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Post by hsbob on May 11, 2022 8:33:19 GMT -6
Both Toews and Kane peak in trade value at next year's deadline after most of their contracts have been paid out. You want to maximize the number of potential bidders to drive up the price. I would wait - unless a team is willing to overpay. It likely doesn't matter as much with Jones and Debrincat (and Strome). Acquiring any of these players means a longer term commitment from the buyer's perspective. This is the kind of trade to make in the off-season. True but if they keep them till the trade deadline it'll mean they'll have more wins and less chance at Bedard. And Kane tied his career high in assists on a bad team, I'm sure if he's available this offseason there'll be many teams bidding for him. Toews not so much so maybe keep him till the TDL, but ultimately it's up to them. A bad team but a great line, imagine the numbers all three woulda had if they were together for a full year instead of half of it. Very valuable none the less and that's with little retained IMO due to only one year left,2-3M should get a BIG return and Rags' fans will demand it this summer. |
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Post by jacksalmon on May 11, 2022 10:05:35 GMT -6
What future? On second thought, I guess there is still a future even if it is a lousy one. It sounds like scorched earth today jack and it probably should be for a real rebuild but we were keepin' everybody yesterday and bringing in Trotz to coach em so I'm as confounded as ever. It's either scorch the earth,collect picks,be bad for a few years and prey to God all the right decisions are made for those few years and that could shorten the rebuild. We're gonna see if 'The Family' has the stomach for this at all because it'll be ugly but ugly w/o any good plyers to watch and that stuff is in a Wirtz's DNA!!! Well, I am not crowing, but merely observing. What was gained by keeping Kane and Toews around for years after I had called for trading them? Nothing. Now, the talk is all about trading them years after their peak value was achieved. Some want DCat traded as well as Jones. So, there will be nothing left and they won't even have to tank next year as they will be so bad that they won't even have to try to lose. It will be an inevitable outcome of showing up for a game. They will try to get Bedard but will most likely lose the lottery as the team with the best chance has won two in a row. I am glad that I am starting to enjoy cheering for teams that are not the Hawks, like the Leafs and Panthers. I will need to be following other teams in order to get some enjoyment out of the seasons as they go on for five, or ten, or fifteen, or even twenty to twenty-five years. At some point during that span, I will die and won't give a shit anymore. |
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Post by BigT on May 11, 2022 10:37:01 GMT -6
It sounds like scorched earth today jack and it probably should be for a real rebuild but we were keepin' everybody yesterday and bringing in Trotz to coach em so I'm as confounded as ever. It's either scorch the earth,collect picks,be bad for a few years and prey to God all the right decisions are made for those few years and that could shorten the rebuild. We're gonna see if 'The Family' has the stomach for this at all because it'll be ugly but ugly w/o any good plyers to watch and that stuff is in a Wirtz's DNA!!! Well, I am not crowing, but merely observing. What was gained by keeping Kane and Toews around for years after I had called for trading them? Nothing. Now, the talk is all about trading them years after their peak value was achieved. Some want DCat traded as well as Jones. So, there will be nothing left and they won't even have to tank next year as they will be so bad that they won't even have to try to lose. It will be an inevitable outcome of showing up for a game. They will try to get Bedard but will most likely lose the lottery as the team with the best chance has won two in a row. I am glad that I am starting to enjoy cheering for teams that are not the Hawks, like the Leafs and Panthers. I will need to be following other teams in order to get some enjoyment out of the seasons as they go on for five, or ten, or fifteen, or even twenty to twenty-five years. At some point during that span, I will die and won't give a shit anymore. Jack, rebuilds suck. That’s for sure. But it’s a necessary evil. If they keep guys just to entertain a few fans for nostalgia. It doesn’t work. Just hang in there. The pieces will come quick. I for one find the rise from the ashes very entertaining. This time around the Hawks only have a 7 year drought. Not a 49. I feel it won’t hurt as bad. This time I hope the management is ready to jettison over paid guys no matter how unpopular it may be. They have to stock pile prospects and trade overpaid guys, and restock the prospects. Keep a core of 4 guys. And keep building from within. Come along for the ride Jack. It’ll be interesting to say the least!!! |
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Post by vadarx on May 11, 2022 14:14:51 GMT -6
I hear ya on having to move Dcat to move Kane. if that is the way it has to be, then so be it. I honestly don't agree that Toews at half price is something that will be terribly desirable for a whole season for most teams. that is a lot of money for a guy who is probably gonna be a 3rd line guy for most contenders. if they can convince him to wait until the deadline, that would be the optimal scenario. I think all they'd have to do is ask Kane to waive(same for Toews) but forcing a decision by trading his admitted favorite linemate could be another way to go.......you might not like the decision though if the team 'plots' a move to force him out. He and Toews both can obviously nix any deal......offseason or TDL. I highly doubt either would go this route or stay where they're not wanted(and we don't know what Rocky wants yet) so I believe they'd play ball with KD who does seem like a straight shooter. Keeping these guys till the TDL is also a risk of it's own with obvious possibly rewards in player trade value but if K&T and D-Cat go out and have big years,the team could win more games than it needs to in the upcoming 'legendary' draft year. If a few kids like Dach step up and a vet GT plays decent....the team could be dangerously close to.500 and a #10 pick when a top three pick is a MUST next year. Just what do you figure JT's worth? He said he feels he has a lot of hockey left and some good 3LC's do make around 5M not that he's a 3LC if healthy with decent linemates. He might have needed a full season to get his game back and he did get the wingers not named Kane and DeBrincat all year. LA got a real good center on the open market for 5.5M but his career high in goals was 13 at that point and they still paid up for his D and FO's and we pay Johnson 5M for two more......what's he worth? when you take into consideration his injury/illness history and the fact that he hasn't been a big offensive producer since the 18-19 season, what would you give for him if your were a contender? especially a contender with cap restraints, which is most of them. 5.5 million isn't breaking the bank, but it isn't going to be cheap either. I don't see any team giving anything more than a 3rd with stipulations that it could be a 2nd for him, similar to the Keith deal. now, if we took back a bad contract as well, we could probably get a first rounder. as I've stated before, my move if I am KD is to convince Toews that he is wanted in Chicago to stay and lead the rebuild for as long as he wants to do it. sign him to a three year deal at half of what he is making now with a NMC and agree that he is here until he doesn't want to be, but should he decide he wants out the team will do all it can to move him to a winner at that point. then, I ask Kane to waive and trade him over the summer to avoid him having a huge season and winning some games we need to lose. once those two have been settled, I ask Dcat if he wants to stay or go. if he wants in, sign him long term. if he doesn't, then I look to make a sign and trade or just trade him to the highest bidder. if he stays with 88 gone, I probably consider signing Strome to a short deal. meanwhile, I am trying desperately to trade Jones ASAP. he should actually be the first domino to fall, if he could be traded that is... |
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Post by BigT on May 11, 2022 16:43:08 GMT -6
Jones got 51 points on a bad team. He’s 27. He’s big and he would have signed a ticket elsewhere if the Hawks never traded for him. I’m sure there’s a trade for him. Dallas has a shit ton coming off the books. But to help them out even more. They’ve got Radulov (6.25), Klingberg (4.25), Sekera (1.5), Holtby (2) and a few others at 1 million.
Now to maximize the return. Hawks could take back Bishops LTIR contract, which only has one year left at 4.9.
Hawks could see a decent return of a 1st and a good prospect. Plus they rid themselves of that long term uncertainty.
This is the type of deal I’d be looking for. I’m sure it can happen. Dallas will need someone soon as they’re losing 6 guys it seems. They could potentially have 25 million in space this year!!!
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Post by vadarx on May 11, 2022 17:15:56 GMT -6
Jones got 51 points on a bad team. He’s 27. He’s big and he would have signed a ticket elsewhere if the Hawks never traded for him. I’m sure there’s a trade for him. Dallas has a shit ton coming off the books. But to help them out even more. They’ve got Radulov (6.25), Klingberg (4.25), Sekera (1.5), Holtby (2) and a few others at 1 million. Now to maximize the return. Hawks could take back Bishops LTIR contract, which only has one year left at 4.9. Hawks could see a decent return of a 1st and a good prospect. Plus they rid themselves of that long term uncertainty. This is the type of deal I’d be looking for. I’m sure it can happen. Dallas will need someone soon as they’re losing 6 guys it seems. They could potentially have 25 million in space this year!!! Dallas has just under 16 million with 15 guys signed next year. Robertson is a RFA who will cost them some money. taking on that Jones contract won't be easy without a bunch of help. I think we take back Bishap and I think maybe Faksa might be enough, but I'd bet we don't get a ton pick/prosepct-wise. tbh, I expect Jones to be in Chicago for a good while. it is just going to be aggravating if we rebuild this right over the next 5 years and then just when we are getting better that Jones contract turns into an anchor... |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on May 11, 2022 17:29:16 GMT -6
Jones got 51 points on a bad team. He’s 27. He’s big and he would have signed a ticket elsewhere if the Hawks never traded for him. I’m sure there’s a trade for him. Dallas has a shit ton coming off the books. But to help them out even more. They’ve got Radulov (6.25), Klingberg (4.25), Sekera (1.5), Holtby (2) and a few others at 1 million. Now to maximize the return. Hawks could take back Bishops LTIR contract, which only has one year left at 4.9. Hawks could see a decent return of a 1st and a good prospect. Plus they rid themselves of that long term uncertainty. This is the type of deal I’d be looking for. I’m sure it can happen. Dallas will need someone soon as they’re losing 6 guys it seems. They could potentially have 25 million in space this year!!! Dallas has just under 16 million with 15 guys signed next year. Robertson is a RFA who will cost them some money. taking on that Jones contract won't be easy without a bunch of help. I think we take back Bishap and I think maybe Faksa might be enough, but I'd bet we don't get a ton pick/prosepct-wise. tbh, I expect Jones to be in Chicago for a good while. it is just going to be aggravating if we rebuild this right over the next 5 years and then just when we are getting better that Jones contract turns into an anchor... I'd gladly take Faksa at 3.2 per for 3 more years, he's 28 and a 6'3" 220lb center, and Bishop only has 1yr left at 4.9. Doesn't matter if they don't get picks or prospects as long as that contract's gone. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on May 11, 2022 17:31:08 GMT -6
Hawks don't have a 1st but they have 5 picks in rounds 2 and 3, that's a good start to restocking the pipeline.
Maybe they can trade Debrincat for a 1st this year and other pieces. Maybe trade Debrincat to Montreal to get Wright and Guhle.
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Post by vadarx on May 11, 2022 17:36:19 GMT -6
Dallas has just under 16 million with 15 guys signed next year. Robertson is a RFA who will cost them some money. taking on that Jones contract won't be easy without a bunch of help. I think we take back Bishap and I think maybe Faksa might be enough, but I'd bet we don't get a ton pick/prosepct-wise. tbh, I expect Jones to be in Chicago for a good while. it is just going to be aggravating if we rebuild this right over the next 5 years and then just when we are getting better that Jones contract turns into an anchor... I'd gladly take Faksa at 3.2 per for 3 more years, he's 28 and a 6'3" 220lb center, and Bishop only has 1yr left at 4.9. Doesn't matter if they don't get picks or prospects as long as that contract's gone. same. Faksa doesn't score much, but I'll eat two years of that deal to move Jones. |
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Post by hsbob on May 12, 2022 8:11:20 GMT -6
Well, I am not crowing, but merely observing. What was gained by keeping Kane and Toews around for years after I had called for trading them? Nothing. Now, the talk is all about trading them years after their peak value was achieved. Some want DCat traded as well as Jones. So, there will be nothing left and they won't even have to tank next year as they will be so bad that they won't even have to try to lose. It will be an inevitable outcome of showing up for a game. They will try to get Bedard but will most likely lose the lottery as the team with the best chance has won two in a row. I am glad that I am starting to enjoy cheering for teams that are not the Hawks, like the Leafs and Panthers. I will need to be following other teams in order to get some enjoyment out of the seasons as they go on for five, or ten, or fifteen, or even twenty to twenty-five years. At some point during that span, I will die and won't give a shit anymore. Jack, rebuilds suck. That’s for sure. But it’s a necessary evil. If they keep guys just to entertain a few fans for nostalgia. It doesn’t work. Just hang in there. The pieces will come quick. I for one find the rise from the ashes very entertaining. This time around the Hawks only have a 7 year drought. Not a 49. I feel it won’t hurt as bad. This time I hope the management is ready to jettison over paid guys no matter how unpopular it may be. They have to stock pile prospects and trade overpaid guys, and restock the prospects. Keep a core of 4 guys. And keep building from within. Come along for the ride Jack. It’ll be interesting to say the least!!! Which overpaid guys need to be jettisoned? If K,T and Cat are moved,the cap floor is a possible problem. Who are the core four? KD might be good at his job,he seems like a bright kid to be fair but assuming all the pieces are gonna come quick,we'll get the lucky lottery balls and all the other decisions like Strome and a HC all work out......is setting a fanbase up for disappointment. The Oil got 'their' Bedard-type player and Connor McDavid has been everything his team coulda hoped for and they're staring another 1st round exit right in the eyes. |
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Post by hsbob on May 12, 2022 8:40:00 GMT -6
There's NO doubt acquiring Seth Jones in trade last year was a major set-back and quite the parting gift on the part of DUMBASS and I like the player more than most. Max assets given up,MAX $$$,MAX term,MAX clauses and MAX bonuses.........FIVE MILLION a year of Jones compensation will come in the form of bonuses all the way till year eight,making a buy-out worthless!
I believe Jones was mis-led when signed,played well for 2/3 of the season and became disillusioned when Hagel and MAF were moved. I still think he's a #1 but do we need a #1 right now and what good is a #1 skatin' with different bottom pair guys all he time anyway?
Maybe somebody takes that deal but what does moving Jones say to future potential FA's or is expecting any top FA's for some time not an issue?
Is paying Murphy 4.4M for the next four years a concern? We always just look at the top paid guys and figure 'what the hell' when it comes to the 16.9M guys like Johnson,Murphy,McCabe and Connolly will make next year and beyond for all but Connolly.
How does the team reach the cap floor if Kane,Toews,Cat,Jones and Strome are all moved?
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Post by OldTimeHawky on May 12, 2022 8:56:18 GMT -6
Bob if KD moves anyone that signed here as a free agent or had their contract extended it shouldn't deter future free agents because Bowman made those deals, if KD signed or extended someone and traded them early in their contract that's a different story.
Hopefully he tries to move Murphy, Jones, and see if there's any takers for Johnson. If Connelly comes back in the playoffs it might help to move his as well.
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Post by hsbob on May 12, 2022 9:25:41 GMT -6
Bob if KD moves anyone that signed here as a free agent or had their contract extended it shouldn't deter future free agents because Bowman made those deals, if KD signed or extended someone and traded them early in their contract that's a different story. Hopefully he tries to move Murphy, Jones, and see if there's any takers for Johnson. If Connelly comes back in the playoffs it might help to move his as well. I see that point,it could be a number of years before the team has to sign a top FA and agents have no principles so it should be a non-factor. As far as the other guys,nobody's taking Murphy,Johnson or Connolly w/o return and our return is pretty thin but ya gotta pay somebody if all the good players go. Will Murphy ever have a healthy 82 game season........it'd be his first. His new deal kicks in next year too,how many times can the team do this?LOL! |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on May 12, 2022 9:32:04 GMT -6
Bob if KD moves anyone that signed here as a free agent or had their contract extended it shouldn't deter future free agents because Bowman made those deals, if KD signed or extended someone and traded them early in their contract that's a different story. Hopefully he tries to move Murphy, Jones, and see if there's any takers for Johnson. If Connelly comes back in the playoffs it might help to move his as well. I see that point,it could be a number of years before the team has to sign a top FA and agents have no principles so it should be a non-factor. As far as the other guys,nobody's taking Murphy,Johnson or Connolly w/o return and our return is pretty thin but ya gotta pay somebody if all the good players go. Will Murphy ever have a healthy 82 game season........it'd be his first. His new deal kicks in next year too,how many times can the team do this?LOL! Yeah if Toews, Kane, and Debrincat are moved they'll have to keep Murphy, Johnson, and play Connolly next season, that'll help with the odds of getting Bedard. And Murphy probably won't ever play a full season, I don't mind him but I wouldn't have signed him for 4yrs at 4+ with his injury problems. |
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Post by BigT on May 12, 2022 11:04:28 GMT -6
Jack, rebuilds suck. That’s for sure. But it’s a necessary evil. If they keep guys just to entertain a few fans for nostalgia. It doesn’t work. Just hang in there. The pieces will come quick. I for one find the rise from the ashes very entertaining. This time around the Hawks only have a 7 year drought. Not a 49. I feel it won’t hurt as bad. This time I hope the management is ready to jettison over paid guys no matter how unpopular it may be. They have to stock pile prospects and trade overpaid guys, and restock the prospects. Keep a core of 4 guys. And keep building from within. Come along for the ride Jack. It’ll be interesting to say the least!!! Which overpaid guys need to be jettisoned? If K,T and Cat are moved,the cap floor is a possible problem. Who are the core four? KD might be good at his job,he seems like a bright kid to be fair but assuming all the pieces are gonna come quick,we'll get the lucky lottery balls and all the other decisions like Strome and a HC all work out......is setting a fanbase up for disappointment. The Oil got 'their' Bedard-type player and Connor McDavid has been everything his team coulda hoped for and they're staring another 1st round exit right in the eyes. I don’t mean any of that with this group. I mean moving forward. They need to find 4 guys to be their new core and trade guys to replenish the pipeline. Pitt has done a good job of this. They’re always moving guys to make room for cheaper kids they’ve been developing. Then they have the cap space to make moves and get some extra help. So I’m hoping for the future this is the way. If not. It’ll be over here in a few years……. Again. Realistically this last rebuild only last 8-9 years 2009- 2016. Before and after are irrelevant. A rebuild should last at least 13-14 years. Maybe some tinkering in between and a couple down years. But from the time you have kids at 21-34/35 you should be good. The last version of the Hawks did not last that long. Even though players were here, and still are, the team is no longer relevant in the playoff hunt and hasn’t been for some time!!! |
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Post by hsbob on May 13, 2022 7:35:58 GMT -6
Which overpaid guys need to be jettisoned? If K,T and Cat are moved,the cap floor is a possible problem. Who are the core four? KD might be good at his job,he seems like a bright kid to be fair but assuming all the pieces are gonna come quick,we'll get the lucky lottery balls and all the other decisions like Strome and a HC all work out......is setting a fanbase up for disappointment. The Oil got 'their' Bedard-type player and Connor McDavid has been everything his team coulda hoped for and they're staring another 1st round exit right in the eyes. I don’t mean any of that with this group. I mean moving forward. They need to find 4 guys to be their new core and trade guys to replenish the pipeline. Pitt has done a good job of this. They’re always moving guys to make room for cheaper kids they’ve been developing. Then they have the cap space to make moves and get some extra help. So I’m hoping for the future this is the way. If not. It’ll be over here in a few years……. Again. Realistically this last rebuild only last 8-9 years 2009- 2016. Before and after are irrelevant. A rebuild should last at least 13-14 years. Maybe some tinkering in between and a couple down years. But from the time you have kids at 21-34/35 you should be good. The last version of the Hawks did not last that long. Even though players were here, and still are, the team is no longer relevant in the playoff hunt and hasn’t been for some time!!! In the post I replied to you said "If they keep guys just to entertain a few fans for nostalgia,it doesn't work",I agree with you on that statement and I've said so BUT you're obviously referring to Kane and Toews and possibly Cat. Right? You tell me how long rebuilds take,some fans have waited decades to get past the 1st round and these are good teams who GOT their McDavid,Draisaitl,Mathews,Marner and in Florida's case got Barkov,Huberdeau and Ekblad.....all studs in the 1st round and all of em have been as advertised and neither team has seen a 2nd round series. I use these teams to be fair because all are on the come or at least they should be but there's also the Preds and Jets who did things right but are now going in the wrong direction. Sharks had multiple great players for years,Devils been rebuilding for what......15 years after being a dominant team and they've won their share of lotteries and they also had Lou Lamorello for a while. All I'm saying is a lotta good teams with good GM's like Dallas have come close and some teams have been rebuilding since the '90's......or the '80's! What's expected at the end a decent,five year rebuild even with a bit of good fortune and some solid personnel decisions along the way? I'm seriously curious what's expected considering how many well-run teams have had such a hard time having or retaining success. |
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Post by steamer on May 13, 2022 10:21:43 GMT -6
Great question - the chances of winning 3 cups in 6 seasons anytime soon has got to be VERY low. But at least making the playoffs consistently in 5 years with an opportunity for getting to the finals?
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Post by BigT on May 13, 2022 16:37:37 GMT -6
I don’t mean any of that with this group. I mean moving forward. They need to find 4 guys to be their new core and trade guys to replenish the pipeline. Pitt has done a good job of this. They’re always moving guys to make room for cheaper kids they’ve been developing. Then they have the cap space to make moves and get some extra help. So I’m hoping for the future this is the way. If not. It’ll be over here in a few years……. Again. Realistically this last rebuild only last 8-9 years 2009- 2016. Before and after are irrelevant. A rebuild should last at least 13-14 years. Maybe some tinkering in between and a couple down years. But from the time you have kids at 21-34/35 you should be good. The last version of the Hawks did not last that long. Even though players were here, and still are, the team is no longer relevant in the playoff hunt and hasn’t been for some time!!! In the post I replied to you said "If they keep guys just to entertain a few fans for nostalgia,it doesn't work",I agree with you on that statement and I've said so BUT you're obviously referring to Kane and Toews and possibly Cat. Right? You tell me how long rebuilds take,some fans have waited decades to get past the 1st round and these are good teams who GOT their McDavid,Draisaitl,Mathews,Marner and in Florida's case got Barkov,Huberdeau and Ekblad.....all studs in the 1st round and all of em have been as advertised and neither team has seen a 2nd round series. I use these teams to be fair because all are on the come or at least they should be but there's also the Preds and Jets who did things right but are now going in the wrong direction. Sharks had multiple great players for years,Devils been rebuilding for what......15 years after being a dominant team and they've won their share of lotteries and they also had Lou Lamorello for a while. All I'm saying is a lotta good teams with good GM's like Dallas have come close and some teams have been rebuilding since the '90's......or the '80's! What's expected at the end a decent,five year rebuild even with a bit of good fortune and some solid personnel decisions along the way? I'm seriously curious what's expected considering how many well-run teams have had such a hard time having or retaining success. I’m not talking about the current team. I’m talking about the future. What has happened here cannot happen again. Especially the last 5 years. About the other teams you mentioned. My best I can offer to that is that most of those teams disbanded the rebuild and went for it too soon. I doubt Yzerman goes out and signs free agents, trades for proven guys and gives up a lot of his kids. Detroit is probably in year 5 of an 8 year rebuild. In 2-3 years they can go after the missing pieces. Don’t forget, the Wings and Devils and Avalanche all held on to their core group for a long long time. They didn’t get anything for them and it hurt for a long time. The Hawks have an opportunity to fast track the rebuild to a 3-4 year deal. And be ready to contend for a playoff spot right at the end of that timeline and start to contend for a Cup within 2-3 years of that. So we’ll see what path the Hawks take. It’s too hard wrong to tell. If they don’t use asset management to their advantage, it’ll take a solid 8-10 years just to be contending for a playoff spot. Then to contend for a Cup, it very well could be 15 years from now. Could be 20+. It is what it is. But getting back 8-9 good pieces and picks. The Hawks can speed things up massively. Holding onto the last of the old guard, will force the Hawks into a long term rebuild!!! |
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Post by shooter61 on May 14, 2022 8:25:40 GMT -6
Sounds Like a good plan, but in reality it's not that easy , bob makes very good points, and so does T, but getting draft picks mean nothing till you actually pick them, and the chances of them being stars to lead a franchise to the cup is even lower, it takes luck more than anything, with out getting Kane and JT, and them turning out like they did , we would still be looking for a cup, So to say that all you need is a bunch of low draft picks is wishful thinking, for everyone picked in the top few of the draft how many can turn a franchise around ,
Can I ask out of the 31 teams who has done it right the last 10 years T you mentioned Pittsburg, but aside from getting lucky with Guentzel , and the 2 goalies , they haven't drafted anyone on their roster, nor are they true Stanley cup contenders
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Post by hsbob on May 14, 2022 8:44:52 GMT -6
In the post I replied to you said "If they keep guys just to entertain a few fans for nostalgia,it doesn't work",I agree with you on that statement and I've said so BUT you're obviously referring to Kane and Toews and possibly Cat. Right? You tell me how long rebuilds take,some fans have waited decades to get past the 1st round and these are good teams who GOT their McDavid,Draisaitl,Mathews,Marner and in Florida's case got Barkov,Huberdeau and Ekblad.....all studs in the 1st round and all of em have been as advertised and neither team has seen a 2nd round series. I use these teams to be fair because all are on the come or at least they should be but there's also the Preds and Jets who did things right but are now going in the wrong direction. Sharks had multiple great players for years,Devils been rebuilding for what......15 years after being a dominant team and they've won their share of lotteries and they also had Lou Lamorello for a while. All I'm saying is a lotta good teams with good GM's like Dallas have come close and some teams have been rebuilding since the '90's......or the '80's! What's expected at the end a decent,five year rebuild even with a bit of good fortune and some solid personnel decisions along the way? I'm seriously curious what's expected considering how many well-run teams have had such a hard time having or retaining success. I’m not talking about the current team. I’m talking about the future. What has happened here cannot happen again. Especially the last 5 years. About the other teams you mentioned. My best I can offer to that is that most of those teams disbanded the rebuild and went for it too soon. I doubt Yzerman goes out and signs free agents, trades for proven guys and gives up a lot of his kids. Detroit is probably in year 5 of an 8 year rebuild. In 2-3 years they can go after the missing pieces. Don’t forget, the Wings and Devils and Avalanche all held on to their core group for a long long time. They didn’t get anything for them and it hurt for a long time. The Hawks have an opportunity to fast track the rebuild to a 3-4 year deal. And be ready to contend for a playoff spot right at the end of that timeline and start to contend for a Cup within 2-3 years of that. So we’ll see what path the Hawks take. It’s too hard wrong to tell. If they don’t use asset management to their advantage, it’ll take a solid 8-10 years just to be contending for a playoff spot. Then to contend for a Cup, it very well could be 15 years from now. Could be 20+. It is what it is. But getting back 8-9 good pieces and picks. The Hawks can speed things up massively. Holding onto the last of the old guard, will force the Hawks into a long term rebuild!!! Getting as many good picks as possible is what any real rebuilding team does and moving whatever brings those picks is also what a real rebuilding team does,I'll agree with that. The more picks,the better the odds of getting what's needed but a LOT's needed and the odds favor no team to be honest or so many good GM wouldn't have failed at it. I'm not saying it can't happen here but to what extent? If KD is above average,all the high picks are the right ones and develop quickly,then that's a different story but also a BIG ask IMO. Even then,all the trade,contract and RFA/UFA decisions also have to be spot on........another BIG ask. I give ownership a TON of shit but these decisions are a lot easier between us than they are for such a business-centric organization,I just don't see Kane,Cat,JT and Strome all moved for picks and prospects but maybe I'm wrong. You mentioned a "3-4 year deal",another "2-3 years" to contend for a cup,an "8-10 years","15 years" and "20+" and unfortunately.......all are on the table. Maybe it turns around like last time,let's hope it's not like the time before. |
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Post by BigT on May 14, 2022 9:55:56 GMT -6
I’m not talking about the current team. I’m talking about the future. What has happened here cannot happen again. Especially the last 5 years. About the other teams you mentioned. My best I can offer to that is that most of those teams disbanded the rebuild and went for it too soon. I doubt Yzerman goes out and signs free agents, trades for proven guys and gives up a lot of his kids. Detroit is probably in year 5 of an 8 year rebuild. In 2-3 years they can go after the missing pieces. Don’t forget, the Wings and Devils and Avalanche all held on to their core group for a long long time. They didn’t get anything for them and it hurt for a long time. The Hawks have an opportunity to fast track the rebuild to a 3-4 year deal. And be ready to contend for a playoff spot right at the end of that timeline and start to contend for a Cup within 2-3 years of that. So we’ll see what path the Hawks take. It’s too hard wrong to tell. If they don’t use asset management to their advantage, it’ll take a solid 8-10 years just to be contending for a playoff spot. Then to contend for a Cup, it very well could be 15 years from now. Could be 20+. It is what it is. But getting back 8-9 good pieces and picks. The Hawks can speed things up massively. Holding onto the last of the old guard, will force the Hawks into a long term rebuild!!! Getting as many good picks as possible is what any real rebuilding team does and moving whatever brings those picks is also what a real rebuilding team does,I'll agree with that. The more picks,the better the odds of getting what's needed but a LOT's needed and the odds favor no team to be honest or so many good GM wouldn't have failed at it. I'm not saying it can't happen here but to what extent? If KD is above average,all the high picks are the right ones and develop quickly,then that's a different story but also a BIG ask IMO. Even then,all the trade,contract and RFA/UFA decisions also have to be spot on........another BIG ask. I give ownership a TON of shit but these decisions are a lot easier between us than they are for such a business-centric organization,I just don't see Kane,Cat,JT and Strome all moved for picks and prospects but maybe I'm wrong. You mentioned a "3-4 year deal",another "2-3 years" to contend for a cup,an "8-10 years","15 years" and "20+" and unfortunately.......all are on the table. Maybe it turns around like last time,let's hope it's not like the time before. I do not possess the powers to predict the future. I’ve stated on here way too many times that history is the best teacher. The blue print is there. Tallon stated that the Hawks need 30 pretty good prospects to sift through. Every team has 30 prospects either in the farm or in the minors. But they’re probably not the grade you need. For example when the Hawks rebuilt they had the likes of Keith, Seabs, Buff, Hammer, Barker, Toews, Kane, Versteeg, Sharp, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer, Dowell, Skille, Ben Smith, Niemi, Wisniewski, Burish, Matt Walker, Colin Fraser, Rene Bourque, Blunden, Hamilton, Parenteau, Nordqvist. And I’m sure there’s a few more. Everyone of those players had a decent career. Maybe not a 14 year career but at least 5-6 years. Which is the average. That list proves that Tallon knew what he was doing and amassed an amazing amount of talent. Yes Sharp and Versteeg were traded for, but they were prospects when they got here. Tallon made a pool of roughly 30 guys to choose from, have competition with, and to trade away. It took from 2002-2007 to amass that much talent. So. I think if the Hawks get to trade most of their assets, the team will be in good shape within 3-4 years as I feel they can be ahead of the curve with the assets they have. I just showed how Tallon did it in a 5 year plan, and I think this current group can get it done within a 4 year plan. Start contending for a playoff spot, then make strides towards the real prize. I don’t think it’s that far off!!! |
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Post by hsbob on May 14, 2022 10:23:40 GMT -6
Getting as many good picks as possible is what any real rebuilding team does and moving whatever brings those picks is also what a real rebuilding team does,I'll agree with that. The more picks,the better the odds of getting what's needed but a LOT's needed and the odds favor no team to be honest or so many good GM wouldn't have failed at it. I'm not saying it can't happen here but to what extent? If KD is above average,all the high picks are the right ones and develop quickly,then that's a different story but also a BIG ask IMO. Even then,all the trade,contract and RFA/UFA decisions also have to be spot on........another BIG ask. I give ownership a TON of shit but these decisions are a lot easier between us than they are for such a business-centric organization,I just don't see Kane,Cat,JT and Strome all moved for picks and prospects but maybe I'm wrong. You mentioned a "3-4 year deal",another "2-3 years" to contend for a cup,an "8-10 years","15 years" and "20+" and unfortunately.......all are on the table. Maybe it turns around like last time,let's hope it's not like the time before. I do not possess the powers to predict the future. I’ve stated on here way too many times that history is the best teacher. The blue print is there. Tallon stated that the Hawks need 30 pretty good prospects to sift through. Every team has 30 prospects either in the farm or in the minors. But they’re probably not the grade you need. For example when the Hawks rebuilt they had the likes of Keith, Seabs, Buff, Hammer, Barker, Toews, Kane, Versteeg, Sharp, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer, Dowell, Skille, Ben Smith, Niemi, Wisniewski, Burish, Matt Walker, Colin Fraser, Rene Bourque, Blunden, Hamilton, Parenteau, Nordqvist. And I’m sure there’s a few more. Everyone of those players had a decent career. Maybe not a 14 year career but at least 5-6 years. Which is the average. That list proves that Tallon knew what he was doing and amassed an amazing amount of talent. Yes Sharp and Versteeg were traded for, but they were prospects when they got here. Tallon made a pool of roughly 30 guys to choose from, have competition with, and to trade away. It took from 2002-2007 to amass that much talent. So. I think if the Hawks get to trade most of their assets, the team will be in good shape within 3-4 years as I feel they can be ahead of the curve with the assets they have. I just showed how Tallon did it in a 5 year plan, and I think this current group can get it done within a 4 year plan. Start contending for a playoff spot, then make strides towards the real prize. I don’t think it’s that far off!!! If a few young pieces were already in place,I' be more inclined to agree with you but let's be honest here........If Kane,JT,Cat,Strome and S Jones are all moved,there are NO pieces in place. A 1st this year would give my confidence in a rebuild a boost too......is that wrong? Dach is as much a question mark as a sure fire center at this point,I see NHL forward ability but I couldn't even say top six for sure at this point and I don't know how anyone else could either. At 21,top six potential still exists though but if he can't win over 40%(low bar) of his draws,it won't be at center. Reichel has NHL forward potential too,I woulda liked to see some of it when he was up but he could be a good to very good forward if he develops properly. Maybe Mitchelle makes a big improvement and a few of the bigger D-men are for real,do we see a top-pair D-man in our system? The team also seems to have a decent young GT or two but they're hard to call at this point in their careers so that could also be a need. I've read(and wrote) a lot about the 'salted earth' and 'poisoned well' left by DUMBASS as far as a thin prospect pool,no 1st and an upcoming stinker of a contract and I like Jones. If this team is a serious cup contender in five years or less,I'll contribute to a Kyle Davidson statue and refer to Danny as a true visionary.....for ever! |
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Post by BigT on May 14, 2022 10:56:44 GMT -6
I do not possess the powers to predict the future. I’ve stated on here way too many times that history is the best teacher. The blue print is there. Tallon stated that the Hawks need 30 pretty good prospects to sift through. Every team has 30 prospects either in the farm or in the minors. But they’re probably not the grade you need. For example when the Hawks rebuilt they had the likes of Keith, Seabs, Buff, Hammer, Barker, Toews, Kane, Versteeg, Sharp, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer, Dowell, Skille, Ben Smith, Niemi, Wisniewski, Burish, Matt Walker, Colin Fraser, Rene Bourque, Blunden, Hamilton, Parenteau, Nordqvist. And I’m sure there’s a few more. Everyone of those players had a decent career. Maybe not a 14 year career but at least 5-6 years. Which is the average. That list proves that Tallon knew what he was doing and amassed an amazing amount of talent. Yes Sharp and Versteeg were traded for, but they were prospects when they got here. Tallon made a pool of roughly 30 guys to choose from, have competition with, and to trade away. It took from 2002-2007 to amass that much talent. So. I think if the Hawks get to trade most of their assets, the team will be in good shape within 3-4 years as I feel they can be ahead of the curve with the assets they have. I just showed how Tallon did it in a 5 year plan, and I think this current group can get it done within a 4 year plan. Start contending for a playoff spot, then make strides towards the real prize. I don’t think it’s that far off!!! If a few young pieces were already in place,I' be more inclined to agree with you but let's be honest here........If Kane,JT,Cat,Strome and S Jones are all moved,there are NO pieces in place. A 1st this year would give my confidence in a rebuild a boost too......is that wrong? Dach is as much a question mark as a sure fire center at this point,I see NHL forward ability but I couldn't even say top six for sure at this point and I don't know how anyone else could either. At 21,top six potential still exists though but if he can't win over 40%(low bar) of his draws,it won't be at center. Reichel has NHL forward potential too,I woulda liked to see some of it when he was up but he could be a good to very good forward if he develops properly. Maybe Mitchelle makes a big improvement and a few of the bigger D-men are for real,do we see a top-pair D-man in our system? The team also seems to have a decent young GT or two but they're hard to call at this point in their careers so that could also be a need. I've read(and wrote) a lot about the 'salted earth' and 'poisoned well' left by DUMBASS as far as a thin prospect pool,no 1st and an upcoming stinker of a contract and I like Jones. If this team is a serious cup contender in five years or less,I'll contribute to a Kyle Davidson statue and refer to Danny as a true visionary.....for ever! I know this can easily be shut down, and I fully understand this. However, if the Hawks make trades like these. And I don’t mean exactly this but something along the lines of this. It would make me feel much better. Kane to the Rags for Lafreniere and a 1st rounder. Hawks retain Half. Toews to Colorado for Byram and a 1st. Hawks retain Half. Dcat and Beaudin to Anaheim for Drysdale, Comtois and a 1st rounder. If something similar to this were to happen. The Hawks would have Byram, Drysdale, Lafreniere, Comtois, Dach, Reichel, Mitchell, Entwhistle, Vlasic, Regula plus 5 first rounders and a litany of 2nd and 3rds. We could be around 20 kids to choose from really soon. And he very close to what we seen before. Now, add in say a Connor Bedard, and a couple other good picks. Hawks are right on track to my timeline. It’s not that bleak if they move some guys!!! |
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Post by hsbob on May 14, 2022 11:07:14 GMT -6
If a few young pieces were already in place,I' be more inclined to agree with you but let's be honest here........If Kane,JT,Cat,Strome and S Jones are all moved,there are NO pieces in place. A 1st this year would give my confidence in a rebuild a boost too......is that wrong? Dach is as much a question mark as a sure fire center at this point,I see NHL forward ability but I couldn't even say top six for sure at this point and I don't know how anyone else could either. At 21,top six potential still exists though but if he can't win over 40%(low bar) of his draws,it won't be at center. Reichel has NHL forward potential too,I woulda liked to see some of it when he was up but he could be a good to very good forward if he develops properly. Maybe Mitchelle makes a big improvement and a few of the bigger D-men are for real,do we see a top-pair D-man in our system? The team also seems to have a decent young GT or two but they're hard to call at this point in their careers so that could also be a need. I've read(and wrote) a lot about the 'salted earth' and 'poisoned well' left by DUMBASS as far as a thin prospect pool,no 1st and an upcoming stinker of a contract and I like Jones. If this team is a serious cup contender in five years or less,I'll contribute to a Kyle Davidson statue and refer to Danny as a true visionary.....for ever! I know this can easily be shut down, and I fully understand this. However, if the Hawks make trades like these. And I don’t mean exactly this but something along the lines of this. It would make me feel much better. Kane to the Rags for Lafreniere and a 1st rounder. Hawks retain Half. Toews to Colorado for Byram and a 1st. Hawks retain Half. Dcat and Beaudin to Anaheim for Drysdale, Comtois and a 1st rounder. If something similar to this were to happen. The Hawks would have Byram, Drysdale, Lafreniere, Comtois, Dach, Reichel, Mitchell, Entwhistle, Vlasic, Regula plus 5 first rounders and a litany of 2nd and 3rds. We could be around 20 kids to choose from really soon. And he very close to what we seen before. Now, add in say a Connor Bedard, and a couple other good picks. Hawks are right on track to my timeline. It’s not that bleak if they move some guys!!! And if my Aunt had balls,she'd be my Uncle!LOL! That's a LOT of stuff that would have to go right and a BIG return for JT,you make it sound easy. |
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Post by BigT on May 14, 2022 11:36:08 GMT -6
I’ve been in a suite for the last 5 Spitfires games with quite a few that work in the NHL, or have worked. I’m telling that everyone would take Toews at half price. “He’s the ultimate winner”. “Best faceoff guy in the last 20 years”. “Smartest fucking player I’ve ever seen”. “You give up the farm for Johnny Fucking Toews”.
I think it’s safe to say that Toews will not be hard to move. At all. Especially half price. Most even said they put spect Toews to be a 20 goal 35 assist guy for the next few years. Especially on a better team.
I don’t think that’s a lot to go right. I think that’s just taking advantage of their assets. I could see the Kane trade happening. There’s been rumours for a while. Dcat is a great scorer that many teams will want. I could see that trade panning out. I’ve actually heard rumours that Verbeek wants to make a splash and get a couple top players to compliment what they got now.
Again. I cannot predict the future. But keeping all those guys is a massive problem. I feel they need to use asset management. Get ahead of the curve.
I know I was probably annoying with my Scambo bashing all those years. But no one can’t say I wasn’t wrong. Even when they won, I said this guy has sold the Hawks down the River. And it was true.
Tallon laid out his blue print. It worked very well. I’m sure if they follow something along those lines, it’ll work out well again!!!
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Post by phill9 on May 14, 2022 11:44:39 GMT -6
I’ve been in a suite for the last 5 Spitfires games with quite a few that work in the NHL, or have worked. I’m telling that everyone would take Toews at half price. “He’s the ultimate winner”. “Best faceoff guy in the last 20 years”. “Smartest fucking player I’ve ever seen”. “You give up the farm for Johnny Fucking Toews”. I think it’s safe to say that Toews will not be hard to move. At all. Especially half price. Most even said they put spect Toews to be a 20 goal 35 assist guy for the next few years. Especially on a better team. I don’t think that’s a lot to go right. I think that’s just taking advantage of their assets. I could see the Kane trade happening. There’s been rumours for a while. Dcat is a great scorer that many teams will want. I could see that trade panning out. I’ve actually heard rumours that Verbeek wants to make a splash and get a couple top players to compliment what they got now. Again. I cannot predict the future. But keeping all those guys is a massive problem. I feel they need to use asset management. Get ahead of the curve. I know I was probably annoying with my Scambo bashing all those years. But no one can’t say I wasn’t wrong. Even when they won, I said this guy has sold the Hawks down the River. And it was true. Tallon laid out his blue print. It worked very well. I’m sure if they follow something along those lines, it’ll work out well again!!! "No one can't say I wasn't wrong" Oohhhhh, double negative T, now everyone can say you were wrong 😆 🤣 |
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Post by hsbob on May 14, 2022 12:11:18 GMT -6
I’ve been in a suite for the last 5 Spitfires games with quite a few that work in the NHL, or have worked. I’m telling that everyone would take Toews at half price. “He’s the ultimate winner”. “Best faceoff guy in the last 20 years”. “Smartest fucking player I’ve ever seen”. “You give up the farm for Johnny Fucking Toews”. I think it’s safe to say that Toews will not be hard to move. At all. Especially half price. Most even said they put spect Toews to be a 20 goal 35 assist guy for the next few years. Especially on a better team. I don’t think that’s a lot to go right. I think that’s just taking advantage of their assets. I could see the Kane trade happening. There’s been rumours for a while. Dcat is a great scorer that many teams will want. I could see that trade panning out. I’ve actually heard rumours that Verbeek wants to make a splash and get a couple top players to compliment what they got now. Again. I cannot predict the future. But keeping all those guys is a massive problem. I feel they need to use asset management. Get ahead of the curve. I know I was probably annoying with my Scambo bashing all those years. But no one can’t say I wasn’t wrong. Even when they won, I said this guy has sold the Hawks down the River. And it was true. Tallon laid out his blue print. It worked very well. I’m sure if they follow something along those lines, it’ll work out well again!!! You don't have to sing JT's praises to me I went though some SHIT supportin' him! I believe we would find more than one taker for half retained also but I see a more meager return myself......we'll see. It's just "worked out" for so few teams and hasn't for so many and we're basically at ground zero as far as progress toward a rebuild. |
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Post by BigT on May 14, 2022 12:12:18 GMT -6
I’ve been in a suite for the last 5 Spitfires games with quite a few that work in the NHL, or have worked. I’m telling that everyone would take Toews at half price. “He’s the ultimate winner”. “Best faceoff guy in the last 20 years”. “Smartest fucking player I’ve ever seen”. “You give up the farm for Johnny Fucking Toews”. I think it’s safe to say that Toews will not be hard to move. At all. Especially half price. Most even said they put spect Toews to be a 20 goal 35 assist guy for the next few years. Especially on a better team. I don’t think that’s a lot to go right. I think that’s just taking advantage of their assets. I could see the Kane trade happening. There’s been rumours for a while. Dcat is a great scorer that many teams will want. I could see that trade panning out. I’ve actually heard rumours that Verbeek wants to make a splash and get a couple top players to compliment what they got now. Again. I cannot predict the future. But keeping all those guys is a massive problem. I feel they need to use asset management. Get ahead of the curve. I know I was probably annoying with my Scambo bashing all those years. But no one can’t say I wasn’t wrong. Even when they won, I said this guy has sold the Hawks down the River. And it was true. Tallon laid out his blue print. It worked very well. I’m sure if they follow something along those lines, it’ll work out well again!!! "No one can't say I wasn't wrong" Oohhhhh, double negative T, now everyone can say you were wrong 😆 🤣 Hahaha. You’ve got me there buddy. You got me!!! |
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Post by T-man2010 on May 14, 2022 12:35:43 GMT -6
I wonder if at the end of the SCF this year if 30 other teams fans are having the same debate?
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Post by BigT on May 14, 2022 12:54:15 GMT -6
I wonder if at the end of the SCF this year if 30 other teams fans are having the same debate? I’d say 15 of them will and the other 15 want their team to go for it. We want the higher draft picks as they’re needed terribly here. On a side note. Anyone know how an expanded playoff would work? I’ve never looked into that!!! |
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