and they play in all the shutdown situations. Jones is a legit number-one guy. Clearly, he started the season roughly as he adjusted to new linemates and a new city, But he is settling in nicely, and the Hawks are benefitting from his game. Jones can play in all situations. He is big and physical. He can skate. He can play the angles. As he gets more comfortable, he will get even better. Bowman made a wise decision to get him here and lock him up. Sure, it is possible, though not certain, that he gave up a couple of valuable pieces to get him. But the likelihood that Columbus finds a number-one core type defenceman in the trade is low. I cannot (and did not at the time of the trade) disagree with your assessment of Jones. he is a number 1 dman in the NHL. no question... ... the problem I had (and still have) was/is whether making the trade was prudent or necessary at the time it was made. the team is likely years from contending. so, while having a legit number 1 guy is great now, will he still be the legit number 1 guy in 3-5 years when the team has been rebuilt? does the trading of the picks actually hurt the rebuild effort, thereby making the making it less likely it is done in a timely manner and therefore making it likely he is even older when it is done (and thus making it less likely he is a legit number 1 d when it happens)? Bowman made that trade because he thought we were a number 1 guy away from contending in the next season or 2, otherwise he doesn't make that trade. does anyone here actually think that is likely? I'd love to say that I do, as I would like very much to be enjoying playoff runs again, but I have a hard time seeing it. I hope I am wrong, but... again, love the player. glad he is on our team. I just have to question the idea that the trade was worth stunting the rebuild when it is more likely that he will no longer the player we need him to be once the rebuild is finished. it also still boggles my mind we had to give up 2 first rounders for him when the jackets had almost no leverage. the 2021 1st (rather than swapping 1sts), Boqvist (a top ten pick), and a 2nd or even 2 2nds should have been plenty. imo, anyway..... Right now. This is why I’d ask Toews and Kane to be moved. I’d try and trade all spare parts for picks and prospects. I’d explain this to Jones. I’d keep him and build around him over the next 2 years. I think with all the prospects/young players and picks brought in, the team would be right where it needs to be in 2 years. Then I’d have Toews and Kane brought back in when they’re UFA. Probably save from their current 10.5. Maybe around 8. Cap should be going up by then. Especially with this new ESPN deal. There would be massive amounts of cap space left to really load up for a couple years. Hawks have a position here to make some real moves. All I’d keep is Dcat, Strome, Jones, Dach, and a bunch of the young kids. We only have two more contracts at the moment to retain salary due to Olli Maatta. But Toews and Kane can be dealt at seasons end. See if Flower would be dealt to a contender and retain half. His deal is only one year so he and Maatta deals would be up. In the off-season we’d have 3 contracts we could retain salary on. Toews, Kane and I’d try and move out one of Murphy or even McCabe. I think retaining salary on all of them gets them moved. For Kane you’d get a kings ransom. I still believe NYR would love him to play on that team. I believe they’d even give up Lafreniere to have him. Especially at half price. Even if a piece had to go back the other way like a 2nd rounder and a lower level prospect. Toews could end up in Colorado. They’ve got a litany of prospects still like Byram and Newhook. Retaining half should get one of them, maybe even both. If Colorado fails to win it all this year, they’ll be in panic mode. And Toews may be the piece they desire. Trade Toews, Beaudin for Newhook and Byram. Hawks may even have to take back a contract to give more relief, like Kadri. Then I’d shop Kubalik. I think a mid first rounder could be a reasonable deal for him, possibly more. Probably even a decent prospect. I feel the team could be rebuilt in two years and have a litany of cap space to move forward and still have Jones!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 20, 2021 8:15:16 GMT -6
Are you saying a first overall is guaranteed to be a #1 D-man? I suppose if a Hedman or Ekblad is available unless a Kane or McDavid type comes along first. You gotta admit those are rare occurrences though......no? |
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Post by mvr on Nov 20, 2021 9:30:17 GMT -6
I am not at all interested in a full tear down. The approach typically does not work in this sport.
Instead, I would be looking to capitalize on situations when they become available.
To my eyes, Bowman finally seemed to be getting the hang of things in the past couple of years (after a dismal job the previous several). I liked every move he made last summer and most of them the previous year as well.
The key to the approach is to be flexible. Do not plan ahead or have a "vision." Scour the market. Take advantage of what is out there to make immediate improvements.
Right now, the team has most of the pieces it needs on defence. What is lacking a true number 2 defenceman. If one becomes available, all the other players slot into their appropriate places.
At forward, the most pressing need is a physical defense first forward to play in the top six.
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Post by T-man2010 on Nov 20, 2021 9:42:09 GMT -6
I suppose if a Hedman or Ekblad is available unless a Kane or McDavid type comes along first. You gotta admit those are rare occurrences though......no? That's my point, need several years at #32 to get real players. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 20, 2021 11:24:25 GMT -6
I am not at all interested in a full tear down. The approach typically does not work in this sport. Instead, I would be looking to capitalize on situations when they become available. To my eyes, Bowman finally seemed to be getting the hang of things in the past couple of years (after a dismal job the previous several). I liked every move he made last summer and most of them the previous year as well. The key to the approach is to be flexible. Do not plan ahead or have a "vision." Scour the market. Take advantage of what is out there to make immediate improvements. Right now, the team has most of the pieces it needs on defence. What is lacking a true number 2 defenceman. If one becomes available, all the other players slot into their appropriate places. At forward, the most pressing need is a physical defense first forward to play in the top six. Mostly agree but I'll always consider Joker/NOlander an awful trade and this Borgstrom kid(if 24 is still a kid)has to be MUCH better to justify Brent 'buyout' Connolly......no? Trading for and giving up anything for Maata(4M)and de HAAN(4.6) while the Habs signed Chairot for 3.5M as an URA the same summer was a mistake and a set back IMO. Taking on all of a terribly damaged Shaw's 3.9M for 3 years and giving up a 2nd and a 3rd to boot is actually worse than Maata or de HAAN to be honest and we're still payin' all three one way or the other. Other than outbidding everyone for Jones and MAF,what are the other successes in your opinion? I do like Jones as a true #1 as you said and I like McCabe too......I'd like him a lot more for 2.5-3M though. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 20, 2021 11:25:36 GMT -6
You gotta admit those are rare occurrences though......no? That's my point, need several years at #32 to get real players. But even then,how many times do we se the 32nd best record NOT get the #1 pick? |
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Post by T-man2010 on Nov 20, 2021 11:42:37 GMT -6
That's my point, need several years at #32 to get real players. But even then,how many times do we se the 32nd best record NOT get the #1 pick? Don't always need the #1 pick, top 3 a couple times could work. Did before with Kane at #1 and Toews at #3 |
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Post by mvr on Nov 20, 2021 15:49:12 GMT -6
Hsbob
I really like Stillman. He was also part of the Borgstrom trade. I think adding MA Fleury for nothing was a good move. Tyler Johnson plus a second for Brent Seabrook was also smart asset allocation. The Keith trade for Caleb Jones and pick was more than what I expected. I liked the Kalynuk signing. Trading a late pick for Kubabik also was a good move.
Bowman wasted a half decade trying to demonstrate how much smarter he was than everyone else. He had to justify firing a Hall of Fame coach.
But in fairness, he did change his tune in his last couple of years. The change in approach at the draft table was a welcome development (especially the sudden emphasis on size). Losing the Jokerman was not a big deal to my mind and worth the gamble for the disappointing Nylander. Neither is much of a difference maker. Shaw obviously did not work out, but I have to admit, i liked the acquisition at the time. Maata and DeHaan cost the team little but wasted cap space and did fill in roster spots in areas of need.
You can't win them all.
Don't get me wrong. I am very glad the guy is gone.
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Nov 20, 2021 16:46:52 GMT -6
Hfbob I really like Stillman. He was also part of the Borgstrom trade. I think adding MA Fleury for nothing was a good move. Tyler Johnson plus a second for Brent Seabrook was also smart asset allocation. The Keith trade for Caleb Jones and pick was more than what I expected. I liked the Kalynuk signing. Trading a late pick for Kubabik also was a good move. Bowman wasted a half decade trying to demonstrate how much smarter he was than everyone else. He had to justify firing a Hall of Fame coach. But in fairness, he did change his tune in his last couple of years. The change in approach at the draft table was a welcome development (especially the sudden emphasis on size). Losing the Jokerman was not a big deal to my mind and worth the gamble for the disappointing Nylander. Neither is much of a difference maker. Shaw obviously did not work out, but I have to admit, i liked the acquisition at the time. Maata and DeHaan cost the team little but wasted cap space and did fill in roster spots in areas of need. You can't win them all. Don't get me wrong. I am very glad the guy is gone. Bob and I had a few discussions on the "Connelly" trade lol giving up Carlsson and Walmark for Stillman, Borgstrom, and Connelly was a good trade. Yes Connelly makes over 3mill and has 1 more year on his contract but he wasn't a liability when he played and he's now showing a lot of character down in Rockford. Mentoring Reichel is worth the 2+mill cap hit, minus 900k because he was sent down. Walmart is back overseas and Borgstrom is here and looks good in all 3 zones, he's snake bitten for now but he gets shots off in close trying to go upstairs. But Stillman makes this trade a win, he grew up around the NHL and plays smart defensively with a lot of grit. Plus he can handle the puck, his stats don't show it yet but he almost scored some really nice goals driving to the net. And yeah when Stan drafted Dach from the WHL it showed he wanted size, 6'6" Vlasic in the 2nd round then 6'6" Basse added size to the prospect pool at all 3 positions. But yes it's great Bowman is gone, not sure why his dad's still around but at least Stan isn't here. |
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Post by T-man2010 on Nov 20, 2021 16:53:46 GMT -6
Hfbob I really like Stillman. He was also part of the Borgstrom trade. I think adding MA Fleury for nothing was a good move. Tyler Johnson plus a second for Brent Seabrook was also smart asset allocation. The Keith trade for Caleb Jones and pick was more than what I expected. I liked the Kalynuk signing. Trading a late pick for Kubabik also was a good move. Bowman wasted a half decade trying to demonstrate how much smarter he was than everyone else. He had to justify firing a Hall of Fame coach. But in fairness, he did change his tune in his last couple of years. The change in approach at the draft table was a welcome development (especially the sudden emphasis on size). Losing the Jokerman was not a big deal to my mind and worth the gamble for the disappointing Nylander. Neither is much of a difference maker. Shaw obviously did not work out, but I have to admit, i liked the acquisition at the time. Maata and DeHaan cost the team little but wasted cap space and did fill in roster spots in areas of need. You can't win them all. Don't get me wrong. I am very glad the guy is gone. Bob and I had a few discussions on the "Connelly" trade lol giving up Carlsson and Walmark for Stillman, Borgstrom, and Connelly was a good trade. Yes Connelly makes over 3mill and has 1 more year on his contract but he wasn't a liability when he played and he's now showing a lot of character down in Rockford. Mentoring Reichel is worth the 2+mill cap hit, minus 900k because he was sent down. Walmart is back overseas and Borgstrom is here and looks good in all 3 zones, he's snake bitten for now but he gets shots off in close trying to go upstairs. But Stillman makes this trade a win, he grew up around the NHL and plays smart defensively with a lot of grit. Plus he can handle the puck, his stats don't show it yet but he almost scored some really nice goals driving to the net. And yeah when Stan drafted Dach from the WHL it showed he wanted size, 6'6" Vlasic in the 2nd round then 6'6" Basse added size to the prospect pool at all 3 positions. But yes it's great Bowman is gone, not sure why his dad's still around but at least Stan isn't here. Who else is Rocky going to drink with? |
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Post by BigT on Nov 20, 2021 18:38:00 GMT -6
I am not at all interested in a full tear down. The approach typically does not work in this sport. Instead, I would be looking to capitalize on situations when they become available. To my eyes, Bowman finally seemed to be getting the hang of things in the past couple of years (after a dismal job the previous several). I liked every move he made last summer and most of them the previous year as well. The key to the approach is to be flexible. Do not plan ahead or have a "vision." Scour the market. Take advantage of what is out there to make immediate improvements. Right now, the team has most of the pieces it needs on defence. What is lacking a true number 2 defenceman. If one becomes available, all the other players slot into their appropriate places. At forward, the most pressing need is a physical defense first forward to play in the top six. I fully disagree. There isn’t enough here to win it all. No cap space and the 2 guys you’re relying on are getting older and not going to win it all for us. We’re still 4-5 guys away from a Cup. And I mean 5 good players. So it’s probably not gonna happen. A full rebuild is much quicker when you’ve got assets!!! |
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Post by mvr on Nov 20, 2021 19:29:51 GMT -6
Big T.
You and i have debated the tear down issue for many years now.
You are right in the sense that the team's core players (Toews and Kane) are in decline. Their trade value will only decline from here. You are also correct in your timeline. This team will not be a contender for at least a few years.
Nevertheless, if the young players on the team now and those to be drafted over the next few years are going to improve, veterans will be needed to provide a framework for success.
Most draft picks and prospects will only turn into good players in the right environment. They are far from finished products when they first arrive in the NHL. Without quality core veterans, most don't develop to their potential. What is left is the Edmonton Oilers and Ottawa Senators of the past 20 years churning through one elite prospect after the next.
How many young careers did the Oilers destroy before luckily landing on generational talents like McDavid and Draisaitl to carry them?
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Post by BigT on Nov 21, 2021 2:36:52 GMT -6
Big T. You and i have debated the tear down issue for many years now. You are right in the sense that the team's core players (Toews and Kane) are in decline. Their trade value will only decline from here. You are also correct in your timeline. This team will not be a contender for at least a few years. Nevertheless, if the young players on the team now and those to be drafted over the next few years are going to improve, veterans will be needed to provide a framework for success. Most draft picks and prospects will only turn into good players in the right environment. They are far from finished products when they first arrive in the NHL. Without quality core veterans, most don't develop to their potential. What is left is the Edmonton Oilers and Ottawa Senators of the past 20 years churning through one elite prospect after the next. How many young careers did the Oilers destroy before luckily landing on generational talents like McDavid and Draisaitl to carry them? I can’t say your argument is wrong. I agree with you that Vets are needed. Absolutely. But you don’t need Hall of famers. If anything. I’m starting to feel that Toews and Kane aren’t the guys to teach the next generation. Not everyone is a teacher. My buddy who works for me, he’s my carpenter who builds elevator shafts for residential elevators. He’s very good at his job. Very good. But he’ll be the first to admit that he’s horrible at teaching people. And if you learn from him, it’s on your own accord. Watch him I guess. And I suspect that Toews and Kane may be the same type thing. Very good players, but may be not the guys to teach you the ropes. I could be very wrong here. But I think I’m not far off. I really feel that guys like Seabs and Sharp, Keith and Hossa were guys to tag along with. I’ve never heard one player ever say that they lived with Toews or Kane. Seabs has had 2-3. Keith had Versteeg and a couple others. Hossa had the Slovaks like Kopecky. Anyways……… We can get great veteran leadership in many different ways. It doesn’t have to be Toews and Kane. It could very well be Dcat, or Jones etc. a rebuild will work fine. Can’t just say that only Toews and Kane are the only ones to bring the leadership!!! |
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Post by mvr on Nov 21, 2021 10:50:32 GMT -6
Toews is looking overmatched and frustrated most nights when slotted against the opponent's best.
Last night, he took two unnecessary penalties. He can't generate offence while checking and now cheats far too often by leaving the zone early.
I would like to see his role change (and I have made this point for a couple of years now). Play him with Kane and get a legit two way centre to take on the Bolland job.
JT Miller is rumoured to be on his way out of Vancouver. He has two years left before UFA and carries a reasonable cap hit of just over $5 M a year. He would be my target.
I would offer up a couple of the young defence prospects now in Rockford, any of the unsigned college kids, and someone like Strome or Nylander.
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Post by hsbob on Nov 21, 2021 11:23:42 GMT -6
C'mon you guys,I know drafting Dach a few years back instead of a Yank won a few of you over but correct me where I'm wrong here.....
I said this in the GDT and I'll say it here,the trades with Fla were SB FAILED attempt to show how he could get more out of players Q had no use for and we CAN'T!
Brent 'buyout' Connolly and his 7M price tag to play in Rockford never to be seen again....BELIEVE ME! He's in the A where he belongs and Q knew it!
For Borgstrom who sat in favor of Hardman,Chaira,Carpenter and R Johnson last night and few teams would want those players. Borgstrom was in Europe where he belonged and Q knew it!
Stillman is okay as a bottom pair D-man and Carlsson has also drawn into a MUCH better D-Core in Fla a few times too and Stillman still couldn't crack that D-core regularly either......small victory if that.
Vinny was BY FAR the best get and better than any of our bottom six forwards but DUMBASS didn't want him for a million.
Florida was able to get Bennett with the WASTED cap space they dumped on us for two 2nd's,we paid Shaw more and gave up a 2nd and a 3rd! Bennet's a BEAST and Shaw retired. Called it.
YES,we gave a very good D-man,a #1 as I've said before MAX $$$,MAX tern and MAX clauses even though we were only one of two teams he'd go to and Dallas had already spent their money so we had a captive audience an took no advantage of it.
We gave up nothing for MAF? Of course we gave up nothing,any other GM gets $$$ retained or sweetener.......but it was decent of DUMBASS to help teams like Fla and LV reach their potential.
Was giving up anything for Maata's 4.6M who we're still payin' and deHAAN's 4M whos' hurt again....called that too just a few days ago when the Habs signed Chairot for 3.5M as a UFA the very same summer the smart thing to do?
When 31yro Tyler Johnson isn't hurt he's a 3rd liner AT BEST and he gets 5M till 2024 and why can TB deal with Seabs' LTIR/cap hit every year and we couldn't?
Kubalik was a good get(even the blind pig finds the occasional acorn)but the other players named have proved nothing yet and our 'bigger' team gladly let Patrick Kane get forearmed in the face last night......guess D-Cat shoulda settled everybody's hash again?
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Post by hsbob on Nov 21, 2021 11:25:53 GMT -6
Toews is looking overmatched and frustrated most nights when slotted against the opponent's best. Last night, he took two unnecessary penalties. He can't generate offence while checking and now cheats far too often by leaving the zone early. I would like to see his role change (and I have made this point for a couple of years now). Play him with Kane and get a legit two way centre to take on the Bolland job. JT Miller is rumoured to be on his way out of Vancouver. He has two years left before UFA and carries a reasonable cap hit of just over $5 M a year. He would be my target. I would offer up a couple of the young defence prospects now in Rockford, any of the unsigned college kids, and someone like Strome or Nylander. What role do you see Tylr Johnson filling for 5M IF he ever gets healthy again @31? |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 21, 2021 11:40:06 GMT -6
Big T. You and i have debated the tear down issue for many years now. You are right in the sense that the team's core players (Toews and Kane) are in decline. Their trade value will only decline from here. You are also correct in your timeline. This team will not be a contender for at least a few years. Nevertheless, if the young players on the team now and those to be drafted over the next few years are going to improve, veterans will be needed to provide a framework for success. Most draft picks and prospects will only turn into good players in the right environment. They are far from finished products when they first arrive in the NHL. Without quality core veterans, most don't develop to their potential. What is left is the Edmonton Oilers and Ottawa Senators of the past 20 years churning through one elite prospect after the next. How many young careers did the Oilers destroy before luckily landing on generational talents like McDavid and Draisaitl to carry them? I can’t say your argument is wrong. I agree with you that Vets are needed. Absolutely. But you don’t need Hall of famers. If anything. I’m starting to feel that Toews and Kane aren’t the guys to teach the next generation. Not everyone is a teacher. My buddy who works for me, he’s my carpenter who builds elevator shafts for residential elevators. He’s very good at his job. Very good. But he’ll be the first to admit that he’s horrible at teaching people. And if you learn from him, it’s on your own accord. Watch him I guess. And I suspect that Toews and Kane may be the same type thing. Very good players, but may be not the guys to teach you the ropes. I could be very wrong here. But I think I’m not far off. I really feel that guys like Seabs and Sharp, Keith and Hossa were guys to tag along with. I’ve never heard one player ever say that they lived with Toews or Kane. Seabs has had 2-3. Keith had Versteeg and a couple others. Hossa had the Slovaks like Kopecky. Anyways……… We can get great veteran leadership in many different ways. It doesn’t have to be Toews and Kane. It could very well be Dcat, or Jones etc. a rebuild will work fine. Can’t just say that only Toews and Kane are the only ones to bring the leadership!!! C'mon T What're gonna teach R Johnson,Entwistle and Hardman ect,ect,.how to get back n forth to Rockford? Toews has been seen working with Dach at FO's and Dach has regressed by 10% so far.....he's unteachable when it comes to FO's or at least he has been so far throughout his development. Patrick Kane has spent his time and several summers working with guys like D-Cat,Strome and a few other just to have a CLUELESS HC not play any of em together anyway. Teach Strome not to ignore defensive assignments? Kurashev to do ANYTHING useful? He did have a nice pass last night though(bout time).....good luck with that. Teach Borgstrom he's not in Europe anymore? What should Kane and Toews have taught a USELESS NOlander? |
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Post by mvr on Nov 21, 2021 13:18:56 GMT -6
What role do you see Tylr Johnson filling for 5M IF he ever gets healthy again @31? Perhaps second or third line wing. Likely with Miller if Vancouver is willing to trade him. The cap hit does not scare me. Remove deHaan in a trade at half price. Subtract Strome. |
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Post by BigT on Nov 21, 2021 14:24:29 GMT -6
I can’t say your argument is wrong. I agree with you that Vets are needed. Absolutely. But you don’t need Hall of famers. If anything. I’m starting to feel that Toews and Kane aren’t the guys to teach the next generation. Not everyone is a teacher. My buddy who works for me, he’s my carpenter who builds elevator shafts for residential elevators. He’s very good at his job. Very good. But he’ll be the first to admit that he’s horrible at teaching people. And if you learn from him, it’s on your own accord. Watch him I guess. And I suspect that Toews and Kane may be the same type thing. Very good players, but may be not the guys to teach you the ropes. I could be very wrong here. But I think I’m not far off. I really feel that guys like Seabs and Sharp, Keith and Hossa were guys to tag along with. I’ve never heard one player ever say that they lived with Toews or Kane. Seabs has had 2-3. Keith had Versteeg and a couple others. Hossa had the Slovaks like Kopecky. Anyways……… We can get great veteran leadership in many different ways. It doesn’t have to be Toews and Kane. It could very well be Dcat, or Jones etc. a rebuild will work fine. Can’t just say that only Toews and Kane are the only ones to bring the leadership!!! C'mon T What're gonna teach R Johnson,Entwistle and Hardman ect,ect,.how to get back n forth to Rockford? Toews has been seen working with Dach at FO's and Dach has regressed by 10% so far.....he's unteachable when it comes to FO's or at least he has been so far throughout his development. Patrick Kane has spent his time and several summers working with guys like D-Cat,Strome and a few other just to have a CLUELESS HC not play any of em together anyway. Teach Strome not to ignore defensive assignments? Kurashev to do ANYTHING useful? He did have a nice pass last night though(bout time).....good luck with that. Teach Borgstrom he's not in Europe anymore? What should Kane and Toews have taught a USELESS NOlander? MVR was just saying that we need Toews and Kane around for their veteran presence. I disagreed. I feel we can find great vets out there that everyone loves. Lotta good people in Hockey. I feel Toews and Kane’s value lies in their trade value. This team is not winning a Cup this year. They’re not gonna win it next year. They can leave UFA in 1.5 years. Their shelf life is almost up. It sucks, it really does. However I see the next generation. All that’s left with this team is maybe a playoff round or two at most. But I think that’s even a stretch. I think the team needs to be rebuilt…… bad. The cupboards are empty, and there’s no depth throughout the lineup. The best players are getting older and not worth it to build around them anymore, especially at that much money!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 22, 2021 9:21:59 GMT -6
What role do you see Tylr Johnson filling for 5M IF he ever gets healthy again @31? Perhaps second or third line wing. Likely with Miller if Vancouver is willing to trade him. The cap hit does not scare me. Remove deHaan in a trade at half price. Subtract Strome. This came down to the choice of not having Seab's 6.8M LTIR space available until a game into the season for this and two more years vs having Johnson's 5M for this and two more spent on an aging bottom six forward and it was an EASY decision for a much better run organization or did we 'fleece' Tampa too by getting their 2nd round 2023 pick which should be somewhere around #50-60. NOBODY's tradin' for Johnson w/o retained $$$ or sweetener,same with deHAAN who's hurt again as usual so half price will only work for a team like AZ I guess but they might still want a pick too.. Zach Smith's 3.2M didn't scare anybody either,just like Connonlly's 3.5M,deHAAN's 4.6M,Shaw's 3.9M or Johnson's 5M but Keith's 5.5M kept people up at night. The four I mentioned take up 17M in cap space for little to nothing in the way of on-ice help but Kane and Toews.......amirite? Subtract Strome and the team is weaker at center and possible by a lot. |
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Post by hsbob on Nov 22, 2021 9:28:13 GMT -6
C'mon T What're gonna teach R Johnson,Entwistle and Hardman ect,ect,.how to get back n forth to Rockford? Toews has been seen working with Dach at FO's and Dach has regressed by 10% so far.....he's unteachable when it comes to FO's or at least he has been so far throughout his development. Patrick Kane has spent his time and several summers working with guys like D-Cat,Strome and a few other just to have a CLUELESS HC not play any of em together anyway. Teach Strome not to ignore defensive assignments? Kurashev to do ANYTHING useful? He did have a nice pass last night though(bout time).....good luck with that. Teach Borgstrom he's not in Europe anymore? What should Kane and Toews have taught a USELESS NOlander? MVR was just saying that we need Toews and Kane around for their veteran presence. I disagreed. I feel we can find great vets out there that everyone loves. Lotta good people in Hockey. I feel Toews and Kane’s value lies in their trade value. This team is not winning a Cup this year. They’re not gonna win it next year. They can leave UFA in 1.5 years. Their shelf life is almost up. It sucks, it really does. However I see the next generation. All that’s left with this team is maybe a playoff round or two at most. But I think that’s even a stretch. I think the team needs to be rebuilt…… bad. The cupboards are empty, and there’s no depth throughout the lineup. The best players are getting older and not worth it to build around them anymore, especially at that much money!!! A lot of us were resigned to moving K&T last year when we told we were rebuilding but we changed course and went all in on big money players. Since this course change,I'm no longer resigned to moving K&T regardless of whether it's good for the team or not because I might lose interest entirely. The "next generation" you mentioned is another reason. |
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