30
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 25, 2022 11:44:15 GMT -6
If you’re right. The Hawks rebuild won’t start till they let 19/88 walk away free agents. So it won’t even be next year. They’ll decimate the roster a little more, but it won’t be until the top dogs are gone. I just don’t see where good players will come from? Free agents cost too much. We have not much of value to trade except the players we just mentioned. So I have to think they agree to part ways and accept a trade!!! I'll tell ya what T,UFA's just like trades or draft picks are what a team makes of em. The summer of 19 saw DUMBASS trade for grossly overpaid D-men and give away assets on top of it while a non go to Montreal signed Ben Chairot for 3.5M as an URA. He helped the Habs reach the SCF and then brought a ton back in assets when they moved him at the TDL.........we're still payin' Matta and deHAAN-job's untradable. Phillip Denault is also an EXCELLENT UFA signing..........EXCELLENT! We'll pay Tyler 'plastic neck' Johnson a half a million less than Denault the next two years.....YIKES! Chairot was an excellent signing. Signing players to short term flexible deals with no conditions is always the smart move, but it is especially important to a rebuilding team. |
|
|
|
Post by Nikos on Mar 25, 2022 12:26:46 GMT -6
First, I agree building a team down the middle is the smart and prudent approach, however you do not get rid of players that do not fit a certain mold. I also "love Hossa & Sharp" and appreciate what they did for the three cups. Hossa played the 200' game, not show sure Sharp would be in that category, he was a minus player in the 2014-2015 cup season and never scored 40 goals, which D-cat has once already and sure to do this year and more in his future. The cat plays his heart out, defends his teammates and plays bigger than his size. Tell me what else you want the guy to do besides grow 4-5 inches? He is a guy that can beat you with one shot. He is not just a scoring winger, he is an elite scorer. The goals he scores count the same that a "heavy winger" scores driving the net or off deflections. There is nothing else Debrincat can do (other than accept a short term below market contract with no NTC). He is a great scorer, and he plays the right way. But he will never intimidate, even though he engages. He lacks the wingspan to reach around bigger defenders. He works hard defensively, but he lacks the size to angle out opposing scorers. He is a quality player - no doubt - but in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is it. If the Hawks were a few years further along in their rebuild, I would keep him. They aren't. They need help everywhere, but especially on defence. Debrincat has -by far - the most trade value on the team. Contending teams will want him to put them over the top. You trade him now at peak value. You wait until after the next contract, and the asset diminishes dramatically. Big T talks about the problem of team's hovering in that dreaded middle tier where they are neither rebuilding, nor challenging. Let's be honest - Toews has zero trade value until the next deadline (and even then, the return will be disappointing). I keep Kane as opposed to Debrincat because he is likely to sign short term deals moving forward which provides the team some flexibility. Seth Jones can't be traded because of the contract. Dach remains young enough to see through an extended rebuild. Debrincat's contract is up next year which means the team must make a decision. He is certainly able to command a big money long deal deal with a NTC/NMC No players during the early part of a rebuild should be signed to long term NTC/NMC deals. This is the issue and always has been. Ok now we are measuring and discussing wingspan in hockey, usually only hear this in basketball or sometimes in football. You basically are trying to align everything to come together (core to peak before big paydays) and while in theory in sounds fine, chances to execute at near 100% are low. If you have good players you keep and reward them, unless someone gives you a ridiculous haul back. When you subtract a good player remember you have to hopefully draft one or acquire one. Recently the NHL Network did a redraft of the 2016 draft and the Cat was only behind Mathews and M. Tkachuk and ahead of power wingers like Laine, Pierre-Luc Dubois (listed as LW), Puljujarvi, & Tage Thompson. Hypothetical question: If the Hawks had drafted or traded for Laine and he was in the same position as the Cat (RFA) do you keep him and sign to a large contract with the current roster? |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 25, 2022 12:33:21 GMT -6
I do not. The contract (size, length, conditions) remains the big sticking point. Laine is also a scoring winger. His best years are likely right now.
Mathews I would keep because he plays centre. Tkachuk I would keep because he plays the power game. Thompson would be a question (depending on contract demands).
|
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 25, 2022 12:36:47 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 25, 2022 12:42:38 GMT -6
An elite centre might lose some scoring numbers as he ages, but he might make up for it by becoming more defensively responsible and better in other areas such as faceoffs.
Defencemen and goalies take longer to develop and peak later.
Physical forwards put on muscle mass as they age and can continue to be effective in winning board and net front battles.
It is those whose entire game depends on producing offence who are most vulnerable to decreased value as they age. They also tend to command the highest third contracts (through the early UFA years).
|
|
|
|
Post by Nikos on Mar 25, 2022 13:48:49 GMT -6
I do not. The contract (size, length, conditions) remains the big sticking point. Laine is also a scoring winger. His best years are likely right now. Mathews I would keep because he plays centre. Tkachuk I would keep because he plays the power game. Thompson would be a question (depending on contract demands). Ok, so Laine who is 6' 5" is a scoring winger too? So physical size is the not the end all of a power winger then and if DeBrincat played more of a power game at 5' 7" he would be a power winger or is he just incapable of playing due to his size? Just trying to understand how you classify the position. What do you consider a power game? Btw, no argument for keeping Mathews or Tkachuk. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 25, 2022 14:30:59 GMT -6
I do not. The contract (size, length, conditions) remains the big sticking point. Laine is also a scoring winger. His best years are likely right now. Mathews I would keep because he plays centre. Tkachuk I would keep because he plays the power game. Thompson would be a question (depending on contract demands). Ok, so Laine who is 6' 5" is a scoring winger too? So physical size is the not the end all of a power winger then and if DeBrincat played more of a power game at 5' 7" he would be a power winger or is he just incapable of playing due to his size? Just trying to understand how you classify the position. What do you consider a power game? Btw, no argument for keeping Mathews or Tkachuk. A power forward plays a specific role. He is a physical battler whose job it is to win the corners and net-front game, play a hard nosed brand and lead the offense in hits through forechecking assignments. The position requires both above average size (height/weight) and grit - a commitment to engage and use the body as a weapon to intimidate and control geographic space. Power forwards also need to provide some offence. Bickell, Byfuglien and Brouwer were power forwards. So was Hossa (although he also was a scorer). Not all big forwards are power forwards. Laine is primarily a shooter/scorer. He has the wingspan to reach around defenders, but he does not hit much or take on physical assignments. Similarly, Eric Daze was a scorer, but not a power forward despite his enormous size. A small gritty forward like Andrew Shaw is not a power forward because of his size limitation and inability to control geographic space and physically impose his will. Some called Saad a power forward, though he did not hit much, nor did he carry the above-average size or weight required to do the job effectively. I understand that many here like to cheer on the little guy who battles hard. Nevertheless, size matters in hockey, just like it does in every sport. Wrestling and boxing divide their athletes by weight. Nobody seriously wants to see someone competing in the flyweight class competing against a heavyweight. Offensive/Defensive lineman in American football tend to be bigger and heavier than defensive backs. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 26, 2022 8:00:48 GMT -6
There is nothing else Debrincat can do (other than accept a short term below market contract with no NTC). He is a great scorer, and he plays the right way. But he will never intimidate, even though he engages. He lacks the wingspan to reach around bigger defenders. He works hard defensively, but he lacks the size to angle out opposing scorers. He is a quality player - no doubt - but in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is it. If the Hawks were a few years further along in their rebuild, I would keep him. They aren't. They need help everywhere, but especially on defence. Debrincat has -by far - the most trade value on the team. Contending teams will want him to put them over the top. You trade him now at peak value. You wait until after the next contract, and the asset diminishes dramatically. Big T talks about the problem of team's hovering in that dreaded middle tier where they are neither rebuilding, nor challenging. Let's be honest - Toews has zero trade value until the next deadline (and even then, the return will be disappointing). I keep Kane as opposed to Debrincat because he is likely to sign short term deals moving forward which provides the team some flexibility. Seth Jones can't be traded because of the contract. Dach remains young enough to see through an extended rebuild. Debrincat's contract is up next year which means the team must make a decision. He is certainly able to command a big money long deal deal with a NTC/NMC No players during the early part of a rebuild should be signed to long term NTC/NMC deals. This is the issue and always has been. Ok now we are measuring and discussing wingspan in hockey, usually only hear this in basketball or sometimes in football. You basically are trying to align everything to come together (core to peak before big paydays) and while in theory in sounds fine, chances to execute at near 100% are low. If you have good players you keep and reward them, unless someone gives you a ridiculous haul back. When you subtract a good player remember you have to hopefully draft one or acquire one. Recently the NHL Network did a redraft of the 2016 draft and the Cat was only behind Mathews and M. Tkachuk and ahead of power wingers like Laine, Pierre-Luc Dubois (listed as LW), Puljujarvi, & Tage Thompson. Hypothetical question: If the Hawks had drafted or traded for Laine and he was in the same position as the Cat (RFA) do you keep him and sign to a large contract with the current roster? Wingspan or reach is a factor for today's D-men but it means next to nothing to a player who plays D-Cat's game. Size has been NO detriment to the kid's game at any level and he might be one of those rare smaller guys where it's actually an advantage. His hockey smarts or instincts are overlooked but he's learned a LOT from Kane as far as awareness for oncoming checkers and how not to absorb the entire hit and he's proven to be stout and durable when he does absorb the hit. I've complemented the kid about his ability to get up and dust himself off after big hits in the past but if you notice,he doesn't have to much now. NOBODY'S been calling for a power forward more than me BUT you don't replace Alex DeBrincat with a power forward........you complement Alex DeBrincat with a power forward. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 26, 2022 8:24:27 GMT -6
An elite centre might lose some scoring numbers as he ages, but he might make up for it by becoming more defensively responsible and better in other areas such as faceoffs. Defencemen and goalies take longer to develop and peak later. Physical forwards put on muscle mass as they age and can continue to be effective in winning board and net front battles. It is those whose entire game depends on producing offence who are most vulnerable to decreased value as they age. They also tend to command the highest third contracts (through the early UFA years). One of the advantages to size IS durability and I mention that myself but conditioning and other factors like the more demanding nature of some positions over others enters into things as does a players proven ability to stay healthy. The bigger stronger Toews has shown his age faster than the smaller Kane due to the rigors of the center position and the bigger stronger Seabs showed his faster than the smaller but unbelievably conditioned Keith. It was always hard to really line Dunks up with a big hit after he had a little experience and some guys lost interest after Dunks started givin' out 'two-handers',hard to really line Kaner up too and I remember him going through a little slashing phase himself after a few he didn't avoid. The Cat's smart and he's learned from Kane and Keith as far as not absorbing the brunt of a hit and it helps when you can skate like Kane and Keith too.......he's yet to miss a game to injury! I hate to see it at this point but Dach still gets plastered about every third game,he's got a bigger frame by far but he'll have to learn to avoid the brunt of those hits too if he's gonna stay healthy......bigger frame or no bigger frame. You make it sound like any winger who pots 30 or more offers little to nothing else and that's just not true IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by OldTimeHawky on Mar 26, 2022 10:26:57 GMT -6
An elite centre might lose some scoring numbers as he ages, but he might make up for it by becoming more defensively responsible and better in other areas such as faceoffs. Defencemen and goalies take longer to develop and peak later. Physical forwards put on muscle mass as they age and can continue to be effective in winning board and net front battles. It is those whose entire game depends on producing offence who are most vulnerable to decreased value as they age. They also tend to command the highest third contracts (through the early UFA years). One of the advantages to size IS durability and I mention that myself but conditioning and other factors like the more demanding nature of some positions over others enters into things as does a players proven ability to stay healthy. The bigger stronger Toews has shown his age faster than the smaller Kane due to the rigors of the center position and the bigger stronger Seabs showed his faster than the smaller but unbelievably conditioned Keith. It was always hard to really line Dunks up with a big hit after he had a little experience and some guys lost interest after Dunks started givin' out 'two-handers',hard to really line Kaner up too and I remember him going through a little slashing phase himself after a few he didn't avoid. The Cat's smart and he's learned from Kane and Keith as far as not absorbing the brunt of a hit and it helps when you can skate like Kane and Keith too.......he's yet to miss a game to injury! I hate to see it at this point but Dach still gets plastered about every third game,he's got a bigger frame by far but he'll have to learn to avoid the brunt of those hits too if he's gonna stay healthy......bigger frame or no bigger frame. You make it sound like any winger who pots 30 or more offers little to nothing else and that's just not true IMO. I stopped taking about Debrincat with MVR because he thinks he's just a small scorer with "average at best" defense, and now bringing up wingspan makes no sense because Dach had the biggest wingspan in his dtaft class, how's that working out for him? Helps with take aways but that's it. And Debrincat often outworks guys with a much bigger wingspan and comes away with the puck.. We know Debrincat isn't an average scoring winger so it doesn't make sense why he keeps talking about how most guys careers project. Plus it says a lot that we've both wanted a powerforward on the top 6 for a while now but we both like Debrincat and what he brings physically. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 26, 2022 13:16:15 GMT -6
An elite centre might lose some scoring numbers as he ages, but he might make up for it by becoming more defensively responsible and better in other areas such as faceoffs. Defencemen and goalies take longer to develop and peak later. Physical forwards put on muscle mass as they age and can continue to be effective in winning board and net front battles. It is those whose entire game depends on producing offence who are most vulnerable to decreased value as they age. They also tend to command the highest third contracts (through the early UFA years). One of the advantages to size IS durability and I mention that myself but conditioning and other factors like the more demanding nature of some positions over others enters into things as does a players proven ability to stay healthy. The bigger stronger Toews has shown his age faster than the smaller Kane due to the rigors of the center position and the bigger stronger Seabs showed his faster than the smaller but unbelievably conditioned Keith. It was always hard to really line Dunks up with a big hit after he had a little experience and some guys lost interest after Dunks started givin' out 'two-handers',hard to really line Kaner up too and I remember him going through a little slashing phase himself after a few he didn't avoid. The Cat's smart and he's learned from Kane and Keith as far as not absorbing the brunt of a hit and it helps when you can skate like Kane and Keith too.......he's yet to miss a game to injury! I hate to see it at this point but Dach still gets plastered about every third game,he's got a bigger frame by far but he'll have to learn to avoid the brunt of those hits too if he's gonna stay healthy......bigger frame or no bigger frame. You make it sound like any winger who pots 30 or more offers little to nothing else and that's just not true IMO. You make a good point here. Durability is very hard to predict. Some players become more physically fragile as they age. Others don't. Surely, some of this is about genetics and just good luck. But the wear and tear of pressure game experience also plays a role. We know many of the Hawks' core - Seabrook, Toews, Hjalmarsson especially - aged out of their peak far earlier than is typical. Hossa and Kane lasted much longer. Hossa played few important games the first half of his career in Atlanta and Ottawa. Kane, for the most part, has somehow avoided serious injury (other than to his collarbone in 2015). I believe the Hawks' lack of team size during the later cup years prematurely aged many of the core players such as Seabrook and Toews. The few larger players on those cup runs had no choice but to engage physically with opposing teams in those brutal playoff rounds against San Jose and LA because Little Bowman provided no support players with size to provide the necessary pushback. The Hawks played the equivalent of a season-and-a-half just about every year from 2008-2015. I am certain the long schedule also wore some of the guys down. Clearly, this is not a concern with the present roster. Debrincat, for example, has played almost no important games in his entire NHL career so far. When a team is not fighting for a playoff position, the opponent will relax and play down to its competition. Most of the present Hawk games these days are passionless, low-pressure, low-hit affairs. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 26, 2022 13:39:06 GMT -6
One of the advantages to size IS durability and I mention that myself but conditioning and other factors like the more demanding nature of some positions over others enters into things as does a players proven ability to stay healthy. The bigger stronger Toews has shown his age faster than the smaller Kane due to the rigors of the center position and the bigger stronger Seabs showed his faster than the smaller but unbelievably conditioned Keith. It was always hard to really line Dunks up with a big hit after he had a little experience and some guys lost interest after Dunks started givin' out 'two-handers',hard to really line Kaner up too and I remember him going through a little slashing phase himself after a few he didn't avoid. The Cat's smart and he's learned from Kane and Keith as far as not absorbing the brunt of a hit and it helps when you can skate like Kane and Keith too.......he's yet to miss a game to injury! I hate to see it at this point but Dach still gets plastered about every third game,he's got a bigger frame by far but he'll have to learn to avoid the brunt of those hits too if he's gonna stay healthy......bigger frame or no bigger frame. You make it sound like any winger who pots 30 or more offers little to nothing else and that's just not true IMO. I stopped taking about Debrincat with MVR because he thinks he's just a small scorer with "average at best" defense, and now bringing up wingspan makes no sense because Dach had the biggest wingspan in his dtaft class, how's that working out for him? Helps with take aways but that's it. And Debrincat often outworks guys with a much bigger wingspan and comes away with the puck.. We know Debrincat isn't an average scoring winger so it doesn't make sense why he keeps talking about how most guys careers project. Plus it says a lot that we've both wanted a powerforward on the top 6 for a while now but we both like Debrincat and what he brings physically. Dach just turned 21 and is learning the two-way centre position, which is an extremely tough role. His scoring numbers are not great (and he still needs to learn how to take a faceoff). But let's not panic yet. His defence is already very solid for a player his age. There is plenty of potential here. Big players do take longer to develop for a variety or reasons. Dach will never be an 80 point guy, but we all should have known that when he was drafted. I expect after he fills out and gains some strength he will be a 50-60 point guy - a terrific two-way second line centre who controls the middle of the ice and provides the power game - a Handzus/Hanzal -plus type. He will never be as good as Toews, but how many will? I like what Debrincat provides physically. Considering his size, he plays very hard (just like Hagel and Shaw) and gets everything he can for what he is able. But his size does limit what he can do, and to want it not to be true does not make it so. Many teams are kicking themselves, but there was a reason why this player was overlooked by every team in his draft year. We all knew he could score. By loading up Debrincat with Strome and Kane the coach has improved all three players' scoring numbers dramatically. But that line is barely maintaining a zero plus/minus rating. They give up as many or more than they score even strength just about every night. Not one of them is strong defensively. |
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 26, 2022 13:58:53 GMT -6
But of course the real key about Dach vs Debrincat is contract.
Dach is likely going to get a bridge contract at or about $4 M/year for three years (and he will certainly get better).
Debrincat is due for his third contract next year (the one which puts him into his UFA years). He will likely be able to command max years (8) and max dollars (at least $9M/year with a NMC). He is almost certainly going to decline over that time given what we know from the research (hockey-graphs.com/2017/03/23/a-new-look-at-aging-curves-for-nhl-skaters-part-1/).
As a rebuilding team, do you pay big dollars for a player who is already peaking? Or do you trade him for future assets?
Again this is the issue. I am not saying Debrincat is not a good player. He works hard, plays as physical as he can considering his size. His defence is better than Kane's (at least at this stage in Kane's career).
|
|
|
|
debrincat
Mar 27, 2022 7:23:22 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by BigT on Mar 27, 2022 7:23:22 GMT -6
MVR. I only think you label Dach a 2 way center is because he doesn’t score. He’s putting in the effort in the offensive zone. But the game is just too fast for him. He’s also the last guy back on many occasions.
All in all. We’d all want him to work out. Next year is the last kick at the can until he will need to be traded. So there’s no point making excuses for the kid. He’s not learning the 2 way center game. He’s learning how to play NHL hockey and it’s not going well. There’s not much evidence of him being this 2 way center. He’s just struggling with most aspects of the game. Especially scoring!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 27, 2022 7:51:36 GMT -6
MVR. I only think you label Dach a 2 way center is because he doesn’t score. He’s putting in the effort in the offensive zone. But the game is just too fast for him. He’s also the last guy back on many occasions. All in all. We’d all want him to work out. Next year is the last kick at the can until he will need to be traded. So there’s no point making excuses for the kid. He’s not learning the 2 way center game. He’s learning how to play NHL hockey and it’s not going well. There’s not much evidence of him being this 2 way center. He’s just struggling with most aspects of the game. Especially scoring!!! He has a long way to go. No doubt. I see the raw skills. No way I give up on him yet. Dach will be cheap for a few years still. There is no point in trading him until he approaches that third contract. Strome is just now coming around. He is 26. His third contract should be very reasonable considering the short track record of real success. No doubt Little Bowman damaged Dach's development and confidence by rushing him to the show. It is frustrating. |
|
|
|
debrincat
Mar 27, 2022 8:04:34 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by BigT on Mar 27, 2022 8:04:34 GMT -6
MVR. I only think you label Dach a 2 way center is because he doesn’t score. He’s putting in the effort in the offensive zone. But the game is just too fast for him. He’s also the last guy back on many occasions. All in all. We’d all want him to work out. Next year is the last kick at the can until he will need to be traded. So there’s no point making excuses for the kid. He’s not learning the 2 way center game. He’s learning how to play NHL hockey and it’s not going well. There’s not much evidence of him being this 2 way center. He’s just struggling with most aspects of the game. Especially scoring!!! He has a long way to go. No doubt. I see the raw skills. No way I give up on him yet. Dach will be cheap for a few years still. There is no point in trading him until he approaches that third contract. Strome is just now coming around. He is 26. His third contract should be very reasonable considering the short track record of real success. No doubt Little Bowman damaged Dach's development and confidence by rushing him to the show. It is frustrating. For example. Look at Brassard. He’s a one way center. Little scoring and a lot of defense. Look at Danault. He finally got a chance to show his offensive side due to Kopitar being there. He no longer has to be a one dimensional Center. He has 21 goals this year and has emerged as a solid #2, two way center. All at the 5 million range. I wouldn’t be giving up on Dach. But I’d be looking for a GM that has similar thoughts as you and get a piece I need before he goes further down the rabbit hole. I’d rather he just develops. But he’s having the same amount of success as 2 seasons ago. Which isn’t very inspiring. Gotta see something!!! |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 27, 2022 8:16:35 GMT -6
One of the advantages to size IS durability and I mention that myself but conditioning and other factors like the more demanding nature of some positions over others enters into things as does a players proven ability to stay healthy. The bigger stronger Toews has shown his age faster than the smaller Kane due to the rigors of the center position and the bigger stronger Seabs showed his faster than the smaller but unbelievably conditioned Keith. It was always hard to really line Dunks up with a big hit after he had a little experience and some guys lost interest after Dunks started givin' out 'two-handers',hard to really line Kaner up too and I remember him going through a little slashing phase himself after a few he didn't avoid. The Cat's smart and he's learned from Kane and Keith as far as not absorbing the brunt of a hit and it helps when you can skate like Kane and Keith too.......he's yet to miss a game to injury! I hate to see it at this point but Dach still gets plastered about every third game,he's got a bigger frame by far but he'll have to learn to avoid the brunt of those hits too if he's gonna stay healthy......bigger frame or no bigger frame. You make it sound like any winger who pots 30 or more offers little to nothing else and that's just not true IMO. You make a good point here. Durability is very hard to predict. Some players become more physically fragile as they age. Others don't. Surely, some of this is about genetics and just good luck. But the wear and tear of pressure game experience also plays a role. We know many of the Hawks' core - Seabrook, Toews, Hjalmarsson especially - aged out of their peak far earlier than is typical. Hossa and Kane lasted much longer. Hossa played few important games the first half of his career in Atlanta and Ottawa. Kane, for the most part, has somehow avoided serious injury (other than to his collarbone in 2015). I believe the Hawks' lack of team size during the later cup years prematurely aged many of the core players such as Seabrook and Toews. The few larger players on those cup runs had no choice but to engage physically with opposing teams in those brutal playoff rounds against San Jose and LA because Little Bowman provided no support players with size to provide the necessary pushback. The Hawks played the equivalent of a season-and-a-half just about every year from 2008-2015. I am certain the long schedule also wore some of the guys down. Clearly, this is not a concern with the present roster. Debrincat, for example, has played almost no important games in his entire NHL career so far. When a team is not fighting for a playoff position, the opponent will relax and play down to its competition. Most of the present Hawk games these days are passionless, low-pressure, low-hit affairs. Your last sentence might refer to the majority of the team but Kane,Cat and JT still play the game with passion and so does Strome now that he gets to play. The guy had 51pts in 58gms when he got here with D-Cat and he's back near a point a game pace now that now that a punk coach is gone. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 27, 2022 8:51:46 GMT -6
I stopped taking about Debrincat with MVR because he thinks he's just a small scorer with "average at best" defense, and now bringing up wingspan makes no sense because Dach had the biggest wingspan in his dtaft class, how's that working out for him? Helps with take aways but that's it. And Debrincat often outworks guys with a much bigger wingspan and comes away with the puck.. We know Debrincat isn't an average scoring winger so it doesn't make sense why he keeps talking about how most guys careers project. Plus it says a lot that we've both wanted a powerforward on the top 6 for a while now but we both like Debrincat and what he brings physically. Dach just turned 21 and is learning the two-way centre position, which is an extremely tough role. His scoring numbers are not great (and he still needs to learn how to take a faceoff). But let's not panic yet. His defence is already very solid for a player his age. There is plenty of potential here. Big players do take longer to develop for a variety or reasons. Dach will never be an 80 point guy, but we all should have known that when he was drafted. I expect after he fills out and gains some strength he will be a 50-60 point guy - a terrific two-way second line centre who controls the middle of the ice and provides the power game - a Handzus/Hanzal -plus type. He will never be as good as Toews, but how many will? I like what Debrincat provides physically. Considering his size, he plays very hard (just like Hagel and Shaw) and gets everything he can for what he is able. But his size does limit what he can do, and to want it not to be true does not make it so. Many teams are kicking themselves, but there was a reason why this player was overlooked by every team in his draft year. We all knew he could score. By loading up Debrincat with Strome and Kane the coach has improved all three players' scoring numbers dramatically. But that line is barely maintaining a zero plus/minus rating. They give up as many or more than they score even strength just about every night. Not one of them is strong defensively. Alex DeBrincat isn't limited by his size in any way shape or form.............no offense but do you still watch the games? Let's concentrate on Dach for now,he's one game away from his rookie total and he has same number of goals....8...2 on the PP and the same number of points 23. He has taken more penalties and his FO% has actually dropped over the last two years. One of those years was marred by injury....this one has been healthy. Dach's defense is better but he's not the juggernaut you make him out to be,he's good defensively and if he wasn't he'd be in Rockford. His offense and FO's are a major disappointment (at this point),Zegras,Cozens and Sieder are all also big kids who have had none of the issues with their development. That draft will be looked back upon as a BIG mistake when we see the players who were taken after Dach.....dam shame. edit: To be fair Dach does deserve another full season for a fair and thorough assessment IMO and I'd like to know other's expectations for the #3 overall who turns 22 during the during the upcoming season. |
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 27, 2022 10:02:25 GMT -6
I said the kid will be a 50 assist winger and I have as much 'faith' in that statement as I ever have. He possesses elite passing skills that are now becoming apparent every game as he continues to improve in every area. His 25 assists on the year are more of a reflection of the lack of finishers for those SWEET DISHES than the dishes themselves. How many times did he send Kubalik in alone in the 3rd and he simply wouldn't be denied once LV tied it up......he coulda had a hattie with a little luck.
You can't stop Alex Debincat......you can only hope to contain him.
Does the chemistry Kane has with D-Cat match the chemistry Kane had with the Breadman? Panarin's still a better playmaker but D-Cat's a much better goal scorer and a better all-around player. Six years younger and 5 million bucks cheaper.....for now.
|
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 28, 2022 8:29:30 GMT -6
Basic physics:
Force = mass x acceleration.
Smaller players lack mass. The will might be there, but the mass is not. It is what it is.
|
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 28, 2022 8:33:29 GMT -6
Area = length x width.
This is why you look for flexible goalies over 6'4" and 230 pounds plus. They cover more ground even when not moving.
|
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 28, 2022 9:06:34 GMT -6
Going through life as a big oaf,I always went along with the good big man beats the good little man train of thought but there are roles in sports that belie that IMO. I guess height can help the 1st baseman in MLB or maybe a pitcher too but MLB like hockey has always been the domain of the averaged sized athlete. Hockey HoF'rs haven't had to be seven footers or three hundred pounders to excel. I know hockey unlike MLB is considered a full contact sport and it sure is but that's NEVER stopped the averaged sized player from excelling and it never will.
If we built a hockey player in a lab,we'd end up with an Alex Ovechkin as far as skill and size every time but here is no such lab.
The era of the sub 6' goaltender is of course long gone and the 6'4" plus D-Man is often successful in today's game due to his size and reach,bigger bodied players can also be more durable but the bigger guys get hurt too.
We can do all the 'Beautiful mind' type chalk board equations we want but we'll get paralysis by analysis before we can point out a single area where D-Cat's game is adversely affected by his size. It may very well be a non-issue for D-Cat the way it's been for Kane and many other elite players.
I want bigger/tougher players too but I want them to compliment a Kane or a D-Cat.....not instead of a Kane or a D-Cat.
|
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Mar 28, 2022 9:15:19 GMT -6
Bob. That may be the best post you’ve ever had. Very nice post there!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by hsbob on Mar 28, 2022 9:40:23 GMT -6
Bob. That may be the best post you’ve ever had. Very nice post there!!! Rare moment of clarity......I think it's passed!LOL! |
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Mar 28, 2022 11:43:52 GMT -6
There’s an article today in the Athletic called “ Alex DeBrincat, Patrick Kane may be greatest obstacles to Blackhawks’ rebuilding plans“.
Unfortunately. I have to agree with the article. Not a fan of losing those two. But you can only build around one guy. Dcat. I don’t see any other path forward. They’ll have to move them both if they want to truly rebuild in a timely manner. If they keep both and Toews. Good chance that the Hawks pick out of the top 10 for the foreseeable future.
So again. I know they’re popular, I know they’re great players. But if this takes 10 more years due to keeping them around. Is it really worth it? I think it’s best to use asset management here and get all that you can for them. It’ll speed things up and start the healing.
If the Hawks are truly going to rebuild. I don’t see how keeping guys around will get the Hawks to where they need to.
Remember, it’s not a retool, it’s a rebuild. So I think those players may have to be moved. And it’s not about their age. It’s about getting more better players for one player. Asset management!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by puterwiz62 on Mar 28, 2022 15:09:44 GMT -6
Definitely worth trading both in the off season as both will bring back a big haul. The Hawks need to gather as many picks and prospects as possible to retool the pipeline and that will require trading the two top assets for a bunch of assets - picks and prospects. You trade them while their values are at their highest to get the most back for them. A rebuild means to completely tear down and build from scratch and that is what needs to be done. Let's hope the Hawks stick to their plans of a full rebuild. This summer will be very telling if the Hawks have the right GM or not.
|
|
|
|
Post by T-man2010 on Mar 28, 2022 15:13:11 GMT -6
Watch for a lot of moves at the draft.
|
|
|
|
debrincat
Mar 28, 2022 16:03:18 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by BigT on Mar 28, 2022 16:03:18 GMT -6
One trade I’d heavily look to do is Dcat to Columbus for the Hawks 1st rounder back and Kent Johnson. I think that gets the Hawks heading in the right direction.
Then trade Kane to the Rags for a 1st, Lafreniere, and another prospect. Hawks retain half.
Toews to Colorado for a 1st and Bowen Byram.
If three moves like that are made. It immensely speeds up a rebuild. The three players mentioned are a #5, #1 and a #4 overall respectively. That plus the picks will help immensely. Then the Hawks just need a couple years at the bottom and things should be ok!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by mvr on Mar 28, 2022 16:55:51 GMT -6
Trade Debrincat and the others (if they want to go) for young defencemen and centres (Byfield, Turcotte, Power, Byram etc.) Then draft more defencemen and centres this year and next.
The time to acquire scoring wingers comes after the other positions have been settled.
We want the next generation to emerge together at the same time (in the same window), just like last time.
Wingers mature earlier than centres and defencemen. Teams do not need to develop them for long because the position carries fewer responsibilities. Kane was ready to go as an 18-year-old and a star a year later. Debrincat is peaking already at age 24. Panarin hit the ground running in his rookie year. Hagel was a solid player the day he arrived. So was Kubalik.
|
|
|
|
Post by BigT on Mar 29, 2022 5:45:03 GMT -6
Last night was a perfect on display reason why this team needs a total rebuild. Sure a few are fun to watch, but there’s not enough here to win. Needing 8-9 better players is very hard to achieve.
The best thing to do is to rip this thing right down, take the 5 years and build her back up. If asset management is used properly, it’ll happen quicker.
If anyone remembers the late 90s. All assets were traded for lesser assets to try and keep fans coming. Like Roenick for Zhamnov. Lost Amonte for nothing. Cheli was the only one traded for anything. And they failed on that.
Fast forward 2 decades. Scambo did the same thing. Constantly downgraded the roster in every trade. Now the management team has to get the most for its assets. Before it’s too late. History is the best teacher. If 19/88 leave as free agents. The loss will be colossal.
Even the Ottawa Senators took full advantage of their assets. In the last 15 years they’ve rebuilt twice, it didn’t take very long due to them always trading their assets to get picks and prospects. It’s not popular at the time. But it pans out!!!
|
|
