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Post by hsbob on Jun 15, 2022 9:17:55 GMT -6
The last thing I wanna do is make excuses for Kirby Dach BUT the recently concussed 18yro ran SMACK into two HC's who'd never been behind an NHL before and more than likely,never will again. Other than D-Cat and Hagel,who'd beat ya at floor hockey with me as their HC....LOL......what youngster improved the last four years here?
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Post by hsbob on Jun 15, 2022 9:21:11 GMT -6
I feel if the org does everything in their power to develop Dach, they’re already ahead of the curve in a rebuild. If he’s a true #1 center. You’re off to a great start. However, he does have to find it within himself. I’m not sure a kid like Dach wants to be called out publicly. I don’t think Kinger was trying to be harmful to the kid. But I think Dach wasn’t taking to it. His play didn’t that’s for sure. So I’m not sure King is the guy I want. I think they should bring back the great communicator! Why not? Ohhhh ya. He sucked. But they should be looking at someone who has a clue how to do this. Not sure King is the guy as he looks like he wants to prove himself as a real head coach. Not just a place holder for the next guy!!! To me I see King could be a good HC with more time down in Rockford. He did a decent job there or as best he could since the Hawks were a revolving door from the Hogs. I imagine it's tough to keep continuity as a team when personal changes every other day. The guy's 55,he's been coaching in the A since '09' and he was Rockford's HC for three years without NHL interest.....you figure he's just a late bloomer? |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Jun 15, 2022 13:53:33 GMT -6
Mittelstadt gor 2.5 for 3 years KIrby will get just under what kappa gets some might say to much but I’m ok 3 years 3 mil a year . Mittelstadt is scoring at a better clip than Dach though, so Dach should be less--not to mention he's only been under 40% at the dot in a season once. I agree with @oldtimehockey, if we can get a performance bonus on his next deal, we should be doing it in lieu of guaranteed salary. We could say this (if possible): Give him a 2 year deal, 1.5M AAV in base salary. Give him a 1M performance bonus if he hits 50% at the dot, 500k if he hits 40% for each season. Give an additional bonus of 1M if he hits 20G, 750k if he hits 15G--again, each season. If he maxes out he'd be getting 3.5M in a year, and if he hits those numbers he'd be worth the extra cost. Mittelstadt was at a .34 clip after his first 3 years Dach .38 so dach scoring at better clip I’ll take DachsD over Mittelstdts any day. I understand the problems at the dot but I’m not nickel and dimming this kid when there is no need to. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 15, 2022 16:42:57 GMT -6
Mittelstadt is scoring at a better clip than Dach though, so Dach should be less--not to mention he's only been under 40% at the dot in a season once. I agree with @oldtimehockey, if we can get a performance bonus on his next deal, we should be doing it in lieu of guaranteed salary. We could say this (if possible): Give him a 2 year deal, 1.5M AAV in base salary. Give him a 1M performance bonus if he hits 50% at the dot, 500k if he hits 40% for each season. Give an additional bonus of 1M if he hits 20G, 750k if he hits 15G--again, each season. If he maxes out he'd be getting 3.5M in a year, and if he hits those numbers he'd be worth the extra cost. Mittelstadt was at a .34 clip after his first 3 years Dach .38 so dach scoring at better clip I’ll take DachsD over Mittelstdts any day. I understand the problems at the dot but I’m not nickel and dimming this kid when there is no need to. After his 1st 3 years he also signed a 1 year, $874k deal before signing a 2.5M/3yr deal after, so it's not a direct apples to apples comparison. If it was, then maybe we could argue Dach procuring something like 1.5-2M over a single season as opposed to 2.5-3M AAV over 2. My issue is not so much nickel and diming but taking into consideration that (a) he could be a flop and if so (b) we don't need him as dead cap if he is a flop irrespective of cap space. Now, if we look at what Dach is right now as the most he has proven, he's a sub-9G, sub-30P center with faceoff issues. His defense is decent but I wouldn't put him in the D-specialist range of Bolland or Kruger. Irrespective of his age, what's the breakover point between both duration and AAV when it comes to both him proving himself and him not proving himself? I think we can all agree that 2yrs should be fine. That should give him enough stability going into next season knowing that his career is not 100% on the line, but no so much that he can coast if that was his MO. Then when it comes to cost, since this is effectively a show-me deal it has to be movable in terms of AAV, and once we start approaching 3M AAV in my opinion that's getting too much for his proven output for raw guaranteed salary alone. In my opinion he'd have to be guaranteed above 10G/30P to command that given what he does both defensively and at the dot. However, if the AAV is offset with performance bonuses that would be ideal in my opinion. He performs, he gets his cash--some carrot to the stick, but the deal is short enough and the AAV itself is in the range of "show me." That's not nickle-and-diming, that's giving incentive. |
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Post by bigbarn27 on Jun 15, 2022 20:36:23 GMT -6
I hear where you are coming from Lord but there just are not many incentive based contracts as fans we would like them all to be performance based but agents don’t go for that. You are correct he is not close to super Dave D wise but he is top 3 on this team (not saying much) As I said before I would assume he comes in just under Kappo
If he is a bust I don't see it mattering if it’s 2 or 3 mil you won’t get much for him. You are correct 2 years will be fine. I see the 3 rd year being a bargain but your right he has not shown much to think that would be the case.
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Post by T-man2010 on Jun 16, 2022 6:57:06 GMT -6
Mittelstadt was at a .34 clip after his first 3 years Dach .38 so dach scoring at better clip I’ll take DachsD over Mittelstdts any day. I understand the problems at the dot but I’m not nickel and dimming this kid when there is no need to. After his 1st 3 years he also signed a 1 year, $874k deal before signing a 2.5M/3yr deal after, so it's not a direct apples to apples comparison. If it was, then maybe we could argue Dach procuring something like 1.5-2M over a single season as opposed to 2.5-3M AAV over 2. My issue is not so much nickel and diming but taking into consideration that (a) he could be a flop and if so (b) we don't need him as dead cap if he is a flop irrespective of cap space. Now, if we look at what Dach is right now as the most he has proven, he's a sub-9G, sub-30P center with faceoff issues. His defense is decent but I wouldn't put him in the D-specialist range of Bolland or Kruger. Irrespective of his age, what's the breakover point between both duration and AAV when it comes to both him proving himself and him not proving himself? I think we can all agree that 2yrs should be fine. That should give him enough stability going into next season knowing that his career is not 100% on the line, but no so much that he can coast if that was his MO. Then when it comes to cost, since this is effectively a show-me deal it has to be movable in terms of AAV, and once we start approaching 3M AAV in my opinion that's getting too much for his proven output for raw guaranteed salary alone. In my opinion he'd have to be guaranteed above 10G/30P to command that given what he does both defensively and at the dot. However, if the AAV is offset with performance bonuses that would be ideal in my opinion. He performs, he gets his cash--some carrot to the stick, but the deal is short enough and the AAV itself is in the range of "show me." That's not nickle-and-diming, that's giving incentive. To be fair, Bolland spent 4 years at London and then 2 years in the AHL, Norfolk/Rockford before coming up to the Hawks. So he did get time to develop where as Dach was improperly rushed into the lineup. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 16, 2022 8:58:41 GMT -6
I hear where you are coming from Lord but there just are not many incentive based contracts as fans we would like them all to be performance based but agents don’t go for that. You are correct he is not close to super Dave D wise but he is top 3 on this team (not saying much) As I said before I would assume he comes in just under Kappo If he is a bust I don't see it mattering if it’s 2 or 3 mil you won’t get much for him. You are correct 2 years will be fine. I see the 3 rd year being a bargain but your right he has not shown much to think that would be the case. Agents may not go for that, but what could he realistically command elsewhere given that he's a sub-10G player and a sub 30pt player--not to mention sub-40% at the dot for a center and his D is acceptable on a team without any D? I don't see many clubs trying to break down his door with 2nd contracts like Toews and Kane got. Dach isn't arbitration eligible. I think the 'hawks can qualify him and offer him a deal similar to what BigT and I have been suggesting. If he's offersheeted we can go from there--because up to $4.2M AAV he'll only get a 2nd rounder in compensation. I think if he is offersheeted the 'hawks will match up to some point--and I think that point will be significantly below $4.2M--I'd think no more that $3.5M but that's just my take and that is with our backs to the wall. If he turns out to be a true bust--like Sergei Samsonov, the $ amount will matter not so much for what we can get in return, but what can be buried. If he's paid 1.75M AAV, the club will only be on the hook for something like $625k--the rest is buried in the minors. If he's paid 3M that'll be almost $2M that has to be on the books. That could be the difference between moving him and not, or the difference between keeping him up in leiu of someone better (hypothetically), or not. The rest continues below. After his 1st 3 years he also signed a 1 year, $874k deal before signing a 2.5M/3yr deal after, so it's not a direct apples to apples comparison. If it was, then maybe we could argue Dach procuring something like 1.5-2M over a single season as opposed to 2.5-3M AAV over 2. My issue is not so much nickel and diming but taking into consideration that (a) he could be a flop and if so (b) we don't need him as dead cap if he is a flop irrespective of cap space. Now, if we look at what Dach is right now as the most he has proven, he's a sub-9G, sub-30P center with faceoff issues. His defense is decent but I wouldn't put him in the D-specialist range of Bolland or Kruger. Irrespective of his age, what's the breakover point between both duration and AAV when it comes to both him proving himself and him not proving himself? I think we can all agree that 2yrs should be fine. That should give him enough stability going into next season knowing that his career is not 100% on the line, but no so much that he can coast if that was his MO. Then when it comes to cost, since this is effectively a show-me deal it has to be movable in terms of AAV, and once we start approaching 3M AAV in my opinion that's getting too much for his proven output for raw guaranteed salary alone. In my opinion he'd have to be guaranteed above 10G/30P to command that given what he does both defensively and at the dot. However, if the AAV is offset with performance bonuses that would be ideal in my opinion. He performs, he gets his cash--some carrot to the stick, but the deal is short enough and the AAV itself is in the range of "show me." That's not nickle-and-diming, that's giving incentive. To be fair, Bolland spent 4 years at London and then 2 years in the AHL, Norfolk/Rockford before coming up to the Hawks. So he did get time to develop where as Dach was improperly rushed into the lineup. I'm not arguing that--I think we can all get on board with the fact that Dach was completely mishandled. I'm just saying the argument that he's "good on D" has to be tempered with an absolute view as opposed to a relative view. He might be 3rd on our team in terms of D, but then again our D sucks; how does he compare with the rest of the league? I think for us 'hawks fans Bolland or Kruger are a good example for a prototypical D-specialist center--even if they both were developed unlike Dach. So, how does Dach compare to them vs. their salary expectations coupled with cap inflation? Kruger took 2 sweetheart deals before capping out at a RCH over 3M, and as it stands with the exception of 2014 when he hit 20G, Kruger's O-numbers were similar to Dach's, plus he was better both defensively and at the dot. So if we're looking at this from an avenue of just the skill brought to the ice, Dach is worth less than $3M even taking cap inflation into consideration. That leaves paying for potential. How much are the 'hawks, or any other team, willing to pay for potential? I think it's a foregone conclusion that you have to pay something for potential, but how much? The precedent is there for him to take a sweetheart "show-me" deal. Hell, next season he's arbitration eligible. That could be incentive for him to take a 1 year deal and try to cash in. |
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Post by steamer on Jun 16, 2022 9:02:03 GMT -6
I hear where you are coming from Lord but there just are not many incentive based contracts as fans we would like them all to be performance based but agents don’t go for that. You are correct he is not close to super Dave D wise but he is top 3 on this team (not saying much) As I said before I would assume he comes in just under Kappo If he is a bust I don't see it mattering if it’s 2 or 3 mil you won’t get much for him. You are correct 2 years will be fine. I see the 3 rd year being a bargain but your right he has not shown much to think that would be the case. Agents may not go for that, but what could he realistically command elsewhere given that he's a sub-10G player and a sub 30pt player--not to mention sub-40% at the dot for a center and his D is acceptable on a team without any D? I don't see many clubs trying to break down his door with 2nd contracts like Toews and Kane got. Dach isn't arbitration eligible. I think the 'hawks can qualify him and offer him a deal similar to what BigT and I have been suggesting. If he's offersheeted we can go from there--because up to $4.2M AAV he'll only get a 2nd rounder in compensation. I think if he is offersheeted the 'hawks will match up to some point--and I think that point will be significantly below $4.2M--I'd think no more that $3.5M but that's just my take and that is with our backs to the wall. If he turns out to be a true bust--like Sergei Samsonov, the $ amount will matter not so much for what we can get in return, but what can be buried. If he's paid 1.75M AAV, the club will only be on the hook for something like $625k--the rest is buried in the minors. If he's paid 3M that'll be almost $2M that has to be on the books. That could be the difference between moving him and not, or the difference between keeping him up in leiu of someone better (hypothetically), or not. The rest continues below. To be fair, Bolland spent 4 years at London and then 2 years in the AHL, Norfolk/Rockford before coming up to the Hawks. So he did get time to develop where as Dach was improperly rushed into the lineup. I'm not arguing that--I think we can all get on board with the fact that Dach was completely mishandled. I'm just saying the argument that he's "good on D" has to be tempered with an absolute view as opposed to a relative view. He might be 3rd on our team in terms of D, but then again our D sucks; how does he compare with the rest of the league? I think for us 'hawks fans Bolland or Kruger are a good example for a prototypical D-specialist center--even if they both were developed unlike Dach. So, how does Dach compare to them vs. their salary expectations coupled with cap inflation? Kruger took 2 sweetheart deals before capping out at a RCH over 3M, and as it stands with the exception of 2014 when he hit 20G, Kruger's O-numbers were similar to Dach's, plus he was better both defensively and at the dot. So if we're looking at this from an avenue of just the skill brought to the ice, Dach is worth less than $3M even taking cap inflation into consideration. That leaves paying for potential. How much are the 'hawks, or any other team, willing to pay for potential? I think it's a foregone conclusion that you have to pay something for potential, but how much? The precedent is there for him to take a sweetheart "show-me" deal. Hell, next season he's arbitration eligible. That could be incentive for him to take a 1 year deal and try to cash in. Excellent analysis! |
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Post by T-man2010 on Jun 16, 2022 9:58:07 GMT -6
To be fair, Bolland spent 4 years at London and then 2 years in the AHL, Norfolk/Rockford before coming up to the Hawks. So he did get time to develop where as Dach was improperly rushed into the lineup. I'm not arguing that--I think we can all get on board with the fact that Dach was completely mishandled. I'm just saying the argument that he's "good on D" has to be tempered with an absolute view as opposed to a relative view. He might be 3rd on our team in terms of D, but then again our D sucks; how does he compare with the rest of the league?
I think for us 'hawks fans Bolland or Kruger are a good example for a prototypical D-specialist center--even if they both were developed unlike Dach. So, how does Dach compare to them vs. their salary expectations coupled with cap inflation? Kruger took 2 sweetheart deals before capping out at a RCH over 3M, and as it stands with the exception of 2014 when he hit 20G, Kruger's O-numbers were similar to Dach's, plus he was better both defensively and at the dot. So if we're looking at this from an avenue of just the skill brought to the ice, Dach is worth less than $3M even taking cap inflation into consideration. That leaves paying for potential. How much are the 'hawks, or any other team, willing to pay for potential? I think it's a foregone conclusion that you have to pay something for potential, but how much? The precedent is there for him to take a sweetheart "show-me" deal. Hell, next season he's arbitration eligible. That could be incentive for him to take a 1 year deal and try to cash in. That's my point. Which league are you comparing him too? Not fair to compare him to the NHL since he never developed yet. Bolland developed in juniors/AHL before his NHL time. Now maybe Dach developing against much better players than he would have will make him better eventually? Only time will tell. |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 16, 2022 13:35:35 GMT -6
I'm not arguing that--I think we can all get on board with the fact that Dach was completely mishandled. I'm just saying the argument that he's "good on D" has to be tempered with an absolute view as opposed to a relative view. He might be 3rd on our team in terms of D, but then again our D sucks; how does he compare with the rest of the league?
I think for us 'hawks fans Bolland or Kruger are a good example for a prototypical D-specialist center--even if they both were developed unlike Dach. So, how does Dach compare to them vs. their salary expectations coupled with cap inflation? Kruger took 2 sweetheart deals before capping out at a RCH over 3M, and as it stands with the exception of 2014 when he hit 20G, Kruger's O-numbers were similar to Dach's, plus he was better both defensively and at the dot. So if we're looking at this from an avenue of just the skill brought to the ice, Dach is worth less than $3M even taking cap inflation into consideration. That leaves paying for potential. How much are the 'hawks, or any other team, willing to pay for potential? I think it's a foregone conclusion that you have to pay something for potential, but how much? The precedent is there for him to take a sweetheart "show-me" deal. Hell, next season he's arbitration eligible. That could be incentive for him to take a 1 year deal and try to cash in. That's my point. Which league are you comparing him too? Not fair to compare him to the NHL since he never developed yet. Bolland developed in juniors/AHL before his NHL time. Now maybe Dach developing against much better players than he would have will make him better eventually? Only time will tell. For salary purposes you have to compare him to equivalent NHL'ers for a baseline salary comparison--same with every other player/prospect out there. The baseline for comparing what salary Dach should get, to say, Debrincat is going to be different because Debrincat in his first few seasons outperformed Dach in his first few seasons in almost every respect. When Debrincat inked his current deal he already put in a 40G year. Dach hasn't broken 10g in a season. You can pay a little extra to hedge your bets for future performances for a young kid, but not nearly as much as Stan did in the past (i.e. Panik). Ergo you can't really look at Dach and say, "oh he's not been developed properly--let's throw more money at him!" Even so, Bolland and Kruger taken at the point where they had similar NHL experience, developed or not, performed better than or equal to what Dach did. Bolland put up 19G before he signed a 3.375M AAV deal in 2010 dollars, as well as anchored 1C line--effectively I might add in all 3 zones. Kruger did about the same as Dach did (even though he was developed) and went on to sign a 1.28 AAV contract for 2 years. It doesn't matter that Kruger got developed and Dach wasn't. Kruger got adequate market value (and probably some more for being a cup winner). Why would Dach not being properly developed command him more salary? Betting on potential is what got Bowman the Beancounter in cap trouble in the 1st place. I don't think Davidson wants to repeat that. I can see him qualifying, then offering something like a 1.5-2M 2yr deal--bonus-laden or not. If he's offer sheeted they 'hawks may match depending on how much an offer sheet is--ever over $3M AAV simply because they might only get a 2nd rounder for his loss, and at that point there's a proven market for him. But since Dach is not arbitration eligible, what can he do otherwise if the 'hawks aren't offering much? Pull a Turris? Developed or not I don't really see any club that would try to tuck him in for much more than $3M AAV--he has an injury history and his numbers just aren't that good to justify more. |
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Post by squishy24 on Jun 16, 2022 14:41:40 GMT -6
That's my point. Which league are you comparing him too? Not fair to compare him to the NHL since he never developed yet. Bolland developed in juniors/AHL before his NHL time. Now maybe Dach developing against much better players than he would have will make him better eventually? Only time will tell. For salary purposes you have to compare him to equivalent NHL'ers for a baseline salary comparison--same with every other player/prospect out there. The baseline for comparing what salary Dach should get, to say, Debrincat is going to be different because Debrincat in his first few seasons outperformed Dach in his first few seasons in almost every respect. When Debrincat inked his current deal he already put in a 40G year. Dach hasn't broken 10g in a season. You can pay a little extra to hedge your bets for future performances for a young kid, but not nearly as much as Stan did in the past (i.e. Panik). Ergo you can't really look at Dach and say, "oh he's not been developed properly--let's throw more money at him!" Even so, Bolland and Kruger taken at the point where they had similar NHL experience, developed or not, performed better than or equal to what Dach did. Bolland put up 19G before he signed a 3.375M AAV deal in 2010 dollars, as well as anchored 1C line--effectively I might add in all 3 zones. Kruger did about the same as Dach did (even though he was developed) and went on to sign a 1.28 AAV contract for 2 years. It doesn't matter that Kruger got developed and Dach wasn't. Kruger got adequate market value (and probably some more for being a cup winner). Why would Dach not being properly developed command him more salary? Betting on potential is what got Bowman the Beancounter in cap trouble in the 1st place. I don't think Davidson wants to repeat that. I can see him qualifying, then offering something like a 1.5-2M 2yr deal-- bonus-laden or not. If he's offer sheeted they 'hawks may match depending on how much an offer sheet is--ever over $3M AAV simply because they might only get a 2nd rounder for his loss, and at that point there's a proven market for him. But since Dach is not arbitration eligible, what can he do otherwise if the 'hawks aren't offering much? Pull a Turris? Developed or not I don't really see any club that would try to tuck him in for much more than $3M AAV--he has an injury history and his numbers just aren't that good to justify more. ^ curious question, can he sign a contract with bonuses? I thought that was only for entry-levels. would it still apply in his next contract? (i really dont know and want to know) |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 16, 2022 15:04:12 GMT -6
For salary purposes you have to compare him to equivalent NHL'ers for a baseline salary comparison--same with every other player/prospect out there. The baseline for comparing what salary Dach should get, to say, Debrincat is going to be different because Debrincat in his first few seasons outperformed Dach in his first few seasons in almost every respect. When Debrincat inked his current deal he already put in a 40G year. Dach hasn't broken 10g in a season. You can pay a little extra to hedge your bets for future performances for a young kid, but not nearly as much as Stan did in the past (i.e. Panik). Ergo you can't really look at Dach and say, "oh he's not been developed properly--let's throw more money at him!" Even so, Bolland and Kruger taken at the point where they had similar NHL experience, developed or not, performed better than or equal to what Dach did. Bolland put up 19G before he signed a 3.375M AAV deal in 2010 dollars, as well as anchored 1C line--effectively I might add in all 3 zones. Kruger did about the same as Dach did (even though he was developed) and went on to sign a 1.28 AAV contract for 2 years. It doesn't matter that Kruger got developed and Dach wasn't. Kruger got adequate market value (and probably some more for being a cup winner). Why would Dach not being properly developed command him more salary? Betting on potential is what got Bowman the Beancounter in cap trouble in the 1st place. I don't think Davidson wants to repeat that. I can see him qualifying, then offering something like a 1.5-2M 2yr deal-- bonus-laden or not. If he's offer sheeted they 'hawks may match depending on how much an offer sheet is--ever over $3M AAV simply because they might only get a 2nd rounder for his loss, and at that point there's a proven market for him. But since Dach is not arbitration eligible, what can he do otherwise if the 'hawks aren't offering much? Pull a Turris? Developed or not I don't really see any club that would try to tuck him in for much more than $3M AAV--he has an injury history and his numbers just aren't that good to justify more. ^ curious question, can he sign a contract with bonuses? I thought that was only for entry-levels. would it still apply in his next contract? (i really dont know and want to know) Okay, nix the idea... Checked on CF, he has to be on an entry level, on a 35+, or returning from a LTIR spending 100 days on it and playing over 400 games. Mea culpa...but would have been a good idea. |
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 16, 2022 17:29:17 GMT -6
^ curious question, can he sign a contract with bonuses? I thought that was only for entry-levels. would it still apply in his next contract? (i really dont know and want to know) Okay, nix the idea... Checked on CF, he has to be on an entry level, on a 35+, or returning from a LTIR spending 100 days on it and playing over 400 games. Mea culpa...but would have been a good idea. To bad, then yeah offer 1.5-2mill per for 2yrs. He's in no position to demand more, ended the season on the IR and his points and faceoff percentage is bad for a #3 player. |
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Post by hsbob on Jun 17, 2022 8:59:17 GMT -6
We all know there were some legitimate reasons for mediocre at best development so far that were out of the kid's control but this year saw a full camp and a healthy season until the 70 game mark......and it also saw regression unfortunately.
I acknowledge those legitimate reasons like age,injuries and poor development decisions(DUMBASSERY) all the time but does anyone find 7 5 0n 5 goals and 11 5 on 5 assists acceptable for any but the cheapest bottom line forward? The FO regression(from already awful #'s) was the most concerning for me because as depressing as it sounds......sub 40% just isn't a starting center in the NHL and we all know that too!
They say you can't teach size and you know what.....you certainly can't teach age either and the kid has both. What he has to realize now,is NEXT YEAR is the most important year of his young life. I'll look for improvement in every area except defense which has been acceptable but can he produce offensively and still defend well? Can a kid with his frame fucking will himself over 40% at the dot? If not,why not?
Strome was kicked around like a God dammed dog but he willed himself to 52% this year,on the same team,with the same coaching staff......GOTTA WANT IT!
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 18, 2022 13:20:10 GMT -6
We all know there were some legitimate reasons for mediocre at best development so far that were out of the kid's control but this year saw a full camp and a healthy season until the 70 game mark......and it also saw regression unfortunately. I acknowledge those legitimate reasons like age,injuries and poor development decisions(DUMBASSERY) all the time but does anyone find 7 5 0n 5 goals and 11 5 on 5 assists acceptable for any but the cheapest bottom line forward? The FO regression(from already awful #'s) was the most concerning for me because as depressing as it sounds......sub 40% just isn't a starting center in the NHL and we all know that too! They say you can't teach size and you know what.....you certainly can't teach age either and the kid has both. What he has to realize now,is NEXT YEAR is the most important year of his young life. I'll look for improvement in every area except defense which has been acceptable but can he produce offensively and still defend well? Can a kid with his frame fucking will himself over 40% at the dot? If not,why not? Strome was kicked around like a God dammed dog but he willed himself to 52% this year,on the same team,with the same coaching staff......GOTTA WANT IT! Exactly. The sentiment that he was completely mishandled goes into giving him a show-me deal at fair market value for a couple of years without questioning it. Other players who were developed and put up his numbers would probably get a league minimum deal and be a tweener. You can't teach size, but you sure as hell can teach how to play with size. Dach still has time to learn but he could also be one of many players in the past who had size but failed to play with it effectively. Your point of "next year is the most important year of his life" is spot on. |
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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 18, 2022 19:44:50 GMT -6
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Post by OldTimeHawky on Jun 18, 2022 20:38:03 GMT -6
Great read and cool pics. Colton and Kirby truly love the game and hearing how attentive they were at Oiler games sounds like Toews when he was a kid. There's also a great read after Kirby's draft when Colton talked about his bro and how competitive they are. Hopefully CD will help spark KDs offensive game, especially if the little bro's outscoring him. |
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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 18, 2022 21:07:53 GMT -6
Great read and cool pics. Colton and Kirby truly love the game and hearing how attentive they were at Oiler games sounds like Toews when he was a kid. There's also a great read after Kirby's draft when Colton talked about his bro and how competitive they are. Hopefully CD will help spark KDs offensive game, especially if the little bro's outscoring him. if maturity (or lack of it) is kirby's problem, i'm hoping having his little brother in camp or on the team will help. it's hard for me to explain but what i mean is it might make kirby want to be "a good influence" on him. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 21:22:21 GMT -6
Thanks for that. It’s a good read. Unfortunately the ice doesn’t freeze much for us down here in the dirty souf. But it has the past couple years for about 2 weeks. And the kids got out and loved it. Especially when we were on Covid lockdown. The kids took full advantage of the 2 weeks we were gifted on the ice. All our rinks were shut down here. So the ponds and rivers were the best place. We haven’t had skate-able ice in over a decade. It was perfect timing. Reading and seeing the Dach bros out there was awesome. Some of my best memories were on the ponds. Now my son too. I doubt we get 2 years in a row again. But as a Canadian, it doesn’t get much better than hitting the pond with your buds and watching your dad get drunk on the shores by a fire. Thanks for posting and a solid post GT!!! |
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Post by galaxytrash on Jun 18, 2022 21:48:38 GMT -6
But as a Canadian, it doesn’t get much better than hitting the pond with your buds and watching your dad get drunk on the shores by a fire. i only remember skating with a stick in my hands and a puck on the ice just once in my life. it was outdoor ice (proper rink) in maybe 1965 or '66. i remember the shack with the coal stove better than the skating. i knew it was a coal stove because i remember the smell. funny how some things stick with you. i think i've skated on a lake or a river as a wee lad but i can't rightly remember where. maybe i haven't. i've spent many many hours on the ice ice-fishing though. i can say from my experience that there aren't too many more unsettling feelings as when you hear the ice crack on one side of the lake and the crack seems to pass right under you across to the other side. it's just a weird sensation but not a pleasant one, for me at least. |
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Post by BigT on Jun 18, 2022 23:29:16 GMT -6
But as a Canadian, it doesn’t get much better than hitting the pond with your buds and watching your dad get drunk on the shores by a fire. i only remember skating with a stick in my hands and a puck on the ice just once in my life. it was outdoor ice (proper rink) in maybe 1965 or '66. i remember the shack with the coal stove better than the skating. i knew it was a coal stove because i remember the smell. funny how some things stick with you. i think i've skated on a lake or a river as a wee lad but i can't rightly remember where. maybe i haven't. i've spent many many hours on the ice ice-fishing though. i can say from my experience that there aren't too many more unsettling feelings as when you hear the ice crack on one side of the lake and the crack seems to pass right under you across to the other side. it's just a weird sensation but not a pleasant one, for me at least. That crack is always unpopular! I remember as a kid. The ice was always frozen, year after year. Maybe not for long, but we’d get a solid 3 weeks. Nowadays we’re lucky to get below zero. Our winters are mostly damp, rainy and 4 months of grey. The kind of cold that seeps into your bones. In Celsius it’s usually 1-2 during the day, then maybe -3 at night. Most days are rainy and 5-7. Or 35-40F. I’m sure the fine folk in Chicago get pretty much what we do. Maybe a bit cooler over there I’ve noticed. But just not cold enough to freeze ice for any extended period. Might be a layer of 1/2” ice. Also I’ve noticed that when it does get super cold, the sun is always shining. And the humidity dies. Unfortunately that humidity kills us in the summer. It’s gonna be 99F on Tuesday without the humidex. So it’ll feel like 110F or more. I’m sure it’s brutal right now in Thailand. However, a wise man once said you don’t have to shovel heat! I know many don’t understand the humidity. I was in Calgary/Banff last summer for a tourney for my son and a visit to my cousin who has lived out there for 15 years now. It was 33C. And to me it wasn’t hot at all. No humidity to bog you down. I didn’t think it was bad but the Albertans were dying. We landed back in Windsor only to be greeted by a gawd dam tornado 1/2 kilometre from the runway. Humid, stormy, 33C + 5C humidex. Felt like 106F. Just walking makes you change your shirt. I believe that the temp of the Great Lakes, especially us down at the very bottom, is what drives our temps in the winter. Lake Erie and St Clair are very warm in the winter, and it’s been driving the cold away. I do enjoy a warmer winter. But the grey sublime 3-4 months makes it depressing, but above freezing!!! |
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Post by damon3dog on Jun 21, 2022 10:35:01 GMT -6
the new GM is not tied to DACH as his #3 overall pick , so no facing deal is necessary ! base it solely on performance, and with his poor numbers so far, it is easily affordable if he busts out after this season.
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Post by steamer on Jun 21, 2022 13:47:34 GMT -6
I think he needs a deal that can be rewarding if he makes the effort to improve his game. Purely based on scoring is probably not the best measure since if D-cat and/or Kane depart, it will be difficult for him to generate big numbers. But he has to improve at the dot and maybe there are other measurables. But just to award him 4 years @ $3mm or better is once again sending him the wrong message.
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Kirby Dach
Jun 21, 2022 14:27:04 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by vadarx on Jun 21, 2022 14:27:04 GMT -6
I think he needs a deal that can be rewarding if he makes the effort to improve his game. Purely based on scoring is probably not the best measure since if D-cat and/or Kane depart, it will be difficult for him to generate big numbers. But he has to improve at the dot and maybe there are other measurables. But just to award him 4 years @ $3mm or better is once again sending him the wrong message. I'd bet a fair amount of coin that he wouldn't accept a deal for 3m for 4 years... |
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Post by Nikos on Jun 21, 2022 14:55:35 GMT -6
I think he needs a deal that can be rewarding if he makes the effort to improve his game. Purely based on scoring is probably not the best measure since if D-cat and/or Kane depart, it will be difficult for him to generate big numbers. But he has to improve at the dot and maybe there are other measurables. But just to award him 4 years @ $3mm or better is once again sending him the wrong message. I'd bet a fair amount of coin that he wouldn't accept a deal for 3m for 4 years... If he were not the 3rd overall pick, he be lucky to get $1M to $1.5M per year for that type of production. He needs a prove it deal IMO. |
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Kirby Dach
Jun 21, 2022 15:53:37 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by vadarx on Jun 21, 2022 15:53:37 GMT -6
I'd bet a fair amount of coin that he wouldn't accept a deal for 3m for 4 years... If he were not the 3rd overall pick, he be lucky to get $1M to $1.5M per year for that type of production. He needs a prove it deal IMO. I agree, but he was and he (and his agent) will surely expect to paid for his "potential". |
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Post by Nikos on Jun 21, 2022 16:32:51 GMT -6
If he were not the 3rd overall pick, he be lucky to get $1M to $1.5M per year for that type of production. He needs a prove it deal IMO. I agree, but he was and he (and his agent) will surely expect to paid for his "potential". Sure they will and do not blame them Var, but where is the "skin" in the game (contract) for Dach? |
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 21, 2022 20:56:09 GMT -6
If he were not the 3rd overall pick, he be lucky to get $1M to $1.5M per year for that type of production. He needs a prove it deal IMO. I agree, but he was and he (and his agent) will surely expect to paid for his "potential". The hawks can qualify him, then offer him a deal they can live with (like an aforementioned 1.5-2M AAV over 2 years), and if he doesn't like it the best he can hope fir is to be offer sheeted since he's not arbitration-eligible. If he is offer-sheeted the 'hawks will do whatever they want to do (I think they would match to about $3.5M simply because the compensation is so low for failing to match), but I have a very hard time believing that any of the 31 other clubs will offer him anything upwards of $3M based on his performance thus far. Seriously though, what's he and his agent going to do if he doesn't like the terms the 'hawks give him? He can't go to arbitration yet. If he doesn't get an offer sheet is he really going to hold out? To my knowledge the 'hawks own his rights in the NHL until he's 25, so if he doesn't like, say, a $1.75AAV/2yr Show-me deal, is he really going to hold out until or past December and possibly try to play in Europe for a ton less? Seriously. The 'hawks are in rebuild mode. Losing an underperforming high draft center to Europe shouldn't phase the 'hawks in the slightest since they'll want as high of a draft pick as possible in 2023. In Dach's situation, he has not shown any of his "potential" since the play-in. His numbers have dropped and he's been oft-injured. He's shown some decent Defensive IQ but the rest of his game has been anything from mediocre to bad. He and his agent should also know that the 'hawks are going to shed a ton of cap soon. They should know that if Dach signs a show-me deal and completely wows the 'hawks and becomes a true top-2 big-bodied center, the 'hawks will have the motivation *and* wherewithal to pay him a good chunk of change as a core player--if he can become one. I really don't think any other clubs out there are clamoring for Dach--and if so they might take him on as a project--and any competent GM doesn't overpay for projects. |
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Post by nighbor on Jun 22, 2022 17:12:51 GMT -6
Dach will sign a similar deal to what Strome signed. 2 yrs at 3M per. Strome was drafted in 2015. After the draft Strome split his time between the OHL 91 games AHL 50 games and NHL 28 games before his first full NHL season in 2018/19. The first 2 years of Strome's ELC did not justify a contract of 3M and at the time of the trade at his PPG average in Arizona he was on pace for a 19 point season. One good season playing with two superstars shouldn't makeup for his underperforming earlier in his contract. Dach is considered a bust here and before Strome came here he was considered a bust there.
I am hoping that these two busts one day hang outside with the other ones.
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Post by LordKOTL on Jun 22, 2022 18:42:59 GMT -6
Dach will sign a similar deal to what Strome signed. 2 yrs at 3M per. Strome was drafted in 2015. After the draft Strome split his time between the OHL 91 games AHL 50 games and NHL 28 games before his first full NHL season in 2018/19. The first 2 years of Strome's ELC did not justify a contract of 3M and at the time of the trade at his PPG average in Arizona he was on pace for a 19 point season. One good season playing with two superstars shouldn't makeup for his underperforming earlier in his contract. Dach is considered a bust here and before Strome came here he was considered a bust there. I am hoping that these two busts one day hang outside with the other ones. I would seriously question KD if he offered Dach $3M. The only reason Strome got $3M is because he was overpaid on a show-me deal. Strom should have not gotten that $3M for 2yr. He might have finally showed us this past season (and I can't complain about it), but Dach should get $1-2M/2yr max. If he doesn't like it let him try out the offer-sheet market. |
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