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Post by Nikos on Jun 3, 2022 6:44:22 GMT -6
I can understand that. KD seems to want a different type of player/team. if someone makes a huge offer, he should surely listen. I've heard the same. shocking, I tell ya. who could've guessed a country boy moving to the big city at 18 with pockets full of cash could get caught up with chasing tail.. he needs a new coach to come in and read him the riot act. it'd also be nice if a vet on the team, maybe one who got in trouble doing the same shit, might sit down with him as well... Wasn't it Dach who Seabs and his wife took in his first two years here or am I thinkin of the wrong kid? If so I doubt he was chasin tail or at a bar EVER until he turned 21,Seabs only complaint was he was eatin him outta house an home. Country boy........I can see Jeb from Green Acers....LOL Vets didn't help him.....obviously untrue All his coaches refused to teach him how to take draws.........why would they do that? Drank and partied too much.......I don't know but a red flag if true if he was doing so underage Injured a LOT....shut down at the end again this this year. Only wants to play center FO production Offensive production His brother will get him to commit Still only 21......true but 22 half way through next season. Not all things you said buddy but things we've all either thought,said,heard or read and next year is time to put it all to rest and have a Big Boy season. Bob, you are correct he was staying with Seabs and don't think Seabs would have approved. |
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Post by vadarx on Jun 3, 2022 8:58:38 GMT -6
Wasn't it Dach who Seabs and his wife took in his first two years here or am I thinkin of the wrong kid? If so I doubt he was chasin tail or at a bar EVER until he turned 21,Seabs only complaint was he was eatin him outta house an home. Country boy........I can see Jeb from Green Acers....LOL Vets didn't help him.....obviously untrue All his coaches refused to teach him how to take draws.........why would they do that? Drank and partied too much.......I don't know but a red flag if true if he was doing so underage Injured a LOT....shut down at the end again this this year. Only wants to play center FO production Offensive production His brother will get him to commit Still only 21......true but 22 half way through next season. Not all things you said buddy but things we've all either thought,said,heard or read and next year is time to put it all to rest and have a Big Boy season. Bob, you are correct he was staying with Seabs and don't think Seabs would have approved. he isn't Seabs kid, he can do whatever he wants. I also believe that was only his first season he stayed with him. that is not the case any longer. he may have minded his p's and q's back then, but he is on his own now as a 21 year old man in the big city with a bank account full of dollars... who among us here wouldn't be doing something with that at that age? they would have to had get me fixed to keep me from having half the city impregnated in that scenario... |
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Post by vadarx on Jun 3, 2022 9:01:23 GMT -6
I can understand that. KD seems to want a different type of player/team. if someone makes a huge offer, he should surely listen. I've heard the same. shocking, I tell ya. who could've guessed a country boy moving to the big city at 18 with pockets full of cash could get caught up with chasing tail.. he needs a new coach to come in and read him the riot act. it'd also be nice if a vet on the team, maybe one who got in trouble doing the same shit, might sit down with him as well... Wasn't it Dach who Seabs and his wife took in his first two years here or am I thinkin of the wrong kid? If so I doubt he was chasin tail or at a bar EVER until he turned 21,Seabs only complaint was he was eatin him outta house an home. Country boy........I can see Jeb from Green Acers....LOL Vets didn't help him.....obviously untrue All his coaches refused to teach him how to take draws.........why would they do that? Drank and partied too much.......I don't know but a red flag if true if he was doing so underage Injured a LOT....shut down at the end again this this year. Only wants to play center FO production Offensive production His brother will get him to commit Still only 21......true but 22 half way through next season. Not all things you said buddy but things we've all either thought,said,heard or read and next year is time to put it all to rest and have a Big Boy season. without a doubt not all of that is true. there is surely some exaggeration happening, and I would say injuries and being rushed are the main issues as far as his development go... ...but his attitude and priorities are also playing into it, especially in the last year or so. nevertheless, I am still giving him some time to work through those things, especially when we have lots of time before this team is contending again. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 3, 2022 10:00:42 GMT -6
I agree with this. However, I really really feel the new management wants to get rid of the old regimes players and the style they were aiming for. I believe it’s a whole different direction they’re aiming for. I don’t believe it’s personal. Just literally a new direction. And if they can get a piece they want, Dach will be gone. And I doubt they’d just give him away. I’ve also heard rumours of Dach being a bit of a dick and not working on his game as much as he should be. The night life is getting more important I’m hearing. I know King brought that up. And I’ve heard some of the same shit. So maybe a change of scenery will be good for him!!! I can understand that. KD seems to want a different type of player/team. if someone makes a huge offer, he should surely listen. I've heard the same. shocking, I tell ya. who could've guessed a country boy moving to the big city at 18 with pockets full of cash could get caught up with chasing tail.. he needs a new coach to come in and read him the riot act. it'd also be nice if a vet on the team, maybe one who got in trouble doing the same shit, might sit down with him as well... Country boy? Fort Saskatchewan is a rich community just north of Edmonton, he wasn't raised on a farm in Saskatchewan lol And the whole chasing tail and going out drinking was pure speculation by BT. As others have pointed out, no way Seabs would've put up with that. Dach wants to be the best and injuries and the bounces not going his way is obviously frustrating to him. I think having his brother in Chicago next season will help his game. |
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Post by vadarx on Jun 3, 2022 15:10:28 GMT -6
I can understand that. KD seems to want a different type of player/team. if someone makes a huge offer, he should surely listen. I've heard the same. shocking, I tell ya. who could've guessed a country boy moving to the big city at 18 with pockets full of cash could get caught up with chasing tail.. he needs a new coach to come in and read him the riot act. it'd also be nice if a vet on the team, maybe one who got in trouble doing the same shit, might sit down with him as well... Country boy? Fort Saskatchewan is a rich community just north of Edmonton, he wasn't raised on a farm in Saskatchewan lol And the whole chasing tail and going out drinking was pure speculation by BT. As others have pointed out, no way Seabs would've put up with that. Dach wants to be the best and injuries and the bounces not going his way is obviously frustrating to him. I think having his brother in Chicago next season will help his game. my bad. tbh, I didn't even look to see where he was from initially, just jumped on the western Canada "country" stereotype. that was a mistake. that, however, doesn't change the fact that beyond the injuries and lack of development that he has a bit of an attitude problem. that he is from a rich community might explain that... |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 9, 2022 22:01:54 GMT -6
Country boy? Fort Saskatchewan is a rich community just north of Edmonton, he wasn't raised on a farm in Saskatchewan lol And the whole chasing tail and going out drinking was pure speculation by BT. As others have pointed out, no way Seabs would've put up with that. Dach wants to be the best and injuries and the bounces not going his way is obviously frustrating to him. I think having his brother in Chicago next season will help his game. my bad. tbh, I didn't even look to see where he was from initially, just jumped on the western Canada "country" stereotype. that was a mistake. that, however, doesn't change the fact that beyond the injuries and lack of development that he has a bit of an attitude problem. that he is from a rich community might explain that... All good lol I can see how you'd think that but yeah Fort Sask is a high end small city close to Edmonton, no cows and farm animals. Dachs dad had then grow up with no social media till his draft year, coming to Chicago and being bombarded by it and him wanting to be the best hasn't helped his development. During this season Dach said he's avoiding social media and he looked like he was playing better till his injury. I'd rather have a kid who's attitude problem is being upset because he's not producing like he wants to than a kid who's a troublemaker. Yes his family is wealthy but I wouldn't contribute that to his attitude, his brother Colton said Kirby was always serious about hockey they were very competitive growing up. Their dad was a construction worker who now owns his own company, so he got his money from hard work passed it onto his kids. Colton will probably make the team next season, pair him with Kirby and put Katchouk or Raddysh on their wing. CD looked better last training camp than some of the forwards who made the team, after his season in Kelowna he seems ready. We'll see next camp. |
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Post by steamer on Jun 10, 2022 9:32:37 GMT -6
Still think it's a damn shame they rushed this kid and put him on the top line etc. So at 21 he is faced with almost a do or die situation which is very unfortunate. As Big T has said numerous times, a year or two of development and maturity could (no guarantee of course) have meant a guy ready to go at 21. I know myself at 21 and the temptations are intense and that was decades ago so it's probably worse now. Just hope he can be a lot more mature than I was and work on his game, get a more determined attitude and if so, I still think he can be a good hockey player. Equal to JT? - I don't think so. They don't make too many of them.
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Post by 2old4this on Jun 13, 2022 16:23:08 GMT -6
Give him a 2 yr contract and see how it goes.
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Post by Nikos on Jun 13, 2022 17:46:09 GMT -6
I think term will not be the biggest issue/stumbling block, it will be how much his agent asks for annually=cap hit.
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 13, 2022 20:56:54 GMT -6
I think term will not be the biggest issue/stumbling block, it will be how much his agent asks for annually=cap hit. I think he'll try to max his argument out around $3M AAV--based on the fact that Barclay Goodrow in the same 2020-2022 timespan has the same 0.13 GPG & 0.39 PPG numbers. In the words of Marshall Lucky from the movie "Used Cars": "That's too Fuckin' High!" The 'hawks, meanwhile, can point out that his numbers are a mere RCH better than Vinnie Hinostroza's in the same timeframe, and he got signed for 1.05M. I could live with that--$2.5M max for a year or $1.5M AAV for 2. No more years than 2. If he doesn't take some Kaopectate and get his shit together by the end of 2024, he won't by with us by 2025. |
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Post by jaty84 on Jun 14, 2022 0:55:01 GMT -6
IMHO, you're partially paying also for the future potential. Look at Suzuki's, Hirschier's or Kotkaniemi's contracts. Those teams actually made quite a gamble giving them contracts longer than 5 years without prooving something.
In Dach's case, I would not gamble that high to give him a longterm contract. Fully agree with the majority over here, to offer him 2-3 years contract at around 3M. Numbers comparison can be done up to a certain level. You expect more from Dach than you expect from Goodrow or Vinnie Hinnie. One is a proven 3rd line player with Cup experience, the other one a bottom 6 grinder.
To cut it short, 2 years @ 3M AAV.
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Post by steamer on Jun 14, 2022 9:05:50 GMT -6
IMHO, you're partially paying also for the future potential. Look at Suzuki's, Hirschier's or Kotkaniemi's contracts. Those teams actually made quite a gamble giving them contracts longer than 5 years without prooving something. In Dach's case, I would not gamble that high to give him a longterm contract. Fully agree with the majority over here, to offer him 2-3 years contract at around 3M. Numbers comparison can be done up to a certain level. You expect more from Dach than you expect from Goodrow or Vinnie Hinnie. One is a proven 3rd line player with Cup experience, the other one a bottom 6 grinder. To cut it short, 2 years @ 3M AAV. That's both the longest term and the highest $ I would be willing to go. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 14, 2022 9:38:55 GMT -6
IMHO, you're partially paying also for the future potential. Look at Suzuki's, Hirschier's or Kotkaniemi's contracts. Those teams actually made quite a gamble giving them contracts longer than 5 years without prooving something. In Dach's case, I would not gamble that high to give him a longterm contract. Fully agree with the majority over here, to offer him 2-3 years contract at around 3M. Numbers comparison can be done up to a certain level. You expect more from Dach than you expect from Goodrow or Vinnie Hinnie. One is a proven 3rd line player with Cup experience, the other one a bottom 6 grinder. To cut it short, 2 years @ 3M AAV. So far Dach hasn't shown much future potential other than a 3rd line FWD defensive specialist, and not even at a Bolland/Kruger defense level at that. Further, he hasn't shown the chops to be a defensive center, just a FWD. Paying for future potential is dicey--especially for a player who hasn't met expectations and is playing like a 3rd line grinder. Aside from the play-in he hasn't shown much and much like the Bickell situation it would be unwise to give him a good chunk of change for such a small showing. In my opinion, $3M AAV over 2 years is too much for what he's shown. I'm sticking with my numbers. If he wants more, he can play to prove his worth since the 'hawks will have the cap in a year or two to sign him to a sweet deal if he proves himself. He won't be the 1st player to have a Show Me deal placed in front of him and he won't be the last. If he is really hungry and serious, taking $2.5M over 1 or $1.5M each year for 2 years should ge a no-brainer knowing if he does become a decent center, the 'hawks will have the cap to pay him. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 14, 2022 11:48:24 GMT -6
IMHO, you're partially paying also for the future potential. Look at Suzuki's, Hirschier's or Kotkaniemi's contracts. Those teams actually made quite a gamble giving them contracts longer than 5 years without prooving something. In Dach's case, I would not gamble that high to give him a longterm contract. Fully agree with the majority over here, to offer him 2-3 years contract at around 3M. Numbers comparison can be done up to a certain level. You expect more from Dach than you expect from Goodrow or Vinnie Hinnie. One is a proven 3rd line player with Cup experience, the other one a bottom 6 grinder. To cut it short, 2 years @ 3M AAV. So far Dach hasn't shown much future potential other than a 3rd line FWD defensive specialist, and not even at a Bolland/Kruger defense level at that. Further, he hasn't shown the chops to be a defensive center, just a FWD. Paying for future potential is dicey--especially for a player who hasn't met expectations and is playing like a 3rd line grinder. Aside from the play-in he hasn't shown much and much like the Bickell situation it would be unwise to give him a good chunk of change for such a small showing. In my opinion, $3M AAV over 2 years is too much for what he's shown. I'm sticking with my numbers. If he wants more, he can play to prove his worth since the 'hawks will have the cap in a year or two to sign him to a sweet deal if he proves himself. He won't be the 1st player to have a Show Me deal placed in front of him and he won't be the last. If he is really hungry and serious, taking $2.5M over 1 or $1.5M each year for 2 years should ge a no-brainer knowing if he does become a decent center, the 'hawks will have the cap to pay him. I fully agree. Why would another GM be a total Panik and fuck over the Hawks for no reason and offer sheet him? Hawks have the money and cap. They’d match it. And I doubt a team would offer 8 million and give up a few picks with it. Just not gonna happen. So the Hawks hold all the cards here. I say qualify him. Then offer him a 2 year 3.5 million deal. I think that’s more than fair. Much more. 1.75 for a 25 point guy. Age or not, that’s a decent amount!!! |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 14, 2022 12:50:56 GMT -6
So far Dach hasn't shown much future potential other than a 3rd line FWD defensive specialist, and not even at a Bolland/Kruger defense level at that. Further, he hasn't shown the chops to be a defensive center, just a FWD. Paying for future potential is dicey--especially for a player who hasn't met expectations and is playing like a 3rd line grinder. Aside from the play-in he hasn't shown much and much like the Bickell situation it would be unwise to give him a good chunk of change for such a small showing. In my opinion, $3M AAV over 2 years is too much for what he's shown. I'm sticking with my numbers. If he wants more, he can play to prove his worth since the 'hawks will have the cap in a year or two to sign him to a sweet deal if he proves himself. He won't be the 1st player to have a Show Me deal placed in front of him and he won't be the last. If he is really hungry and serious, taking $2.5M over 1 or $1.5M each year for 2 years should ge a no-brainer knowing if he does become a decent center, the 'hawks will have the cap to pay him. I fully agree. Why would another GM be a total Panik and fuck over the Hawks for no reason and offer sheet him? Hawks have the money and cap. They’d match it. And I doubt a team would offer 8 million and give up a few picks with it. Just not gonna happen. So the Hawks hold all the cards here. I say qualify him. Then offer him a 2 year 3.5 million deal. I think that’s more than fair. Much more. 1.75 for a 25 point guy. Age or not, that’s a decent amount!!! See, I could live with that easily. Dach gets some decent incentive and another year (2, technically) to show he's for real and put in some work on himself. The hit and duration are movable if need be, and come 2025 the 'hawks should have more than enough cap for a great deal if he does turn into the next Toews. 3 for 2 though? Too high and I don't think he shod be signed longer than 2 years. Maybe there could have been justification for that amount after the play-in, but this past season happened and he was a disappointment. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 14, 2022 13:14:59 GMT -6
Kirby shouldn't get more than 2yrs and if he wants 3mill a season or more, it should be bonuses to reach that. Offer him 1.5-2mill per year, make him earn the extra money.
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Post by bigbarn27 on Jun 14, 2022 21:41:53 GMT -6
Mittelstadt gor 2.5 for 3 years KIrby will get just under what kappa gets some might say to much but I’m ok 3 years 3 mil a year .
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Kirby Dach
Jun 14, 2022 23:55:55 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by vadarx on Jun 14, 2022 23:55:55 GMT -6
Mittelstadt gor 2.5 for 3 years KIrby will get just under what kappa gets some might say to much but I’m ok 3 years 3 mil a year . kinda what I am thinking he gets as well. |
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Post by 2old4this on Jun 15, 2022 0:49:35 GMT -6
Kirby shouldn't get more than 2yrs and if he wants 3mill a season or more, it should be bonuses to reach that. Offer him 1.5-2mill per year, make him earn the extra money. Incentives are good. Especially re: face offs! |
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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 15, 2022 0:59:31 GMT -6
Kirby shouldn't get more than 2yrs and if he wants 3mill a season or more, it should be bonuses to reach that. Offer him 1.5-2mill per year, make him earn the extra money. Incentives are good. Especially re: face offs! i've never heard of incentive bonuses for the faceoff part of the game. they got it for so many things. goals, assists, TOI/durability...why not faceoffs too? |
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Post by 2old4this on Jun 15, 2022 1:28:06 GMT -6
Incentives are good. Especially re: face offs! i've never heard of incentive bonuses for the faceoff part of the game. they got it for so many things. goals, assists, TOI/durability...why not faceoffs too? Kirby needs it. He doesn't seem too terribly motivated to improve in this regard. But if he can't win at least half his face-offs, he should be converted to a winger, or traded. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 15, 2022 5:24:38 GMT -6
i've never heard of incentive bonuses for the faceoff part of the game. they got it for so many things. goals, assists, TOI/durability...why not faceoffs too? Kirby needs it. He doesn't seem too terribly motivated to improve in this regard. But if he can't win at least half his face-offs, he should be converted to a winger, or traded. He's not even close to 40%, I highly doubt he'll win half. Colton seems better at faceoffs so move Kirby to his brothers wing. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 15, 2022 5:32:04 GMT -6
Kirby shouldn't get more than 2yrs and if he wants 3mill a season or more, it should be bonuses to reach that. Offer him 1.5-2mill per year, make him earn the extra money. I may be wrong here. But I believe that there’s only so many bonuses he qualifies for. I believe that UFA status moving forward is the bonus area. First time RFA doesn’t have much. And they’re not allowed to command NTC. I believe second time RFA they’re allowed to command a 5 team NTC. I haven’t read it in a while. But it seems that Dach is pretty much just gonna get cold hard cash the east way!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 15, 2022 7:39:16 GMT -6
Dach's offensive production and FO performance have disappointed so far but the possibility of a breakthrough and the lack of center prospects in the system would make me more comfortable with three years. I'll leave the $$$ up to KD,it shouldn't be too much but it will be a raise that'll afford him a better lifestyle regarless and sometimes players won't want to lose that better lifestyle.
If we see that 20/50 45% season we all want to see from the kid,then another year under contract would add value.......if not? We gotta pay somebody if we move all the good players.
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Post by BigT on Jun 15, 2022 7:49:15 GMT -6
Dach's offensive production and FO performance have disappointed so far but the possibility of a breakthrough and the lack of center prospects in the system would make me more comfortable with three years. I'll leave the $$$ up to KD,it shouldn't be too much but it will be a raise that'll afford him a better lifestyle regarless and sometimes players won't want to lose that better lifestyle. If we see that 20/50 45% season we all want to see from the kid,then another year under contract would add value.......if not? We gotta pay somebody if we move all the good players. The more I think about it. The more your right. The extra year isn’t gonna hurt anything. If anything, let’s say he does sorta break out. He will have to be qualified at his last salary. And if it’s say 2 million. That’s where the negotiations begin. And if he has an extra year to break out, I think it helps both sides. Paying Dach in 2-3 years time is not gonna hurt the team that will probably be hurting to reach the cap floor!!! |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 15, 2022 8:07:06 GMT -6
Dach's offensive production and FO performance have disappointed so far but the possibility of a breakthrough and the lack of center prospects in the system would make me more comfortable with three years. I'll leave the $$$ up to KD,it shouldn't be too much but it will be a raise that'll afford him a better lifestyle regarless and sometimes players won't want to lose that better lifestyle. If we see that 20/50 45% season we all want to see from the kid,then another year under contract would add value.......if not? We gotta pay somebody if we move all the good players. The more I think about it. The more your right. The extra year isn’t gonna hurt anything. If anything, let’s say he does sorta break out. He will have to be qualified at his last salary. And if it’s say 2 million. That’s where the negotiations begin. And if he has an extra year to break out, I think it helps both sides. Paying Dach in 2-3 years time is not gonna hurt the team that will probably be hurting to reach the cap floor!!! We don't know the severity of the shoulder injury since they shut him down afterward but let's assume he heals up fine,do we see him in Chicago working with teammates this summer......does he know who his teammates'll be yet? The Org HAS to figure out the best way AND the best HC to develop him the next few years and I hear crickets as Cassidy gets hired in Vegas. If King is retained,will it be for his NHL teaching ability or his price tag? |
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Post by T-man2010 on Jun 15, 2022 8:39:55 GMT -6
The more I think about it. The more your right. The extra year isn’t gonna hurt anything. If anything, let’s say he does sorta break out. He will have to be qualified at his last salary. And if it’s say 2 million. That’s where the negotiations begin. And if he has an extra year to break out, I think it helps both sides. Paying Dach in 2-3 years time is not gonna hurt the team that will probably be hurting to reach the cap floor!!! We don't know the severity of the shoulder injury since they shut him down afterward but let's assume he heals up fine,do we see him in Chicago working with teammates this summer......does he know who his teammates'll be yet? The Org HAS to figure out the best way AND the best HC to develop him the next few years and I hear crickets as Cassidy gets hired in Vegas. If King is retained,will it be for his NHL teaching ability or his price tag? To me the NHL coach should not be the guy to "teach" a player how to play. The player needs to learn first in juniors, AHL or college first. The nhl is where they need to learn a system and coach needs to fit him in that system. Which the Hawks don't have a system yet. Now Dach needs this first:  |
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Post by BigT on Jun 15, 2022 8:41:39 GMT -6
I feel if the org does everything in their power to develop Dach, they’re already ahead of the curve in a rebuild. If he’s a true #1 center. You’re off to a great start. However, he does have to find it within himself. I’m not sure a kid like Dach wants to be called out publicly. I don’t think Kinger was trying to be harmful to the kid. But I think Dach wasn’t taking to it. His play didn’t that’s for sure.
So I’m not sure King is the guy I want. I think they should bring back the great communicator! Why not? Ohhhh ya. He sucked.
But they should be looking at someone who has a clue how to do this. Not sure King is the guy as he looks like he wants to prove himself as a real head coach. Not just a place holder for the next guy!!!
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Post by T-man2010 on Jun 15, 2022 8:49:52 GMT -6
I feel if the org does everything in their power to develop Dach, they’re already ahead of the curve in a rebuild. If he’s a true #1 center. You’re off to a great start. However, he does have to find it within himself. I’m not sure a kid like Dach wants to be called out publicly. I don’t think Kinger was trying to be harmful to the kid. But I think Dach wasn’t taking to it. His play didn’t that’s for sure. So I’m not sure King is the guy I want. I think they should bring back the great communicator! Why not? Ohhhh ya. He sucked. But they should be looking at someone who has a clue how to do this. Not sure King is the guy as he looks like he wants to prove himself as a real head coach. Not just a place holder for the next guy!!! To me I see King could be a good HC with more time down in Rockford. He did a decent job there or as best he could since the Hawks were a revolving door from the Hogs. I imagine it's tough to keep continuity as a team when personal changes every other day. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 15, 2022 9:05:59 GMT -6
Mittelstadt gor 2.5 for 3 years KIrby will get just under what kappa gets some might say to much but I’m ok 3 years 3 mil a year . Mittelstadt is scoring at a better clip than Dach though, so Dach should be less--not to mention he's only been under 40% at the dot in a season once. I agree with @oldtimehockey, if we can get a performance bonus on his next deal, we should be doing it in lieu of guaranteed salary. We could say this (if possible): Give him a 2 year deal, 1.5M AAV in base salary. Give him a 1M performance bonus if he hits 50% at the dot, 500k if he hits 40% for each season. Give an additional bonus of 1M if he hits 20G, 750k if he hits 15G--again, each season. If he maxes out he'd be getting 3.5M in a year, and if he hits those numbers he'd be worth the extra cost. |
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