2020 Blackhawks draft

[Tater]

Oct 30, 2020 16:12:43 GMT -6 mvr said:

For the most part, the strategy has been a failure. My position is that the problem is primarily socio-economic. College-bound hockey players tend to come from high income families. These players have largely not had to deal with much adversity in their lives.   Instead, they spend their formative years with free scholarship rides and easy money while attending college. 

I'm not defending college hockey, because like most I feel the OHL... produce much better players. But I don't believe most college-bound players come from high income families, and if they do it's due to their families wealth. Full-scholarships are available for any good player, it's not based on their income.

[mvr]

Bob chooses to reduce my argument and imply I have a bias about national identity.

I don't.

Many Canadian kids choose to go to American Colleges to play hockey rather than play in the Junior Leagues. I would not focus on them at the draft either.

When a teenage kid is provided with a sheltered environment and big money during his key development years, it is not surprising to me that he does not focus in the same way as other kids playing in small town rinks and living with a boarder.

One kid loses his hunger. The other does not.

Attending college in the big US hockey programs is very expensive. Playing hockey is expensive. The college programs tend to be filled with kids from elite socio-economic backgrounds. The junior hockey programs tend to get the other kids.

Patrick Kane came from a wealthy background, But he lived and played with blue-collar kids when he was 17. I believe this experience was good for him and an eye-opener of how privileged he was.

I would not totally exclude the US college system when drafting. But I certainly would avoid it for the most part and instead focus on the CHL and Europe.

It is not about nationalism. It is about class.

[mvr]

Among wealth advisors, there is a saying: the first generation makes it, the second generation spends it, and the third generation blows it.

If this is true, and I believe it is largely true, which social group would make the best hockey player? You know what I think.

[mvr]

I would also be looking for players who are pursuing their own dreams, not their fathers.

[hsbob]

Oct 31, 2020 6:08:28 GMT -6 mvr said:

Bob chooses to reduce my argument and imply I have a bias about national identity.

I don't.

Many Canadian kids choose to go to American Colleges to play hockey rather than play in the Junior Leagues. I would not focus on them at the draft either.

When a teenage kid is provided with a sheltered environment and big money during his key development years, it is not surprising to me that he does not focus in the same way as other kids playing in small town rinks and living with a boarder.

One kid loses his hunger. The other does not.

Attending college in the big US hockey programs is very expensive. Playing hockey is expensive. The college programs tend to be filled with kids from elite socio-economic backgrounds. The junior hockey programs tend to get the other kids.

Patrick Kane came from a wealthy background, But he lived and played with blue-collar kids when he was 17. I believe this experience was good for him and an eye-opener of how privileged he was.

I would not totally exclude the US college system when drafting. But I certainly would avoid it for the most part and instead focus on the CHL and Europe.

It is not about nationalism. It is about class.

Well then I won't reduce your argument.......let's expand it.
You say that you don't hate US players and I'll take you at your word but every post you make on the subject,including the one I'm replying to continues to insult the NCAA hockey systems. 
You say NCAA players are sheltered.........what do CHL kids have to do other than play hockey? Of course a kid can focus on hockey only when he doesn't have to attend classes or worry about making grades.  
You say NCAA kids are showered with money .......by who? You know these are amateurs....right? You know they go on scholarships.......right? 

You go on an on questioning these kids character,commitment and drive and that's an unfair generalization and you know it.

You also refuse to answer who pays for all the poor and middle class Canadian kid's equipment and the over all thousands of dollars it costs to play here or there. Does the Canadian government subsidize hockey up there? The Provincial government? 

Believe it or not,I didn't go to college,I have no favoritism for those who do/did and we also agree on the class/ideology issues you mentioned in another post. I just don't think generalizing that every NCAA kid,is lazy,spoiled,unmotivated and whatever other slights you continue to exhibit are fair. 
 
I'm not sure it's fair to portray every CHL kid as hard working,nose to the grindstone,lunch pail kids either......I'm sure there's plenty of prima donnas in both systems.
You paint this issue with a broad brush and an intelligent guy like you is well aware of that. 
   

[hsbob]

Oct 31, 2020 7:46:58 GMT -6 mvr said:

Among wealth advisors, there is a saying: the first generation makes it, the second generation spends it, and the third generation blows it.

If this is true, and I believe it is largely true, which social group would make the best hockey player? You know what I think.

So you're saying a Canadian kid's family doesn't have to have bucks to put their kid through Canadian programs? Who pays then?

You're fighting a culture war on the backs of kids who are just tryin' to play hockey and get an education at the same time.

[hsbob]

Oct 31, 2020 8:07:20 GMT -6 mvr said:

I would also be looking for players who are pursuing their own dreams, not their fathers.

Are you seriously saying Canadian fathers don't push their sons to play hockey too? You have no way of knowing what motivates any of these kids and I'm sure those motivations vary regardless of where they play. 

[BigT]

MVR. I have to think 75% of families that put their kids through travel hockey are middle to to upper middle class. There really aren’t many poor people that can afford this. It is becoming like golf, an elitist type sport. Either side, can’t blame the kids for their parents income level. However, you can absolutely blame their parents for their upbringing. If they allow their kid to be a spoiled idiot. Then You would be correct. Absolutely correct. I don’t think kids have less hunger the more income their parents have. At the end of the day, the kid has to want it.

There are always stories of privileged kids. Mike Comrie comes to mind. His dad is a billionaire and literally would use his position as o get his kid to play on certain teams and even hassled the Oilers about his kids playing time. So they traded him. I don’t think Mike Comrie wanted it less than other kids. He was a good player. I think the side show of his dad became even too much for him and he retired early. It happens. Just not on the scale you are saying.

Again, it comes down to a kids upbringing. Whether their parents own a farm ( which can be very wealthy), or they own a machine shop, or are a factory worker or have a desk job. If you raise your kids to walk all over you, they’ll do it to everyone!!!

[hsbob]

Oct 30, 2020 22:39:04 GMT -6 BigT said:

Oct 30, 2020 18:05:16 GMT -6 hsbob said:

So it's not Americans in general you just have a hard on for college kids? 

I know I’m known for not liking the NCAA. But I will say this. If my kid was going to be a 3rd or 4th liner at best in the OHL, would it be worth it for my kid to do the same in the NCAA and get a free education? Of course it would. And a lot of people make those choices. I just don’t care for the development side in the NCAA. There’s only 34 games a year. And a handful of playoff type games. I feel the OHL is a better development league for the 68 game schedule plus an NHL style playoffs. I feel the crowds are bigger than what I’ve seen in the NCAA, though I’m sure some bigger schools get solid crowds. If a kid stays 4 years in the OHL, or CHL, they’ll 19 or 20 when they get out. In NCAA they’ll be 22 or 23. I feel that’s too old to be playing at that level and I’d rather a drafted kid go to the AHL at age 20.

I’m not even saying I’m right. I’m just saying that’s what I’d prefer. I’m sure there’s guys who played 4 years in college and made the NHL. I believe Parise played 3. Same as Gomez I believe. And they’re both solid players. Some of the best. But in general, I’d prefer the CHL route if that’s an option!!!

I think we're all aware how we feel about this issue and I've always admitted the OHL/CFL is still the best feeder system in the world. I just think referring to every NCAA kid as lazy,uncommitted and more interested in partying than their sport as some have is an unfair generalization.

[T-man2010]

I commend the kids that go to college and at least get an education just incase their hockey career dreams don't work out.

Like John Scott got his degree by studying on the bus traveling from game to games in the minors. He got a back-up plan.

[ebonyraptor]

A pretty good spirited debate on NCAA v CHL. I know "T" has expressed his position many times over the years and I tend to agree with his position that the CHL is a better development league than the NCAA. I also think the unique circumstances of each young player plays a role in the best path for that player - but if the player hopes to play professionally some day, then the best path is the CHL more often than not. In my opinion.

[BigT]

Oct 31, 2020 8:35:14 GMT -6 hsbob said:

Oct 30, 2020 22:39:04 GMT -6 BigT said:

I know I’m known for not liking the NCAA. But I will say this. If my kid was going to be a 3rd or 4th liner at best in the OHL, would it be worth it for my kid to do the same in the NCAA and get a free education? Of course it would. And a lot of people make those choices. I just don’t care for the development side in the NCAA. There’s only 34 games a year. And a handful of playoff type games. I feel the OHL is a better development league for the 68 game schedule plus an NHL style playoffs. I feel the crowds are bigger than what I’ve seen in the NCAA, though I’m sure some bigger schools get solid crowds. If a kid stays 4 years in the OHL, or CHL, they’ll 19 or 20 when they get out. In NCAA they’ll be 22 or 23. I feel that’s too old to be playing at that level and I’d rather a drafted kid go to the AHL at age 20.

I’m not even saying I’m right. I’m just saying that’s what I’d prefer. I’m sure there’s guys who played 4 years in college and made the NHL. I believe Parise played 3. Same as Gomez I believe. And they’re both solid players. Some of the best. But in general, I’d prefer the CHL route if that’s an option!!!

I think we're all aware how we feel about this issue and I've always admitted the OHL/CFL is still the best feeder system in the world. I just think referring to every NCAA kid as lazy,uncommitted and more interested in partying than their sport as some have is an unfair generalization.

I fully agree. I’ve stated this before. I’d rather the US hockey look to expand the or merge the USHL, the NAHL, USTDP and make a jr hockey league. Let kids stay till 20, or if they feel the NCAA is better, go there at 18 or 19 or even 20. Like I’ve said. The NCAA is great for 18/19 years olds. But once they’re 20 or older, the AHL would be better suited for them as far as development goes. I think every country needs their own system so not all kids have to travel super far from home to play hockey!!!

[mvr]

Bob: I am not one to make absolutist statements. The world is full of shades of grey.

As a general rule, I would be spending the majority of my draft picks on CHL players and Europeans and not college kids. I would look at their socio-economic backgrounds and tend to select players who have earned where they are based on their own work rather than their parents' money.

It is Bowman and his team that has chosen to slant their draft preferences heavily in favour of NCAA players ([perhaps as a proportion of picks more than any other organization in the NHL). I believe this has been the wrong choice. Very few of the mid and late round picks have amounted to anything worth while in over a decade.

Most of these players (but not all) come from money. This is how they get there. Most have their education and spending money provided to them generously by the universities through scholarships and their parents (through allowance).

This is not a black and white absolute. But it is certainly a trend.

I have often stated a preference for trading down to add more picks. The best approach when entering a lottery is to have the most picks and to draw your selections from the buckets which contain the most potential hits.

I am a university graduate from a fairly fortunate socio-economic background. I know that this background has softened me and caused me to become distracted at times. I did not work work as hard as others paying their entire own way through.

Similarly, Stan Bowman grew up with many opportunities handed to him. He did not have to work his way to the top in the same way as many of his peers. I believe he is biased in favour of players with a familiar background to him.

[mvr]

If my boy was good at sports (he is not), I would encourage him to get his education.

The odds of him succeeding as a pro athlete are very low.

[vadarx]

I'm only going to make a post here because I read something here that I have to comment on.

you would be wrong about Kane, mvr. he didn't learn shit.

[mvr]

Perhaps not, Vadarx.

Hockey players do not have to be good human beings. They have to be mentally tough and willing to go to war. Sociopaths and narcissists might make better hockey players than the well-adjusted.

If I am an Human Resources manager hiring for most other jobs, I'm looking at college graduates. The more education a person can achieve, the better.... It is a tragedy when politicians push populist, anti-intellectual agendas.

Bowman, on the other hand, is looking for hockey players.

Tim O'Brien, the great Vietnam war veteran, wrote an insightful book of short stories about his experiences. I particularly recommend the story, "The Man I Killed."

It takes a certain kind of person to manage their emotions in battle. I know I would not do well.

[shooter61]

Their is no doubt that the CHL lands more NHL players than the NCAA, but you can't ignore the presence that NCAA players have made to the NHL, I don't believe that they drafted NCAA players that they didn't believe were the best pick at the time, I think they still are picking the best player available , with the highest upside , no matter where they played,

[hsbob]

Oct 31, 2020 10:20:32 GMT -6 mvr said:

Bob: I am not one to make absolutist statements. The world is full of shades of grey.

As a general rule, I would be spending the majority of my draft picks on CHL players and Europeans and not college kids. I would look at their socio-economic backgrounds and tend to select players who have earned where they are based on their own work rather than their parents' money.

It is Bowman and his team that has chosen to slant their draft preferences heavily in favour of NCAA players ([perhaps as a proportion of picks more than any other organization in the NHL). I believe this has been the wrong choice. Very few of the mid and late round picks have amounted to anything worth while in over a decade.

Most of these players (but not all) come from money. This is how they get there. Most have their education and spending money provided to them generously by the universities through scholarships and their parents (through allowance).

This is not a black and white absolute. But it is certainly a trend.

I have often stated a preference for trading down to add more picks. The best approach when entering a lottery is to have the most picks and to draw your selections from the buckets which contain the most potential hits.

I am a university graduate from a fairly fortunate socio-economic background. I know that this background has softened me and caused me to become distracted at times. I did not work work as hard as others paying their entire own way through.

Similarly, Stan Bowman grew up with many opportunities handed to him. He did not have to work his way to the top in the same way as many of his peers. I believe he is biased in favour of players with a familiar background to him.

You say you don't speak in absolutes and then go on to speak in more absolutes. You won't draft NCAA kids and insinuate they don't earn their own way are critical generalizations that you can't prove in any way.
You never answer a simple question like who pays the thousands so all these middle class Canadian kid's can play hockey at the highest levels? and you probably won't. 

NCAA programs choose kids by their play alone,there's no such a thing as buying your way onto a NCAA program.

You wrongly suggest American families just pay their kid's way onto programs and totally ignore the politics and privilege of Canadian Jr leagues.


You also mis-represent the number of NCAA kids Blowman has taken and equate that to the team's faliure......
2020 Reichel......another small framed Euro
2019 Dach,WHL.....very promising
2018 Boqvist,Euro player....jury's out 
2017 Jokiharju,Euro player.....very good.....traded away
2016 no 1st but OHL player D-Cat taken in the 2nd.....numbers speak them themselves
2015 no 1st but OHL player Knott taken in the 2nd to no avaail. 
2014 Schmaltz,US college player skating a top six role
2013 Hartman,US player who's a solid bottom six forward and a college bum named Motte in the 4th round that year.......both players are the epitome of the lunch pail guys you dream of 
2012 TT,Euro player traded away.....very good player
2011 McNeill,Canadian player.....never got a sniff
2010 Hayes,US player contributing in the NHL   

Just because your privileged up-bring caused you to grow up soft dosen't make that true for other kids just like my non college,lower middle class up-bringing didn't keep my ass from being soft either.

You continue to cast these unfair dispersions and I'll continue to dis-spell em! Your ideological slip is showing on this issue my friend. 

[hsbob]

Nov 1, 2020 6:35:46 GMT -6 mvr said:

Perhaps not, Vadarx.

Hockey players do not have to be good human beings. They have to be mentally tough and willing to go to war. Sociopaths and narcissists might make better hockey players than the well-adjusted.

If I am an Human Resources manager hiring for most other jobs, I'm looking at college graduates. The more education a person can achieve, the better.... It is a tragedy when politicians push populist, anti-intellectual agendas.

Bowman, on the other hand, is looking for hockey players.

Tim O'Brien, the great Vietnam war veteran, wrote an insightful book of short stories about his experiences. I particularly recommend the story, "The Man I Killed."

It takes a certain kind of person to manage their emotions in battle. I know I would not do well.

I have no more personal use for the privileged than you do and I guarantee that but to be fair I also notice who's taken the leadership roles when needed in my country and I judge a man on his deeds,not his up-bringing. Men like JFK,HW and McCaain have exhibited the pinnacle of bravery and commitment when called upon and others like Eisenhower,FDR,MacArthur and Patton won wars and led my country through it's darkest days.....all came from privileged up-bringings.

I personally prefer those with similar up-brings to mine and but I'm not so obtuse to trip over my ideology that I won't call a spade a spade. 
   

[mvr]

There are exceptions to every trend.

But a trend is a trend. When I invest, I look for what is most likely to happen.

More than half of the league still comes from the CHL. Bowman has slanted each of his drafts against the grain, focussing very heavily heavily on kids playing in the US college system. The numbers do not lie here.

To my mind, he is not playing the percentages.

Re Bob's questiona about "who pays?" Again, my argument has nothing to do with national identity.

CHL players tend to live with boarders (generally middle/working class). They receive a small salary while playing. They ride the buses. They are exposed to real life at an impressionable age. They learn independence.

The college game is much different. There is little travel. They play fewer games. They tend to live in residence. Everything is paid for, and they don't have to cook. They live a very sheltered life, and it is fun. There are so many constant distractions - girls, parties, beer, dope etc.

[BigT]

Nov 1, 2020 9:13:59 GMT -6 hsbob said:

Nov 1, 2020 6:35:46 GMT -6 mvr said:

Perhaps not, Vadarx.

Hockey players do not have to be good human beings. They have to be mentally tough and willing to go to war. Sociopaths and narcissists might make better hockey players than the well-adjusted.

If I am an Human Resources manager hiring for most other jobs, I'm looking at college graduates. The more education a person can achieve, the better.... It is a tragedy when politicians push populist, anti-intellectual agendas.

Bowman, on the other hand, is looking for hockey players.

Tim O'Brien, the great Vietnam war veteran, wrote an insightful book of short stories about his experiences. I particularly recommend the story, "The Man I Killed."

It takes a certain kind of person to manage their emotions in battle. I know I would not do well.

I have no more personal use for the privileged than you do and I guarantee that but to be fair I also notice who's taken the leadership roles when needed in my country and I judge a man on his deeds,not his up-bringing. Men like JFK,HW and McCaain have exhibited the pinnacle of bravery and commitment when called upon and others like Eisenhower,FDR,MacArthur and Patton won wars and led my country through it's darkest days.....all came from privileged up-bringings.

I personally prefer those with similar up-brings to mine and but I'm not so obtuse to trip over my ideology that I won't call a spade a spade. 
   

I’m very happy you’re not obtuse. Very happy!!!

[BigT]

I’m going to chime in and say this. As I’m going to personally be poised with a massive question in the next couple of years.

Here in southern Ontario, there hasnt been too many high end skill guys that come out. It’s mostly fighters and grinder types. Yes we’ve got Eckblad, Brodie now a days. But it’s always been the tougher types. All these guys come back to coach AAA. They do not push skill or skilled players. They want them to fall in line and play more of a team game and don’t lose too badly. Or squeak out a win. That’s not my son. He’s a very high skilled kid with good size. At 9 he’s already pulled off the “Lacrosse goal” and got heavily criticized for it. He scored the stick through the legs goal the other day and was told to “just shoot the damn puck”.

So, in the good ol USA. They have corporate sponsors for all their AAA. The costs are much lower due to this. There’s Belle Tire, Little Caesars, Marshall’s etc, they all throw big money at this. My son will be 10 in January. Do I take him when he’s 12 to play in the US ranks? Many are doing it now in the border cities just due to them acknowledging skilled kids and they produce a lot in Michigan. They have ex NHLers coaching these teams and helping these kids along. Kane went and played at 14 for Detroit Honey Baked (Ham company) owned by Pat Verbeek. They seem to do things much better over there. I’m liking the sounds of this. My son gets shunned here because he plays a totally different style than they preach here. I’m good friends with the guys who run it here, but it’s getting annoying that one of the top kids doesn’t get invited to this or to play in that due to the inept perceptions of some.

I think we’ll try the US system for a year once he’s 12. It’s only an hour away. We’ve had scouts from Toronta wanting us to play for spring teams up there, and probably will this year.

While I’m not the biggest fan of kids staying in the NCAA too long, I do have to commend the US system especially in the minor hockey systems for going with the best kids. They take Canadians if they’re the best. Canada used to be like that, now it’s turning into who knows who, and if they got money. The teams down here in Essex county dominantly suck, and they blame the population. I blame the training and coaching down here. It’s bland and does t really promote individual skills. It’s more team based. It that can easily be taught off ice or later.

So with what Bob said earlier a few posts back, I agree about the US doesn’t allow what we allow down here. They’re judged on their record and how many kids they develop. Here it’s more of a who’s who in the hockey world. I know kids that are playing AAA and they probably won’t even get a shot on net this year. Yet their parents know the coaches etc and their kid make it over a better kid. That’s teaching kids to never face adversity, and they will end up failing in life!!!

[hsbob]

Nov 1, 2020 9:37:34 GMT -6 mvr said:

There are exceptions to every trend.

But a trend is a trend. When I invest, I look for what is most likely to happen.

More than half of the league still comes from the CHL. Bowman has slanted each of his drafts against the grain, focussing very heavily heavily on kids playing in the US college system. The numbers do not lie here.

To my mind, he is not playing the percentages.

Re Bob's questiona about "who pays?" Again, my argument has nothing to do with national identity.

CHL players tend to live with boarders (generally middle/working class). They receive a small salary while playing. They ride the buses. They are exposed to real life at an impressionable age. They learn independence.

The college game is much different. There is little travel. They play fewer games. They tend to live in residence. Everything is paid for, and they don't have to cook. They live a very sheltered life, and it is fun. There are so many constant distractions - girls, parties, beer, dope etc.

I've made a small fortune on AAPL and AMD but I see no correlation as far as this issue.
You continue to paint Canadian Jr players as all middle class kids and I bet Big T could disagree with that,it takes THOUSANDS of dollars for a kid to play at the highest levels on either side of the boarder......many middle class families can't even afford the $500 two broken sticks cost for God's sake.

How do WS and ND play each other without traveling? Who cooks for a college kid? I hope you realize that the NCAA doesn't supply chefs.

Now you're actually insinuating NCAA kids are drunks and drug addicts........are you saying no Canadian Jr kids don't have these problems too?

What derogatory road won't you go down insulting a bunch of kids?

Apparently the only way you and I can find middle ground on this issue is if I agree that all college hockey players are,uncommitted,lazy,drunken drug addicts but unlike you,I'd never say such horrible things about ANY group of kids!    
   

[hsbob]

Nov 1, 2020 10:46:01 GMT -6 BigT said:

I’m going to chime in and say this. As I’m going to personally be poised with a massive question in the next couple of years.

Here in southern Ontario, there hasnt been too many high end skill guys that come out. It’s mostly fighters and grinder types. Yes we’ve got Eckblad, Brodie now a days. But it’s always been the tougher types. All these guys come back to coach AAA. They do not push skill or skilled players. They want them to fall in line and play more of a team game and don’t lose too badly. Or squeak out a win. That’s not my son. He’s a very high skilled kid with good size. At 9 he’s already pulled off the “Lacrosse goal” and got heavily criticized for it. He scored the stick through the legs goal the other day and was told to “just shoot the damn puck”.

So, in the good ol USA. They have corporate sponsors for all their AAA. The costs are much lower due to this. There’s Belle Tire, Little Caesars, Marshall’s etc, they all throw big money at this. My son will be 10 in January. Do I take him when he’s 12 to play in the US ranks? Many are doing it now in the border cities just due to them acknowledging skilled kids and they produce a lot in Michigan. They have ex NHLers coaching these teams and helping these kids along. Kane went and played at 14 for Detroit Honey Baked (Ham company) owned by Pat Verbeek. They seem to do things much better over there. I’m liking the sounds of this. My son gets shunned here because he plays a totally different style than they preach here. I’m good friends with the guys who run it here, but it’s getting annoying that one of the top kids doesn’t get invited to this or to play in that due to the inept perceptions of some.

I think we’ll try the US system for a year once he’s 12. It’s only an hour away. We’ve had scouts from Toronta wanting us to play for spring teams up there, and probably will this year.

While I’m not the biggest fan of kids staying in the NCAA too long, I do have to commend the US system especially in the minor hockey systems for going with the best kids. They take Canadians if they’re the best. Canada used to be like that, now it’s turning into who knows who, and if they got money. The teams down here in Essex county dominantly suck, and they blame the population. I blame the training and coaching down here. It’s bland and does t really promote individual skills. It’s more team based. It that can easily be taught off ice or later.

So with what Bob said earlier a few posts back, I agree about the US doesn’t allow what we allow down here. They’re judged on their record and how many kids they develop. Here it’s more of a who’s who in the hockey world. I know kids that are playing AAA and they probably won’t even get a shot on net this year. Yet their parents know the coaches etc and their kid make it over a better kid. That’s teaching kids to never face adversity, and they will end up failing in life!!!

You know where I stand on this T. I can't count the times I've said "the way to the show is through the O'" or how much I'd like a few more "big,raw boned Canadian lads" but I just can't go along with someone calling a bunch of young hockey players,lazy,umcommitted or drunks and dope addicts and I'd take exception if someone said that about Canadian Jr kids too!

[BigT]

Nov 1, 2020 11:17:15 GMT -6 hsbob said:

Nov 1, 2020 10:46:01 GMT -6 BigT said:

I’m going to chime in and say this. As I’m going to personally be poised with a massive question in the next couple of years.

Here in southern Ontario, there hasnt been too many high end skill guys that come out. It’s mostly fighters and grinder types. Yes we’ve got Eckblad, Brodie now a days. But it’s always been the tougher types. All these guys come back to coach AAA. They do not push skill or skilled players. They want them to fall in line and play more of a team game and don’t lose too badly. Or squeak out a win. That’s not my son. He’s a very high skilled kid with good size. At 9 he’s already pulled off the “Lacrosse goal” and got heavily criticized for it. He scored the stick through the legs goal the other day and was told to “just shoot the damn puck”.

So, in the good ol USA. They have corporate sponsors for all their AAA. The costs are much lower due to this. There’s Belle Tire, Little Caesars, Marshall’s etc, they all throw big money at this. My son will be 10 in January. Do I take him when he’s 12 to play in the US ranks? Many are doing it now in the border cities just due to them acknowledging skilled kids and they produce a lot in Michigan. They have ex NHLers coaching these teams and helping these kids along. Kane went and played at 14 for Detroit Honey Baked (Ham company) owned by Pat Verbeek. They seem to do things much better over there. I’m liking the sounds of this. My son gets shunned here because he plays a totally different style than they preach here. I’m good friends with the guys who run it here, but it’s getting annoying that one of the top kids doesn’t get invited to this or to play in that due to the inept perceptions of some.

I think we’ll try the US system for a year once he’s 12. It’s only an hour away. We’ve had scouts from Toronta wanting us to play for spring teams up there, and probably will this year.

While I’m not the biggest fan of kids staying in the NCAA too long, I do have to commend the US system especially in the minor hockey systems for going with the best kids. They take Canadians if they’re the best. Canada used to be like that, now it’s turning into who knows who, and if they got money. The teams down here in Essex county dominantly suck, and they blame the population. I blame the training and coaching down here. It’s bland and does t really promote individual skills. It’s more team based. It that can easily be taught off ice or later.

So with what Bob said earlier a few posts back, I agree about the US doesn’t allow what we allow down here. They’re judged on their record and how many kids they develop. Here it’s more of a who’s who in the hockey world. I know kids that are playing AAA and they probably won’t even get a shot on net this year. Yet their parents know the coaches etc and their kid make it over a better kid. That’s teaching kids to never face adversity, and they will end up failing in life!!!

You know where I stand on this T. I can't count the times I've said "the way to the show is through the O'" or how much I'd like a few more "big,raw boned Canadian lads" but I just can't go along with someone calling a bunch of young hockey players,lazy,umcommitted or drunks and dope addicts and I'd take exception if someone said that about Canadian Jr kids too!

For example. AAA here with travel costs are about 10k per year. Then there’s spring teams, extra training etc. Probably 15k per year. It’s disgusting and the best players aren’t even there because they’re squeezed out financially. So I we are fortunate enough to afford this. But why when my kid is shunned for trying different things? Shouldn’t we nurture kids with talent and let them develop? I think it’s awful how things are run, and in the US it’s all about the best kids. And for less money. I’m sure there’s privileged kids on both sides. I personally won’t allow that with my kids.

I cherish hockey. On both sides of the boarder!!!

[mvr]

Once again, I will state for the record that I have never, not once, suggested this is an issue of national identity.

I did not call American players drunks or anything of that matter. I did not ever suggest that Canadian players were any less privaleged than American players. I do not believe this.

I went to college. I know the distractions. They exist. And the experience is life-altering and wonderful.

I also know what it takes to get into the big US colleges. Tuition is expensive. Kids need to earn full or partial scholarships, or they need to have their parents pay.

Kids who don't achieve the marks to get the scholarships and who do not have the financial resources to pay must choose other paths. One of those paths is the junior leagues. It is really not even worth debating at this stage whether or not the junior league kids (both American and Canadian) as a general rule typically come from the same socio-economic background as the college kids. Wealthier Canadian athletes (like wealthier American kids) tend to go to the elite US colleges. The others go to the junior colleges or the CHL. Higher education at the elite schools is a privalege available only to some. If you want to think otherwise, Bob, go ahead.

My bigger concern has always been about the post-draft years. Most players drafted require at least 2-3 years of development after they reach the age of 18. This is the key period. Some get better, but most plateau. My belief is that the CHL provides a better training ground to groom hockey players.   Life is tougher, like boot camp.

Like Big T, if my kid was an athlete good enough to be considered to go to college, this is where I would send him. But the primary purpose would be for him to experience university life. It is great fun.

[mvr]

I will state for the record that I never suggested the Hawks completely avoid the NCAA.

My position is that the team should draft in closer approximation to the league average. This means Bowman should be drafting about half the number of US college kids he does, and he should be drafting at least twice the number of CHL players.

This is not about nationality. It is about playing the odds.

[BigT]

Nov 1, 2020 14:12:11 GMT -6 mvr said:

I will state for the record that I never suggested the Hawks completely avoid the NCAA.

My position is that the team should draft in closer approximation to the league average. This means Bowman should be drafting about half the number of US college kids he does, and he should be drafting at least twice the number of CHL players.

This is not about nationality. It is about playing the odds.

MVR I think you’re an awesome person and I hope you don’t take all this wrong. I really appreciate your side of the argument and I don’t necessarily disagree with you. I can only tell you what my experiences are so far. Also the costs (financially and mentally). If my son stays on the same path, and looks like a good skilled player in 6-7 years time, I would also choose the OHL over the NCAA. If he’s a borderline player and looks like a Sikura type. I would tell him to get the free ride education and hope it works out.

Even if I disagree with your arguments, I still respect the hell out of them, you articulate your points very well and I love reading your posts. Thanks for a well rounded discussion!!!

[LordKOTL]

Oct 29, 2020 22:44:13 GMT -6 ebonyraptor said:

There has certainly been some draft misses in the first couple rounds, as there are with every GM, but also some hits, like Kevin Hayes (#24), Phillip Danault (#26), Brandon Saad (#43), Teuvo Terabvainen (#18), Nick Schmaltz (#20), Alex DeBrincat (#39), and Henri Jokiharju (#29). All of those players have been drafted mid 1st round or 2nd round and all are good to very good NHL players.

Just injecting some perspective.

Hayes:  Gone
Danault: Gone
Saad: Gone, twice
T²: Gone
El Gato:  Still here
Joker:  Gone

The counterpoint is that even though Stan has draft victories, How many have been kept?

And yeah, I wasn't big on Dach but he didn't look out of place in the playoffs, so for now I'll consider it good.  We'll see though, he's just had one year in the league and he can still have a sophomore slump or worse:  become Sergei Samsonov.  Ditto on Koob.

Still, good draft picks mean all of jack and squat unless they, or their trade descendants, actually do something.  That's why Joker for Nylander stings.  Even if the 'hawks were preordained to lose Joker in expansion getting Nylander and only Nylander for him was a bad loss--especially since Nylander so far has been fate-tits on a Zombie-worthless.

[T-man2010]

Nov 2, 2020 9:51:35 GMT -6 LordKOTL said:

Oct 29, 2020 22:44:13 GMT -6 ebonyraptor said:

There has certainly been some draft misses in the first couple rounds, as there are with every GM, but also some hits, like Kevin Hayes (#24), Phillip Danault (#26), Brandon Saad (#43), Teuvo Terabvainen (#18), Nick Schmaltz (#20), Alex DeBrincat (#39), and Henri Jokiharju (#29). All of those players have been drafted mid 1st round or 2nd round and all are good to very good NHL players.

Just injecting some perspective.

Hayes:  Gone
Danault: Gone
Saad: Gone, twice
T²: Gone
El Gato:  Still here
Joker:  Gone

The counterpoint is that even though Stan has draft victories, How many have been kept?

And yeah, I wasn't big on Dach but he didn't look out of place in the playoffs, so for now I'll consider it good.  We'll see though, he's just had one year in the league and he can still have a sophomore slump or worse:  become Sergei Samsonov.  Ditto on Koob.

Still, good draft picks mean all of jack and squat unless they, or their trade descendants, actually do something.  That's why Joker for Nylander stings.  Even if the 'hawks were preordained to lose Joker in expansion getting Nylander and only Nylander for him was a bad loss--especially since Nylander so far has been fate-tits on a Zombie-worthless.

Technically Kevin Hayes was never with the Hawks, He went to college for 4 years and refused to sign with the Hawks.

A lot of draft kids that go to college then never sign them afterwards. Now we had his brother Jimmy Hayes who wasn't that good,
and the Hawks traded him away, Kevin decided not to sign with the Hawks because of that.